PDA

View Full Version : Enemy fly forever with smoking engine? An Idea!!



Abbuzze
05-11-2005, 09:59 AM
I think we all know this situation, you hit the enemy and his engine is smoking, but no one is bailing in this situation.
The pilot stay in his plane till the engine will stop or you real shot him, or the "worst" case he land like nothing has happend.

I allways dislike this, cause this is not realsistic in my eyes. While I wrote an answer to another thread I had an Idea.
Real pilots don´t have only problems with a smoking engine cause of the reduced view, but also cause the smoke find the way into the cockpit, taking away your breath, and will knock you out after some time!

Open your canopy is not realy a solution of this problem, noone like 80?C hot oil in this face...

So forcing a Pilot to bail- we need a slowly "blackout", simulating the fading senses, cause of the poisening smoke in the cockpit- maybe a simple timer in the code would be enough to create this effect...

What do you think??

SeaFireLIV
05-11-2005, 10:09 AM
Hmmm... Not a bad idea.

I think what needs to be done first is find out what actually happens to a pilot when his engine`s smoking badly. We know it`ll be hard to see, but what are the other effects? Would he black out quickly/slowly - not at all? With cockpit open or not open, perhaps the oil would not reach him?

Once we have collected actual accounts of what has happened in real life WWII circumstances then perhaps Oleg can incorporate the most common ailments.

(P.s. get better quick, Oleg!)

CUJO_1970
05-11-2005, 11:57 AM
I think both of these posts are excellent.

Dimensionaut_
05-11-2005, 12:33 PM
Maybe it happens too often in IL-2 and also that the engine holds it too long, but I do have reports that it also happened in reallife.

In the only big dogfight over the Netherlands the Dutch claimed 3 kills. One forcelanded on their airfield, the other two were thought to have crashed into the sea.
Though the Germans only reported one missing.

A strange mystery and I know no books that clear it up. Some say the pilots even lied.

Until I got my hands on a little book one of the pilots has released in 1945. It tells a little bit of the stories of all pilots. This book describes how the two 109's were seen smoking and leaving the area. Due to the smoke they thought they would eventually crash. But actual records show both did make it home, damaged, but safely.

And about the oil: You figure that noone wants that in his face, true. But did you figure that the pilots do wear glases and gloves and also had an oxygenmask in most cases? They do protect from the warm oil. I do have a piece of video of an RAF 322 sqn pilot who's spitfire was damaged and totally covered with oil and dirt since he flew too close to a V-1 bomb he was shooting down. He flew home with open canopy.

So, even from only Dutch history (who did not fly in such big numbers as many other countries) I can name a few examples that counter this theory. I'm sure there are a lot more.

It is also a well known practice where pilots tried to stop fire by highspeed dives.

Abbuzze
05-11-2005, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
Maybe it happens too often in IL-2 and also that the engine holds it too long, but I do have reports that it also happened in reallife.

In the only big dogfight over the Netherlands the Dutch claimed 3 kills. One forcelanded on their airfield, the other two were thought to have crashed into the sea.
Though the Germans only reported one missing.

A strange mystery and I know no books that clear it up. Some say the pilots even lied.

Until I got my hands on a little book one of the pilots has released in 1945. It tells a little bit of the stories of all pilots. This book describes how the two 109's were seen smoking and leaving the area. Due to the smoke they thought they would eventually crash. But actual records show both did make it home, damaged, but safely.

And about the oil: You figure that noone wants that in his face, true. But did you figure that the pilots do wear glases and gloves and also had an oxygenmask in most cases? They do protect from the warm oil. I do have a piece of video of an RAF 322 sqn pilot who's spitfire was damaged and totally covered with oil and dirt since he flew too close to a V-1 bomb he was shooting down. He flew home with open canopy.

So, even from only Dutch history (who did not fly in such big numbers as many other countries) I can name a few examples that counter this theory. I'm sure there are a lot more.

It is also a well known practice where pilots tried to stop fire by highspeed dives.


You are right of course, it would make sense to conect this with a random generator, for the posibility of smoke in the cockpit or not, or eben better calculate it with the DM!

