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JBCool
04-23-2010, 11:12 AM
Hello,

I was thinking about purchasing AC2, but first, I was wondering if the game contains anti-Catholic sentiment?

Thx

Murcuseo
04-23-2010, 11:20 AM
Both titles open with a disclaimer...


Inspired by historical events and characters. This work of fiction was designed, developed, and produced by a multicultural team of various religious faiths and beliefs.

I couldn't tell you if it contains anti catholic sentiment but of course whether or not you enjoy the story is based on how easily offended you might be.. I suggest you watch some of the online videos and read up on the story... decide for yourself!

Assassin's Creed II (http://assassinscreed.uk.ubi.com/assassins-creed-2/#/home/7336/)

Cjail
04-23-2010, 11:43 AM
No anti-Catholic mesage at all; buy it without worries!

BodoFragins
04-23-2010, 11:49 AM
It basically says that there is no god, but like Robson19822009 posted, its fiction. Although they make the Catholic Church look evil, it really did have corrupt people in it's history (just like everything else).

So, as long as you don't put any real weight on the story, then no.

El_Sjietah
04-23-2010, 12:29 PM
No more so than AC1.

shimpaku
04-23-2010, 01:03 PM
Well, there is no mistaking (in my mind) that the story line somewhat dispels Christianity as a whole as being nothing more than smoke and mirrors and that Jesus was nothing more than a con artist who used the Piece of Eden to his advantage.

I'm a practicing Roman Catholic myself, but one has to keep in mind that this is just a game. Nothing more and nothing less. I also enjoyed both of the movies based on Dan Brown's books which, in someways, attacked the church to some extent with all of its collective and inaccurate falsehoods. Once again, we are simply dealing with a fictitious story. Bottom line, if one were to let a video game, such as AC, influence or believe that it is in any way shape or form based on historical fact that person would have to have the I.Q of an egg shell. I'm not in any way directing my last statement to the OP, but simply making a general statement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JBCool
04-23-2010, 01:37 PM
Thank you all for your replies.

I think I'll pass on AC 2. Dan Brown is allegorical to anti-Catholicism and since his name was mentioned in your responses, I will assume that the game follows in his "artistic" footsteps.

So the unvarnished answer to my original question is; "Yes." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Pax

El_Sjietah
04-23-2010, 02:00 PM
If that's your criteria than I suppose you're right. It's a shame you can't see past that though. It really is only the pope that's portrait as pure evil and the pope in question was a corrupt pig in reality as well. Everything else relating to catholisism is only vague hints that remotely brush the surface of what catholisism is about.

JohnConnor2012
04-23-2010, 02:27 PM
Not sure what the Church's own view is on the pontificate of Alexander IV. Certainly his portrayal here owes more to Martin Luther's caricature than real history, which acknowledges his simony, nepotism and suchlike worldliness but also that it was probably necessary to survive Renaissance Italian politics.

I suspect that if there had been a more powerful figure in 15th century Italy for Ezio to end up assassinating than the Pope, then that other one would've been for it instead and presented as badly.

Bear in mind too that the secret societies--anathematised by the Church--get a similarly raw deal though, as does Alexander IV's prime local opponent, Savanarola, a much saner, braver and more orthodox man in RL than the game presents.

Above all, remember AC2 is only a fiction and a highly enjoyable one. I wouldn't not buy it just because the story it tells isn't 100% the one you want to hear.

JBCool
04-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Forgive me for not investigating the "story" more in the first place.

Upon doing so, it would seem that there is no finer example of anti-Catholicism in the gaming world, than that of AC 2. 'Artistic license' some would say.

I'm not here to start an argument. I'm sorry for taking up your time.

Murcuseo
04-23-2010, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by JBCool:
Forgive me for not investigating the "story" more in the first place.

Upon doing so, it would seem that there is no finer example of anti-Catholicism in the gaming world, than that of AC 2. 'Artistic license' some would say.

I'm not here to start an argument. I'm sorry for taking up your time.

You asked a legitimate question that was relevent to your beliefs so you have nothing to apologise for, no matter what you say on this forum you're likely to invoke(no pun intended) some kind of argumentative reaction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

shimpaku
04-23-2010, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by JBCool:
Forgive me for not investigating the "story" more in the first place.

Upon doing so, it would seem that there is no finer example of anti-Catholicism in the gaming world, than that of AC 2. 'Artistic license' some would say.

I'm not here to start an argument. I'm sorry for taking up your time.

Well, actually you did investigate the “story” by posting your question here and I’m happy to hear that you got the answer you were looking for.
I had absolutely no idea what the game was about until I got to the end albeit I played AC2 before I played AC1. At the end of both AC1 and AC2 it admittedly did take me aback a bit as to its premise although I then just shook my head and laughed at the total absurdity of it all. I simply played through both games as I enjoyed everything about the game play other than its underlying story which, as said, I find ridiculous beyond comprehension.

With that said, I for one, applaud you in standing by your moralistic decision in not purchasing this game nor do I see how anyone could rightfully argue with some ones personal beliefs for not doing so.

Hey….there are a multitude of other games out there to be had so pick one that you feel comfortable with. As for the idea of taking anyone’s time up that is what a forum site is all about. As for the little arguments that may possibly arise that is somewhat inherent to about any forum site. Sometimes good…and at times, not so good. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Engioc
04-23-2010, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by JBCool:
Hello,

I was thinking about purchasing AC2, but first, I was wondering if the game contains anti-Catholic sentiment?

Thx

I would say yes, but I'd also say it contains anti religious statements too. I dont see that as being bad though because I dont believe its really anti anything, it just questions our beliefs, it doesn't say its good or bad, it simply puts forward questions. To an extent it also questions non believers. I guess simply it makes you wonder which is right, and the conclusion is really up to you.

