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patch_adams
06-14-2004, 10:16 PM
no more dispersion. I have the patch.

patch_adams
06-14-2004, 10:16 PM
no more dispersion. I have the patch.

heywooood
06-14-2004, 10:21 PM
*****cillin should remove it - err...what?

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Spectre-63
06-14-2004, 10:22 PM
Patch -

I just grabbed one that's 18Megs with 22 files - can you crosscheck against yours? For obvious reasons, I don't wanna install this one (even though the filenames, etc look legit and it passed a virusscan) if it's not the real deal.

Thx!

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Athosd
06-15-2004, 03:42 AM
That's the one Spectre-63. This version does appear to have rifled .50cals. However be warned, it has a few warts and is extremely unlikely to be the official release.
The one I noticed straight away was no customisation for AI planes in the QMB (button clicks but nothing happens).

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Cajun76
06-15-2004, 04:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Athosd:
That's the one Spectre-63. This version does appear to have rifled .50cals. However be warned, it has a few warts and is extremely unlikely to be the official release.
The one I noticed straight away was no customisation for AI planes in the QMB (button clicks but nothing happens).

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I copied my FB folder to another drive and installed the patch from FighterJerks. No problems, the .50s seem fixed, and I didn't notice the warts that Athosd saw. I could outfit the AI just fine, with loadaouts, fuel, and AI expirience. Seems fine to me, but your milege may vary.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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Athosd
06-15-2004, 04:32 AM
Just checked the QMB again - man I'm an idiot (slaps back of head); the AI flights I couldn't configure had 0 planes in them lol.

Just as well I'm not a beta tester eh?

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Huxley_S
06-15-2004, 05:12 AM
Whether they are "fixed" or not is a matter of opinion. They are certainly different!

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Cajun76
06-15-2004, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huxley_S:
Whether they are "fixed" or not is a matter of opinion. They are certainly different!

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http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Well, they don't seem to have the shotgun effect @ only 500m now. I set up a QMB with a friendly B-17 and opened fire behind him at 1000m after setting my convergence to 1000m. I could actually hit him. I paused the action and zoomed the veiw around. The spread seems much better now, more in line with the evidence presented elsewhere on the forums and historical accounts I've read. They had too high a dispersion before. So they seem "fixed" now, to me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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What if there were no hypothetical questions?

patch_adams
06-15-2004, 09:58 AM
screw you naysayers. The damage is the same you just probably arent used to accurate machine guns and arent hitting your target. People used to the 'shotgun' effect will think the gun was nerfed because they just cant aim. I can get kills at .7 and do significant dmg at .8

Huxley_S
06-15-2004, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>after setting my convergence to 1000m<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is 1000m convergence historically accurate?

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1.JaVA_Razer
06-15-2004, 10:28 AM
huxly I belive it was,it was just setting it to "boresigted" thus meaning no convergence at all

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Amanda_Hugnkiss
06-15-2004, 11:14 AM
You get kills at .7 and .8 with a 1000 convergence. Hell I don't even pull the trigger till the target is less than .2 from my plane. It take more skill to shoot a close in apponent than it does when you are so far back they don't know you are there.

Bull_dog_
06-15-2004, 11:36 AM
The dispersion is way down but I haven't tested agains VVS and axis guns yet to see how much.

At first, I thought the .50's got porked...very little damage. After playing awhile, it is harder to hit with them (as it should be) but when hitting, the damage seems similar to what it was... now whether that is correct or not is debatable.

After playing awhile I'd say the Spitfire now turns gooood, the .50's have less dispersion but are probably weaker...maybe the 20mm's too. Its just hard to tell at this point. I was testing the P-38L...does anyone think the roll rate is increased? Seems a little snappier but I've had the hopeful power of suggestion hit me before.

Capt._Tenneal
06-15-2004, 11:53 AM
THey fixed the fifties finally

"Yes, we believe the fifties are the best too ! "

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Dawg-of-death
06-15-2004, 11:57 AM
50 Whining and 50 spam will not end.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huxley_S:
Whether they are "fixed" or not is a matter of opinion. They are certainly different!

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Hoarmurath
06-15-2004, 12:00 PM
wait for them to discover that the bullets disapear at 1000m....

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WUAF_Boxer
06-15-2004, 12:04 PM
I do think that the 20mm's power had decreased a bit. This may be true for all guns though.

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VW-IceFire
06-15-2004, 12:09 PM
Well its quite a change and its going to take some getting used to. Overall it means you must aim more precisely but it also means that you can more effectively lead your targets...especially at oblique angles. It works really well against Zero's...you can hit from near headon passes with a P-38 and score a kill or severe damage where before you might have not even landed a shot despite aim.

On the other hand, for those who sprayed alot...the .50cals will be less effective for them since you need virtually the same time on target. Its not uber and anyone who thinks it is...well lets not go there. Its just very different and it feels quite a bit more right...at least in relation to other machine guns present.

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RedDeth
06-15-2004, 02:12 PM
they tightened the dispersion by about ten times. but its not shredding planes ten times more.

oleg weakened the damage model of the 50s. so as to not uberize them.

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Diablo310th
06-15-2004, 02:37 PM
RedDeath..I ahve to agree. The dispersion seems right now compared to other guns...but damage seems alot weaker. Maybe all guns have been weakened. I did a QMB against an He111. Hit it 3 times at convergence in teh right wing with 2 sec bursts each time. All I got was 2 smoking engines. Yes it went down but........

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KGr.HH-Sunburst
06-15-2004, 03:18 PM
Diablo give me guncam footage where they shoot off wings from He111 in 1-2 bursts?

Its AI you know how it goes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
IMO the 50cals are very strong just try them on a 109 190 and youll see it takes a good burst to take down a human player or atleast cripple him beyond fighting
nothing wrong with the damage

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Amanda_Hugnkiss
06-15-2004, 04:02 PM
Yea... And I have seen gun cam footage of a Fw190 emptying every MG and cannon round into many parts of a single B17 and nothing happened. Except he ran out of ammo. Maybe the 111 footage you saw included a lucky shot you didn't. It does happen sometime, you know.

BS87
06-15-2004, 04:49 PM
Change for the .50s is good, but it doesn't bother me. Besides, i only use them to wound opponents, and slow them down until i get closer where my Hispano takes over. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

Now, if the 20mm loses its ability to saw the tail/wings off a 109 in &lt;5 hits, then we will see.

Menthol_moose
06-15-2004, 05:08 PM
Thanks to the team for finally fixing it up. Cant wait to try the P38 where the dispersion is important for good shooting.

Atomic_Marten
06-15-2004, 05:08 PM
That is for sure good news for me, although I'll wait 'till official version. Then I may enjoy my P-40 campaign over Leningrad with new guns. Doesn't matter if they are little weaker http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bull_dog_
06-15-2004, 05:34 PM
Well fixing the dispersion to relative equality with other similar weapons was a start. Now all mg's of that caliber can be tuned to the damage models accordingly. With dispersion all messed up, in order to get the same effect as the ubs, the energy had to be greater...now that isn't necessary and the debate over weapons destruction can begin.

Based on what I read and the unending debate over cannons or mg's between US and Britian, I long since came to the conclusion that kill results were close enough between the weapons system in real life that nothing was changed by either side...in fact the .50's stayed on the Sabre in Korea.

I have always felt the killing power of .50cal mg's is greater than is portrayed in this sim. The part that is missing is how difficult it is to hit the target...that has been best simulated by FB imho, but there are no G's to contend with, no fear, no adrenaline (well sometimes), no fatigue and no arm crunching/leg aching manuevers on the controls like in real life.

Because of books I've read, footage on camera, shows, video etc... I have the opinion that the .50's are undermodelled for the most part in this game and that the ease of hitting the target is overmodelled...don't know how to change that though.

Killing a target with 6 .50's around convergence wasn't hard once you hit the target(single engined fighters)...it was hitting it that was the problem. That is the thing that seperated many of the great aces... besides eyesight, instinct and flying ability. There was real dispersion in guns, but the relative differences between guns in the game needed to change....if only I knew how the Jap, USSR, US and German .50's were tuned from an energy aspect...that would be real interesting.

The .50's have been turned down in power... I think the 20mm's did too. AI behavior is way different too. I got behind an Me 109 in my lightning and I was out of mg ammo. I crept up real close (AI didn't bug out like he didn't know I was there). I put a burst in him...nothing....so I put another burst in him...still nothing...the third burst got him flaming. Not the usual scenario with the 20mm cannon.

If I was real careful and held the spray on the aircraft I was able to kill well and often, but more care had to be taken.... seems to fit my picture of reality well...hitting the target at or near convergence should be the challenge, not worrying how powerful the .50's are! They were plenty powerful in real life, just how many hits could a pilot get while manuevering for his life.

Consider this... 6 .50's firing about 700 rpm...about 11 rounds/second/gun. A half a second burst puts almost 40 .50 cal slugs into a small area at convergence...if that area is a wing or cockpit or engine...lights out!

