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RangerRico
01-23-2011, 09:25 AM
If kill beats stun, why does a defensive charge beat an offensive charge.

Phyxsius-
01-23-2011, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by RangerRico:
If kill beats stun, why does a defensive charge beat an offensive charge.

It beats the one that was started first actually. There, the balance is first come first served.

Or this is my understanding of it from the whole TWO cases I have had http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[EDIT 10.02] The information is wrong. Had fewer data at that time.

RangerRico
01-23-2011, 02:51 PM
Actually I've charged both first and second, it could have been lag, I'll experiment more.

obliviondoll
01-23-2011, 03:25 PM
This is another one that needs further testing.

Some people have said that charge kill only overrides charge stun if you've gone more than a certain distance in the charge, some have said the person who charges first wins, and others still have said the person who charges second wins.

Would love to get a straight answer on this. Alongside the red triangle chase thing... Hmmm...

StarScream391
01-23-2011, 03:41 PM
For some reason charge-stun is more favorable because its part of balance I guess, nothing can stop a charge when it is used on offence. (Except knives and gun)

obliviondoll
01-23-2011, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by StarScream391:
For some reason charge-stun is more favorable because its part of balance I guess, nothing can stop a charge when it is used on offence. (Except knives and gun)
And smoke bombs, if timed perfectly.

nightpriestess
01-23-2011, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StarScream391:
For some reason charge-stun is more favorable because its part of balance I guess, nothing can stop a charge when it is used on offence. (Except knives and gun)
And smoke bombs, if timed perfectly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mute as well, though it's trickier to use than a Smokebomb when someone charges.

Phyxsius-
02-10-2011, 03:26 AM
Just had a revelation:

Offensive Charge SHOULD trump Defensive Charge, if we want to be consistent in the "Assassination trumps Stun" ruleset. Not sure if it`s bug or feature.

Anyone that has better knowledge can enlighten us?

Explanation: Just as the normal assassination versus Stun, in which you die if you did not actually hit, by the time the assassinate button is pressed, Charge should follow this rule as well: IF the defense Charge did not "connect" by the time the offense Charge was started, we get the same "counter-kill" animation, in which the target / hunted dies.

It is the only situation that I know of, where the Stun has a higher priority over Assassinate.

IF I am mistaken, can anyone confirm that Charge is decided by momentum instead? So the winner is decided by how long was charging?

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 03:33 AM
Have been experimenting with charge on Manhunt defense recently - I'm still bad with it, but have worked out a few things.

Defensive charge needs to travel a certain distance before it's instant-win.

Offensive charge always drives you straight into your kill animation.

So if you can prevent the defensive player from charging far enough to get the auto-stun, you're going to win the Charge vs. Charge on offense.

Phyxsius-
02-10-2011, 03:43 AM
My best scenario was this: (I am using the relative distance between me and him)

Defender uses Charge from 5-6 meters
I use Charge from 2.5 - 3 meters

My charge made the sound and engaged for the whole meter I ran, before I got stunned.

He won.

I am unsure of my lag, so it could have been less than those numbers.

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 03:50 AM
If your target had already traveled the kind of distance you're talking when you collided, they have priority.

If it had been the other way around, you as target, them as pursuer, your charge would have got you killed, because you hadn't traveled far enough to get the instant-win stun yet.

Again, this is subject to lag interference, but in my observation, against pursuers using Charge, and pursuers not doing so, if a defensive Charge doesn't carry you more than a certain distance, which I'd guess to be about 2.5m, it doesn't beat a Charge assassination or a person mashing kill as you Charge.

Stormchase89
02-10-2011, 04:37 AM
if you were not such an obvious pursuer then this would not be a problem. I have never used charge but i also don't see many who do so i don't see where the problem lyes? as this will only ever happen such a small amount of times you could prob count them all on one hand.

Phyxsius-
02-10-2011, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Stormchase89:
if you were not such an obvious pursuer then this would not be a problem. I have never used charge but i also don't see many who do so i don't see where the problem lyes? as this will only ever happen such a small amount of times you could prob count them all on one hand.

The problem lies in the very core of the game.. or game mechanic...

The amount of times it happens or HOW it happens has no bearing on core game mechanics, such as priority of actions, like the Assassination has priority over Stun.

TLDR: How you use a ability has no bearing on how said ability works. In this case, apparently, Off charge has priority over Def Charge, bringing the question: why is it the ONLY exception to the ruleset? IF it isn`t.. which one is the deciding factor?

So far the best answer is "momentum".

SniffyPenguin
02-10-2011, 05:18 AM
Yah, defensive charge will always win.

The properties of charge mean you're invulnerable to assassinations whilst it is active. However, I guess it does not mean you're invulnerable to getting stunned, since that's a different mechanic.

If two people tried to kill one another with charge, they'd just pass through one another due to death invulnerability. However, since it is not stun immune, the defensive player will win.

SmileyRK21
02-10-2011, 07:20 AM
With respect to distance I do think that, that factor plays the most part in deciding who wins. Just on a side note to illustrate my point, I hadmy pursuer behind me at one stage during a game so I turned around and charged hime but he was so close that he actually countered the charge stun just like normal. He didn't use charge himself but because he was so close when I executed the ability he pressed assassinate and beat my charge stun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
So I defo think the deciding factor is distance and the length of charge

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
Yah, defensive charge will always win.

The properties of charge mean you're invulnerable to assassinations whilst it is active. However, I guess it does not mean you're invulnerable to getting stunned, since that's a different mechanic.

If two people tried to kill one another with charge, they'd just pass through one another due to death invulnerability. However, since it is not stun immune, the defensive player will win.
Charge doesn't make you invulnerable to assassinate.

I've Aerialed someone a couple of steps before they landed a charge on a teammate.

I've also intercepted a Charge headed for someone else in a Wanted match and killed the person using Charge.

A Charge stun makes you, after a certain distance, invulnerable against the person you're going to stun.

If your pursuer can kill you before you've travelled far enough, or if someone else kills you, then you're just as easily killed as you normally would be.

SniffyPenguin
02-10-2011, 09:30 AM
You must've got 'em just as they were starting it up, latency just made you think you killed him during it.

You're invulnerable during a charge. Go test it.

i2eign_DoVVn
02-10-2011, 09:31 AM
You are all complete scrubs for using charge. And you SHOULD receive a bunch of BS scenarios where your charge doesn't work. It's what you deserve for using a computer assisted ability and not learning how to play the game. Your charge didn't trump the other charge? TOO FRIGGEN BAD, DEAL WITH IT. YOU SHOLD HAVE NEVER BEEN USING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE! GET FRIGGEN WALL RUNNER AND LEARN THE GAME!

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
You must've got 'em just as they were starting it up, latency just made you think you killed him during it.

You're invulnerable during a charge. Go test it.
He was charging out from behind a chasebreaker gate. I was on the roof above it. Charge was active before he was in line of sight.

I dropped on top of him and he died about a metre short of my teammate.

And If I'm pressing Assassinate after I hear the charge start, I'm fairly sure no amount of lag is going to tell the game that I killed the guy before he hit charge.

And he didn't land the kill on the guy he was charging at, either, so it wasn't that I hit him when the charge finished, either.

SniffyPenguin
02-10-2011, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
You must've got 'em just as they were starting it up, latency just made you think you killed him during it.

You're invulnerable during a charge. Go test it.
He was charging out from behind a chasebreaker gate. I was on the roof above it. Charge was active before he was in line of sight.

I dropped on top of him and he died about a metre short of my teammate.

And If I'm pressing Assassinate after I hear the charge start, I'm fairly sure no amount of lag is going to tell the game that I killed the guy before he hit charge.

And he didn't land the kill on the guy he was charging at, either, so it wasn't that I hit him when the charge finished, either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Manhunt, I bait charges often and climb a wall to punish. However, I cannot get the aerial (lock) kill until the charge has finished. Ever. This happens to me in Manhunt nearly every day, so I have good experience with it.

My friends concur also. Charge is unvuln.

Dog 0f War
02-10-2011, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by RangerRico:
If kill beats stun, why does a defensive charge beat an offensive charge.
For charge it is the first to push the button,So you must push your button before he does.

RangerRico
02-10-2011, 10:27 AM
I used to use charge a lot when played manhunt, and last time I used it, I clearly remember using charge first and still getting stunned by the defensive charge.

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
In Manhunt, I bait charges often and climb a wall to punish. However, I cannot get the aerial (lock) kill until the charge has finished. Ever. This happens to me in Manhunt nearly every day, so I have good experience with it.

My friends concur also. Charge is unvuln.
When they're Charging YOU, yeah.

When they're charging the other guy, not so much.

Paragon Fury
02-10-2011, 11:34 AM
Honestly, I think if two people Charge each other, it should just end with them headbutting and stunning each other, knocking themselves both to the ground, and maybe getting a +50 "Crash Course" bonus or the like.

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by yugor1000:
Honestly, I think if two people Charge each other, it should just end with them headbutting and stunning each other, knocking themselves both to the ground, and maybe getting a +50 "Crash Course" bonus or the like.
^This.

It would be awesome.

Both lose contracts. Both get "stun" and "you just ran head-first into some other idiot with Charge" bonuses.

SniffyPenguin
02-10-2011, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
In Manhunt, I bait charges often and climb a wall to punish. However, I cannot get the aerial (lock) kill until the charge has finished. Ever. This happens to me in Manhunt nearly every day, so I have good experience with it.

My friends concur also. Charge is unvuln.
When they're Charging YOU, yeah.

When they're charging the other guy, not so much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh?