Well that how it seemed to me anyway, AC1 and AC2 are the same in that regard anyway. Maybe rather than questioning religion it also simply questions the PEOPLE we put our faith in, how well they perhaps represent God. After all its not religion that causes conflicts, its just people using it as their excuse, bad/corrupt people. I'd say its fine to buy AC2 provided you can handle having a few questions asked about your beliefs, whether they be catholic or something else.

Its up you in the end though, plenty of other games to choose from if you don't like the story or AC.

TheLeoCrow
04-24-2010, 01:10 AM
Well, i can't really think of any recent game that isn't somewhat antichristan in one way or another. Take Prince of Persia for example. Sandmonsters, Empresses of time, countless deaths, magic, dark gods etc. This game shows how evil people are attracted to power. It doesn't oppose religion, it opposes blind faith in evil people.

In short, it may attack the church (which doesn't need a game to tell us that it's full of corruption) but not the religion

PS. I strongly suggest you read Contact by Carl Sagan. Or watch the movie but the book is preferable

Meleth1977
04-24-2010, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Engioc:

Maybe rather than questioning religion it also simply questions the PEOPLE we put our faith in, how well they perhaps represent God. After all its not religion that causes conflicts, its just people using it as their excuse, bad/corrupt people.


I think you hit your head on the nail there (as we say in Sweden) and I agree completely with you. I wouldn't say the game itself criticizes Christianity at all but rather the evil and corrupt people that use religion to gain personal power, riches and control.

The main character, Ezio, is clearly catholic and says a prayer every time he assassinates a main target, to sort of send them off in peace with themselves and God.

And personally I think you're missing out on a beautiful game if you chose not to play it. Maybe you could borrow it from someone and try it out before deciding on buying it?

katz_bg
04-25-2010, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by BodoFragins:
It basically says that there is no god, but like Robson19822009 posted, its fiction. Although they make the Catholic Church look evil, it really did have corrupt people in it's history (just like everything else).

So, as long as you don't put any real weight on the story, then no. They don't need to make the Catholic Church look evil. The Vatican already does a pretty good job at that.

shimpaku
04-25-2010, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by katz_bg:
They don't need to make the Catholic Church look evil. The Vatican already does a pretty good job at that.

I had the strongest feeling that posts such as yours would eventually turn up. Seems as though I was right. A simple question asked by the OP, which was answered quite well with various opinions as to the GAME, and now.....this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Abeonis
04-26-2010, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by JBCool:
Hello,

I was thinking about purchasing AC2, but first, I was wondering if the game contains anti-Catholic sentiment?

Thx

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that the game contains no "anti-catholic" sentiments whatsoever. The fact that you based your decision not to buy this game off of the fact that shimpaku mentioned Dan brown in his post is, to be honest, ridiculous.

Granted, the game does, as shimpaku put it, "dispels Christianity as a whole as being nothing more than smoke and mirrors", but in that regard you could claim the game is anti-Islamic, anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, anti-Animism... the game doesn't insult the religion, or say that catholics are stupid for their beliefs, or anything like that. In fact, the closest the game comes to portraying the Catholic curch in bad light is by having Rodrigo Borgia become Pope, and by all historical accounts, he was a bit of a **** anyways.

Personally, I'd recommend that you do buy this game, and base your decision off of first-hand experience, rather than the opinions of anybody here, even my own.


Originally posted by JBCool:
I think I'll pass on AC 2. Dan Brown is allegorical to anti-Catholicism and since his name was mentioned in your responses, I will assume that the game follows in his "artistic" footsteps.

So the unvarnished answer to my original question is; "Yes."

As I mentioned above, don't base your decision off of the fact that someone simply mentioned a controversial authors name in their post, that's pretty much the same as saying a staunchly anti-Nazi essay is actually supporting Nazism, simply because Hitler's name is mentioned.

Also, the unvarnished answer is "no".

Cjail
04-26-2010, 05:50 AM
<span class="ev_code_RED">JBCool</span> you clearly are a Catholic but let me tell you one thing from the deep of my heart: your Faith isn't a fragile thing; nothing in the world will ever offend it unless you let it!
The only reason why we are all telling you to buy this game is just because we take things from what they are: AC2 is just a game and Dan Borwn is just a writer.

BodoFragins
04-26-2010, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by JBCool:
Forgive me for not investigating the "story" more in the first place.

Upon doing so, it would seem that there is no finer example of anti-Catholicism in the gaming world, than that of AC 2. 'Artistic license' some would say.

I'm not here to start an argument. I'm sorry for taking up your time.

Well that's all that can be said.

As a Catholic (and gamer who likes a good story), I admit at first I found the story a bit odd and unrealistic (aka, disappointing) but not offensive. I guess it all comes down to personal preference though.

JohnConnor2012
04-26-2010, 07:01 PM
cjail is right: an untested faith is an untempered one. Got the impression the OP came to these boards with his mind made up, seeking conformation of preconceptions. Could probably learn from "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted", video game hokum though it is....

shimpaku
04-26-2010, 10:22 PM
In retrospect, I’ll have to agree with some of what Abeonis said. As to the idea of it being “anti-Catholic” is not really correct as it envelopes the idea of any religion, in and of itself, as the pure ideological fantasies of man and how he was mislead. Obviously, being a practicing Catholic, I find the premise of this so called “Piece of Eden” ridiculous, but then again, I also find zombie infested cites as being ridiculous also.

Having said that, I honestly don’t believe that is the purpose of the game, but is merely a fantasized story that the collective developers decided upon and nothing more. Intriguing…yes, absurd, of course, but then again, so are most, if not all, of the science fiction games that abound on the market.

I think as far as the OP is concerned; I believe it is more a matter of a higher moral religious principal on his part and simply not wanting to subscribe and or contribute money to a developer that has decided to include such a radical anti religious undertone, as it were, in a game. Obviously, one cannot argue with ones principals nor should they.

I remember all too well when the movie based on Dan Brown’s book; “The Da Vinci Code” came out how adamant and outraged the pastor of our church was about it! I actually felt like standing up in church and shouting out; “How about reading the damn book first as you might just get a good laugh out of it!”

But, be that as it may, and in all honesty, I can’t really blame him in some way as it really attacked a long standing religious group called “Opus Dei” and turned it into some subservient evil cult which could not be further from the truth. Simply amazing what one can do when you mix fact with fiction. Emphasis on the word “fiction” and that is all one should consider AC as. As I pointed out before, if one could let a simple minded video game influence their beliefs, whether they be religious or not, would have to have the intelligence of a gnat! I also must also point out again, that I do not believe that was the original posters concern. I enjoyed the game and....had a very good laugh at the end of it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Meleth1977
04-26-2010, 11:31 PM
As I pointed out before, if one could let a simple minded video game influence their beliefs, whether they be religious or not, would have to have the intelligence of a gnat! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Very true! I don't belong to any church and don't subscribe to any religion or any god for that matter. I could hardly be swayed to suddenly believe in god just by playing a video game so I don't see how someones religious faith would either...

Engioc
04-27-2010, 03:44 AM
I agree with many of the other posters here that the game isn't really anti Catholic or certainly no more than it is anti Islam. I think you really should buy the game or at least try hiring/borrowing it and try it out. I don't really recall there being any specific moments where they actually said anything anti Catholic, to be honest I don't even agree that Minerva is a clear statement that there is no god, she could still be seen as a kind of god, to me its just another example of the many ideas/questions that the game does raise, who are you putting your faith in, who's story do you believe, is it religion or people who are evil/corrupt. Heck even in AC1 where Al Maulim does state that everything is just an illusion created using the piece(s) of eden doesn't mean its true or right, it's simply his side of the story, perhaps just another attempt at deception on his part, who knows. In future AC games they can completely change all the statements made so far and have someone make statements to the affect that Al Maulim is full of **** and it did all happen. One thing is really clear to me though is that it is just a game and a story, nothing more, biggest thing that tells us this is that little statement made as the game loads up....

"Inspired by historical events and characters, this work of fiction was designed, developed and produced by a multicultural team of various religious faiths and beliefs."

To me this is the only clear cut statement made in the entire game, AC1 and 2.

Now I realise this is simply a legal statement to try and avoid any controversy the game might cause but to me its also a statement that says - calm down its only a game. - and clearly they realise they are dealing with a game/story that's going to upset some people. If the OP really thinks the game goes against his beliefs then I see no reason to criticize, everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs but I do feel you'd be missing out on a great game with a part fact, mostly fiction story.



****SPOILER ALERT******

To me also while the game may be called Assassin's Creed it's also in part anti violence, because despite the fact many will tell you Altair was more comfortable with his task of killing he still was never entirely sure it was the right thing to be doing. In AC2 if you bothered to read the Codex pages you will see that even long after AC1 events Altair was still asking questions of himself, was his killing any better than those he is supposedly protecting the citizens from. He also questions if he should destroy the piece of eden or at least hide it, to protect others but also to try and rid himself of it.

Anyway that again is just another example of questions/ideas raised by the game, rather than being anti anything. It puts forward many ideas and in a way lets you decide who to believe.

GetMeOuttaHere
04-27-2010, 05:59 AM
This game/series isn't anti-catholic. It's anti-everything that gets in the way of people thinking and deciding for themselves. Get to the end of sequence 13 and watch the cut-scene. Religion was just one of the many things they used as an example.

Objects only have as much power as you give them.

DexLuther
04-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by shimpaku:
Well, there is no mistaking (in my mind) that the story line somewhat dispels Christianity as a whole as being nothing more than smoke and mirrors and that Jesus was nothing more than a con artist.

They based that part on fact. Everyone knows that!

Six_Gun
04-29-2010, 10:05 PM
I think the game tends to single out extremism of one form or another more than any one religion, including extremism in science. Sure it goes off into quite another path than the typical man created by a supreme being beliefs, but it never really implies there is no God or that science is a suitable replacement.

We also don't know what's in store for the final installment story wise. It could be the Truth Puzzle is just a fabrication meant to cause a rift in the religious community. If you notice, one of the excerpts from an email related to a glyph puzzle later in the game refers to a skeleton that was constructed to provide a viable missing link.

Note how subject 16 is trusted as revealing the Truth, yet in reality he was an overused lab rat driven mad by prolonged exposure to the Animus that could have easily been a pawn in an elaborate brainwashing of the masses. Make pieces of a puzzle hard to find and decipher, and suddenly even brilliant minds are more likely to believe it's contents.

I think there's every bit as much bad said about certain members of the scientific community as the religious community in the game, and I really feel the underlying message is to think freely and for yourself, vs clinging to extremism of any kind. At one point in the game Ezio gives a rather profound speech on the subject.

It shouldn't be overlooked as well that the religious figures in the game whom are assassinated really aren't religious figures. They are posing as such using the science of what is called pieces of Eden for ill will. And I maintain, we don't really know yet if the Eden the game refers to is fact or fabrication.

