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View Full Version : Going a bit TOO far? ***SPOILERS***



gsosolid
11-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Am a massive fan of Assassins creed. Seriously, I am.
I loved the Animus idea, thought it was completely original (although it probably wasn't) and loved everything else which was sci-fi bout the game. The pieces of Eden, pushing it a TINY bit. Still loving it thought, and I grow to not mind it.

On Wednesday, I finished Assassins Creed II.
BANG. In comes End of the world via The Sun. Out goes Templars (well they lose some importance as some is now concentrated on the sun (its still sounding extremely stupid))
and...
In comes Super-humans.

Seriously. Am doing my BEST to like it. But I can't? I can't help but think "wtf"?
Its clever in a way. But it was like.. out of the blue? No mention of gods anywhere through the first game and 99/100s of the second.

Who else agrees maybe they are now pushing it a bit?

***spoiler tags added

idrenegade
11-29-2009, 06:53 PM
Nope, I'm completely with them on this one. But I see your point about the Templars basically losing their spot. Cause unless both groups are trying to stop the end of the world from happening, it doesn't fit with the Templars vs Assassins. Cause they wont on purpose end the world, and why would they try to stop someone from stopping the catastrophe. And how would them trying to stop it help their goal of everyone working for them?

zeno64
11-29-2009, 06:53 PM
vidic from ac1 mentions "from those who came before" when he talks about where we get today's technology

An_Idea
11-29-2009, 06:57 PM
the only thing i dont like, is how they made the person look, i just dun like it at all

Edengoth
11-29-2009, 06:59 PM
Submit to the well-dressed glowly hologram lady, An_Idea. Submiiiiit.

Silhouelle
11-29-2009, 07:01 PM
Templar's were probably just the humans who decided to wage war against those who came before, steal their technology, etc. Add in a sappy romance story of a 'god' falling for a human and start the assassin lineage. :b

Hope I'm entirely wrong on that second part though, talk about cliché. xD

An_Idea
11-29-2009, 07:01 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif ah well i did like the explanation of how SPOILERS <span class="ev_code_WHITE">they werent gods, they were just smarter and better, i personally liked the superhuman part. just not the glowy hologrammy lady http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif</span>

Dudebag
11-29-2009, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by gsosolid:
Am a massive fan of Assassins creed. Seriously, I am.
I loved the Animus idea, thought it was completely original (although it probably wasn't) and loved everything else which was sci-fi bout the game. The pieces of Eden, pushing it a TINY bit. Still loving it thought, and I grow to not mind it.

On Wednesday, I finished Assassins Creed II.
BANG. In comes End of the world via The Sun. Out goes Templars (well they lose some importance as some is now concentrated on the sun (its still sounding extremely stupid))
and...
In comes Super-humans.

Seriously. Am doing my BEST to like it. But I can't? I can't help but think "wtf"?
Its clever in a way. But it was like.. out of the blue? No mention of gods anywhere through the first game and 99/100s of the second.

Who else agrees maybe they are now pushing it a bit?

If you dont like it you dont like it. Im probably not the biggest fan of Assassins Creed, I enjoyed the games but always thought the story was a bit cheesy. The plot does have a few clever elements to it but as a whole it always did come off a bit cheesy, the game was good but hardly among the best video games have to offer.

That being said I think that Assassin's Creed 3 will ramp the cheese factor up a notch pulling out every lame trick that most trilogies use in the 3rd movie/game.

We should expect to see the Templars and the Assassins team up to combat the bigger threat with the bad guys turning sorta good guys as seen in: The Matrix (the machines and Neo team up to stop agent smith), Austin Powers (Mini Me turns into Austins sidekick to stop Dr Evil who also turns good at the end of the film), Halo (the Elites turn good guys and help Master Cheif stop the covenant and the flood), Pirates of the Caribbean (this really cheesed me off, in the first Barbosa was just so evil and cool) and Gears of War 3 (We have no information on this game yet but you damn well know as good as I do that the locust and the gears will form a truce to take down illuminated locusts).

On a side note when I heard that Desmond had to stop some disaster involving the sun for some reason I was reminded of that simpson episode where Millhouse becomes Radioactive Man's sidekick.

"Watch out Desmond, the sun is exploding again"

ALTAIRXEZIO
11-29-2009, 09:11 PM
I love the story... it is prolly my favorite video game storyline... hand in hand with MGS... but i also loved Chariot of the Gods (awsome book)... which is basically similar to storyline in assassins creed

Deity Matrix
11-29-2009, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Dudebag:
If you dont like it you dont like it. Im probably not the biggest fan of Assassins Creed, I enjoyed the games but always thought the story was a bit cheesy. The plot does have a few clever elements to it but as a whole it always did come off a bit cheesy, the game was good but hardly among the best video games have to offer.

