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jugent
04-04-2005, 11:47 AM
This is too much. I B&Z with a Me109 G6 with nosegun against a P-51 who was dogfighting against a Fw-190 at 500m. The P-51 shoot down the Fw-190 surprisingly and went home at aprox 500 m. The angle to the P-51 was aprox 30 dgr from 100% dive. He made some banking to check his six and went home.
I made a clean dive from aprox 2000 m and expected to chase him up. My topspeed was above 700 km/h. I planned the dive so I would come up from it 100m behind him.
I closed my radiators but I couldnt catch up with him. There where no distans-icons but I assume that he was 500 m away from me as closest. I was undamaged I hit WEP but no change. He ran away from me. This made me so frustrated that I disconnected.
The Me must have an enormous drag at speed above 250, because it dont seems to loose any speed at all while landing.
What misjudgements did I do in my A/C

BfHeFwMe
04-04-2005, 12:18 PM
Need more specific info, which G model, and what model Mustang. Off hand sounds like you should have delayed your dive and done a much shallower even if somewhat slower dive. There should never be a big hurry burning all the altitude away in a 109. A 51's going to outdive and smoke you every time, much cleaner plane.

Next time shallow or stay at altitude, follow and cut lead on his turns to close the gap. Wait a while till he's slowed and stabalized down there and the gap has closed. There's quite a bit less drag on your biff as you go up, so it'll be much easier to match speeds to catch him. Use the dive to kick him, not catch.

jugent
04-04-2005, 12:43 PM
It was a G6 AS -44 and a 20NA -44.
My speed at the highest poin was ~350km/h. I saw the Fw explode, aborted the climb came on my back and looked down through him through my "roof-canopy". Rolled to normal divepos.
When I dived down I held him slightly above the revisight. It is so hard to aim when the angle is to steep.

Dont u think that a hight-advantage of 1500-2000m should give me enough E to catch up with him?
I use this tactics in Spit and P-47 with success.
The P-47 comes so fast in this moment that I often collide.

If I had a P-47 the P-51 would have been dead meat.

VW-IceFire
04-04-2005, 02:22 PM
Trick is, what was the P-51 doing at the time? He probably, if he was smart, engaged the FW190 at 400kph or so. So he's already going faster than you. If he was in a hurry, a slight dive and full power on the engine and a Mustang can be at 550kph in no time...he can even throttle back at that point and the plane pretty much glides along at that speed. Thanks to what is probably the cleanest lines on a WWII fighter.

You probably encountered what I call the "Mustang advantage". Few pilots take advantage of it, but the Mustang is superb.

jugent
04-04-2005, 04:35 PM
The speed of the P-51 was hard to evaluate, but he did some hard turns while matching the FW:s rolling while it climbed from the deck to according to my judgement, 500m where the FW became a fireball.
There he held his hight I think, looked around, flew straight, discovered me and flew away.
Did the Me-109 got the drag of brakechute?
I have done this manouvre against Me and FW with a P-47 and got such surplus of engergy, that I from time to time, collide. The Jug is hard to curve at high speed. A perfect attack is when the Me turns into a fireball before Im in the position to collide.
I tried to do the same with a Me-109, to copy the attack, but ...

Atomic_Marten
04-04-2005, 06:11 PM
Don't know .. all of this seems strange.
With 1,500m of advantage you should be able to catch up with everything in the sime except jets.

G6AS ain't fastest Me109, but isn't far either (amazing tree-top speed).

But you see, I had a similar event online. P51 was chasing lone Bf109. Bf109 driver cries for help and 4 of us rushed to help him. I myself was on 2,500m together with another G14, while few hundreds m. below us was FW190 D9 '44.
We saw them at tree top level, then we made gentle turn.. immediatelly after he realized thet we are coming P51 driver made right turn and head towards his base. We *all* throttled at 110% WEP/etc. rad closed, but fact remains that noone had catch him, in spite of him being at least 1,000 - 1,500m below us initially, and not going at full speed (ok I must admit that he was on high speed all right). P51 is monster.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Werre_Fsck
04-04-2005, 06:34 PM
Was the server enforcing strict rules about lag?

A friend saw (2 nights ago) two Ratas catching up messers in level flight, and a MiG-3 flying at approx 3x the speed it should have ;-)

There's this thing called speedhack.
Maybe some Counterstrikers got bored 3 years late and now try trickery on DF servers.

Cess-SGTRoc
04-04-2005, 07:08 PM
If I remember this right a 109 has the drag of the same as holding a standard trashcan lid out in the wind, this was gauged by a german engenier.
The p51 had the drag of about the same as a frisbe, Spelling? and that is what you where seeing. And it is why the Mustang can run off and leave you.
This was area of drag on the wings prop and spinner and the sort on both aircraft.

jugent
04-05-2005, 02:44 AM
I hade the P-51 in sight all the time without any "hyperspace warping" -movement, so I assume that there wasnt much lag.
I have had the same experience about russian planes, that they fly much than they should. This was manifest in the first patches of Forgotten battles when the I-16 outclimbed, outspeeded the Emil, outcurved and outgunned every "Whine 09" up to the altitude of 5000m. Besides that the I-16 could take much damage from the 15-20mm gun and was practically immune to the 7,9 MG-rounds.
Every red pilot flew the I-16 on dogfight servers thoose days.
This was obvious too much, today the I-16 is more realistic.
If the P-51 was so good as you state, I salute every German pilot who took of against them.
Imagine take of in a inferior plane,against such a monster, that occured in total numerical superiority.