For the three dutch kills with just one lost, there are a lot of explanations. A very interesting Book is written by Ring & Shores is "Fighters over the desert", it´s a kind of diary, pointing out claimed kills and losts. The authors uses documents of both sides.
After reading that book all the discussions about overclaming left a bad aftertaste for me, it´s interesting how "overclaming" happens, sometimes the stories are real strange!
A german pilot once claimed a Beaufighter, it was going down close to Tobruk with thick black smoke came out of the belly and it went down vertical, there were wittness for this scene so he got the kill, but the Beau made it home, the ammo was on fire, also signal rockets, but the navigator was able to put the fire out and they fly home over the wavetops...
Once a british pilot saw a 109 behind the Hurri of a friend close and firing, he pressed his Hurri behind both in a tight turn, pulling lead and fired, then he saw a smoking planes passing him right in front, and went down in flames.
Another Hurripilot saw him firing and also the vertical diving plane, so he got the kill, but his friend was MIA.
Also the 109 Pilots claimd a kill, without a loss, so the smoking plane that passed the Hurricans front was another Hurricane! Both pilots british and german got a kill, noone was lieing... both believed what they told after they landed.

For the oil, correct that glasses, oxygenmask and gloves protect no question, but I also read that pilots did´t drop the canopy for this cause, and also keep in mind, diesel for example get flamable at 56?C, so maybe the wind is cooling down the oil a bit, but siting in a smoking plane, coverd with hot oil, an open canopy and posibility of an engine that can catch fire and set me on fire too - phew, not my favorite chair! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The stories about putting of fire in highspeed dives, yes pilots did it, but planes are made of lightmetall, and this metalls have the characteristic to catch fire if they get to hot! (With the increasing use in cars this is a problem for fireman now!) So going down in a burning plane, maybe with structural damdage, the fast airstream maybe also can force the fire and lead to a structural failure, cause it melt or starting to buring - the problem is, no pilot who maybe saw the alloy catching fire ever had the possibility to tell someone about this. Maybe a specialict know more about such things...

Smoke in the cockpit sometimes even killed very good pilots, just remember Marseille.

p1ngu666
05-11-2005, 05:04 PM
think oil has a higher flash point, but i dont know for sure

seafire nice to see u about, where u been old chap? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
me and painter have been abit worried about u...

Abbuzze
05-11-2005, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
think oil has a higher flash point, but i dont know for sure



First all, don´t misunderstand me, it would be silly if this would happens everytime you are hit and the engine is smoking! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The 56?C are from a german website, diesel is nothing more than heating oil, with more tax, at least here in germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I have no value for lube, but I think it should be similar, but maybe someone knows more.

Cragger
05-11-2005, 07:27 PM
Motor oil has a flashpoint of 180C to 200+C depending on synthetic, parrafin content, weight, and viscosity, and additives.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-11-2005, 08:40 PM
I like the idea of smoke tied into the DM that would affect visibility and hamper pilot performance but in many cases I don't think it would be much of a factor. As has been mentioned many pilots found ways to land aircraft with siezed or smoking engines in salvagable condition. Although it would be cool I don't think it would have much of an effect on game play.

F16_Sulan
05-11-2005, 08:45 PM
I think the idea the first post suggests is very interesting!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Good idea!!!

But I guess it should be different for different planes (as someone else mentioned). I would believe that engine-smoke/oil splatter and stuff would be a more serious problem for a single engined fighter, than say a P-38 or so...
But it would be really cool, if done reasonably realistic/historical.

p1ngu666
05-11-2005, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
think oil has a higher flash point, but i dont know for sure



First all, don´t misunderstand me, it would be silly if this would happens everytime you are hit and the engine is smoking! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The 56?C are from a german website, diesel is nothing more than heating oil, with more tax, at least here in germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I have no value for lube, but I think it should be similar, but maybe someone knows more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

did a google and found hte same, the odd thing tho is thats a really low temp to go up by itself, theres hotter places around teh world http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

think the effect of oil was often to paint the canopee black all over or nearly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

73GIAP_Milan
05-12-2005, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
think oil has a higher flash point, but i dont know for sure



First all, don´t misunderstand me, it would be silly if this would happens everytime you are hit and the engine is smoking! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The 56?C are from a german website, diesel is nothing more than heating oil, with more tax, at least here in germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I have no value for lube, but I think it should be similar, but maybe someone knows more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

think the effect of oil was often to paint the canopee black all over or nearly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would'n that be dependent on the severeness of the oilleak?
I can imagine that a slight puncture by shrapnel would slowly paint the screen grey/black greasy as the oil is dispersed by the air against the windscreen.
If the oiltank is punched a big hole then i'd say it gushes most of it out or atleast cover the windscreen almost instantly..

I loved the way they did it in B17 flying fortress where the windscreen would slowly become increasingly black stained in the fighters.
Not the effect we have with il2 of instant black dots on the screen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

p1ngu666
05-12-2005, 07:55 AM
i think the oil sticks and doesnt disperse, maybe sometimes but from pics and accounts its just solid black...

also with a oilpipe it would be pumped out at, if the tank is hit it would be sucked out...

NorrisMcWhirter
05-12-2005, 11:09 AM
Hi,

It's a good idea. While they are at it, they can model pilot fatigue, too. It shouldn't be too hard to decrease stick force in response to the sum of the stick force that has been applied by the virtual pilot over the last 5 mins, for example.

Then again..

Norris

Dimensionaut_
05-13-2005, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:

For the three dutch kills with just one lost, there are a lot of explanations. A very interesting Book is written by Ring & Shores is "Fighters over the desert", it´s a kind of diary, pointing out claimed kills and losts. The authors uses documents of both sides.
After reading that book all the discussions about overclaming left a bad aftertaste for me, it´s interesting how "overclaming" happens, sometimes the stories are real strange!


I know that overclaiming can have several reasons, maybe plain lying to the strange mistakes you mention. But I do not want to discuss overclaiming, but the fact that in real life aircraft did make it home even though they were smoking badly.
I just mention one event where I DO have records from both sides and a rare very old book that tells the stories of the pilots. That book was released right after the war and written during the war, so even before things were researched.
The pilots clearly state to see the two aircraft smoking and leaving for home (back to Germany). But because they smoked that bad and had to fly from the west cost of the Netherlands all the way back to Germany they expected them never to make it back home. German records clearly state that all aircraft but one came back to their base. And that one aircraft is the aircraft of Ro***** of whom is known that he bellied in on De Kooij airfield, captured and transported to Canada to be a prisoner of war for the rest of WW2. So, there is no discussion possible what strange things went on. The pilots tell themselves they made an assumption (smoke + big distance = won't get home) and claimed the kill on that assumption.

And I used the example since it has some parallels with the posts above to claim some things, while real life events show that it does not allways have to be that way. We all know pictures of heavily damaged bombers even a Wildcat with half a wing and an F-15 with one wing completely torn off, that were able to get back home...
So, it's not that simple that a smoking aircraft will allways crash or the pilot will faint or even die due to the smoke.

I do realize that the thread is put up since it is really frustrating to see another aircraft escape heavily smoking. But I don't think that it's the reason to add a feature to let the pilot sufficate from smoke or burn by oil when he opens the canopy. On the other hand I do agree that a heavily smoking aircraft could crash a bit faster, but just by means that are allready there like an engine cut due to the damage. That is why I started that it happens a bit too much in FB that smoking aircraft keep flying.

SeaFireLIV
05-13-2005, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:

seafire nice to see u about, where u been old chap? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
me and painter have been abit worried about u...

Don`t worry. Things are getting back up to speed, thankfully. I`ll be contacting you (and painter plus the other guys soon-ish). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
05-13-2005, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

seafire nice to see u about, where u been old chap? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
me and painter have been abit worried about u...

Don`t worry. Things are getting back up to speed, thankfully. I`ll be contacting you (and painter plus the other guys soon-ish). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

good good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif