PDA

View Full Version : A Tribute to N00b Training Aircraft - complete with n00bs



Wepps
03-03-2008, 07:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RndLLE4FNVM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arq-alOc-Pk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnAprXmDFcQ&feature=related

Astro_801
03-04-2008, 02:18 AM
Thanks' for keeping us informed about your favorite training planes.
Try also the LA5 to 7. You'll love them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Wepps
03-04-2008, 05:57 AM
As I recall, I once tested the La-5 in-game, and learned a few things.

The most exotic of them was the fact of it being almost a perpetual motion machine.

I took one up, trimmed it nice for looping and watched while it did 217 consecutive loops while relaxing back in my chair and drinking a few cold ones.

Astro_801
03-04-2008, 07:38 AM
Very cool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

And where does your passion for noob planes come from ?

Wepps
03-04-2008, 08:07 AM
Where else?

There are enough to choose from in IL-2.

I recall the perfect German n00b aircraft being the People's Fighter, the He-162, designed to be not so involved in flight characteristics. Just turn the wheel and play with the gas.

Unfortunately it's not modeled in IL-2 as a flyable.

What's also unfortunate is how in IL-2 the German pilots bail out without first bringing the clock with them...

In my experience in IL-2, it almost seems to me that the Blue and Red sides were modeled from two differing perspectives:

1 - Blue - historical accuracy...

2 - Red - game playability.

GIAP.Shura
03-04-2008, 09:30 AM
http://www.discoversouthcarolina.com/files/gallery/lg/fishing_girl_lg.jpg

rnzoli
03-04-2008, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Wepps:
In my experience in IL-2, it almost seems to me that the Blue and Red sides were modeled from two differing perspectives:
Old news. This is long time admitted by Oleg himself, and confirmed later on again by himself several times. Try to search for these posts posts on the ORR forums, you will find them quickly. And once he also said that he tried to model the Axis aircraft for playability too, but then the imbalance became so big, he had to return all of them to historical strenghts in the next patch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

joeap
03-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Wepps:

I recall the perfect German n00b aircraft being the People's Fighter, the He-162, designed to be not so involved in flight characteristics. Just turn the wheel and play with the gas.

Unfortunately it's not modeled in IL-2 as a flyable.



Yes it is flyable.

BrewsterPilot
03-04-2008, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:

I recall the perfect German n00b aircraft being the People's Fighter, the He-162, designed to be not so involved in flight characteristics. Just turn the wheel and play with the gas.

Unfortunately it's not modeled in IL-2 as a flyable.



Yes it is flyable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many versions too, as of 1946 addon.

Pluto8742
03-04-2008, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Wepps:
As I recall, I once tested the La-5 in-game, and learned a few things.

The most exotic of them was the fact of it being almost a perpetual motion machine.

I took one up, trimmed it nice for looping and watched while it did 217 consecutive loops while relaxing back in my chair and drinking a few cold ones.

A Sopwith Pup with all of 100 bhp would loop indefinitely without loss of height. Why do you think a high-powererd WWII fighter couldn't do this?

Cheers,

P8.

Wepps
03-04-2008, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by BrewsterPilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:

I recall the perfect German n00b aircraft being the People's Fighter, the He-162, designed to be not so involved in flight characteristics. Just turn the wheel and play with the gas.

Unfortunately it's not modeled in IL-2 as a flyable.



Yes it is flyable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many versions too, as of 1946 addon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry. 'was' not flyable.

Jaws2002
03-04-2008, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by GIAP.Shura:
http://www.discoversouthcarolina.com/files/gallery/lg/fishing_girl_lg.jpg


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif +1.

VW-IceFire
03-04-2008, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by Wepps:
As I recall, I once tested the La-5 in-game, and learned a few things.

The most exotic of them was the fact of it being almost a perpetual motion machine.

I took one up, trimmed it nice for looping and watched while it did 217 consecutive loops while relaxing back in my chair and drinking a few cold ones.
FB1.0? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Honestly...despite its odd capabilities I simply don't find it a good combat machine.

Astro_801
03-05-2008, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:

1 - Blue - historical accuracy...

2 - Red - game playability.

Why do you think that only red planes are playable?
Are the blue ones too difficult ?

Anyway it helps to understand why you like these LA and YAKS.

Wepps
03-05-2008, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Astro_801:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:

1 - Blue - historical accuracy...

2 - Red - game playability.

Why do you think that only red planes are playable?
Are the blue ones too difficult ?

