PDA

View Full Version : Strongly Urge Flyable Wellington for B OF BRIT



leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 03:26 AM
The Wellington is necessary for demanding night missions and would be the natural opponent for the 110. The Germans will have two medium bombers, the Heinkel and Ju 88, and they will be available for challenging day and night missions. If it comes to a choice between a flyable BR 20 and a Wellington---the Wimpey is by far the most appropriate for the period. The RAF is overdue for a classic night bomber! I applaud the Blenheim---thank you very much.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
05-19-2006, 03:50 AM
Although I agree that a british heavy bomber would be a welcome addition at some stage. I am not so sure that these aircarft were all that active during the actual Battle of Britain and are unlikely to be top of the list for the initial roll out.


Still I agree that it will be nice to see them in future additions.

leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 04:33 AM
Heaven sakes! The Wimpey was the primary and best Bomber Command medium from 1939 right through the Battle until superceded by the heavies in 1942-43. The planned Ic version for B OF BRIT could be used from 1940 to 1942 and in the Middle East, too. Really, this airplane is indispensible for the B OF BRIT period---would be like doing the Luftwaffe and leaving out the 111 or 88. As for active, practically every night they were hammering the Sealion ports (murderous targets, by the way) and the Wellington flew on the Berlin raid which changed the course of the Battle. It was the star of the classic Bomber Command film TARGET FOR TONIGHT. If the Spitfire was Fighter Command's star aircraft in 1940, the Wellington was Bomber Command's in the same period. Really, it is sine qua non. Two more things: the Ic was used as a torpedo bomber in the Middle East, which adds an exciting mission to its portfolio, and it was also used as a sub hunter and missions could be devised to employ them with depth charges.

CHDT
05-19-2006, 05:04 AM
As a pilot point of view, an Hampden would be much more interesting.

Btw, what this sim needs, it's not tons of new flyable bombers, but new game ways of flying as a bomber pilot.

For instance, I would like to have online the possibility as a bomber pilot to lead a flight of AI bombers following my aircraft.

This would also be much more interesting for the fighter online pilots to have formations to attack, which would look more real than what we are seeing now in the game.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
05-19-2006, 05:05 AM
Fair enough, no need to get excited but if your talking about the period and not the actual battle itself, then you might as well ask for the Sterling as well? I am just saying that the initial roll out of the sim seems to be more focused around the Actual Battle of Britain i.e the defensive not offensive role of the RAF.

I am sure if possible and if someone is willing to take up the task of making these models then they will find there way into the sim.

ImpStarDuece
05-19-2006, 06:00 AM
Yes, but which Wimpey do you want flyable? There are so many to chose from:

Mk I with Pegasus X or XVIII with Vickers nose, ventral and tail turrets
Mk IA with the improved Fraser-Nash turrets
Mk IC with the additional Vickers or Browning LMG waist positions, no ventral turret and ability to drop a 4000lbs 'cookie'
Mk II with Merlin X engines, and similar layout to MK IC
Mk III with Hercules XI engines and Nash & Thompson turrets
Mk III with 4 gun Fraser-Nash20A rear turret

leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 06:01 AM
The Hampden would be infinitely more interesting, but that would really be asking for the moon. As a recent book about Bomber Command's role in the Battle reminded the public, the Battle was not all about fighters tearing into bombers, but also about the indispensible raids on the invasion ports which destroyed many of the craft being prepared for Sealion. Had the Germans been allowed to build up without interruption the more likely that Hitler would have attempted the invasion for which he had little stomach. Thus, the bombers matter, too, in a balanced sim about the RAF's role in the Battle. The Blenheim is an excellent start. The standard production model for the 1940 period was the Wellington Ic. Beaverbrook churned them out like hotcakes.

WWMaxGunz
05-19-2006, 11:40 AM
I don't know why they bothered attacking the transports as we've all been assured that the RN
could no way have not stopped any resupply of the decimated numbers who would have gotten
ashore and Sealion was doomed to failure even had the RAF been cut down.

leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 03:30 PM
The English were not going to take anything for granted. First of all, they were not sure their ships would have been able to operate in the Channel under possible Luftwaffe air superiority (the fleet had just been badly hammered by the Luftwaffe in Norway and Dunkirk cost them heavily in destroyers lost to German dive bombers). Next, they were not ready to resist an invasion since the army had lost so much equipment in France. Their best bets were to attrit the Luftwaffe and to wreck as many invasion barges as they were able in the Channel ports and that's just what they did.

JG52Uther
05-19-2006, 04:02 PM
Personally I think there is no point saying 'I want this' and 'I want that' at this stage.We dont know for sure what is flyable,and also what will come in patches/add-ons.I want a flyable Do17,but lets see what happens in the next few months. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 04:39 PM
Now is the best time to make a case for a desired aircraft. Once the sim is released it usually too late.

Viper2005_
05-19-2006, 05:18 PM
What aeroplanes made the original raid on Berlin (August 25th/26th 1940) responsible for the Germans switching from hitting airfields to bombing London?

leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 05:56 PM
Bomber Command sent out 79 Blenheims (not to Berlin), Wellingtons, Whitleys, and Hampdens to attack targets all over Germany that night (BOMBER COMMAND WAR DIARIES, Middlebrook, p78)---including Berlin. Only a handful chucked their bombs around Berlin---but this was all that was needed. Scored prestige hit of first magnitude. Goring had promised the English would never bomb Berlin.

Beaufort-RAF
05-21-2006, 06:31 AM
The Wellington would be a superb addition as a flyable.

The backbone of Bomber Command in the early years, played a vital part in the Med (as a conventional & torpedo bomber) and served over Burma.

They also had various specialized roles, that although not really suitable for the game, show what an important RAF aircraft it was.

In the context of the sim, one or two bomber variants covering both Europe and the Mediterranean would provide superb scope for campaigns and missions.

Although a Lancaster for example may sound exciting, a Wimpy would be FAR more useful and appropriate.

HotelBushranger
05-21-2006, 07:02 AM
I agree with a Wellington, but disagree in that it should replace the BR.20. The BR was the main Italian bomber, and without it like you said would be the LW with the He-111. Disregarding the proportion used, because saying the Italians don't matter is very ignorant.

p1ngu666
05-21-2006, 08:50 AM
the whimpy would be the best early raf bomber todo. the blehiem is dire.

Max, u shouldnt rely on others, plus in harbour the transports are much easier target than at sea

i also agree we need better systems for bombers...

leitmotiv
05-21-2006, 11:31 PM
I am not an RAF snob, but a flyable BR 20 is a flyable bomb truck which did not have an exciting career---as an Italian aircraft buff, I would infinitely prefer a flyable SM 79. The only reason to have BRs is so RAF fighters can maul them in B of Brit scenarios. The Wellington, on the other hand, flew some demanding and interesting missions, including torpedo bombing and tough night missions, which require more skill than flying the hapless BR 20. I just think it is a waste of a precious flyable aircraft slot.

Beaufort-RAF
05-22-2006, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the whimpy would be the best early raf bomber todo. the blehiem is dire.


It's extensive use by day and night in so many theatres and scenarios make the Blenheim the perfect RAF bomber to include (with the Wimpy next in line).

leitmotiv
05-22-2006, 02:58 AM
Flyable Blenheim IV absolutely necessary. Great choice. Their crews were sent on more "suicide missions" than any other RAF bomber---the "Channel Stop" air interdiction campaign against German shipping. Used by day and by night as bombers, flew the first recon mission over Germany, made the first attack on German soil in '39 (ports), were the primary attack aircraft in the Battle of France, one of their gunners killed the great Japanese ace Kato, fought in every theater, used as a long range fighter by day and by night---long overdue as a flyable.

