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enemyace
11-26-2004, 06:25 PM
Have to say I was disappointed pretty much all the major air war in the SW Pacific was left out of this game, which is to say pretty much half the Pacific Air campaign.

Some of the most important (and intense) aerial history in the Pacific occured here - the B-25 low level strafing campaigns up the whole coast of New Guinea (Rabaul, Bismark Sea, Wewak, Hollandia, Nadzab, Biak) as well as the highest scoring fighter aces in the US Air Force became legends here - **** Bong, Tommy McGuire, etc. And then the whole Philippines Campaign - Kamakaze's in the Leyte Gulf, Taiwan? Nothing. The saga of the 5th AF and 13th barely get a cursory nod. Cripes, we don't even get a crack at Yamamoto's plane like we did in the old "Aces of the Pacific." Speaking of which, some developer (hint) should dust off that old title a get a look on how to design a real dynamic campaign.

What a shame.

My advice to Oleg and Co.: get cracking and finish up the SW pacific! PLenty of great stuff to cover here - skip bombing, low level strafing, parafrag bombing, kamakaze's, etc.

Zneg1
11-26-2004, 08:31 PM
I know! Leyte Gulf would have been intense as well as the Dec 8th bombing of Sangley Point,Clark field and Subic bay in the Philippines right after Pearl Harbor. Also what about when McArthur came back from leyte and push up Luzon?

What about those Japenese transports carrying american prisoners of war that was sunk by allied planes thinking they were japanese troops from Manila?

Oh the Rabaul thing is a whole game in itself I think. But you know this requires a lot of research to get these campaigns going and also we might not have all the planes yet that we need for historical accuracy on these shores.

VW-IceFire
11-26-2004, 10:08 PM
On the other hand, we have Okinawa, Midway, Marianas islands, Wake, Tarawa, and several other vitally important maps already in the game.

I agree, Rabul and more of New Guinea would be great and can be great possibly in the future. Until then, good fun to be had elsewhere.

Tater-SW-
11-26-2004, 10:25 PM
Most of the maps are good for only a few days of fighting though.

Western NG would have made more sense than Eastern since there was more to and fro fighting. Buna wasn't active all that long as a IJ base.

tater

sopwithkennel
11-26-2004, 11:19 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif I would like to see them make the Owen Stanley Ranges more a of a mountain range in the PNG map than a slight hump. The Online mountains map looks more real than this one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

HotelBushranger
11-27-2004, 12:10 AM
yeah mate! how bout some RAAF PNG missions, with Kittyhawks and Beaufighters. Finished reading a book about the Kokoda Campaign a few weeks ago, bloody awesome. Kittyhawks became "Tomorow Hawks", and when they finally landed, they came under ground fire. But that might be because the previous day some Zeros came, and the aussies there thought they were freindly, and started dancing round! lol till the Zeros started strafing. lol but anyways. also read a bit bout a beaufighter strafing some ships, then came along and strafed aussies, coz of changing lines and stuff. i highly recommend EVERYONE reads this, us aussies had some pretty f****** **** leadership, not bloody fair.KOKODA by Peter Fitzsimons, read it.

sopwithkennel
11-27-2004, 03:01 AM
There are both a Beau and a Kittyhawk campaign with PF.

sapre
11-27-2004, 03:23 AM
Did you notice that there is a line in pf_messagene.dat file in DGen folder saying
<LeyteBr>(*U*) < >
<LeyteVictoryDb>(*U*) < >
<LeyteDefeatDb>(*U*) < >
<LeyteDb>(*U*) < >

<LeyteBr>(*JA) < >
<LeyteVictoryDb>(*JA) < >
<LeyteDefeatDb>(*JA) < >
<LeyteDb>(*JA) < >

does this mean Leyte map wasn't completed before the release and it's going to be in the patch?

DuxCorvan
11-27-2004, 05:00 AM
How about some Aleutians and some bad weather?

Or a little China map for those AVG fighters?

How about some Dutch action?