In the FB realm...especially online, a half second burst used to pi$$ off your opponent like an angry hornet but rarely do any real damage....you had to stay with him if you could. Fast planes with big guns rule in cockpit on servers....my hope is that if I sneak up behind a player and hit him at or near convergence for a half second that he is down or at least hurting. In real life pilots often had longer bursts, but not necessarily hitting the whole time. If that happens on line, I would be satisfied the guns are right on.

lbhskier37
06-15-2004, 06:16 PM
Bull_dog, I think you got some stuff a little mixed up. In FB right now the .50 is super powerful, I am guessing to offset the bad dispersion. Right now usually one or two bullets will end a 109s day, no matter where you put them. This works fine for good pilots that wouldve landed 40 rounds in ya if dispersion was right, but for people who spray and pray from 800m and land one or two stray bullets in you to end your flight, its ****. So I am really happy the dispersion issue is fixed, it should be more enjoyable flying with them and against them.

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"Due to the unbelievable inadequacy of Oleg's .50s the Germans have a HUGE advantage.
All they do is dive from above and in one pass cripple your plane with three or four mk108 hits." Col_Tibbetts

Huxley_S
06-15-2004, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bull_dog, I think you got some stuff a little mixed up. In FB right now the .50 is super powerful, I am guessing to offset the bad dispersion. Right now usually one or two bullets will end a 109s day, no matter where you put them. This works fine for good pilots that wouldve landed 40 rounds in ya if dispersion was right, but for people who spray and pray from 800m and land one or two stray bullets in you to end your flight, its ****. So I am really happy the dispersion issue is fixed, it should be more enjoyable flying with them and against them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't this also mean that the average US plane now carries enough ammo on board to down about 50 enemy planes?

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Menthol_moose
06-15-2004, 06:28 PM
"Right now usually one or two bullets will end a 109s day, no matter where you put them"

lets not get too carried away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BS87
06-15-2004, 06:30 PM
if 1-2 .50s as they are now (2.01) take the fight out of a 109 90% of the time, then my 20mm hipsano can sink the armoured ships.

Bull_dog_
06-15-2004, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lbhskier37:
Bull_dog, I think you got some stuff a little mixed up. In FB right now the .50 is super powerful, I am guessing to offset the bad dispersion. Right now usually one or two bullets will end a 109s day, no matter where you put them. This works fine for good pilots that wouldve landed 40 rounds in ya if dispersion was right, but for people who spray and pray from 800m and land one or two stray bullets in you to end your flight, its ****. So I am really happy the dispersion issue is fixed, it should be more enjoyable flying with them and against them.

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"Due to the unbelievable inadequacy of Oleg's .50s the Germans have a HUGE advantage.
All they do is dive from above and in one pass cripple your plane with three or four mk108 hits." Col_Tibbetts

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't feeel mixed up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

lol actually I fly all the aircraft and I find the early 109's vulnerable but the late ones are pretty tough overall for an inline engined aircraft. At least that is my impression. The Jug, Lightning, La and Ki's are tough...the Fw has been softened up (at least pre patch).

The point of my whole post was I had the opinion that .50's are very powerful in real life and I explained why I felt that way. The hard part of killing an aircraft is hitting the target...not the power of the mg's. I think this aspect (hitting the aircraft) is near impossible for a sim to recreate due to the forces involved....but at least the dispersion is better and the target is harder to hit...my few experiences on QMB lead me to believe that both the .50's and 20mm's(at least on the lightning) has been reduced. I haven't flown enough to say the mg's are good or bad yet...I seem to get similar kill results, but I have to be more precise with my aiming....that seems historically accurate to me being that most of the great aces were excellent at gunnery. I know Bong says otherwise, but he may have been being modest...I don't think a pilot racks up 40 kills in an aircraft with tight dispersion like the lightning without having some degree of skill...he was a backwoods wisconsin boy who new how to lead a target.

I am extremely happy with the dispersion, but undecided about the power of the weapons so far. The debate will likely rage, but for the record, I believe the power of mg's to be undermodelled and the ability to hit aircraft overmodelled...but then again if real WWII pilots had as many hours of gunnery practice and flying as I have on this sim, hitting the target might not be as hard as I think it to be.

Statistically speaking, I have racked up 72 kills on one server while losing 24 virtual lives and expending tens of thousands of virtual bullets...while only flying something like 12 hours. There were many more virtual pilots with way better statistics.
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lbhskier37
06-15-2004, 08:20 PM
I am exagerating a bit, but the point is in 2.01 a single .50 round does almost as much damage as a 20mm round. If you go offline and start shooting stuff with the .50s with arcade on you will see it usually doesnt take too many rounds to cripple stuff. Just for all you guys that are going to call me a luftwhinner, I am not saying you shouldnt be able to saw wings off with .50s, you should, but not with the dispersion of 2.01. It should take a whole lot of bullets converging on that wing to saw it off. If 2.02 is how I have heard, I think many will w thebe very happy, except maybe the people who get by on spraying from 800m and hoping for a lucky kill shot.

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BennyMoore
06-15-2004, 09:08 PM
I have not yet downloaded the patch because I don't trust leaked things.

Now, I have no problems making kills with the fifties. I make them just fine. However, one or two rounds will not do the trick, unless you hit the pilot or engine. At point blank range (one to three plane lengths away) with my P-40E's six fifties, I can saw off a wing with a burst of about four seconds (you can't concentrate fire because of the dispersion). What usually happens, though, is that your bullets cripple the plane by hitting it many times in different areas, no matter where you are aiming from. So, instead of endeavoring to get on his six, I usually cripple a plane with repeated quarter-second bursts made as opportunity arises, in other words, every time they cross my sights (allowing for lead, of course). This happens in scissors', dives, and the like. I find it actually easier to make kills this way than by shooting long bursts point blank when you are on their six.

But, all this is beside my point. My real point is that my problem is not that the fifties are ineffective, it's that they are inaccurate. You can call me an Ameriwhiner all you want. You'll be wrong; I fly both American planes and German. In fact, "my" plane is a BF-109 G-2. Now those machine guns make the American fifties look like Howitzers. I've never once seen them do structural damage at all - they're only good for hitting pilots and engines, and scaring people. So, I am not an Ameriwhiner. I feel that the fifties are wrong, but they are not undermodelled. They need to be changed, not made more powerful. Moreover, I feel that the fifties are a lot better off than the German machine guns of the same or similar caliber.

Of course, if they are corrected now as several people here suggest, then my problem with them is gone. I don't care if it's easier or harder, as long as it's more realistic. That is my entire attitude toward the game, and my only regret is that I will never know for sure because I've never flown and shot with these thing in real life.

BS87
06-15-2004, 09:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lbhskier37:
I am exagerating a bit, but the point is in 2.01 a single .50 round does almost as much damage as a 20mm round. If you go offline and start shooting stuff with the .50s with arcade on you will see it usually doesnt take too many rounds to cripple stuff. Just for all you guys that are going to call me a luftwhinner, I am not saying you shouldnt be able to saw wings off with .50s, you should, but not with the dispersion of 2.01. It should take a whole lot of bullets converging on that wing to saw it off.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please tell me how to test the 1 bullet does the dmg of a 20mm theory. I have yet to see anyone be able to fire 1 SINGLE bullet from a .50cal. I agree with the sawing wings off part, but you have to take into account the ROF of the .50s. they fire *very* quick, and thus the small burst you are seeing is alot of lead.

Athosd
06-15-2004, 09:35 PM
Leaked 2.02 has the .50s about right IMHO.
They shoot straight and individual rounds don't appear to be overpowered (as far as I could tell anyway). With good aim 4 guns is quite enough to take down a fighter.

But being as this is not an official update its all subject to change. I certainly hope this version of the .50s makes the final cut.

Cheers

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

HuninMunin
06-15-2004, 10:05 PM
Good Point Benny, but modell the MGs performance
close to .50`s would end in a massacre for everyone involved. You know what I mean. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Diablo310th
06-15-2004, 10:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sunburst-97th:
Diablo give me guncam footage where they shoot off wings from He111 in 1-2 bursts?

Its AI you know how it goes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
IMO the 50cals are very strong just try them on a 109 190 and youll see it takes a good burst to take down a human player or atleast cripple him beyond fighting
nothing wrong with the damage

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sunburst.....what I was saying is that several bursts into an engine should catch it on fire according to current FB damage models. I like teh dispersion..it's alot tighter and will make people have to shoot more accurately now and at convergence. It jsut seems that teh hitting power is weaker now. I wsan't trying to say that 3 burst should saw a wing off..jsut do more damage than waht appeared to. I'm looking forward to teh official patch and flying online to see what it will do. Are you referring to the DM as it is now in 2.01?? Yes..a good burst into a 109 or 190 now will do alot of damage.

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LuftLuver
06-15-2004, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lbhskier37:
I am exagerating a bit
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would say you are.

Please post a track that shows us how a single .50cal has taken you out from 800m away. I will check back here often. I also wish to see this test of a single .50cal doing the damage of a 20mm. Track please. This game/sim is about perception, and you may have perceived wrong.

By the way, your inclusion of another player's comments in your sig shows poor taste and bad form. Perhaps he posted this in a moment of frustration? Maybe one day you will be in someone's sig?

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