Sadly it's not too terribly difficult to make masses of people believe all those of a certain race or creed are evil. We have that going on today with some people believing all Muslims to be terrorists for what a few whom claim to be are doing. It is my opinion that those whom let extremism cloud their thinking are not true to anyone but themselves and the small percentage of people they dehumanize by their words and actions.

mystery-bell
05-02-2010, 12:10 AM
omg come on, the vatican (and church) itself did and does anti-catholic things, and rodrigo borgia wasn't quite a saint, too...

read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_Borgia

and there are a lot like him. and i add that a priest who violates a child (and there a lots of this pigs) is worster than a simple game.

Abeonis
05-02-2010, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by mystery-bell:
and i add that a priest who violates a child (and there a lots of this pigs) is worster than a simple game.

There wasn't any need for a comment like that, was there. We're not discussing catholic priests, we're discussing whether ACII potrays the Catholic faith in a negative light.

DarkAutocon
05-02-2010, 06:17 AM
i don't see why you should be bothered if its anti-catholic, german people play wwii games where you kill germans. In CoD:WaW you're figthing the Heer of the Wehrmacht, which aren't nazis. they obviously would have some satisfaction killing stupid SS soldiers, but the Wehrmacht were normal soldiers and german pkayers still put up with it, even if there grandfathers fought in the war. =3

mystery-bell
05-02-2010, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Abeonis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mystery-bell:
and i add that a priest who violates a child (and there a lots of this pigs) is worster than a simple game.

There wasn't any need for a comment like that, was there. We're not discussing catholic priests, we're discussing whether ACII potrays the Catholic faith in a negative light. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it was an example and i wanted to make clear that there are things worster than a game. And i mean you know that in AC you have to kill people, isn't it against the catholicsm??? so why asking...

JohnConnor2012
05-02-2010, 11:38 AM
Not if it's a just war. More to the point, child abuse is hardly the perogative of Catholic priests. From the Anglican tradition myself, I still remember the jokes about 'vicars and choir boys'. The Church might have seriously mishandled this issue, but its hardly a tenet of the faith (the opposite, in fact) or that relevant to the point in question.

El_Sjietah
05-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Children get abused by non-catholics every day. Why it suddenly becomes more horrible when a priest does it makes you wonder about society. I guess there isn't enough shock value when a drug addict with a child trauma does it for people to care.

mystery-bell
05-02-2010, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by El_Sjietah:
Children get abused by non-catholics every day. Why it suddenly becomes more horrible when a priest does it makes you wonder about society. I guess there isn't enough shock value when a drug addict with a child trauma does it for people to care.

i guess because it is against catholism and they represent the church. but that wasn't the theme of this thread, and i don't want that somebody feels offended.

shimpaku
05-02-2010, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by mystery-bell:
....in AC you have to kill people, isn't it against the catholicsm??? so why asking...

Killing people is against basic human morals and is not confined to the Catholic Religion only. I think you may have possibly failed to comprehend what the issue was with the OP’s concern.

With that said, I fail to see why, or for what purpose, some people are jumping in with their collective little “quips” against the Catholic Religion, aside from the obvious fact, that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject matter of this thread. Granted, there are, and always will be, some questionable people that are associated with the Catholic Church and there always will be. As far as that goes, there will always be some bad apples in any religion or organized human endeavor no matter how well intentioned it may be. Then again, that is merely the frailty of humans and not the nature of God, whomever one, or what, one may consider to be their respective God.

What really amazes me at times, when reading some reviews on various video games, is how some people seem to have this ridiculous concern about what they may consider as a preponderance of foul language in some games. They have no objection whatsoever to killing and slaughtering people en masse , but yet, have this absurd obsession with being offended by foul language! I never could really quite wrap my head around the dichotomy of such statements or concerns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DexLuther
05-02-2010, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by mystery-bell:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by El_Sjietah:
Children get abused by non-catholics every day. Why it suddenly becomes more horrible when a priest does it makes you wonder about society. I guess there isn't enough shock value when a drug addict with a child trauma does it for people to care.

i guess because it is against catholism and they represent the church. but that wasn't the theme of this thread, and i don't want that somebody feels offended. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Negative light? They just showed it for what it and other religions are. A tool for power. If god really exists, do you really think Churches and priests would really be necessary? Why would god care? If god really want you to love and serve him, then why not let everyone know that in a way that's clearer than having a 3rd party transmit the message for you. God seems pretty inefficient for the master of the universe.


Originally posted by shimpaku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mystery-bell:
....in AC you have to kill people, isn't it against the catholicsm??? so why asking...

Killing people is against basic human morals and is not confined to the Catholic Religion only. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speak for yourself. These 'basic human morals' have been cemented into our society through religious infusion. Sure they added it to most legal systems, but where do you think they got it from? Who was in control before the separation of church and state? That's right the church was. First was 'Nature's Law', then came 'God's Law', and then came 'Man's Law', which was heavily based on 'God's Law'.

If someone rejects the existence of god, then such a person would also have to reject 'God's Law' as well. This person would also reject anything that originated from 'God's Law' (IE: Man's Law). This leaves only one law. The only true law that everything we know obeys. Nature's Law. Survival of the fittest. If I deem it necessary I'll lie, cheat, steal, and even kill if I see the pros outweigh the cons. I won't even think twice about it.

Religious types often say that God's Law precedes over Man's Law, I say Nature trumps both of them. It's the only set of laws that's actually coded into our DNA. The only one we sometimes find ourselves having to suppress. That's why Humans grow weaker as a race, not stronger.

".... Everything is permitted." That's the only true basic human moral. The only thing that matters is that the outcome is survival.

Meleth1977
05-03-2010, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by El_Sjietah:
Children get abused by non-catholics every day. Why it suddenly becomes more horrible when a priest does it makes you wonder about society. I guess there isn't enough shock value when a drug addict with a child trauma does it for people to care.

