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View Full Version : What if? Fw190 w/ daimler-benz?



Saburo_0
08-12-2009, 02:11 PM
I like what if scenarios etc. And one I have wondered about since I was a young ladd, is what if they had mated the Fw190 with the DB series of engines? Against the Ami bombers the 190's lack of altitude performance seemed to be its major weakness. Would it have performed similarly to the 190D?
I'd like to know what those of you more knowledgeable than myself think!

VF-17_Jolly
08-12-2009, 02:27 PM
Focke-Wulf then concentrated on an improved high-altitude fighter variant, the "FW-190C", with the DB-603 inline engine. Following an initial prototype adapted from an FW-190B, six FW-190C prototypes were built. They featured a DB-603 inline engine, an annular radiator that gave the engine some appearance of a radial installation, and a four-bladed propeller. The six final prototypes featured an elaborate turbocharger installation, with two fitted with a Hirth 9-2281 turbocharger and four with a DVL TK-11 turbocharger.




FW190C (http://www.fockewulf190.net/uk/fockewu/develuk/fwcuk.htm)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/POLISH_PILOT/afabddfd07e76c2bffe8889c10679142.jpg

Gammelpreusse
08-12-2009, 02:33 PM
Pretty brutal looking aircraft

http://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/picturesd/g57.jpg

http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/190-C.jpg

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-12-2009, 02:37 PM
That is a beautiful aircraft made ugly right there.

VF-17_Jolly
08-12-2009, 02:47 PM
The D series looked much better

CUJO_1970
08-12-2009, 04:05 PM
It's hard to improve on perfection.

na85
08-12-2009, 04:26 PM
lol perfection

Metatron_123
08-12-2009, 04:50 PM
I know, its the funniest of words isn't it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Choctaw111
08-12-2009, 05:01 PM
The 190 is a good looking plane and I think that it still looks good, albeit meaner, with the V type engine.

PanzerAce
08-13-2009, 04:46 AM
You know....I'm not sure how I feel about the look of that plane. Part of my likes the oil cooler scoop, another part hates it and wants it to die http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

skarden
08-13-2009, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
It's hard to improve on perfection.

+1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

general_kalle
08-13-2009, 02:03 PM
well...it kinda reminds me of the D9...prettier than the A models thats for sure.

i think however the D series were more powerful engine wise.

VF-17_Jolly
08-13-2009, 02:15 PM
I think the turbo-supercharger style arangement was too cumbersome

The Jumo however was a failure on a later 109

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/POLISH_PILOT/4_1.jpg

http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/czech/avia_s-199.jpg

Czech pilots didn`t call it Mule for nothing

Urufu_Shinjiro
08-13-2009, 04:25 PM
How about a Fw190 with a jet engine:

http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/picturesm/Fw190.jpg

AndyJWest
08-13-2009, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
How about a Fw190 with a jet engine:

http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/picturesm/Fw190.jpg
I see the inlet - where is the jet exhaust?

Or does it just suck itself into the air?

Urufu_Shinjiro
08-13-2009, 04:58 PM
This is what I've been able to dig up so far:


Fw190TL does mean "Turbinenluftstrahl" or turbojet. The long cowl contained a proposed Focke-Wulf designed jet engine which would have an odd annular exhaust instead of a nozzel. The proposal was not proceeded with and no hardware was made.


The Fw 190TL was of course never built and remained as a design study.
The way the hot exhaust gases passed over the entire fueselage and the
cockpit would have presented severe challenges as well as wasting the
energy of the Jet by creating back pressure, turbulence etc. That's
the value of design studies; they sometimes tell you that things won't
work very well.


The Fw-190TL WAS built and so was the Focke-Wulf T-1 centrifugal engine
that powered it. You might want to check your references. "Luftwaffe
Secret Projects Fighters 1939-1945" is a highly reputable source and
the pic I posted comes from the "Jets '45" site.
Like the Fw-190C Kangaroo or Fw-190 V19 Falcon-Wing (which were also
built), the Fw-190TL is just obscure. People think because the Me Bf
109TL was not built that neither was this a/c. But it was.

So some conflicting but interesting info.