Anyway it helps to understand why you like these LA and YAKS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When first jumping into the aircraft, I experience several things which tell me this:

(all observations from initial state of the game during its first year)

109 F-2 - difficult to fly, minimal firepower.
vs. I-16s - easier to fly, highly maneuverable, easy to kill targets.
vs. MiG-3s - easier to fly, good firepower, more maneuverable.
vs. Yak-1s - much easier to fly, equal firepower, much more maneuverable.

In fact, I could out-maneuver and out-position all German fighters with any of the Soviet aircraft available at the start of Barbarossa. As long as I had equal or greater altitude, there was no fighter or interceptor in the Soviet inventory that I would deem inferior in any way.

This, to me, spoke to Oleg wanting to provide a more interesting challenge through game play rather than pure historical accuracy on his part. In essence, given no tactical advantages to either side, there appeared to be a clear Soviet superiority in general flight characteristics, and in the case of the I-16, superior firepower. This last exists even in the latest version of IL-2.

Being an historical-anal-pilot, I'd prefer that historical accuracy were maintained across the board regardless of playability on the part of the Red side.

It's quite easy to create offline campaigns that represent the true nature of the aerial conflict over Russia in 1941, but online the characteristics of the available aircraft showed quite a leeway in model development leaning toward the Red. Given equal pilot skill and circumstances, the Soviets win most engagements during the '41 period. Pokryushkin himself argued the inferiority of all Soviet air superiority aircraft to any in the German repertoire. I would argue, then, that his position that Soviet pilots spend more time surviving than being a threat was the standard condition of the period. The Soviets had some naturally good pilots none of which would have argued Soviet technical superiority in any of their aircraft versus the opponent. This does not show itself as the condition of 1941 aircraft in IL-2, but a clear leaning in favor of the Soviet.

This is still the case.

That's my own perspective on what is seen here. In my opinion, there is no better flight sim out there, even after all these years! I'd prefer IL-2 over anything else. Nothing comes close.

But again, I'm more of an historian than a pilot lol. I'd rather see the true characteristics of the aircraft over the playability.

(and a complete set of maps for European Russia...to hell with the Pacific!)

Astro_801
03-05-2008, 09:41 AM
Tx for these clarifications.

Jaws2002
03-05-2008, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Astro_801:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:

1 - Blue - historical accuracy...

2 - Red - game playability.

Why do you think that only red planes are playable?
Are the blue ones too difficult ?

Anyway it helps to understand why you like these LA and YAKS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When first jumping into the aircraft, I experience several things which tell me this:

(all observations from initial state of the game during its first year)

109 F-2 - difficult to fly, minimal firepower.
vs. I-16s - easier to fly, highly maneuverable, easy to kill targets.
vs. MiG-3s - easier to fly, good firepower, more maneuverable.
vs. Yak-1s - much easier to fly, equal firepower, much more maneuverable.

In fact, I could out-maneuver and out-position all German fighters with any of the Soviet aircraft available at the start of Barbarossa. As long as I had equal or greater altitude, there was no fighter or interceptor in the Soviet inventory that I would deem inferior in any way.

This, to me, spoke to Oleg wanting to provide a more interesting challenge through game play rather than pure historical accuracy on his part. In essence, given no tactical advantages to either side, there appeared to be a clear Soviet superiority in general flight characteristics, and in the case of the I-16, superior firepower. This last exists even in the latest version of IL-2.

Being an historical-anal-pilot, I'd prefer that historical accuracy were maintained across the board regardless of playability on the part of the Red side.

It's quite easy to create offline campaigns that represent the true nature of the aerial conflict over Russia in 1941, but online the characteristics of the available aircraft showed quite a leeway in model development leaning toward the Red. Given equal pilot skill and circumstances, the Soviets win most engagements during the '41 period. Pokryushkin himself argued the inferiority of all Soviet air superiority aircraft to any in the German repertoire. I would argue, then, that his position that Soviet pilots spend more time surviving than being a threat was the standard condition of the period. The Soviets had some naturally good pilots none of which would have argued Soviet technical superiority in any of their aircraft versus the opponent. This does not show itself as the condition of 1941 aircraft in IL-2, but a clear leaning in favor of the Soviet.

This is still the case.

That's my own perspective on what is seen here. In my opinion, there is no better flight sim out there, even after all these years! I'd prefer IL-2 over anything else. Nothing comes close.

But again, I'm more of an historian than a pilot lol. I'd rather see the true characteristics of the aircraft over the playability.