Going OT here but it does become more horrible as priest (whatever christian strand they represent) are representatives for the "greater good" and the church is meant to be a safe haven for everyone, children too. Parents trust priests because they represent God and the church and priests who violate that trust are breaking not only the judicial law but also the moral law that they (and the church) tell others to follow.

El_Sjietah
05-03-2010, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Meleth1977:

Going OT here but it does become more horrible as priest (whatever christian strand they represent) are representatives for the "greater good" and the church is meant to be a safe haven for everyone, children too. Parents trust priests because they represent God and the church and priests who violate that trust are breaking not only the judicial law but also the moral law that they (and the church) tell others to follow.

And that's why you don't trust your children to middle aged men who are sworn to celebacy. Sexual needs are in our genes. Suppressing it is much like suppressing a trauma. Sooner or later it will surface and bad things happen.

People are responsible for whom they trust, not the ones they put their trust in.

M-dahaka
05-03-2010, 06:36 AM
I don't get it...

The game is called "Assassin's creed", basically, it's about a dude who goes around and kills people who in their own beliefs are bad. Last time i checked that's very anti-Christian, yet he's worried about the story making the pope look bad?

I understand your morals, you're very christian, but did you expect a game about an assassin would be about roses and butterflies?
It's about a hitman killing people, i think that should be the first thing to bump into your morals.

shimpaku
05-03-2010, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by DexLuther:
If I deem it necessary I'll lie, cheat, steal, and even kill if I see the pros outweigh the cons. I won't even think twice about it.


Oooookay!!

Now, can we all say……..SOCIOPATH.

Well, I’m certainly somewhat comforted in knowing that you’re not my neighbor!
Yes, yes, I know that you’ll certainly come back with a retort to this post but I can assure you that I’ll not respond to it as it would most certainly not serve any purpose whatsoever. That, and aside from the fact, that this thread is going WAY off tangent from the OP which is a real shame as I found it rather interesting in hearing others thoughts as to the OP question. But, as is often, and regrettably the case with many forum sites, there are always people, such as you, that spoil it for others. Odd, but the word troll comes to mind at the moment and I’m not in the mood for feeding one. Whatever……I’m finished with this thread.

Auf Wiedersehen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Murcuseo
05-03-2010, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by shimpaku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DexLuther:
If I deem it necessary I'll lie, cheat, steal, and even kill if I see the pros outweigh the cons. I won't even think twice about it.


Oooookay!!

Now, can we all say……..SOCIOPATH.

Well, I’m certainly somewhat comforted in knowing that you’re not my neighbor!
Yes, yes, I know that you’ll certainly come back with a retort to this post but I can assure you that I’ll not respond to it as it would most certainly not serve any purpose whatsoever. That, and aside from the fact, that this thread is going WAY off tangent from the OP which is a real shame as I found it rather interesting in hearing others thoughts as to the OP question. But, as is often, and regrettably the case with many forum sites, there are always people, such as you, that spoil it for others. Odd, but the word troll comes to mind at the moment and I’m not in the mood for feeding one. Whatever……I’m finished with this thread.

Auf Wiedersehen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to say Shimpaku but if there was even the slightest bit of expectation on your part that this thread would stay civil for any great length of time, that certainly shows some naivety on your part.

But, I guess we can't blame you for hoping lol

As for Dexluthers comment, I can't imagine theres the slightest bit of thruth in it, people say things like that for effect... nothing more.

I'm sure he'd like to think of himself as that hard hearted, animalistic bastard hes trying to portray but... I doubt very much he actually is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

JohnConnor2012
05-03-2010, 02:52 PM
Oh well, 'never discuss politics or religion' unless you want an argument. Suspect we're drifting a bit OT from the original question though. It was 'is AC2 anti-Catholic?' rather than 'does it matter if AC is anti-Catholic?' that rather concedes the point.

Amused how much DexLuther's opinions about God reflect those of namesakes Martin Luther and others from the Reformation, who argued individual worshippers had the same right to interpret God's word (Bible) rather than the head of the church (Pope) being final arbiter. This did lead to terrible excesses though, as in the Munster commune. The antinomian position of his later paragraphs is a tad ... extreme though.

I take the point about how priests abusing their authority reflects badly on Catholicism particularly, where authority and sanctity are hierarchically organised, with the Pope epitomising both. Tragic this should become an argument against Catholicism rather than the abuse though.

Returning to the OP, presenting a pope badly (however historically justified) or being worthy of assassination probably could be taken pretty badly by more devout Catholics as he's supposed to embody and represent the Church.

Oddly, as noted above, assassination (if not of popes!) wasn't necessarily against Church doctrine though. If a monarch was excommunicated (as Elizabeth I was, for example), it implied the protection of the Church was withdrawn from them, permitting civil strife / plotting against them in their own country, a kind of crusade.

Another oddity / irony: a lot of the conspiracy theory about secret societies started / was strongly supported by the church, especially anti-masonry, with the masons seen as rationalist, republican and otherwise subversive of clerical authority. Perhaps they have more in common with the likes of Dan Brown than they'd care to imagine?

El_Sjietah
05-03-2010, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by JohnConnor2012:
Another oddity / irony: a lot of the conspiracy theory about secret societies started / was strongly supported by the church, especially anti-masonry, with the masons seen as rationalist, republican and otherwise subversive of clerical authority. Perhaps they have more in common with the likes of Dan Brown than they'd care to imagine?

Don't go down that road. If I've learned one thing, it's that religious people don't get irony.

Ru1986
05-04-2010, 01:44 AM
There is defo 1000% no anti Catholic views inserted in this game if anything it produces pro catholic views.

SWJS
05-04-2010, 03:38 AM
Don't go down that road. If I've learned one thing, it's that religious people don't get irony.
Not true. I have a religious background and I understand Irony perfectly well.

Example: It's Ironic that I love mayonaise, but I hate cole slaw, which has mayonaise in it.

Murcuseo
05-04-2010, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Don't go down that road. If I've learned one thing, it's that religious people don't get irony.
Not true. I have a religious background and I understand Irony perfectly well.

Example: It's Ironic that I love mayonaise, but I hate cole slaw, which has mayonaise in it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol the fact you felt you had to prove yourself is ironic in itself

Xanatos2007
05-04-2010, 04:33 AM
And that was a pretty lame example in itself as well. It's like trying to prove yourself to the KKK by claiming that you don't eat dark chocolate and only eat white chocolate: you're still missing the point! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I always found it ironic that Jesus spent a great deal of his life as a carpenter and then ended up nailed to 2 planks of wood. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

El_Sjietah
05-04-2010, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
I always found it ironic that Jesus spent a great deal of his life as a carpenter and then ended up nailed to 2 planks of wood. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Hahah, classic.

SWJS
05-04-2010, 02:20 PM
lol the fact you felt you had to prove yourself is ironic in itself
I fail to see how that situation is ironic. This is the internet. Any other time if I just said something and didn't back it up, someone wouldn't believe me and several other people would whine about me being a liar and want me to prove myself and blahblahblah. I've noticed a great deal of that on this forum. With some of the people in this very thread. Terefore I find it ironic that you think it ironic that I had to prove myself. Hahaha.

You people disgust me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif *retreats to Assassins' Beureau and gets on with life as an assassin*

Black_Widow9
05-05-2010, 01:52 AM
Abusing each other isn't allowed. Back on Topic... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Murcuseo
05-05-2010, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">lol the fact you felt you had to prove yourself is ironic in itself
I fail to see how that situation is ironic. This is the internet. Any other time if I just said something and didn't back it up, someone wouldn't believe me and several other people would whine about me being a liar and want me to prove myself and blahblahblah. I've noticed a great deal of that on this forum. With some of the people in this very thread. Terefore I find it ironic that you think it ironic that I had to prove myself. Hahaha.

You people disgust me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif *retreats to Assassins' Beureau and gets on with life as an assassin* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doh, you missed it... the irony stems from the fact you actually care enough about our opinions for it to need justification.

Ah well, we've been told to move on so... I was having fun lol

dqualk
12-13-2010, 09:38 AM
As a Catholic I am extremely offended by Assassins Creed 2 and Assassins Creed brotherhood. Its still a super fun game no doubt. I avoid buying it instead I buy it used so as to not help ubisoft... I think this is just my way of being able to play the super fun game without directly supporting the game... lol But with that aside I wish it was not so anti-Catholic. I mean trying to kill the Pope during Mass? That is just evil. At least wait till after Mass. There are a million reasons why its anti catholic. I hope ubisoft will change it and make a future Pope a good guy etc etc

Redfeather1975
12-13-2010, 09:52 AM
The game comes across as more anti-oppression.

LightRey
12-13-2010, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by dqualk:
As a Catholic I am extremely offended by Assassins Creed 2 and Assassins Creed brotherhood. Its still a super fun game no doubt. I avoid buying it instead I buy it used so as to not help ubisoft... I think this is just my way of being able to play the super fun game without directly supporting the game... lol But with that aside I wish it was not so anti-Catholic. I mean trying to kill the Pope during Mass? That is just evil. At least wait till after Mass. There are a million reasons why its anti catholic. I hope ubisoft will change it and make a future Pope a good guy etc etc
You do realize that even the Catholic church itself condemnes the actions of the Borgia, don't you?
The game is not anti catholic. It simply criticizes the actions of individuals that were, are and (if all goes well) always will be looked down upon. Yes, also by the catholic church.

k0br4
12-13-2010, 10:11 AM
Before I start I'd just like to say that I'm not trying to make you "angry" or cause an argument..

I'm curious why it matters so much?

LightRey
12-13-2010, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by k0br4:
Before I start I'd just like to say that I'm not trying to make you "angry" or cause an argument..

I'm curious why it matters so much?
People generally don't like their religion being slandered. It's a bit like racism I suppose. However, some people have a hard time destinguishing offending a religion from offending individuals.

magesupermaster
12-13-2010, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by dqualk:
As a Catholic I am extremely offended by Assassins Creed 2 and Assassins Creed brotherhood. Its still a super fun game no doubt. I avoid buying it instead I buy it used so as to not help ubisoft... I think this is just my way of being able to play the super fun game without directly supporting the game... lol But with that aside I wish it was not so anti-Catholic. I mean trying to kill the Pope during Mass? That is just evil. At least wait till after Mass. There are a million reasons why its anti catholic. I hope ubisoft will change it and make a future Pope a good guy etc etc

How did you get to this thread anyway?!
Did you search and search until you found a thread that talked about your religion?
Did you make an account just to type this one comment which clearly portraits you as 'blind'?

F4H bandicoot
12-13-2010, 10:24 AM
TBF i think that anyone who doesnt purchase a game they enjoy because of religious reasons is plain stupid.
The game has modified history. In many ways, which i can exlain, religion is evil (strong word) but to choose not to buy or play a game because it depicts something in a way which you think is wrong, is plain stupid.

ZCherub
12-16-2010, 11:27 AM
If by "anti-Catholic" you mean, "Makes the Church from that era look bad", then the answer is yes. Realistically, though, history & the Church itself doesn't need the help of a video game to do that. The crimes against humanity that the papacy was responsible for are well documented outside of a fictional work made for entertainment.

LadyGahan2010
12-16-2010, 12:33 PM
As a Catholic I am extremely offended by Assassins Creed 2 and Assassins Creed brotherhood. Its still a super fun game no doubt. I avoid buying it instead I buy it used so as to not help ubisoft... I think this is just my way of being able to play the super fun game without directly supporting the game... lol But with that aside I wish it was not so anti-Catholic. I mean trying to kill the Pope during Mass? That is just evil. At least wait till after Mass. There are a million reasons why its anti catholic. I hope ubisoft will change it and make a future Pope a good guy etc etc

As a Catholic, a religious one too I am not offended at all. Why? Because I paid attention during my history classes and I know how corrupted and power-driven people were there, not only in Vatican.
On the other hand, I have seen in this thread (why did you dig it up? Why not let religious issues lie buried "in pace"?) a couple of (imo) insulting comments. The game is not insulting, people's opinions yes.

sandmanssorrow
12-16-2010, 12:40 PM
Just wanted to say that it seems a little absurd to me that people who are so concerned with Religious beliefs and not being offended by commentary or story that disputes/contradicts their personal beliefs have no problem whatsoever with content that's about KILLING.
Am I to assume that Call of Duty is a more acceptable piece of moral material because it only deals with laying waste to life and doesn't bother to challenge or express a perspective on Religion?
I'm not a fan of organized religion as a whole, seems like a support system for those who haven't found answers to questions themselves but I am a firm believer in God, whether it be the symbiotic universe we live in, an underlying energy stream we all tap into, the collective unconsciousness OR an interstellar hip dude with good hair and a tendency to get it on with mortal women from time to time (that's how I'd roll for sure).
Anyway, peace and play on.

ZCherub
12-16-2010, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by LadyGahan2010:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As a Catholic I am extremely offended by Assassins Creed 2 and Assassins Creed brotherhood. Its still a super fun game no doubt. I avoid buying it instead I buy it used so as to not help ubisoft... I think this is just my way of being able to play the super fun game without directly supporting the game... lol But with that aside I wish it was not so anti-Catholic. I mean trying to kill the Pope during Mass? That is just evil. At least wait till after Mass. There are a million reasons why its anti catholic. I hope ubisoft will change it and make a future Pope a good guy etc etc

As a Catholic, a religious one too I am not offended at all. Why? Because I paid attention during my history classes and I know how corrupted and power-driven people were there, not only in Vatican.
On the other hand, I have seen in this thread (why did you dig it up? Why not let religious issues lie buried "in pace"?) a couple of (imo) insulting comments. The game is not insulting, people's opinions yes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly. It's just an historical matter of fact.

As for digging it up, why not? Religious issues are never "burried in peace" - it's a source of disagreement all over the place. Being able to openly discuss it w/out getting super offended is a step in the right direction IMO.

I consider myself a Christian, yet I was not deeply offended by their insinuation that Jesus utilized a POE to influence peoples perception of his miracles. At the end of the day, it's fiction & has no bearing on my personal beliefs one way or the other.

sandmanssorrow
12-16-2010, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
And that was a pretty lame example in itself as well. It's like trying to prove yourself to the KKK by claiming that you don't eat dark chocolate and only eat white chocolate: you're still missing the point! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I always found it ironic that Jesus spent a great deal of his life as a carpenter and then ended up nailed to 2 planks of wood. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

This is a funny joke.

I would like to also say, that regardless of whether Jesus was or was not the Son of God or, well, Magic basically I feel it's hard to dispute his existence.
And accepting that he DID in fact exist, I have to have nothing but respect for a man who stood for his beliefs in the face of overwhelming adversity right till the end, in fact if he wasn't God's son, in the literal sense and was just a regular child of God like the rest of us I am forced to be in even greater awe of him.
In a world where commonly only mass murderers and conquers become renowned he is one of the few people to be remembered for promoting peace.
Thanks J man, you did us all a solid.

TheSpectator
12-16-2010, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by sandmanssorrow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
And that was a pretty lame example in itself as well. It's like trying to prove yourself to the KKK by claiming that you don't eat dark chocolate and only eat white chocolate: you're still missing the point! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I always found it ironic that Jesus spent a great deal of his life as a carpenter and then ended up nailed to 2 planks of wood. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

This is a funny joke.

I would like to also say, that regardless of whether Jesus was or was not the Son of God or, well, Magic basically I feel it's hard to dispute his existence.
And accepting that he DID in fact exist, I have to have nothing but respect for a man who stood for his beliefs in the face of overwhelming adversity right till the end, in fact if he wasn't God's son, in the literal sense and was just a regular child of God like the rest of us I am forced to be in even greater awe of him.
In a world where commonly only mass murderers and conquers become renowned he is one of the few people to be remembered for promoting peace.
Thanks J man, you did us all a solid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats how I've always felt about Jesus, like ghandi with a cool beard. Very nice post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif. I also find it ironic that just like Jesus this thread was resurrected to flame disciples http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

payrob07
12-16-2010, 05:27 PM
To be honest with you the Catholic Church in the time period of AC2 was EXTREMELY corrupt. So why would you be offended by the truth? The game is a story, but the church was really messed up back then.

I studied in Italy for two years, and I loved this time period. Its not like all the stuff in the game is made up. That is why people love it so much.

Foppezao
12-20-2010, 06:13 AM
When i was doing the Shrine mission in AC:B when you smash the big cross with the chandelier i was actually a little stunned..I thought are they really that against the church?..although he begins saying"magnifico" it seems like a statement they made....

Razrback16
12-20-2010, 06:21 AM
OP: There is a disclaimer at the beginning of the game that it is a fictional story. Now, it does have strong religious implications, but again, it is fiction, so think of it as reading a story and you won't be offended.