That being said I think that Assassin's Creed 3 will ramp the cheese factor up a notch pulling out every lame trick that most trilogies use in the 3rd movie/game.

We should expect to see the Templars and the Assassins team up to combat the bigger threat with the bad guys turning sorta good guys as seen in: The Matrix (the machines and Neo team up to stop agent smith), Austin Powers (Mini Me turns into Austins sidekick to stop Dr Evil who also turns good at the end of the film), Halo (the Elites turn good guys and help Master Cheif stop the covenant and the flood), Pirates of the Caribbean (this really cheesed me off, in the first Barbosa was just so evil and cool) and Gears of War 3 (We have no information on this game yet but you damn well know as good as I do that the locust and the gears will form a truce to take down illuminated locusts).

On a side note when I heard that Desmond had to stop some disaster involving the sun for some reason I was reminded of that simpson episode where Millhouse becomes Radioactive Man's sidekick.

"Watch out Desmond, the sun is exploding again"

As good of a point about trilogies as that is, I have to disagree about the story being cheesy...

Perhaps some of the concepts have been overused in scifi and fantsay books and MAYBE movies, but it is definitely an awesome story for a game. Especially since none of the story in the AC series is unrealistic(yes, you can quote this). Yes, the game is a videogame, but nothing in the story is impossible, and it's set in the real world and real history. Which in turn makes it all theoretically plausible....meaning it has a better story than total fantasy or total scifi games(and a lot of other media) in general.

Dudebag
11-30-2009, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by DeityMatrix:
As good of a point about trilogies as that is, I have to disagree about the story being cheesy...

Perhaps some of the concepts have been overused in scifi and fantsay books and MAYBE movies, but it is definitely an awesome story for a game. Especially since none of the story in the AC series is unrealistic(yes, you can quote this). Yes, the game is a videogame, but nothing in the story is impossible, and it's set in the real world and real history. Which in turn makes it all theoretically plausible....meaning it has a better story than total fantasy or total scifi games(and a lot of other media) in general.

What I mean about the story being cheesy is they make your enemies out to be total duchebags. For instance in AC1 all 9 of your targets are total ********s and are totally unbelievable as antagonists, they have no redeeming traits whatsoever painting a typical white versus black story line.

The story in my opinion would have been so much better if the story was painted in a shade of grey putting doubt in the players mind whether they are doing the right thing by killing these guys and whether or not these guys were really misunderstood and their actions if seeming harsh really were for the good of mankind.

Altair was also unbelievable as a Protagonist, at the start he showed total disregard to the creed braking it when there was no point to braking the creed other than to show of his own arrogance. Then halfway through the game he has his redeeming moment and realises how much of a duche he has been and he and Malik become BFF dispite the fact that Malik totally hated his guts for getting his brother killed.

The Desmond and the Animus story was the only redeeming factor of the AC1 story that wasnt cheesy and I actually thought was pretty well done. It left you with the mystery of what Abstergo wanted with Desmond and why they were searching the memories of his ancestor leaving clues hidden in emails and such.

That all went out the window in AC2 when all of a sudden they turned Lucy into a hardcore kung fu assassin who swears like a trooper and having Desmond as "the chosen one" who they must train to be a kick arse assassin and is the only one who can save them from the templars and stop the sun from exploding.


Originally posted by DeityMatrix:
Especially since none of the story in the AC series is unrealistic(yes, you can quote this).

Yes I will quote that thank you. So none of the story is unrealistic? What about a magic orb that is responsible for most of the major events in our history and can control humans minds? I have no problem with games being unrealistic because most of them are. I think you mix up realistic and believable which I diddnt think Assassins Creed was believable as stated above near the start of my post.

Dont get me wrong I enjoyed the game but I just think the story is kind of cheesy and lame.

Deity Matrix
11-30-2009, 01:24 AM
Very well, Dudebag, very well. But consider this: Would you rather play a videogame about the badass, totally lucky, and always in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time hero, or the soldier that does well, never sees much action and retires to a desk job? That's an example of my point that games are about big and epic storytelling. The believability comes from the fact that you are forced to accept the story because the universe of the story plays out that way. i.e. Star Wars
And that's not even when you bring the bigger picture into play, such as predestination, and supernatural things beyond human understanding!

Of course those seem unbelieveable to the average 21st century youth and/or educated adult! Such is the nature of our hyper-technologized society!(and yes I made that word just now)

Perhaps you need to be reminded that 98% of the people on this planet, including all the people who have ever existed, believe in amazing supernatural things both in the heavens and on Earth. When you consider that, even if you are not a man of faith, then perhaps you can understand why the definition of realism is different to different people and has changed vastly from culture to culture throughout time.

My definition of realism is based on what I know to be true, and that doesn't mean I think it's unrealistic. That's what it comes down to, and that's how I'm sure anyone who believes in anything beyond his or her self sees this existence.


Edit: Another thing I forgot to mention about your various points.

The bad guys are too bad? I could go through history(including the Crusades) and name tyrants and dictators who had no redeeming qualities.

Black and White? To the contrary, throughout the first game, Altair questions what he is doing, knowing that they have good intentions, and, thinking logically, they DO have the right idea. Much like any assassin, spy, or executioner, Altair has normal human doubts.

Unlikely change of heart? Stories of redemption are the most common in history(if not the least respected) of real people and the changes they make due to experience, enlightenment, and/or outside intervention. These happen in people's lives every day. Mundane? Maybe. Unbelievable? Of course not.

The story being far-fetched? Religions, science, and history all contain stories and truths that seem to prove the addage that "the truth is stranger than fiction".

Overall, what it comes down to is that the story of AC presents somewhat CLICHED ideas and concepts, but certainly not cheesy in the sense of Ronald McDonald or some ridiculous children's character. Our lives and the stories we create are made up of these essential building blocks of our experiences and our history...which perhaps to you create a story of unlikely proportions, but to me simply reflects the world around us in a creative and fantastical way.

Such is my respect for what the creators of this piece of entertainment have done. To call it "lame" would be of utmost disrespect to the work put into it. That is why I must debate you, my friend, that is all.

m3rcer
11-30-2009, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by DeityMatrix:
Overall, what it comes down to is that the story of AC presents somewhat CLICHED ideas and concepts, but certainly not cheesy...

Agreed, but no complaints from me.

Kom0do_Drag0n
11-30-2009, 04:40 AM
I wouldn't get to drawn away from the end of the world.

I honestly think the 'last' AC will have some motherf*cking huge twist and we will be like "OH MY F*CKING GOD" in a good way.

Well I hope so. Ubi has put together a good story so far and I doubt they'd be stupid enough to let it go to something pathetic and off track.

Assassin_M
11-30-2009, 05:06 AM
my theory is that only the assassins know about this catastrophe and the templars dont <SPOILERS> <span class="ev_code_WHITE">so meanwhile the assassins search for the temples mentioned by minerva the templars just continue their plan for world domination</span>

GARNETsky
11-30-2009, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by Dudebag:
What I mean about the story being cheesy is they make your enemies out to be total duchebags. For instance in AC1 all 9 of your targets are total ********s and are totally unbelievable as antagonists, they have no redeeming traits whatsoever painting a typical white versus black story line.

The story in my opinion would have been so much better if the story was painted in a shade of grey putting doubt in the players mind whether they are doing the right thing by killing these guys and whether or not these guys were really misunderstood and their actions if seeming harsh really were for the good of mankind.

Altair was also unbelievable as a Protagonist...


De-lurking to comment on some interesting points. First off, I think it's dangerous to assume that setting up an arbitrary moral grey area will automatically make the story better. Incidentally, I think that was what Ubisoft was going for during AC's big reveal that Player-Altair was essentially being ordered to kill the wrong targets--people that satisfied Al Mualim's desire for power, not those that substantially threatened the creed itself. Now, if you don't think that was effective, that's fine, and I'd agree with you. I'd even venture that this is partially why Altair is hard to swallow as a protagonist. But I don't think it's an issue of it somehow not being "grey" enough.

I actually appreciated that the bad guys in the first game were "total ******bags", simply because that's not a perspective I ever experienced when learning about the crusades--whether it be in American public schools or in my informal education. Most history lessons were cut-and-dry dates and places according to the invaders, and even the single sympathetic, fictional book I remember being assigned in middle school was written from the perspective of a Western European. More so, I was surprised how difficult it was for me to turn off the "Good Lion" image of King Richard I had from Disney and Errol Flynn interpretations of Robin Hood when I encountered a less-than-perfect king in the game. Playing the game and encountering these jerks really foregrounded how absurdly pervasive this fluffy image of the crusades is in my culture.