Maybe even a China faction for the 'merged' installers to make use of Polikarpov fighters against some Nates or Claudes -still not in the game- in an early scenario -for the sake of variety and original simming?

Yeah, I know. Never ever. Why making new things when we can do the same as ever... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Dunkelgrun
11-27-2004, 05:13 AM
Yes I'd love to see more maps, and , dare I say it, 'improvements' in some of the ones we have. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
1C have such a small team of developers though that I expect that they're severely pushed for time to do anything.

So Oleg, although my expertise is in map research, hire me and teach me terrain modelling and I'll make some more maps for you!
Gi's a job! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pettera
11-27-2004, 05:36 AM
All in all there is quite a lot to play around with already.

A statement like: "Have to say I was disappointed pretty much all the major air war..." is in my humble opinion not very linked to reality. There are already lots of important theaters. We that have been playing IL2 for some time, know that there will be thrown more candy at us in the future. Oleg and Co. as a history of delivering patches including fixes, eye-candy, new maps, and new planes. Often in significant doses.

So rather than being disapointed with all that is not there (WWII was a global war), enjoy the existing possibilities and look forward to upcoming releases.

The variation the complete FB+AE+PF installation offers is tremendous and I doubt anybody has explored every possible scenario and even every aircraft.

Petter

PS. Lets hope you get everything you want in the long run.

DuxCorvan
11-27-2004, 05:40 AM
I think the main problem is that map making tool is not property of 1C. They have only a few very restricted licenses, which allow them to make only just some maps, because they have to pay a kind of fee for the use of the program, or something like that.

That's what I understood, or something similar, when the devs explained it a lot of time ago. I don't know the details and could be wrong, tho.

pettera
12-21-2004, 01:54 AM
I think 1C own and have developed the tool themselves. The problem is that others are not allowed to use the tool because it is a tool not meant to be used by others. The user interface is probably not very simple and there are probably a lot of bugs they haven't needed/bothered to sort out. Finally, I guess the manual is terrible/not existing.

The Normandie maps where made by others for an add-on called Battle over Europe (http://www.justflight.com/en/(41i2cg45ceysbhm3q5oxry55)/index.aspx). The deal was that 1C got the maps for free and they were included in a free add-on/patch for AEP. I think the experience was that 1C had to put a lot more effort into it than they had planned.

Now, Ian Boys is developing two new maps for Northern Europe (Courland and Murmansk) but I think it is in cooperation with 1C and will be included in a future add-on for FB+AEP+PF. He has posted a few screenshots in the forums lately.

Petter

FF_Trozaka
12-21-2004, 04:54 AM
Gotta be more maps coming... alot of japanese planes flying over Owens Stanley Range flew out of Rabaul i believe. Lot of action in and around Rabaul, it should be included. Would love to see China too. Heres hoping!
S!

HotelBushranger
12-21-2004, 06:44 AM
haha i cant be bothered re-writing it, so ill just copy and paste:

ahh here found it!:
Personally, PNG should be very detailed, as well as Darwin, Northern Territory, as well, yeah im an Aussie and the Pacific Theatre was the only Theatre of Operations in WWII where Australian men flew in Australian Squadrons led by Australian officers, helping Australian soldiers on the ground. Port Moresby and Milne Bay are of specific notice, as the P-40 and Hudson Squadrons there stopped the Japs from taking the Milne Bay Airfield, thus being the first Japanese defeat on land in the Pacific War. And these squadrons, along with the US 35th Fighter Group, with P-39s, with the Australian 39th Militia and Divisions of the 2nd AIF Battalion on the ground pushed back the Japanese from taking Port Moresby, and therefore giving them straight entry to Australia, even if they had no intentions of invading, I suppose noone will ever know. Also, for later in the Pacific Theatre, when the Japanese are pushed back, "Fortress Rabaul" should definitely be a big slice of work there. Lae and Finschafen are of mention, as is Bouganville, which enabled US bombers to maintain an aerial bombardment on Rabaul.

So to top it off, a very detailed PNG is a must, along with Darwin and Rabaul, with possibly other airfields. Probably impossible to put in game, but nothing wrong with wishing, is there? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeminoleX
12-21-2004, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
How about some Aleutians and some bad weather?

Or a little China map for those AVG fighters?

How about some Dutch action?

Maybe even a China faction for the 'merged' installers to make use of Polikarpov fighters against some Nates or Claudes -still not in the game- in an early scenario -for the sake of variety and original simming?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,yes,yes,agree 10000%

Capt._Tenneal
12-21-2004, 09:13 AM
Whew, people here have been reading too many books. If we have to model everything in these books (Yamamoto mission, Japanese merchantmen with Allied POWs, etc.) it will take years to develop this game. Others are right, there's enough to play with already. If developers include more, I will thank them, but I won't be demanding they include McGuire's 55th sortie exactly as it happened (or some such thing) in the game or else I will feel cheated. Jeez chill out ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Chuck_Older
12-21-2004, 09:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:

How about some Dutch action?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey hey!

Chuck_Older
12-21-2004, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by enemyace:
Have to say I was disappointed pretty much all the major air war in the SW Pacific was left out of this game, which is to say pretty much half the Pacific Air campaign.

Some of the most important (and intense) aerial history in the Pacific occured here - the B-25 low level strafing campaigns up the whole coast of New Guinea (Rabaul, Bismark Sea, Wewak, Hollandia, Nadzab, Biak) as well as the highest scoring fighter aces in the US Air Force became legends here - **** Bong, Tommy McGuire, etc. And then the whole Philippines Campaign - Kamakaze's in the Leyte Gulf, Taiwan? Nothing. The saga of the 5th AF and 13th barely get a cursory nod. Cripes, we don't even get a crack at Yamamoto's plane like we did in the old "Aces of the Pacific." Speaking of which, some developer (hint) should dust off that old title a get a look on how to design a real dynamic campaign.

What a shame.

My advice to Oleg and Co.: get cracking and finish up the SW pacific! PLenty of great stuff to cover here - skip bombing, low level strafing, parafrag bombing, kamakaze's, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried to register as 'enemyace' 'HansVonHammer', etc, waaay back when I was BBB462cid. I couldn't do it.

How'd you turn that trick, Hans? Lucky? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As far as 'missing' a lot of the air war in the PTO, check out the original Il-2 and Il-2 Forgotten battles.

Did Il-2 or FB try to re-create specific events? Unfortunately no. Why would PF try to recreate the PTO when no other update game or patch from 1C:Maddox does that? It is not one of their trademarks by any means- they just don't try to recreate specific events

This is one reason we have the Full Mission Builder. Historical scenarios can be built using the FMB, within reason. Sometimes a map needs to be substituted for one we don't have, but that unfortunately is a limitation of the (now aging) game engine

Another reason 1C:Maddox Games is (hopefully!) making "Battle of Britain"- new game engine

J_Weaver
12-21-2004, 09:23 AM
The biggest problem with the maps in PF is their limited size. Yes I know some say there huge, some say there too big. What would be great would be to the part of NG we have now on the same map as Guadalcanal and New Britian. Then another NG map. The same goes for many other areas in the Pacific. But I don't think its possible. I was told a while back that the game engine couldn't handle maps that large. We can always hope.

DRB_Hookech0
12-21-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

Did Il-2 or FB try to re-create specific events? Unfortunately no. Why would PF try to recreate the PTO when no other update game or patch from 1C:Maddox does that? It is not one of their trademarks by any means- they just don't try to recreate specific events

This is one reason we have the Full Mission Builder. Historical scenarios can be built using the FMB, within reason. Sometimes a map needs to be substituted for one we don't have, but that unfortunately is a limitation of the (now aging) game engine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Chuck you are half right. Let me explain. I hear that the maps are limited in size due to land mass, or something. Being as no one will confirm or deniey that, these boards will be clogged with requests for this and that map.