AndyJWest
08-13-2009, 05:09 PM
This was for real then? I thought you were having us on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Edit -------------

In fact I'm still not sure - I don't suppose you can provide some evidence...

Saburo_0
08-13-2009, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by VF-17_Jolly:
Focke-Wulf then concentrated on an improved high-altitude fighter variant, the "FW-190C", with the DB-603 inline engine. Following an initial prototype adapted from an FW-190B, six FW-190C prototypes were built. They featured a DB-603 inline engine, an annular radiator that gave the engine some appearance of a radial installation, and a four-bladed propeller. The six final prototypes featured an elaborate turbocharger installation, with two fitted with a Hirth 9-2281 turbocharger and four with a DVL TK-11 turbocharger.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> FW190C (http://www.fockewulf190.net/uk/fockewu/develuk/fwcuk.htm)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/POLISH_PILOT/afabddfd07e76c2bffe8889c10679142.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now this one I think looks sweet! The 2nd pic does look a bit rough, but maybe I could get used to it. How was the performance on these things? Edit: Oops, didnt realize that was a link. Thanks!

yuuppers
08-13-2009, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
This is what I've been able to dig up so far:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The Fw-190TL WAS built and so was the Focke-Wulf T-1 centrifugal engine
that powered it. You might want to check your references. "Luftwaffe
Secret Projects Fighters 1939-1945" is a highly reputable source and
the pic I posted comes from the "Jets '45" site.
Like the Fw-190C Kangaroo or Fw-190 V19 Falcon-Wing (which were also
built), the Fw-190TL is just obscure. People think because the Me Bf
109TL was not built that neither was this a/c. But it was.

So some conflicting but interesting info. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does the person who wrote that go on to explain how the pilot was not roasted alive or how the 20mm ammunition was kept cool enough so it did not explode? The exhaust from the engine enveloped the fuselage. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

R_Target
08-14-2009, 05:32 AM
In-line Fw looks a little homely without the extended fuselage.

Urufu_Shinjiro
08-14-2009, 06:12 AM
All I did was google it: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q...&fp=1d3438fbc28dc0ec (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Fw+190TL&aq=f&aqi=g10&fp=1d3438fbc28dc0ec)

AndyJWest
08-14-2009, 07:50 AM
Following Urufo Shinjiro's Google link, I ended up here (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/b570907196f91706?pli=1), which at least shows that this forum is a bit more polite than some. It doesn't really resolve the issue of the reality or otherwise of this project, and with the quick search I've done the only supposed photo looks photoshopped to me, and to others too by the comments in the forum: http://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/picturesd/g58.jpg
Unless there is real evidence from a reliable primary source forthcoming, I'd be inclined to dismiss it as either complete fantasy, or something Kurt Tank doodled on the back of an envelope and then rejected as just plain daft.

danjama
08-14-2009, 07:52 AM
clearly fantasy created by some armchair geek

ridiculous that it should even be considered, it would be more than documented in literature on the subject

yuuppers
08-14-2009, 08:47 AM
I don't know where they get the idea this was a real project in the link since it was given the name Vorschlag 1 (Proposal 1).

A nice book to read on German jets is Jet Planes of the Third Reich: The Secret projects by Manfred Griehl. ISBN 0-914414-36-7 It is a Monogram book.

Urufu_Shinjiro
08-14-2009, 09:30 AM
Well, the concept is not unique and this type of propulsion has been built, believe it or not in 1910!

http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets.../CoandaAeroplane.htm (http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/Coanda/CoandaAeroplane.htm)

VF-17_Jolly
08-14-2009, 12:59 PM
Bit of a Pulse-ram-jet type afair http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

PanzerAce
08-15-2009, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by VF-17_Jolly:
Bit of a Pulse-ram-jet type afair http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Urufu and Jolly: Close....but no.

The Coanda is a thermojet, basically a piston engine driving the compressor stage of a jet. It's identical in operation to the I-250's setup, and some Italian planes as well. Jolly, a pulse/ramjet setup would be more properly refered to as a valveless pulsejet.....which are absurdly loud, and absurdly awesome (and the reason why my senior thesis was a week late :P)