For me, the ******baggery of the crusaders is precisely what made Assassin's Creed an interesting story. Sure, some of the storytelling mechanics needed ironing out, but the moral grey area was not a necessity thematically for me, and I suspect the lack thereof was good for a lot of other gamers in my situation.

(more on Altair: I also found him difficult to believe as a protagonist, and I had trouble reconciling my strange affection for him until the recent sequel. The codex really rounded him out in my eyes, so I can't complain about him anymore in the overarching story. In his starring role? Yeah, there's definitely something to be desired.)

Dudebag
11-30-2009, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by DeityMatrix:
Very well, Dudebag, very well. But consider this: Would you rather play a videogame about the badass, totally lucky, and always in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time hero, or the soldier that does well, never sees much action and retires to a desk job? That's an example of my point that games are about big and epic storytelling. The believability comes from the fact that you are forced to accept the story because the universe of the story plays out that way. i.e. Star Wars
And that's not even when you bring the bigger picture into play, such as predestination, and supernatural things beyond human understanding!

Of course those seem unbelieveable to the average 21st century youth and/or educated adult! Such is the nature of our hyper-technologized society!(and yes I made that word just now)

Perhaps you need to be reminded that 98% of the people on this planet, including all the people who have ever existed, believe in amazing supernatural things both in the heavens and on Earth. When you consider that, even if you are not a man of faith, then perhaps you can understand why the definition of realism is different to different people and has changed vastly from culture to culture throughout time.

My definition of realism is based on what I know to be true, and that doesn't mean I think it's unrealistic. That's what it comes down to, and that's how I'm sure anyone who believes in anything beyond his or her self sees this existence.


Edit: Another thing I forgot to mention about your various points.

The bad guys are too bad? I could go through history(including the Crusades) and name tyrants and dictators who had no redeeming qualities.

Black and White? To the contrary, throughout the first game, Altair questions what he is doing, knowing that they have good intentions, and, thinking logically, they DO have the right idea. Much like any assassin, spy, or executioner, Altair has normal human doubts.

Unlikely change of heart? Stories of redemption are the most common in history(if not the least respected) of real people and the changes they make due to experience, enlightenment, and/or outside intervention. These happen in people's lives every day. Mundane? Maybe. Unbelievable? Of course not.

The story being far-fetched? Religions, science, and history all contain stories and truths that seem to prove the addage that "the truth is stranger than fiction".

Overall, what it comes down to is that the story of AC presents somewhat CLICHED ideas and concepts, but certainly not cheesy in the sense of Ronald McDonald or some ridiculous children's character. Our lives and the stories we create are made up of these essential building blocks of our experiences and our history...which perhaps to you create a story of unlikely proportions, but to me simply reflects the world around us in a creative and fantastical way.

Such is my respect for what the creators of this piece of entertainment have done. To call it "lame" would be of utmost disrespect to the work put into it. That is why I must debate you, my friend, that is all.

You miss my point. Its not that the Enemies are too evil its that we are supposed to believe that Atair is having doubts as to whether or not these guys are doing the right thing when we can quite clearly see that these guys are total tyrants and couldnt give a stuff about a better world they only cared to rule it, I mean the first target slashed a man to death with a knife just because he told him his demands are unreasonable.

A good game should be able to make you feel what the character you control would be feeling, If Altair is having doubts about whether he is doing the right thing we should have doubts about whether or not he is doing the right thing. Lets take MGS2 for instance, Raiden is aboard Arsenal Gear and is as naked as the day he is born he is obviously confused as hell and he keeps getting codec calls from the colonal saying weird stuff like "I hear its amazing when the purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on hari-kiri rock. I need scissors! 61!" and even tells you the mission is a falure and to turn off the console. Odds are if youve played this you were probably just as confused as poor old Raiden

Assassin's Creed didnt make you feel the doubt that Altair was feeling, how could we when we saw the evil they did just because they could. This in turn made the game pretty much black and white, sure Altair had doubts but I sure diddnt and through that my perception of the game was black and white, black being the Templars and white the Assassins.

Of course I have nothing against a good story of redemption and in Assassins Creed sure it was ok, its more how quickly Altair and Malik go from enemies to friends, it doesnt show how their relationship grows and eventually they become friends, its more they are enemies and then boom in the blink of an eye they are good friends.

Ok youve got me on the "the truth is stranger than fiction" as there is a lot of things science cant explain (scrub the part that says religions have truths that cant be explained as science has prooved a lot of the contents of religion to be false) but lets take ghosts for example, we cant say for sure that they dont exist but we would hardly call them realistic and I have nothing against a story being far-fetched.