Ok, so with the maps we have, how do we go about creating the air war in the PTO after the Allies took G'canal? The entire contested area from mid 43 until mid 44 is missing. Midway took the legs out from under the IJN but the reduction of Rabual and the fight up from G'canal broke the back of the IJN and IJA air arms. This was the Japanese first team that was ground to dust around Rabaul. Areas that units like the Blacksheep and the Jolly Rodgers and others cut the heart out of the air arms of the Japanese.

Hell the IJN lost 2 entire fleet air arms around Rabual in mid 44, thus rendering the offensive operations of the carrier divsion moot.

With the FMB, even the late G'canal map is useless for 99% of air operations from mid 43 on, unless you are only fighting a ground war. I know IL2 in its foundations is more about air to mud than any thing else, but be honest....we all fly this for the air to air.

The maps after the late G'canal and NG map are areas where there was limited air combat, of short durations, against the Japanese 2nd and 3rd team. Why do you think they went kamikasi in late 44? They had limited experenced air crews left. As far as the later maps go...these were very limited in the air campaign. Maps out of FB do not show this type of limitation because your for the most part over land at all times. Rivers and roads end up all looking the same. But in the PTO for the imersion factor, you need to be able to navigate from one island to the next, and fight a campaign from one island to the next. In PF, at this time we are very limited with what we can do.

With all that has come to light in the past week, I am not holding hope out for anything in PF. I was sold an add-on marketed as a full bore PTO Sim, and promised extra content in a patch due to disk space limitations. I'm not looking for additional airframes to fly or be AI, but I am EXPECTING content to complete the PTO map wise.

Blackdog5555
12-21-2004, 02:19 PM
I think it is completely idiotic to suggest that it is ok to sell us empty maps and/or incomplete maps expect the community to finish the game. Iwo, for example was fought with the Japanes completely under ground. there was some air to air but mostly US Planes (B-24s i think)flew in to bomb the bunkers. there was some air to air but very little. Tarwa wa the same. How do we recreate ir campaigns out of land battles. and yes, toward the end of the war you could fly around NG for a month and not see one Zero. Doesnt make any difference. All this bull about "memory problems" or " limited software lease/licence to build maps" is goofy beyond the pale. The game was bum rushed unfinished into sales with the promise that it would be finished with a patch. Look, CFS2 had all the maps. And with amazing mod maps to boot. The Defence of Darwin was a free addon that was terrific. The Cactus War at GC, etc. Cant have the Mariana turkey shoot or the air/sea battles of Leyte Gulf without the basic maps. I play offline mostly and i expect the game will be finished. This game was adverised as a Sim that was to focus on bombing. So far there is very little to bomb. Its like having the BoB and leave out a map of Britain. I expect to see the maps in the near future. I would be shocked if they never get released. I would pay extra for high resolution tiles with historical accurate detail. (some turquoise lagoons would be nice too)

t0n.
12-21-2004, 02:50 PM
I accept that the engine is incapable of creating a 1:1 scale Guadalcanal through Rabaul Map. I also accept that that's a bloody long way and I wouldn't want to actually fly a Corsair from Munda to Rabaul anyway (hours!!!)...

What I really want - and it would address both issues - is a quarter scale, or eighth scale map that represents the geography. Give me islands the correct shape with the airbases in the correct place and I'll be a happy camper.

Yes its unrealistic that a Wilcat could fly from Guadalcanal to Rabaul on half a tank of gas... but I'd rather have that than nothing. Same story for New Guinea. The whole island on one map in quarter scale would be awesome thank you very much.

IMO.

Lewicide
12-21-2004, 03:56 PM
Neeeed Rabaul Map for raids from west coast to east coast.

SeminoleX
12-21-2004, 07:27 PM
DRB_Hookech0

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I was sold an add-on marketed as a full bore PTO Sim, and promised extra content in a patch due to disk space limitations. I'm not looking for additional airframes to fly or be AI, but I am EXPECTING content to complete the PTO map wise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If there are ever any lawsuits filed I have a hunch it will be over an issue like this rather than by a disgruntled Grumman.