Foppezao
12-20-2010, 06:28 AM
Still though Ezio should have snapped Borgia's neck in the end, would have spared him lot's of problems http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Razrback16
12-20-2010, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by foppezao:
Still though Ezio should have snapped Borgia's neck in the end, would have spared him lot's of problems http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Agree. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

magesupermaster
12-20-2010, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by foppezao:
When i was doing the Shrine mission in AC:B when you smash the big cross with the chandelier i was actually a little stunned..I thought are they really that against the church?..although he begins saying"magnifico" it seems like a statement they made....

Sorry, but I thought that moment was awesome! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Inorganic9_2
12-20-2010, 07:16 AM
If you listen, Ezio actually says "Magnifico" when he walks into the church, not when the cross falls through the gate.

ThaWhistle
12-20-2010, 10:26 AM
given that the catholic church at this time was pretty corrupt and hte Borgias were a family of well noted ******bags, it isnt really anti-catholic sentiment so much as it is anti-borgia.

You do kill some priests and clergy and whatnot over the course of AC2, but they were all killed in real life also. The one guy from the pazzi consipiracy was the arch-bishop of pisa or something, savonarola. neither were really paragons of the catholic faith though.

Which leads me back to Rodrigo Borgia. the guy really was something of a weasel.


but the real point is, the game is fiction. and if a game about killing people for revenge while running around with a bunch of *****s and theives isn't the part you take issue with religiously, but the inferred jab at the catholic church as an institution is, something aint right.

Kieran_Y
12-20-2010, 01:08 PM
I don't see what the problem is with making a statement about the Catholic Church or organized religion in general. If anyone took the time to read the Bible, they'd realize from a belief standpoint, its no crazier than Scientology. It just goes to show how an idea can influence people so easily.

Ja Of PIe
12-20-2010, 02:51 PM
Assassin's Creed isn't Anti christian, Its kind of anti all religions, in kind of a nice way

Its this really confusing story that pretty much says all religions imaginable are wrong( In game of course) But its pretty fictional and isn't trying to convert anyone so I would say its not

flyingeaglemile
12-20-2010, 05:28 PM
Whoever made this thread is a good troll.

David.J.Carcamo
12-20-2010, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by JBCool:
Hello,

I was thinking about purchasing AC2, but first, I was wondering if the game contains anti-Catholic sentiment?

Thx

Personally a Christian, I believe playing an Anti-Christian game is not wrong, as long as you're not influenced by it. Everything in life influences you, wether you notice or not. Good or Bad. As I say, God made everything good. Sin is just a distorted good. So back to this, I bought it. Just for the fun and enjoyment of the AC series. It doesn't change my faith at all. And since you even brought up the topic I alreayd think you can handle it, either you influence, or you're influenced.

F4H bandicoot
12-21-2010, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by JaOfPie:
Assassin's Creed isn't Anti christian, Its kind of anti all religions, in kind of a nice way

Its this really confusing story that pretty much says all religions imaginable are wrong( In game of course) But its pretty fictional and isn't trying to convert anyone so I would say its not
tbf its really only saying that the newer religions which are based around 1 God are wrong, this is also allueded to in the codex.
we have Minerva, Juno and Jupiter in the game, mane of the pagan religions had these gods, im pretty sure that most of the original roman, greek etc Gods share a name ( to a point, as minerva explains in the vault).
afterall, having one god explain everything is a bit simple really, whereas a set of Gods that control forces, is a 'better' way of looking at it.
On the jesus topic we are on about ATM, yeah, he most likely did exist, he probably wasnt the son of god, he was probably, as my RE teacher once put it, 'an accident'. all his miracles probably would have looked lke miracles at the time, how many people could swim back then??

BTW, I'm not out to get at anyone, or their religious beliefs, these are my views on religion, and im not religious at all

TheSpectator
12-21-2010, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
I don't see what the problem is with making a statement about the Catholic Church or organized religion in general. If anyone took the time to read the Bible, they'd realize from a belief standpoint, its no crazier than Scientology. It just goes to show how an idea can influence people so easily.
Catholicism had a head start.

F4H bandicoot
12-21-2010, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by TheSpectator:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
I don't see what the problem is with making a statement about the Catholic Church or organized religion in general. If anyone took the time to read the Bible, they'd realize from a belief standpoint, its no crazier than Scientology. It just goes to show how an idea can influence people so easily.
Catholicism had a head start. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
IT did, and it also scaed alot of people, 'Believe us or go to hell'

Inorganic9_2
12-21-2010, 11:48 AM
Tbh, I think The Pope was pretty anti-catholic then too! Simony, promiscuity, theft, murder, sexual abuse/incest... he did it all. Not to mention that, in order to even have kids in the first place, he broke the vow of clerical chastity!


IT did, and it also scaed alot of people, 'Believe us or go to hell'

I believe Altaïr mentions this in the codex!

BK-110
12-21-2010, 02:38 PM
Well, Assassin's Creed eagerly promotes critical thinking, skepticism, freedom of expression, freedom of speech and so on, something which religious authority very often is dead set against. But it is not so much against religion. Rather it is against Authoritarianism, something which many religious authorities, including the Holy See, are well-known practitioners of.

F4H bandicoot
12-21-2010, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Inorganic9_2:
Tbh, I think The Pope was pretty anti-catholic then too! Simony, promiscuity, theft, murder, sexual abuse/incest... he did it all. Not to mention that, in order to even have kids in the first place, he broke the vow of clerical chastity!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> IT did, and it also scaed alot of people, 'Believe us or go to hell'

I believe Altaïr mentions this in the codex! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is the main reason people believe in a religion.
that and the fact their parents bring them up into the religion, meaning they dont have a choice.
its really quite funny asking a religious person (mainly christians, seen as they are very pushy to tell people who dont believe, to believe (not all of them, mind)) why they actually, believe, they dont really have n answer.