(and a complete set of maps for European Russia...to hell with the Pacific!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are far from true here.
With competent pilots the Germans dominate the eastern front straight up to the introduction of LA-5F/FN.
The 109F4 beats everything the Russians have up to la-5 and the G2/FW-190 combination dominates after that. Why do you think is so hard to get people to fly red in the servers during this period.

Wepps
03-05-2008, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:

You are far from true here.
With competent pilots the Germans dominate the eastern front straight up to the introduction of LA-5F/FN.
The 109F4 beats everything the Russians have up to la-5 and the G2/FW-190 combination dominates after that. Why do you think is so hard to get people to fly red in the servers during this period.

I'm talking the first year. We were discussing what might have been the purpose behind Oleg's design reasoning in those days.

As to finding it hard to find Red fliers?

*shrug*

I never heard of this before.

Still, even today there are anomalies. For example: the fire-breathing I-16. Most powerful guns in the Soviet Theatre. In the middle of a hairball, there is nothing I'd rather fly in June of 1941.

Jaws2002
03-05-2008, 12:11 PM
I-16 actually had the best guns in the teatre in that time.
It had 2 ShVAK cannons wich were clearly better then the MG-FF/M on the emil, It had two instead of one on the 109F, and on top of that it had the best small calibre MG used in fighters in WW2. DID you ever check the ROF and muzle velocity of the ShKAS compared with the rest of them?

Look here:
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

Wepps
03-05-2008, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
I-16 actually had the best guns in the teatre in that time.
It had 2 ShVAK cannons wich were clearly better then the MG-FF/M on the emil, It had two instead of one on the 109F, and on top of that it had the best small calibre MG used in fighters in WW2. DID you ever check the ROF and muzle velocity of the ShKAS compared with the rest of them?

Look here:
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

All fine and good, until I find it to be superior to the Focke Wulf as well.

With an I-16, I managed to take down 4 109s in a hairball just the other night. And I had plenty of ammo left afterwards, each kill being nothing more than just a touch of the trigger.

The person who was with me here was really impressed. Then I told her that I'd show her the German fighters, and couldn't hit anything, let alone kill anything. There were exceptions, but she plain out said to me, "I thought the German fighters would have been much better than that."

Yes.

They were.

GIAP.Shura
03-06-2008, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:
Then I told her that I'd show her the German fighters, and couldn't hit anything, let alone kill anything.

SHIFT+F1

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WTE_Ibis
03-06-2008, 01:06 AM
He's back, after all this time, trim on a slider anyone?

.
This forum needed some spice inserted http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif


.

Erkki_M
03-06-2008, 02:58 AM
Ever tried flying I16 in a many vs many fight where 109s are not AIs and not total newbies that would always turn?

Ever tried flying any other VVS plane, but I-185 and MiG-3am38 fantasy planes, before La-5FN, against a human 109F/G2?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


In AFW2, its now 1943. This is a list of pilots with best Max Airkills in the best streaks

http://war.by-airforce.com/all_pilots.php?key=a_steak_m...=0&minmis=1&offset=0 (http://war.by-airforce.com/all_pilots.php?key=a_steak_max&order=DESC&army=0&minmis=1&offset=0)

and here AFW1 after after Berlin 45:

http://war.by-airforce.com/all_pilots1.php?key=a_steak_...DESC&army=0&minmis=1 (http://war.by-airforce.com/all_pilots1.php?key=a_steak_max&offset=0&order=DESC&army=0&minmis=1)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Until La-5 arrives the 109F4 is by far superior to all VVS planes. Only exceptions are MiG-3ud(at +6500m), I16 and I153 (turning). Even the La-5 is just faster, and that at lower alts only. Anyway, jerries got 109G2 then, fighting one with La5 is like fighting a Spit25lbs in a G2. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And about 109 being harder to fly than I16 or Yaks... I have to disagree. They arent.

Flying against AI wont tell you much about which plane does what well etc. since they only either fly straight and get killed or shoot you between your eyes from impossible angles.

Wepps
03-06-2008, 04:24 AM
Right, things have changed.

I'm not whining, just observing.

In fact I don't start whining until I realize there are no new maps in 5 years on the Ostfont. THAT bugs me.

AnaK774
03-06-2008, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:



Anyway, jerries got 109G2 then, fighting one with La5 is like fighting a Spit25lbs in a G2. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And about 109 being harder to fly than I16 or Yaks... I have to disagree. They arent.



G2 is still best option in my hands of 109's before K4 against ufo25 due slightly better maneuverability than boosted g6's and option for mg151 unlike later G's.

And 109 is not that much harder to fly, but needs more tactical and situal aware flying style than early/mid russian birds.