No my friend this equation dont come out true.
I think it is Maddox-teams old habit of making the Luftwaffe inferior.

anarchy52
04-05-2005, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
This was manifest in the first patches of Forgotten battles when the I-16 outclimbed, outspeeded the Emil, outcurved and outgunned every "Whine 09" up to the altitude of 5000m. Besides that the I-16 could take much damage from the 15-20mm gun and was practically immune to the 7,9 MG-rounds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I-16 is still resistant to 7,9mm as are most of the russian aircraft.
I've seen LaGG-3 and Yak-1 ignoring Bf-109F2 and attacking the bombers regardlesss of being shot at by 109's. LaGG-3 is for all practical purposes immune to 7,9mm but it can be shot down with 15mm if you score a pk.

Von_Rat
04-05-2005, 05:35 AM
this thread is the flip side of all those other threads by p51 flyers complaining the 109 slows down way to fast.

its all because of the huge drag differance in the planes, is it historical, i guess. but the next time someone flying a p51 wants to complain about 109 slowing down to fast, they should read this thread.

Hristos
04-05-2005, 05:55 AM
Here's a suggestion. Whenever online, record tracks. You never know what may happen. Maybe someone accuses you of friendly killing. Maybe you see someone cheating. Maybe someone simply bested you. Whatever...record track and then we can talk.

P51 may have been cunning and kept his speed cushion. You may have done some mistake. Who knows. And will never know without the track.

So, until next time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jugent
04-05-2005, 09:20 AM
I have done that almost every day, but I know Murphy and his law. It happends when the videorecorder is in your bag, dont it.

The records doesnt give the correct positions of the a/c, ive been shoot down by a plane that according to my track was beside me. It must be him because it was the only plane in shooting range 500m, who was shooting when I got hit.
Thrust me Hristos, if I would have had the track, it would have published, if interest was found.
Thanks for the tip, I use my Brakechute next time I got a P-51 on my six, if I notice him.

By the way the Me-109 is almost dragless when you want to land. I use to level out on 200km/h rather close to the field, extract flaps and sets throttle to idle, but the Me dont loose speed.
The spit slows down as expected on the same landing procedure but the Me just slips away and overshoots the field.
Anyone else noticed that?

geetarman
04-05-2005, 12:13 PM
This sounds vaugely familliar to me. If it happened on WC a few days, it might have been me. It doesn't matter anyway.

First, the 51 jock probably found a lone 190 at lower alts and dove on him at high speed. He may have made a few turns (horizontal or vertical) at high speed while shooting down the 190. His speed probably remained somewhere in the 190-210 mph range.

Once you were spotted (at a good distance away), the 51 broke for home, balls out. Low alt isn't a good place for a 51 in this sim. Usually this involves full throttle, fully closed rads and slightly nose-down trim to compensate for the nose inevitably rising due to the ever increasing speed. If the 51 started this while you were still far enough away, you weren't going to catch him. It's one of the few advantages the 51 has! Although it's acceleration isn't world-beating, the 51 will get up to a very fast speed in due course, and can keep that speed up for a long time.

If your 109 had been closer to him when you began your pursuit, things may have turned out differently.

FatBoyHK
04-05-2005, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
This is too much. I B&Z with a Me109 G6 with nosegun against a P-51 who was dogfighting against a Fw-190 at 500m. The P-51 shoot down the Fw-190 surprisingly and went home at aprox 500 m. The angle to the P-51 was aprox 30 dgr from 100% dive. He made some banking to check his six and went home.
I made a clean dive from aprox 2000 m and expected to chase him up. My topspeed was above 700 km/h. I planned the dive so I would come up from it 100m behind him.
I closed my radiators but I couldnt catch up with him. There where no distans-icons but I assume that he was 500 m away from me as closest. I was undamaged I hit WEP but no change. He ran away from me. This made me so frustrated that I disconnected.
The Me must have an enormous drag at speed above 250, because it dont seems to loose any speed at all while landing.
What misjudgements did I do in my A/C <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all drag is proportional to speed, Physics-101 stuff.

Second, given a chance to build its speed up a Mustang is very difficult to catch, It can keep its speed gained from a dive (that is, higher than its level speed) for a much longer time than 109 do. Not to mention that Mustang's SL speed is significantly higher than a 109. If you are not in range immediately after you finished your dive (that is, you two are now co-alt, on the deck), you are not going to catch him. A good Mustang pilot will now start to work you into his gunsight by some smart energy tactic, but it takes time, so you should take this opporunity to disengage before it is too late.

Third, FW and TA are even better runner than a Mustang on the deck. Although they may not be able to keep their speed for a long time, their SL speed is 10 - 20 kph faster than a Mustang. Sometimes I can't catch a FW just vuluched my base, even with 1500m of alt advantage. LW plane undermodelled?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif