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View Full Version : Old wives tales and IL2.....



Jumoschwanz
04-22-2010, 08:14 AM
The other night while flying IL2 4.09m online, I shot this one pilot down four times on a small server and he started yelling at me in the chat bar to "stop trim turning".

I told him I had been flying the sim for over eight years and I never used trim to turn, and I added that I did not think it helped anyone anyway.

He said that on "IL2 compare" that my aircraft should not be able to out-turn his.

So that means that automatically because IL2 compare shows his aircraft could turn better that he should shoot me down instead?

Obviously I was dealing with a noob, and a not too bright one either.

I asked him if he ever entertained the thought that he might someday run across someone who was a better pilot than he, or one that had more experience.

He said to stop BSing him, that he KNEW I was using trim to turn.

Anyway, to dispell two IL2 myths:

First, you can use trim to control your aircraft, but it is not going to help you out-fly an ace or shoot him down. There is no cheat that makes up for lack of experience or just being an average pilot when you are up against someone that is very good and experienced.

Secondly, IL2 Compare is not going to help you much either if you are up against a very good pilot who is very experienced in his aircraft. Even the same pilot in two different aircraft is not going to be able to get performance results that match IL2 Compare's because he will always be able to fly one aircraft better than the other.

I wasted my time telling the noob about how I am a terrible Yak pilot and when in one I am easily shot down by good bf109 pilots, but if I switch to the bf109, which I am experienced in, then I do much better, but I was talking to the wall...

I am not a Chuck Yeager fan, but he was right when he said that the guy with the most experience wins, and that is why worrying and discussing aircraft X vs. aircraft Y is a waste of time for most, along with spending time worrying about everything else outside of practicing long hours in your favorite aircraft!

You have to be in the top few percent to have the experience and brains to know and use any peculiar difference your aircraft might have over your opponents, and most of the time that ain't gonna be you.....

M_Gunz
04-22-2010, 08:27 AM
Trim your plane to fly straight and level at 600kph and then without changing trim see how well you do at 300kph and less.
Funny how that is also true IRL but of course "trim makes no difference".
OTOH when I asked Oleg years ago he replied that no hand on a joystick is perfectly steady.

If I'm going to lose speed in a turn, it's better for me that I trim up. If some other idiot does not then it's his problem.
Real neat to fly inefficiently and complain about people who fly less inefficiently. Experience must also be a cheat then.

AndyJWest
04-22-2010, 08:38 AM
The turn figures for IL-2 Compare are only given for one altitude, 1000m, and tell you nothing about how differing fuel load etc will affect turn rate. I'd only ever consider them a rough guide. This sort of chat-bar idiocy is one reason I stopped using dogfight servers.

TinyTim
04-22-2010, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by AndyJWest:
The turn figures for IL-2 Compare are only given for one altitude, 1000m, and tell you nothing about how differing fuel load etc will affect turn rate. I'd only ever consider them a rough guide.

Well said! Not to mention some of the graphs are weird at best. According to IL-2 compare, 109 outturns Mustang at all speeds, even high ones.

http://www.shrani.si/f/2W/7T/4hWqG7IJ/51vs109.jpg

Sooocool
04-22-2010, 10:40 AM
Hi Jumo, as I see it, your opponent has nothing to complain about because he/she has the same game version and difficulty settings as you as set by the host.
One has to expect that their opponent will use every resource available to be victorious, including joystick tweaking, extra hardware like ruder pedals and TIR. Even the size and type of monitor can make a difference.
Just as no two player’s skill levels are exactly the same, neither are their rigs and profiles.
When one throws his “hat in the ring” on line, he/she “virtually” shakes hands with the other players on the server and mutually agrees with the severs rules and may the player with the right stuff win.
However, there is a dichotomy in this concept;
One VERY important aspect of this “right stuff” is the pilots attitude. The pilot needs to have total confidence in his aircraft and ability to out fly and out gun any opponent under any circumstances!
It should come as no surprise that when said pilot is getting shot to pieces by his opponent that he/she feels cheated at that very moment. This is likely what happened with the trim turning objection.
I think it was Dirty Harry who said “a man’s gotta know his limitations”, so as far as I’m concerned, you did your opponent a favor by defeating him if he/she is wise enough to reflect on the engagement and learn from it. If a player does this he/she will benefit from experience, the most important aspect of the right stuff.

M_Gunz
04-22-2010, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AndyJWest:
The turn figures for IL-2 Compare are only given for one altitude, 1000m, and tell you nothing about how differing fuel load etc will affect turn rate. I'd only ever consider them a rough guide.

Well said! Not to mention some of the graphs are weird at best. According to IL-2 compare, 109 outturns Mustang at all speeds, even high ones.

http://www.shrani.si/f/2W/7T/4hWqG7IJ/51vs109.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Tim, at that low alt and those speeds it probably should. Especially if both have full tanks and ammo.

JG52Karaya-X
04-22-2010, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
Well said! Not to mention some of the graphs are weird at best. According to IL-2 compare, 109 outturns Mustang at all speeds, even high ones.

What's weird about that!?

These turning graphs shows the best turn time for a given airspeed while maintaining that speed AND keeping constant altitude. The Bf109 because of its distinctive advantage in excess thrust should therefore be more capable.

We are not talking about very tight turns here, what will limit the 109s turning ability at high speeds in a fight is its elevator authority, not energy retention.

M_Gunz
04-22-2010, 11:29 AM
Nice PM Jumo. Some day when you grow up and aren't so full of yourself you'll know better.
By then you might be about HALF my age.

K_Freddie
04-22-2010, 01:50 PM
Aww.. just shoot him down again... and again..... and again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
04-22-2010, 02:39 PM
He was giving me advice on how to meet girls. I've had to turn away women because they were old
enough to be my grand-daughters but he's going to help me with girls.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif And then he locks the PM maybe because there's nothing I could say worthy of his attention.

Wish I was so young... oh.. wait.. I remember the 70's!

ADD: Oh I forgot these -- http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WTE_Galway
04-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Back in the time of the "trim on slider" troll wars the consensus was there were two advantages to elevator trim while turning ...

1. it would seem that "in game" as opposed to IRL full trim plus full stick deflection does actually give some minor turning advantage

2. for those who soften stick settings (rather than running straight 100 on the profile) trim allows you to turn and keep in the "softened" part of the profile.

BUT to take advantage of this you pretty much needed trim on a slider to get instance response to take advantage of it.

HOWEVER with trim now subject to a delay before it kicks in there is no huge advantage to putting trim on a slider.

BTW .. the original flame was was not about use of trim in a turn as clearly that is a good thing to do, the war was about the fact that people with HOTAS setups and trim mapped to a slider were getting an unfair advantage.

na85
04-22-2010, 05:59 PM
I always thought the big beef was having flaps on a slider when flying british aircraft that only had "fully retracted" vs "landing" positions.

I.e. you could use flaps on a slider to get better results that real spitfire pilots could not do in real life.

Crying about trim on a slider seems asinine. Real fighters had trim wheels, did they not? Why do people get butthurt about people that have trim on a slider then?

Romanator21
04-22-2010, 06:12 PM
Because you cannot spin a trim wheel to its full extent in less than a second. It takes at least a few full turns.

WTE_Galway
04-22-2010, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by na85:

Crying about trim on a slider seems asinine. Real fighters had trim wheels, did they not? Why do people get butthurt about people that have trim on a slider then?

Its really a waste of time even talking about it these days as the game has put a delay into trim.

The old issue was that in a turn fight that involved direction changes, using a slider let you instantly flip from up trim to down trim and visa versa, allowing you to mirror stick movement with trim allegedly giving you an edge over people without a HOTAS. People believed it gave an unfair advantage. Rightly or wrongly it was taken seriously enough by Oleg to have the game code changed to prevent it.

The point is it is no longer an issue, someone has been reading old threads.

BillSwagger
04-22-2010, 06:43 PM
I always seem to catch a lot of crap for my feelings on trim. Its a game, i can enjoy it for what it is, others enjoy it for what it isn't. Making the argument here has always lead to a dead end. My thoughts are quite clear, complete, and based on what i see. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on it, and can disagree. I just find there is a subtle double standard. Its not so much the game as it is the third party BS that goes with it. You have squads, servers, mods, and the people that have played the sim since its birth. I know people are use to doing things their way, and they might find it challenging to hear some new ideas.