Charge isn't specific to a target; it hits whatever is in its line of trajectory. Whether its aiming at you, or another player, you cannot assassinate until the charge has finished, or if it is in start-up (latency). However, it can be stopped by a throwing knife, or a smoke grenade.

Not sure why you're pressing this issue; it's quite well known that charge is invuln to assassination.

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
Not sure why you're pressing this issue; it's quite well known that charge is invuln to assassination.
Probably because my experience disagrees with yours.

Charge auto-aims at players. As far as my experience tells me, if you're not the person it's aiming at, you're still able to assassinate the person using it.

And it hasn't been mentioned very far on the forums, and isn't in the description for the ability, so I think "well known" might be a bit of a stretch. Particularly when there are players like me with experiences to the contrary.

It's possible there's a point in the charge where you BECOME invulnerable, but you're definitely not so for the first 2m of the Charge.

That's not "during startup" and it's not "I hit the button before he did".

I hit the button as he was charging past me.

You can't blame latency when they've clearly had the ability visible active on everyone's system before you try for the kill, or when the ability was the only reason they made it into line of sight for you to get the kill - but you CAN blame a built-in delay before a secondary effect occurs. Kind of like the delay before Smoke Bombs go off.

So unless you feel like going back and doing more testing, it's one of those two options.

SniffyPenguin
02-10-2011, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
Not sure why you're pressing this issue; it's quite well known that charge is invuln to assassination.
Probably because my experience disagrees with yours.

Charge auto-aims at players. As far as my experience tells me, if you're not the person it's aiming at, you're still able to assassinate the person using it.

And it hasn't been mentioned very far on the forums, and isn't in the description for the ability, so I think "well known" might be a bit of a stretch. Particularly when there are players like me with experiences to the contrary.

It's possible there's a point in the charge where you BECOME invulnerable, but you're definitely not so for the first 2m of the Charge.

That's not "during startup" and it's not "I hit the button before he did".

I hit the button as he was charging past me.

You can't blame latency when they've clearly had the ability visible active on everyone's system before you try for the kill, or when the ability was the only reason they made it into line of sight for you to get the kill - but you CAN blame a built-in delay before a secondary effect occurs. Kind of like the delay before Smoke Bombs go off.

So unless you feel like going back and doing more testing, it's one of those two options. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've already mentioned that charge can lose when first starting up, which is in the early stages of animation. Despite the fact that everyone clearly saw the charge start, the pursuer pressed X fast enough in game time to have killed the pursuer before charge activated. However, most games use prediction or time delay algorithms to ensure fluid game play, therefore the server has to allow for the fact that the defender used charge, but then correct the server image when receiving information from the pursuer's client machine.

It;s latency. Once charge is actually active, it cannot be beaten.

Set up a room with your friends and try roofing someone who is charging and come back and post the results if you're still adamant that I'm wrong.

obliviondoll
02-10-2011, 01:03 PM
Lets play spot the deliberate mistake:

Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
It's possible there's a point in the charge where you BECOME invulnerable, but you're definitely not so for the first 2m of the Charge.

That's not "during startup" and it's not "I hit the button before he did".

I hit the button as he was charging past me.

You can't blame latency when they've clearly had the ability visible active on everyone's system before you try for the kill, or when the ability was the only reason they made it into line of sight for you to get the kill - but you CAN blame a built-in delay before a secondary effect occurs. Kind of like the delay before Smoke Bombs go off.

So unless you feel like going back and doing more testing, it's one of those two options.

I've already mentioned that charge can lose when first starting up, which is in the early stages of animation. Despite the fact that everyone clearly saw the charge start, the pursuer pressed X fast enough in game time to have killed the pursuer before charge activated. However, most games use prediction or time delay algorithms to ensure fluid game play, therefore the server has to allow for the fact that the defender used charge, but then correct the server image when receiving information from the pursuer's client machine.

It;s latency. Once charge is actually active, it cannot be beaten.

Set up a room with your friends and try roofing someone who is charging and come back and post the results if you're still adamant that I'm wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
(I'll give you a clue: The answers are in bold)

The charge had CLEARLY activated, and the target COULDN'T HAVE BEEN KILLED unless the Charge had CLEARLY been activated. There was no line of sight to the target until AFTER Charge was activated.

Like I said, there quite probably is a point at which the defensive charge BECOMES invulnerable, but they AREN'T invulnerable as soon as they activate the ability.

So at this point, we're agreeing one the results, but your argument for why it works that way is incorrect.

Which means I'm right.

Which means that once a defensive Charge has traveled a certain distance, it will override an offensive Charge. BUT NOT BEFORE THAT POINT.

And it's NOT about who pushed the button first, it's based on how far the defensive player travelled before the two collide. (That bit's in response to WraithMarine)

SniffyPenguin
02-10-2011, 01:12 PM
Do you read replies, or just write whatever you feel like?

I've said what's needed, I'll leave it at that.

You keep on trying to assassinate people who're charging at you, and I'll keep earning those sweet 200 points.

GG.