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View Full Version : American Pilots Flying Spitfires...Interesting Read



Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 01:38 AM
http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/spitfire/spitops.html


Well I found it interesting anyway...hope sme of you do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One amusing quote :-

Of interest to the 31 FG was a visit by General Arnold and Lieutenant General Spaatz on the 10th of December. General Arnold, among other things, presented a Distinguished Flying Cross to Lieutenant Weissmueller. In passing conversation afterwards, Lieutenant Weissmueller got into hot water with the general by making a comment about how he thought the Spitfire was the best airplane in the world (22:--)!

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-29-2005, 03:25 AM
Great reading. Recommended. Thank you.

Udidtoo
08-29-2005, 09:35 AM
Intresting read. Ty

"The British thought it would be unwise to pit the P-39 against the Luftwaffe's better performing aircraft. In the opinion of many pilots that flew them, the P-39 was the worst fighter aircraft built by the Americans in World War II (26:--)."

I always chuckle when I see this in its many forms. FB would have cured them of this incorrect belief.

Don't blame Oleg if your favorite white starred plane doesn't live up to your expectations. Blame the lend lease for not giving 3000+ Ponies and Tbolts to Mother Russia. Everything gets better with enough red stars applied.

The pilots for the most part seemed reluctant to give up manuverbility in exchange for speed and altitude when the transistions began in almost any read on those 2 fighter groups. In that they would fit nicely into most servers at HL.

Chuck_Older
08-29-2005, 10:03 AM
Might want to check out "Woodbine Red Leader" by George Loving, jr., as well

Ace with the 31st, flying Spit Vs and P-51Bs. He retired a Lt General. I have his P-51B "Ginger" skin someplace...

JtD
08-29-2005, 10:07 AM
Interesting read. However I wonder how a Major Coward became XO of the 52nd Fighter group.


(Yeah, sorry, I know I am too old for making jokes over peoples names.)

panther3485
08-29-2005, 10:28 AM
Hi there, Xiolablu3,

[quote] "Lieutenant Weissmueller got into hot water with the general by making a comment about how he thought the Spitfire was the best airplane in the world"

Sounds like Lieutenant Weissmueller got a similar reaction from his superior, to the one that Galland got from Goering.

Of course, I'm being a little bit unfair here, because Galland's comments about the Spitfire were made in an entirely different context...
I just couldn't resist making the comparison!

Best regards,
panther3485

Udidtoo
08-29-2005, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Might want to check out "Woodbine Red Leader" by George Loving, jr., as well

Ace with the 31st, flying Spit Vs and P-51Bs. He retired a Lt General. I have his P-51B "Ginger" skin someplace...


I have a Ginger skin myself. Do you happen to know which skinner did yours? Mine has no name in the properties although its maked as Mtl effect by Leadspitter and panel rework by Fury.

Its defo from the IL-skins days.I get weird about skins with no author.

P.S. sorry for the hijack but good threads branch into more things of intrest.

Bearcat99
08-29-2005, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Might want to check out "Woodbine Red Leader" by George Loving, jr., as well

Ace with the 31st, flying Spit Vs and P-51Bs. He retired a Lt General. I have his P-51B "Ginger" skin someplace...

I am reading that book right now....LOL.

Christos_swc
08-29-2005, 04:05 PM
Good read.
German pilots were taken by surprise when they first met the Spit IX over Afrika although that wans't the case over Dieppe.
Same for the US pilots when they first met the Doras in their Spits.
It also pretty obvious from these accounts that fighter bombers usually suffered losses from attacking fighters.
That's perhaps the result of them flying lower, and being destructed by their mission objective but perhaps, most fighter bomber pilots had not converted but had gone straight into bombing trainning and had little experience dogfighting.

Chuck_Older
08-29-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Might want to check out "Woodbine Red Leader" by George Loving, jr., as well

Ace with the 31st, flying Spit Vs and P-51Bs. He retired a Lt General. I have his P-51B "Ginger" skin someplace...


I have a Ginger skin myself. Do you happen to know which skinner did yours? Mine has no name in the properties although its maked as Mtl effect by Leadspitter and panel rework by Fury.

Its defo from the IL-skins days.I get weird about skins with no author.

P.S. sorry for the hijack but good threads branch into more things of intrest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the skin I have! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif And I get a message that says bluenosedbastards.com is down when I try to go there... CanonUK did some killer B model skins, i don't know if he did any 31st ones though

Udidtoo
08-29-2005, 05:26 PM
I also thought mine was a CannonUK but he always marked his as such and its not listed here.http://www.canons-skins.com/

Lots of other goodies though. I think between the 109's and 190's alone I added another 35 or 40 skins to my collection.

Been wondering lately if he's ever coming home. Got an Email on June 7th saying he and his lady friend were leaving for a holiday. Site hasn't been updated since the 8th.If I recall he said hiking. Maybe theyliked the Alps so much they decided to stay.

DmdSeeker
08-29-2005, 07:15 PM
Very interesting, thanks for the link.

Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 07:53 PM
Another passage of note. We dont have these kind of problems in FB/PF.

Quoted from link above :

12 Spitfires of the 308 FS were escorting nine A-20s, six P-39s, and six P-40s. After one Spit returned to base early with a radio problem, the P-40s were attacked by eight FW-190s. The Spitfires attacked, with five of them getting firing opportunities. However, none of the guns fired due to sand Jamming them. There had been two days of blowing sand, and it was not an uncommon problem.


How frustrating would that be...I gather this means the Cannon AND the MG, I would have thought out of the 6 guns (guessing they are of type (C) armament, 4x303 and 2x20mm) it would be very hard to jam all 6 guns of 5 planes?

But judging by this quote obviously not!

Udidtoo
08-29-2005, 09:19 PM
Xiolablu3 since you graced us with such a good read if your intrested there is a very nice U.S. marked Spit at VpMedia's site if you were unaware.

Hosted at Flying Legends I believe

faelas
08-29-2005, 09:24 PM
I just finished Woodbine Red Leader today! What a freaky coincidence!~

I never even knew that any American pilots flew in Spits until reading it. I also never heard of Operation Frantic until that either. All in all I liked it a lot, but I kinda got the feeling it was 90% transcribed from his flight log and 10% his actual memories. Still a very cool read.

Can anyone give me that P-51B skin for Ginger please? After reading the book I'd love to have the skin!!!

Udidtoo
08-29-2005, 09:59 PM
PM me your Email and I'll send it when I wake up tomorrow.

GBrutus
08-29-2005, 10:10 PM
I know that Kristorf has done some decent Spits in US markings. There's a few Vc's and I'm sure he's done some Mk VIII'.

VW-IceFire
08-29-2005, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Intresting read. Ty

"The British thought it would be unwise to pit the P-39 against the Luftwaffe's better performing aircraft. In the opinion of many pilots that flew them, the P-39 was the worst fighter aircraft built by the Americans in World War II (26:--)."

I always chuckle when I see this in its many forms. FB would have cured them of this incorrect belief.

Don't blame Oleg if your favorite white starred plane doesn't live up to your expectations. Blame the lend lease for not giving 3000+ Ponies and Tbolts to Mother Russia. Everything gets better with enough red stars applied.

The pilots for the most part seemed reluctant to give up manuverbility in exchange for speed and altitude when the transistions began in almost any read on those 2 fighter groups. In that they would fit nicely into most servers at HL.
Sorry to de-rail further but yes the British didn't like the P-39 much...and two of the reasons included gasses from the nose .50cals leaking into the cockpit and a poorly functioning compass. These are two issues that seem minor but they were layed out pretty clearly in the RAF report. Also the P-39 was terrible above 10 or 15 thousand and thats what was important to them. In other respects, particularly turn, they found the P-39 to be quite a bit better than the 109E that they tested against and felt that Hurricane like tactics would allow it to win against the 109.

Udidtoo
08-30-2005, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Intresting read. Ty

"The British thought it would be unwise to pit the P-39 against the Luftwaffe's better performing aircraft. In the opinion of many pilots that flew them, the P-39 was the worst fighter aircraft built by the Americans in World War II (26:--)."

I always chuckle when I see this in its many forms. FB would have cured them of this incorrect belief.

Don't blame Oleg if your favorite white starred plane doesn't live up to your expectations. Blame the lend lease for not giving 3000+ Ponies and Tbolts to Mother Russia. Everything gets better with enough red stars applied.