The double standard of course is getting accused of cheating when your not. I don't think it should be the job of the players to enforce these sort of things, and really it can ruin a game and destroy any positive enviornment if someone is always accusing another of cheating or taking advantage when they aren't. On the same token, someone doesn't get these ideas unless they've seen or know what cheating looks like. I guess it comes down to just playing the game and enjoying it for what it is or isn't. Its just something I've learned that comes with internet gaming, but the obvious solution is to just get rid of the crap that would otherwise give people the impressions that there are cheats. I can only expect that there will be mur murs in disagreement, but this is my opinion and bashing me or my rep won't change it.



Bill

T_O_A_D
04-22-2010, 06:52 PM
Ah just PM his name around to some of us old hats, and we can give him a daily dose of experience. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

If he doesn't just throw in the towel and quit flying, he will develop some of his own shortly.

You only grow your skills against better foes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

M_Gunz
04-22-2010, 08:09 PM
In making a small PC joystick to substitute for a full size aircraft stick there are some compromises.

The small stick has less throw so we have things like the sensitivity sliders where near center may be more accurate than
progressively farther from center, which is the default setup. The more stick you pull, the less accurate your control.
You want to argue then please go ahead with facts. This is all old understanding discussed long ago *here with OLEG* that
most players seem to abandon or forget in favor of hype and hysteria or perhaps they just don't 'get' the implications.

Implication: if you move the mapping of the more accurate sensitive area back by using the trim then you will be more
accurate in a turn than someone who does not -- you both have the sliders in the 'dish shape'.

The fact is that the short-throw hardware is unreal. Arguments about exploits being unreal... don't use them and you are
STILL unreal and maybe a bit dumb for not understanding that as well. The trim is also not as real because IRL it's a LOT
easier to trim flight and I'm not talking about how fast but getting it right and knowing as you do it when to stop.
If these things bother you then perhaps you should scream about using zoom view as well just to have something else to
whine about.

In IL2 if you don't have trim on a slider/rotary then it's better to get the tap-tap as close as possible and adjust
throttle to hold level than up-down-up-down-up-down the keys. IRL you hold the stick and adjust the wheel, and then
a while later do it again because now the plane is flying better needs some adjustment but not as bad as the key trim.
The key trim, the blindness of holding a key or moving a slider, the inability to have moving trim stop at the right
point are all unreal yet some feel that one unreality is better than another only slightly different on basis of
some disconnected aspect of the real action.

PC hardware has limits that make "realism purity" not just moot but f-ing ridiculous. Simple as that. It is like:
Hey lets fight but to make it real we must wear blinders, an eye patch, tie one arm behind the back and wear swim fins!
And no cheating with the proviso that TIR, etc, etc, etc, etc, are NOT cheats even if one player has them and the other
does not. The only cheats/advantages/exploits are the ones player-W decides. W is for guess what word.

In reality the trim relieves stick force. In reality it was used in combat by at least some WWII pilots and written as
normal procedure done constantly without special thought, a routine matter by Bud Anderson. No, a lot of GA pilots do
not do so and a lot of CFI's or at least claim-to-be-CFI's get upset at the idea of using trim for anything but steady
flight conditions but -and this is important- they are not veteran WWII pilots flying combat let alone Aces.

In reality, please tell me if you can more accurately pull and hold the stick against 5 lbs (2 kg) or less force than
against 25 lbs or 40-50 lbs force? Hmmmm? Will you better feel changes in control-surface pressure when pulling harder?

Of course there are practical limits in using trim IRL and the delay in IL2 helps to mirror those to some degree.
Who uses full trim to turn seriously limits their ability to do anything but pull the stick back and commits to
staying in the turn or losing accuracy until they can change trim if say they need to counter a change in tactic
by their adversary or some other surprise. But against noobs by noobs well, who cares anyway? The list of unreal
practices they do is long so go ahead and focus on one and then claim that any use is the same as full use.

If you need to prove you have a pair and something between there is no PC game that will do that for you.
All you prove is that what is between your pair of ears is not where your decisions come from.

BillSwagger
04-22-2010, 10:49 PM
Its not a matter of realism from the control standpoint. I think what i'm getting at is more about performance characteristics outside of what was actually achievable and being that this is suppose to be a simulation, as best, then its my thought that those things should be modified to better fit real world experiences.
A guy that has four controllers and track ir is just utilizing what the sim is geared for, and that i can understand.