HotelBushranger
05-22-2006, 05:01 AM
Fair enough leitmotiv, would like an SM 79 too but it wasnt in BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif But rgr on the Wellington thing. Still think the BR 20 should be in though, cr@p plane or not http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 07:22 AM
Well, HotelBushranger, I confess to being totally indifferent to the BR 20---I think it is a shoo-in as an AI target, but I think making it flyable is an error. If I were an Italian, I'd want a Breda 88 before a BR 20! Maybe it has some indefinable quality which I will discover when it comes available---maybe the new system will blast my brain's cables so well I won't givva hang about the Wimpey!

mynameisroland
05-23-2006, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
The English were not going to take anything for granted. First of all, they were not sure their ships would have been able to operate in the Channel under possible Luftwaffe air superiority (the fleet had just been badly hammered by the Luftwaffe in Norway and Dunkirk cost them heavily in destroyers lost to German dive bombers). Next, they were not ready to resist an invasion since the army had lost so much equipment in France. Their best bets were to attrit the Luftwaffe and to wreck as many invasion barges as they were able in the Channel ports and that's just what they did.

Please stop refering to the British as 'English' it infuriates the hell out of me.

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 08:20 AM
HAW! I lived in London for three years in the '90's and briskly was informed by every denizen of that sublime metropolis that to refer to them as "British" was no longer acceptable and to please use "English," thus, unless fashion has changed, and all my friends, BBC, the TIMES, EVENING STANDARD, the OED, and whatever, are having a huge secret joke at my expense, I'll stick with "English"!!!!

Frantish
05-25-2006, 09:48 PM
I completely agree with a Wimpey in BoB!

I mean, the DO-17z-10 needs a target! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BUt its a no brainer, no BoB sim will not be complete with out the Blen, WImpey, and the 3 LW bombers as a base!

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
05-25-2006, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
HAW! I lived in London for three years in the '90's and briskly was informed by every denizen of that sublime metropolis that to refer to them as "British" was no longer acceptable and to please use "English," thus, unless fashion has changed, and all my friends, BBC, the TIMES, EVENING STANDARD, the OED, and whatever, are having a huge secret joke at my expense, I'll stick with "English"!!!!

They were pulling your leg mate I would seriously not call anyone from Scotland, Ireland, or Wales and possibly even Cornwal English you may not seriously offend given that your not British yourself, but you sure wont get a christmas card.

leitmotiv
05-25-2006, 10:38 PM
As we would say in the States, duh!!!! I spent enough time in Cornwall to learn that it was best not to say you lived in London. As for the Welsh, Scotch, and Irish---I did not fancy ending up in the emergency center of a hospital by calling them English. You left out the Yorkshire "mafia" which uneasily coexists with the southerners!!!!

Aaron_GT
05-26-2006, 08:18 AM
As a pilot point of view, an Hampden would be much more interesting.

Much as it would a Wellington IC would be more appropriate.

With regard to the debate on the use of English I once heard someone refer to meeting an Scotsman, Welshman, and a Brit, by which they meant an English person. It made me laugh as the Scots and Welsh are British too.


You left out the Yorkshire "mafia" which uneasily coexists with the southerners!!!!

Yes, the Welsh are Welsh first, then British. The Scots are Scots first then British. Londonders are English first, then British. Yorkshiremen are Yorkshiremen first, then begrudingly English, and just about accept the concept of Britain as a necessary evil :-)

leitmotiv
05-26-2006, 11:11 PM
Frantish, I'm all for Do 17s---what red-blooded virtual pilot doesn't want to have a go at Kenley at nought feet with rockets shooting into the sky ahead of you, guns hammering at you from the ground, and Hurricanes tearing at you from behind? If this doesn't get your blood pounding, you better find another hobby! I look forward to cockscrewing in my Wellington with your Z-10 haring after me---or vice versa!

Almost everybody I knew in London was from Yorkshire. Got to the point I felt like buying a flat cap and a whippet.

DuxCorvan
05-29-2006, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Now is the best time to make a case for a desired aircraft. Once the sim is released it usually too late.

OK. Then, I want them all, Oleg. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Megile_
05-29-2006, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Please stop refering to the British as 'English' it infuriates the hell out of me.

lmao... you cranky noob.

leitmotiv
05-29-2006, 10:23 AM
The mothers of all Wellington models are scheduled for release in August of this year: Trumpeter 1:48 scale Wellingtons Ic and III---dig the test shot photos (yeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaa):

http://tinyurl.com/nw5qw

WTE_Pharoah
05-30-2006, 12:56 AM
From what I read, there was a disastrous Wellington day bombing mission to Germany that only succeeded in identifying how inadequate the Wellingtons defensive armament was, which prompted the shift to night bombing (I love the History Channel! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

yay for suicide missions!

ImpStarDuece
05-30-2006, 02:01 AM
Well, the RAF didn't exactly have a good time with ANY of its early daylight bombers. With 6-8 .303s in powered turrets the Wellingtons were as well armed defensively as anything else flying at the time, even the US heavies.

Of the 22 B-17Cs the RAF recieved in early Lend-Lease deliveries, they lost 8 in just 39 sorties, or a loss rate of greater than 20%. It was the initially high loss rate of a heavily defended, 4 engine day bomber that was capable of flying at 30,000 feet that soured the RAF on unescorted daylight missions for is own heavies as much as the losses of the Wellingtons and Hampdens.

RAF_Loke
05-30-2006, 02:31 AM
I love the Wellington, always has. So I hope that it will one day be flyable and not ai only.

leitmotiv
05-30-2006, 03:54 AM
There were three Wellington IA daylight missions flown in Dec '39 to try to hit German warships anchored or at sea (RAF Bomber Command was not allowed to bomb German land targets, except an isolated seaplane base, until 10 May 1940). Two of these missions were uneventful but one saw some of the Wellingtons cut down by 109 and 110 attacks. The Germans quickly discovered the Wellingtons were vulnerable to flank attacks (note this simmers---smart fighters don't make six o'clock attacks on bombers) because the turrets fore and aft and beneath could not cover the sides, and they hit them from this angle. The RAF learned several things: the Wellingtons which were destroyed were primarily from formations which had failed to keep together. They also discovered the Wellington's unprotected fuel tanks made the aircraft vulnerable to fatal fires. Immediately a program was put in action to fit the Wellingtons with self-sealing fuel tanks and armor. Free Vickers or Browning machine guns were mounted to cover the flanks. The retractable ventral "dustbin" turret (lovingly depicted on the Trumpeter model) was found to cut into the aircraft's speed without paying much of a premium so they were deleted. The mauling they received on this daylight mission put paid to daylight tactics for all but the Blenheims and the Battles until Bomber Command took delivery of their four-engine heavies in 1941. ImpStarDeuce got it right---the Wellington was a revolutionary bomber for the 1939-40 period. Power turrets were a real novelty and the Wellington had three (including the ventral "dustbin" retractable turret). Only the slower Whitley was comparable (it had the quad .303 tail turret which made it superior to the early Wellingtons).

leitmotiv
06-01-2006, 10:55 PM
I have to correct myself on the subject of the three Wellington daylight forays in Dec 1939. 3 Dec: 24 Wellingtons sortied. None encountered German big ships which they were hunting. One Wellington was surprised by a 109 (109 nearly clobbered the rear gunner who was ambushed by the fighter). All returned. The Wellington which deflected the 109 encouraged the powers that be to believe the Wellington's powered turrets made it invulnerable. 14 Dec: 12 Wellingtons sortied in bad weather searching for German warships. They were driven down to 200 feet by low cloud by the time they reached Schillig Roads and were hammered by warship AA and German fighters. Five were shot down and seven wrecks staggered back to England. Everyone was impressed by the Wellington's structural strength. An influential Air Staff Officer of Bomber Command did not believe fighters had shot down any of the Wellingtons and that tight formations would protect the Wellingtons from fighters. 18 Dec: 24 Wellingtons sortied (there were two early returns). They flew at 14,000 feet in perfect visibility, were picked up in a timely manner by German radar, and intercepted by up to eighty German 109s and 110s. The German fighters, having the gauge of the beast from previous encounters, declined attacking in the turret arcs and hit them from their unprotected flanks and made team attacks on individual bombers. Their preferred method: the classic high side attack. Ten of the 22 Wellingtons returned---three crashed trying to land. The Germans lost two fighters. The RAF hierarchy blamed the defeat on poor formation keeping.

darkhorizon11
06-02-2006, 10:56 PM
I concur. The BoB is mostly the realm of flyable fighters, especially on the British side. Not that there shouldn't be flyable bombers but fighters are still a priority. Maybe in a later patch we'll get the Wellington.

leitmotiv
06-03-2006, 12:44 PM
If night will be handled as well as advertised, players may find night bombers and night fighters a fascinating challenge. I can't wait.