The pilots for the most part seemed reluctant to give up manuverbility in exchange for speed and altitude when the transistions began in almost any read on those 2 fighter groups. In that they would fit nicely into most servers at HL.
Sorry to de-rail further but yes the British didn't like the P-39 much...and two of the reasons included gasses from the nose .50cals leaking into the cockpit and a poorly functioning compass. These are two issues that seem minor but they were layed out pretty clearly in the RAF report. Also the P-39 was terrible above 10 or 15 thousand and thats what was important to them. In other respects, particularly turn, they found the P-39 to be quite a bit better than the 109E that they tested against and felt that Hurricane like tactics would allow it to win against the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Fully agreed Icefire. That's just my own personal swipe at some of the errrrr generous modeling we see on a plane that met with somewhat less than enthusiasm from both U.S and RAF pilots, at least early on.

Whenever we have had guests on a -HH- server new to this simm or I run into someone newly trying their FB/PF wings at HL and we rotate through some coops into some P-39's there is usually a comment akin to "I am surprised at the performance of that Cobra"

I laugh and say "Ya, shame we didn't give the Soviet Union 3000+ of all our birds in real life. We would get to type Pwned much more often in game. I fly and enjoy all the models P-400 and up. I just don't tell myself that this is really accurate and right in line with all the data I can find on the .Net

The pilot reluctance I referred to was the U.S. pilots when shifted from Spits to other rides not the P-39's tested and rejected by the RAF. Been using English for 42 years now and I'm still a n00b.

REDHAWK_1
08-30-2005, 07:05 AM
Actually there was two American Fighter Groups that flew the Spit MKVb and Mustangs, The 31st Fighter Group and the 52nd Fighter Group which became the Yellow-Tails.
http://afmuseum.com/friends/journal/frj_213.html
http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/spitfire/spitops.html
As you can see that the 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups where the only two American Fighter Groups to fly the Spits. They were in fact Sister Squadrons. The 31st and 52nd FG share the same story and beginnings.

Xiolablu3
08-31-2005, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Xiolablu3 since you graced us with such a good read if your intrested there is a very nice U.S. marked Spit at VpMedia's site if you were unaware.

Hosted at Flying Legends I believe


Thanks m8, I will have a look although I am not from USA http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

thehuntress05
03-09-2006, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by REDHAWK_1:
Actually there was two American Fighter Groups that flew the Spit MKVb and Mustangs, The 31st Fighter Group and the 52nd Fighter Group which became the Yellow-Tails.
http://afmuseum.com/friends/journal/frj_213.html
http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/spitfire/spitops.html
As you can see that the 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups where the only two American Fighter Groups to fly the Spits. They were in fact Sister Squadrons. The 31st and 52nd FG share the same story and beginnings. <LI>

horseback
03-09-2006, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by REDHAWK_1:
Actually there was two American Fighter Groups that flew the Spit MKVb and Mustangs, The 31st Fighter Group and the 52nd Fighter Group which became the Yellow-Tails.
http://afmuseum.com/friends/journal/frj_213.html
http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/spitfire/spitops.html
As you can see that the 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups where the only two American Fighter Groups to fly the Spits. They were in fact Sister Squadrons. The 31st and 52nd FG share the same story and beginnings. You are forgetting the 4th Fighter Group, which was flying Spits well before the 31st and 52nd as 71, 121, and 133 Eagle Squadrons, and joined the 8th AF in September of 1942, flying Mk Vbs until March/April of 1943, when they were transitioned (kicking and screaming) into P-47s.

As a side note, the 31st FG in the Med wore the same letter codes as the 4th FG in the ETO, and I believe that the 52nd shared squadron codes with the ETO-based 78th FG.

cheers

horseback

VW-IceFire
03-09-2006, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Udidtoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Intresting read. Ty

"The British thought it would be unwise to pit the P-39 against the Luftwaffe's better performing aircraft. In the opinion of many pilots that flew them, the P-39 was the worst fighter aircraft built by the Americans in World War II (26:--)."

I always chuckle when I see this in its many forms. FB would have cured them of this incorrect belief.

Don't blame Oleg if your favorite white starred plane doesn't live up to your expectations. Blame the lend lease for not giving 3000+ Ponies and Tbolts to Mother Russia. Everything gets better with enough red stars applied.

The pilots for the most part seemed reluctant to give up manuverbility in exchange for speed and altitude when the transistions began in almost any read on those 2 fighter groups. In that they would fit nicely into most servers at HL.
Sorry to de-rail further but yes the British didn't like the P-39 much...and two of the reasons included gasses from the nose .50cals leaking into the cockpit and a poorly functioning compass. These are two issues that seem minor but they were layed out pretty clearly in the RAF report. Also the P-39 was terrible above 10 or 15 thousand and thats what was important to them. In other respects, particularly turn, they found the P-39 to be quite a bit better than the 109E that they tested against and felt that Hurricane like tactics would allow it to win against the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Fully agreed Icefire. That's just my own personal swipe at some of the errrrr generous modeling we see on a plane that met with somewhat less than enthusiasm from both U.S and RAF pilots, at least early on.