I don't see the problem with a server making a rule that bans vulching, and i suppose the debate about that is just as sensitive, and not really based on reality but fairness. Servers that ban BnZ fall under similar scrutiny and i guess if it really bothered people they would just pick another server.

I can see that many people don't seem to be bothered by the trim issues as me, and so for that reason maybe its something i'd just assume learn to deal with, and use to my advantage.

Now that we know exactly what to expect and agree that it is part of the game, then there is no reason to complain or kick people over it.
Heck, so as long as we are all on the same page, there should be no more false accusations or complaints regarding this issue.

From what i'm hearing it appears to be a non-issue.



Bill

Erkki_M
04-23-2010, 12:20 AM
A guy named Bersrk is a living example that you dont need TIR, HOTAS system, pedals, heck, even a joystick, to be better than 95%+ of HL players. He told me its the swastikas in 109s and 190s - his grandparents died of hunger in Stalingrad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M_Gunz
04-23-2010, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I think what i'm getting at is more about performance characteristics outside of what was actually achievable

That's a whole lot of claim right there.

Of course the FM not being perfect and not having historic records on every bit of performance possible, how do you say?
It's for sure that a number of patches had corrected some aspects of the release FM's as well as certain planes so you
could say over-performance did and still does happen in places but is it -due- to trim use or does it just not show up
when flying less than cleanly?

Do you think that Maddox Games tests FM from the stick, or from the control surface that is unaffected by trim?
I don't know just how they do it but it is hard to imagine they don't at least use software wind tunnel, the main guys
are pros some who came from Sukhoi and not some model shop or coders with no prior aero-education. BUT HEY it's just a
PC combat game and not the kind of computing power to do everything that should be so there are rough spots to find.

The goal has been to get within 5% of known values. What is an amazing accomplishment in code does leave spots where
in absolute numbers the margins can be... 5% of 400mph is 20mph, over 30kph and you put that to a zoom it is a lot of
difference to gasp over. Use a few percent properly or even improperly and you can bring about the equivalent of stage
magic in flight model feats. Example of improper: plane A runs 110 seconds while plane B runs for 70 seconds, both on
a course that emphasizes their differences and viola plane A "is 30% too good at energy retention". This requires to
ignore the 57% longer engine input of plane A of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif but it is about the ends and not the means with BS.

If using trim is a cheat then so is flying coordinated in most conditions or getting away with a skid in others.

When "Swede" Vejtasa outfought multiple Zeros in an SBD, did the Japanese cry "OVERMODELED!"? Because there was "no way"
it was possible when you play the stats game. Do that online in IL2 and the screaming would never, ever end.

Hawgdog
04-23-2010, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
The other night while flying IL2 4.09m online, I shot this one pilot down four times on a small server and he started yelling at me in the chat bar to "stop trim turning".

.

.......ah.....track please

BillSwagger
04-23-2010, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I think what i'm getting at is more about performance characteristics outside of what was actually achievable

That's a whole lot of claim right there.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since we agree this is how it was intended then there's no reason to complain.
I just wish the server people would stop kicking me. Maybe you can represent me M_gunz. You can enlighten them on the physics model of the game and Oleg's intentions. Even the percentages of accuracy to expect from them. Maybe then they will stop kick/banning me for using the game how it was intended.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Bill

M_Gunz
04-23-2010, 05:47 AM
You think if I lead those mules to water that they will drink?

You know that the kid with the ball gets to be the pitcher/quarterback/star at least when the others have no ball?
Unless he gets beat up and the ball taken in the rough neighborhood, hehe. But you can't do that with servers.

Best answer I know is find a different server. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I'll get you one that I know the admin are not dorks.

One other thing about performance and charts. The charts show certain weights and alts for standard conditions.
Take the same plane up in a summer afternoon and then that evening when the air has cooled and the difference
in performance, not just lighting conditions, is almost day and night. Summer to winter is even more. Colder air
is better for thrust and lift so I am sure the turn as well and no, poor losers won't listen.

Jumoschwanz
04-26-2010, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:
.......ah.....track please

I don't have a track, but what would you look for on it anyway? If you want a track of me flying then get with me, fly with me and take a track.

The noob was flying a P40e and I was in an F4, we could replicate that easy enough. The aircraft are a good match and I will fly either one, no difference to me.

Of course my experience is with the official versions of these aircraft, if anyone is talking about what various hacked(modded) versions of them are out there then I can not say a thing about them as I don't have much experience flying hacked versons of the sim at all, the official version of the sim is good enough for me to get the job done with, even on servers that allow either hacks or official versions of the sim to join up.

I have not needed track IR, trim on a slider, or non-official hacked(modded) versions of IL2 to shoot anyone down whether they are flying what I don't have or not.

Ultima Latet shot everyone and their Uncle down for years with the official version of the P-51 Mustang and it's fifty caliber guns, but most of the girls out there were not good enough to do it, so they use hacks(mods) so they can be like him.

The only time I was able to keep on top of Latet and his use of the official version of the late P-51 was if I was in a Dora.

Was the noob I was flying the 109f4 against using a hacked(modded) P40? Who knows, the server was his and I doubt if he had CR2 file checking going on it if I had to go by his general attitude.....

Erkki_M
04-27-2010, 12:19 AM
You sure it wasnt the E-M105 field mod? its by far the best turning P40. Only some one hundred ever flew, though.

julian265
04-27-2010, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:

The noob was flying a P40e and I was in an F4, snip

That's a combination that I tested a few times with squad mates. After more than a full turn the F4 dominates, it was as simple as that. The P40E just couldn't keep its energy up whilst turning with the F4. The F4 is also faster and climbs better.

BillSwagger
04-27-2010, 03:51 AM
I like the P-40e. I was on Spits lately taking a 1000 lber to drop on a target and then would quickly fly back to base to do it again. The first time I got shot up by a BF110 that was actually chasing down a Spit when i intervened. On my second attempt, i got bounced by a 109F4, and there's really no shaking that plane once he's on your six, but i was able to drop my bomb in time. On my third attempt, i took out two 109s, one that i bounced and another in a head on, and then got chased down by a third as the map ended. I don't think its impossible in a P-40e but its not really the optimum dog fighter. I prefer it more as a seek and destroy type plane, where i try to stay low with some ordinance and shoot up the roadways and drop bombs on hard targets. I think they fixed all the mod pucky that had people confused about plane performances. Most planes retain the stock FMs unless they say so. I still prefer vanilla on the dogfight servers for computer performance reasons.



Bill

Kettenhunde
04-27-2010, 05:01 AM
Well said! Not to mention some of the graphs are weird at best. According to IL-2 compare, 109 outturns Mustang at all speeds, even high ones.

Everybody understands the graph is being misinterpreted and this claim is false?

The diagram only goes to 530kph at 1000m. 530kph is far below the Mustangs Vmax at that altitude.

Jumoschwanz
04-27-2010, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
You sure it wasnt the E-M105 field mod? its by far the best turning P40. Only some one hundred ever flew, though.

Yes, I hit "S", like I always do to check out the competition. The P40 field mod can be wicked in the right hands.

If someone wants to have circles flown around their 109 by a P-40, then jump into EAF_TonyR's duel server someday. He is a very, very good pilot in the P-40 and a lot of other aircraft and he will show most all of you how to make a smoking hole in the ground.

Again, it is going to be mostly the pilot, not the plane type that dictates who gets shot down. If you are in a P-40 and you keep it turning in a circle playing ring around the rosy until you are at a disadvantage then you certainly do not know what you are doing in the aircraft...

Erkki_M
04-27-2010, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
You sure it wasnt the E-M105 field mod? its by far the best turning P40. Only some one hundred ever flew, though.

Yes, I hit "S", like I always do to check out the competition. The P40 field mod can be wicked in the right hands.

If someone wants to have circles flown around their 109 by a P-40, then jump into EAF_TonyR's duel server someday. He is a very, very good pilot in the P-40 and a lot of other aircraft and he will show most all of you how to make a smoking hole in the ground.

Again, it is going to be mostly the pilot, not the plane type that dictates who gets shot down. If you are in a P-40 and you keep it turning in a circle playing ring around the rosy until you are at a disadvantage then you certainly do not know what you are doing in the aircraft... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, hes good, run into his TomahawkIIb yesterday in my Emil. After about 10min he finally went down, I had some luck with me as he had a slight alt advantage initially, it got worse during the fight but I managed to reverse it.