Lawreta
12-21-2004, 09:38 PM
I have a philippine girlfriend and come a lot in the Philippines. I say it would be very hard to create a Philippine map 'cause it is about 7000 islands big! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
But d.a.m.n what beautiful girls they have there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Latico
12-21-2004, 09:54 PM
There are a lot of the island chains that were left out such as the Marshalls, Truk, Ulithy, and others that would not require huge map areas.

As far as more missions and campaigns, I don't care if the dev's don't make another one. Just furnish us the tools to do them ourselves. We have enough people with the historical knowledge that know how to use the FMB to build tons of missions. Heck we might even want to have a little competition in seeing who can build the best missions.

Latico
12-21-2004, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lawreta:
I have a philippine girlfriend and come a lot in the Philippines. I say it would be very hard to create a Philippine map 'cause it is about 7000 islands big! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
But d.a.m.n what beautiful girls they have there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No doubt, the Philipines would have to be done sectionally. Possibly 8 or 10 parts. Dutch Indies would be another problem area. Formosa and Mainland Japan, too

SeminoleX
12-22-2004, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lawreta:
I have a philippine girlfriend and come a lot in the Philippines. I say it would be very hard to create a Philippine map 'cause it is about 7000 islands big! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
But d.a.m.n what beautiful girls they have there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a Filipina wife and 3 half Philippino kids.Her father's house in Magalang was appropriated by the Japanese area commander December 1941-1945. Then the U.S. arrived and the American commader appropriated it for another year before it was returned....along with national independence.

Making a Phillipine's map caused no problem for other FS. I was flying Nates against Clark Field's P-40s (and vice versa) way back in the early 90's with A.O.P.

BTW...if you go to the Philippines check out the Kamizaze museum in Angeles City...if it is still in operation.

Chuck_Older
12-22-2004, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DRB_Hookech0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

Did Il-2 or FB try to re-create specific events? Unfortunately no. Why would PF try to recreate the PTO when no other update game or patch from 1C:Maddox does that? It is not one of their trademarks by any means- they just don't try to recreate specific events

This is one reason we have the Full Mission Builder. Historical scenarios can be built using the FMB, within reason. Sometimes a map needs to be substituted for one we don't have, but that unfortunately is a limitation of the (now aging) game engine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Chuck you are half right. Let me explain. I hear that the maps are limited in size due to land mass, or something. Being as no one will confirm or deniey that, these boards will be clogged with requests for this and that map.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...I never said word one about the map size

aminx
12-22-2004, 12:53 PM
why cant we have an up to date world map like in CFS2?you just clicked the map of choice in mission builder and you were there.
aminx

SeminoleX
12-22-2004, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aminx:
why cant we have an up to date world map like in CFS2?you just clicked the map of choice in mission builder and you were there.
aminx <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Concur!!!!

Even a blank world map. Moders would soon enough fill in the empty spaces.

That was a favorite feature of mine with the CFS series. Plug in the proper lat. and long....and there you were.

Tater-SW-
12-22-2004, 03:20 PM
t0n, i don;t think it is impossible at all to have a 'canal to Rabaul map. According to Ian, populating the land area with objects, towns, airfields, etc is the limiting factor. That means land-area more or less.

You could get the whole slot in without using more land area than the NG map, or close, anyway. Much of the area would be intractable jungle as well. Cover it with forest and forget about it. No roads, no trains, few villages on the coast.

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/Maps/the_slot.jpg
Yellow is the hawaii map in size, but the land area is a little more than NG, only with fewer roads, etc.

That map would be more useful than the rest combined for campaigns. It would cover the early raids, the invasion, and prosecution of the Guadalcanal campaign until early 1943. It would allow the later campaign up the slot, and the reduction of Rabaul, including navy raids from CVs.

tater