Whenever we have had guests on a -HH- server new to this simm or I run into someone newly trying their FB/PF wings at HL and we rotate through some coops into some P-39's there is usually a comment akin to "I am surprised at the performance of that Cobra"

I laugh and say "Ya, shame we didn't give the Soviet Union 3000+ of all our birds in real life. We would get to type Pwned much more often in game. I fly and enjoy all the models P-400 and up. I just don't tell myself that this is really accurate and right in line with all the data I can find on the .Net

The pilot reluctance I referred to was the U.S. pilots when shifted from Spits to other rides not the P-39's tested and rejected by the RAF. Been using English for 42 years now and I'm still a n00b. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It may indeed be a bit generous in some respects. Particularly the 1500hp P-39D-2 which is just a monster. But in some cases it seems about right...which P-51 ace thought the P-39 was a fine fighter in the right hands? I can't remember.

It seems to have been hated quite a bit but some pilots didn't hate it and thought it was quite good. More recently the spin stall has returned and fewer are flying the P-39. I still find it fun...its really low drag co-efficient really does help in a fight.

Its a strange one...pilots comments don't seem to match...but it is sometimes hard to pin exactly why they disliked it aside from the spin stall (which the P-40 also had).

Anyways, this is about Spitfires. I guess we got off on a MTO discussion. Its a neat theater...I look forward to seeing more of it in the future. USAAF and RAF Spitfires alike.

Xiolablu3
03-09-2006, 10:39 PM
Geez this thread is nearly 1 year old, why did you resurrect it thehuntress?

willyvic
03-09-2006, 10:46 PM
VW-IceFire,
You have really got to start looking at the dates on these things. You just replied to an August 05 reply. Unless of course it took you that long to formulate your response. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WV

JG5_UnKle
03-10-2006, 02:32 AM
It wasn't all easy at the beginning either: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

28 Jun - Many accidents are being registered. The 308th cracked up four planes today, one turning completely over in a wheat field, but nobody was injured.
29 Jun - Lieut. Giacomini of 308 was killed in a crash today, apparently due to mechanical failure; he died on way to hospital.
9 Jul - Two planes cracked up.
10 Jul - Two Spits collided in mid-air today, but nobody was hurt.
14 Jul - Officers meeting in the morning. In the past 16 days, 21 planes have been destroyed or badly damaged, most of them by 308 Squadron. That's too many, and due to carelessness, says Col. Hawkins.
18 Jul - Lieut. Kerr of 309 was killed last night during an oxygen hop. It appeared that something went wrong with his oxygen and he blacked out, went straight in.

mandrill7
03-10-2006, 06:09 AM
Re the pilot opinions on the P-39: I think these should be taken in the context that pilot opinions could be very subjective and also very much driven by the theater of war the plane was to fly in and the tactical preferences of the flyers.

I've been reading a little about 5th USAAF in New Guinea. The elsewhere-loved P-47D was reviled and mocked in that theater. 1 squadron CO hated transitioning from P-38's so much, he ordered his men to stand and salute whenever a P-38 flew overhead, saying:

"Boys, show a little respect for a REAL fighter aircraft. Not that P-47 PoS we have to fly now!"

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-10-2006, 06:21 AM
Seen that before, it's a great read. I especially like these two anecdotes:

"One of my fellas was shot down over Anzio beachhead, Major Thorsen, one of my squadron commanders. He had to force land on the beachhead, and as he was going down with his engine puffing smoke and pouring oil, and looking for a place to set down, for some reason he didn't want to bail out. An ME-109 pulled up alongside him, skidded down to his speed, or approximately that in sort of a slip, and saw that he was going to have to land, and saluted him, and flew away, rather than shooting at him. This is the last piece of chivalry I ever heard of in air combat (28:--)."

"I had on another occasion, Just a few days following that, chased a German to the deck in a 109, and he was hit many times and was smoking. And going along, being very slowly overtaken by me, and I was Just about out of ammunition, too, when suddenly he rocked his wings, in the old school signal of saying, "OK, you win, I've had enough", and pulled straight up in the air to a thousand feet or so, pushed over, and bailed out. I often wondered, did he really mean to give me, and is that the same old signal that we used when we were dogfighting with each other for play? When you'd get on another man's tail he'd rock his wings and say, "OK, that's enough, I'm breaking it off". I think it was. I think he was saying, "OK, no need to shoot any more, I'm bailing out" (28:--)."