Scrappy_D
06-06-2006, 04:48 AM
What happened to the Avro Manchester?

And btw, my father is welsh (with some irish thrown in), my grandfather is czech, my mother is english and whilest living in scotland many years ago i was adopted by my scottish friends parents .. so what does that make me ??? A hienz? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
06-06-2006, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
HAW! I lived in London for three years in the '90's and briskly was informed by every denizen of that sublime metropolis that to refer to them as "British" was no longer acceptable and to please use "English," thus, unless fashion has changed, and all my friends, BBC, the TIMES, EVENING STANDARD, the OED, and whatever, are having a huge secret joke at my expense, I'll stick with "English"!!!!

They were pulling your leg mate I would seriously not call anyone from Scotland, Ireland, or Wales and possibly even Cornwal English you may not seriously offend given that your not British yourself, but you sure wont get a christmas card. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

It does my nut when people refer to the nation of Great Britain as English. And I'm English, call a Scotsman English and your getting close to a Glaswegian kiss...AKA as a headbutthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

bazzaah2
06-06-2006, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
HAW! I lived in London for three years in the '90's and briskly was informed by every denizen of that sublime metropolis that to refer to them as "British" was no longer acceptable and to please use "English," thus, unless fashion has changed, and all my friends, BBC, the TIMES, EVENING STANDARD, the OED, and whatever, are having a huge secret joke at my expense, I'll stick with "English"!!!!

They were pulling your leg mate I would seriously not call anyone from Scotland, Ireland, or Wales and possibly even Cornwal English you may not seriously offend given that your not British yourself, but you sure wont get a christmas card. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and vice versa http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

leitmotiv
06-06-2006, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
As we would say in the States, duh!!!! I spent enough time in Cornwall to learn that it was best not to say you lived in London. As for the Welsh, Scotch, and Irish---I did not fancy ending up in the emergency center of a hospital by calling them English. You left out the Yorkshire "mafia" which uneasily coexists with the southerners!!!!

Xiolablu3
06-06-2006, 10:34 AM
The Wellington would be a better match with the He111 for map creation.

The bomb loads are practically the same.

I know its not so good for the actual 'Battle Of Britain' Scenario as the Blenhiem, but online many other theatres will be visited.

To make balanced games the Welly is a much better match.

flyinmick
06-08-2006, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
As we would say in the States, duh!!!! I spent enough time in Cornwall to learn that it was best not to say you lived in London. As for the Welsh, Scotch, and Irish---I did not fancy ending up in the emergency center of a hospital by calling them English. You left out the Yorkshire "mafia" which uneasily coexists with the southerners!!!!
Well, you can't have spent all THAT long in Britain if you didn't learn that "Scotch" is a drink whilst "Scots" are a people. Of course, since the tone of your posts is extremely arrogant, it's more likely that you just never bothered to learn.

flyinmick
06-08-2006, 01:16 AM
I'll agree that I'm looking forward to a Wellington. Provided that it doesn't have that stupid bloody ventral turret. It was next to useless and was installed on very few of the earliest Mk.1's since it was ineffective and caused weight and balance problems. All provision for it's installation was deleted from the Mk.1C and later varients.
Visit this link for more info.
http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/html%20pages/VIC...mber%20variants).htm (http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/html%20pages/VICKERS%20WELLINGTON%20(Bomber%20variants).htm)

leitmotiv
06-08-2006, 07:31 AM
"Dustbin" in action on 17 Dec 1939: see BOMBER COMMAND. Hastings. Dial Press, NY, 1979. Page 31. On all IAs and early production ICs. Visual tip-off for its presence: a quite visible vane fitted on the bottom of the turret which can be seen on the belly of almost all Wellingtons in 1939-40. I think it would be interesting to try one out. Easy enough to delete it from model for a later production IC. I am a bit of a Wellington "nut" and I made use of the RAF Museum's Reading Room to study documents on the aircraft in 1995. P.S. Two best descriptions of the December 1939 battles in Hastings above, pages 22-33, and in FLEDGLING EAGLES. Shores. Grub Street, London, 1991.