But I suppose that all means nothing because when it all comes down to it you enjoyed the story and I diddnt. We both have different tastes and nobody can argue with that.

MPSai
12-02-2009, 06:43 PM
Eh, I'm kind of resigned to the fact that the sci-fi plot is kinda weak and over the top. All I cared about in the first game and this one were the stories taking place in the past (though I got a little more engaged in the present-time storyline this time around, but it was still corny.) But this is also exactly why an all-future Assassin's Creed is very unappealing to me, unless they work to make this jumbled mess of ridiculous conspiracy and doomsday theories into as good and crafted a plot as the one's surrounding Altair and Ezio.

ProjectXigis
12-02-2009, 07:29 PM
I guess I'm the only one that likes Altair's change of heart when it first surfaces?

Of course, I didn't feel like he did, having doubts (though I did understand his point of view). I only cared about stopping the bastardos. Anyways, I felt particularly proud of him at that point.

Sorry for getting off-track. What was the main point of this thread?

OSnailsO
12-02-2009, 10:23 PM
I hated the over excessive Sci-Fi bit... The reason I liked AC1 was because it could have happened, it was so accurate and so into history, and adding that bit of Sci-Fi made my imagination wonder... But now it's too fake... I will play just to find out the ending... I am hopeful for change

Trace007
12-02-2009, 10:30 PM
I already knew what the ending would be because I've heard about the theories before.

So, I liked it.

SWJS
12-02-2009, 10:55 PM
we can quite clearly see that these guys are total tyrants and couldnt give a stuff about a better world they only cared to rule it I'm guessing you didn't pay that much attention to the story then.

the Templars and the Assassins both want the same thing: Peace in all things.

The Templars believe the only way to achieve such is to rob mankind of free will.

The assassins believe peace should be learned, not forced.

The templars only killed and punished to show discipline. If your boss killed your best friend for being lazy and skipping work instead of firing him, then I'm pretty sure you'd get to work a lot faster from then on. It was about control. William never stole food, he rationed it for when the new world was created. Tamir took in poor, deseased people and sent them to Garnier. There they had food, water, shelter, and a doctor who let them smoke hash. There were some instances where people like Abul, Majd, and Sibrand killed for pleasure, revenge, or out of paranoia, but most of the templars who joined the order believed they were doing good and sought peace. Robert even states he was keeping Altair from harm by opposing Al Mualim, and Al Mualim even states that he's given mankind an alternative reality that demands less blood, as opposed to the "phantom" gods they worship now that would retreat from the world as men slaughter each other in their names.

Though in AC2, Rodrigo and his men do seem to have more ill intentions than Robert and his men.

However, Vidic also states that they're indeed "building a better tomorrow".

I'd bet money that once the Templars learn of the impending doomsday, they'll probably form a truce with the assassins and work with them.

"I do not dispise his goal, I share it." "Never harbor hatred for your enemies Altair. Such thoughts are poison, and will cloud your judgement."

The templars may want to enslave everyone, but they want to do it for peace.

Lucy also states "Warren's not a happy man, I wouldn't even say he's a good man, but he saved my life."

I don't think a tyrant would save anyone, eh? Warren and his masters may be jerks, but at the end of the day, they really are all just human beings.

I though the story of AC was very meaningful. If anything was cheesy it was the fact that they chose the "Solar Flare = Bye Bye" theory as the bigger than templars bit, but it still works and is still good none-the-less.

It's better than asteroids, earthquakes, volcanoes, and floods. The sun is our most life-giving source of energy, and over billions of years it will grow in size and vaporize the earth, so nothing in the AC story isn't impossible. I think it shows us the truth about us: The humans are 90% jerks and some people want world peace.

I like it.

TrilliumNero
12-03-2009, 01:49 AM
Yeah..it kinda toook a turn for the crazy there. World polarities being reversed? Cataclysms? *smacks his forehead* AC III will likely not be on my 'to buy' list if it turns out to be an "Indiana Jones' style hunt for hidden temples with devices to save the world. *yawn*. AC 1 suggested that some of the artifacts could be used to various effect (massive mind control, in that one), so why not have Templars and Assassins racing to recover the remaining artifacts (as seemed to be the case in AC), to see what faction ends up with the most world-domineering toys?

Desilets is creative, no doubts there. But Ubisoft needs to reel him in a bit. Not just say 'Pat, we can't do this technically', but also 'Pat, this is a stupid idea. Sorry, but no. Rethink it.'