Bearcat99
03-10-2006, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Might want to check out "Woodbine Red Leader" by George Loving, jr., as well

Ace with the 31st, flying Spit Vs and P-51Bs. He retired a Lt General. I have his P-51B "Ginger" skin someplace...

An excellent read..

This was good... thanks Xiolablu... there was also a pilot in the 99th... I believe it was Fred Hutchins.. I will have to check... it was either him or Bob Williams.... who like the pilot in the HBO movie flew Spitfires. I thought that was just movie hype untill a few weeks ago when I was talking to a group of the original Airmen and they said that yes indeedy... that part was true in the movie.

MrBlueSky1960
03-10-2006, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
Great reading. Recommended. Thank you.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif God, I thought something terrible had happened to you L_F... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Greenie was only saying last night, where's that L_F got to... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

What are you on, GD rationing... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Xiolablu3
03-10-2006, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
Re the pilot opinions on the P-39: I think these should be taken in the context that pilot opinions could be very subjective and also very much driven by the theater of war the plane was to fly in and the tactical preferences of the flyers.

I've been reading a little about 5th USAAF in New Guinea. The elsewhere-loved P-47D was reviled and mocked in that theater. 1 squadron CO hated transitioning from P-38's so much, he ordered his men to stand and salute whenever a P-38 flew overhead, saying:

"Boys, show a little respect for a REAL fighter aircraft. Not that P-47 PoS we have to fly now!"

This is true of the game and real life WW2.

I was flying last night, full real but with map icon online and there was a guy killing everything with a P51D saying it was the best Red aircraft in the game at the moment.

Definitely different to what many people think about the current P51 model.

I guess its depeneds what you are fighting and what tactics you are using. The Amercian pilots got to love the P47 after initially hating the transition from Spitfires. The dive and straight level speed allowed them to catch fleeing FW190's for once.

MrMojok
03-10-2006, 04:20 PM
On the note of comparison between the Spit and the US aircraft, there is a fine book called "Tumult in the Clouds" by James Goodson. The guy was on a ship bound for Europe that was torpedoed by a U-Boat... he then asked to join the RAF, and was politely advised to try the RCAF. He went to Canada and joined there, flew Spits, then later Thunderbolts and Mustangs.

He flew in Blakeslee's group.

Grue_
03-10-2006, 05:37 PM
Tnaks for the link http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif


which P-51 ace thought the P-39 was a fine fighter in the right hands? I can't remember.

Chuck Yeager loved the P-39, is that who you mean?

Tumult in the Clouds is a great book! I loved the story about Hofer flying with his Alsation on his lap. Goodson was training a new pilot when he saw a Mustang flying nearby with only a dog visible in the cockpit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

horseback
03-10-2006, 07:37 PM
Any serious study of the Western Allies' combat use of the P-39 in the early war indicates that it was not used to its strengths, poorly supported in terms of maintenance, and thrown into bad situations because it was all that was available at the time.

In actuality, it was quite competitive below 12-15,000 ft (depending on model/who you talked to) with almost anything in the air until late 1943 (the glaring exception being the FW 190). The problem was that it became associated with the early failures in the minds of the USAAF's pilots, and its reputation never recovered -- in the West.

In the meantime, the Brits had transferred most of the Airacobra MK Is they had to the Soviets almost as soon as it was practical, and the Russians were soon delighted with it (not least because it had a working heater and radio). They found a lot of use for it, and preferred it to the larger (and therefore less fighter-like) P-40. US Lend-Lease representatives were shocked when the Soviets asked for more P-39s instead of a number of 'better' P-40s, but did not complain. We needed and wanted those P-40s for ourselves.

cheers

horseback

Bearcat99
03-10-2006, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Grue_:
Tnaks for the link http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">which P-51 ace thought the P-39 was a fine fighter in the right hands? I can't remember.

Chuck Yeager loved the P-39, is that who you mean?

Tumult in the Clouds is a great book! I loved the story about Hofer flying with his Alsation on his lap. Goodson was training a new pilot when he saw a Mustang flying nearby with only a dog visible in the cockpit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah it was Yeager.... he was one heck of a pilot.. he probably could have flown a Buick.