PDA

View Full Version : MS.406 & H-75 For sure, we should be gad to pay.



kalaluth
01-28-2005, 09:18 AM
Most of the WW-II is now covered by FB+EAP+PF.

As many thanks for it as desired. No limit! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Could you please, very please, do something for the Battle over France (a complete year, impossible to cover with present toolset).

OK, it is possible to do it from German side, with the small Ardennes and Normandy maps, but please, do something, from French side.

We do not even know if it will be available with BoB. I'm glad to be one of your support with this package, as far as my little influence permit it. But please, Sir, give us news...

However, many thanks for all

Philip

Jaws2002
01-29-2005, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kalaluth:

.... from French side.

Philip <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm... did they have AF? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Gros_boulet
01-29-2005, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kalaluth:

.... from French side.

Philip <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm... did they have AF? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes they did. If you want some information, look here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/frenchaces/m+avion.html

Sorry its in french but it gives you an idea of the aircrafts used by the french "armee de l'air"... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hope it helps...

3.JG51_BigBear
01-29-2005, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kalaluth:
Most of the WW-II is now covered by FB+EAP+PF.

As many thanks for it as desired. No limit! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Could you please, very please, do something for the Battle over France (a complete year, impossible to cover with present toolset).

OK, it is possible to do it from German side, with the small Ardennes and Normandy maps, but please, do something, from French side.

We do not even know if it will be available with BoB. I'm glad to be one of your support with this package, as far as my little influence permit it. But please, Sir, give us news...

However, many thanks for all

Philip <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fairly certain Oleg said that BOB would include battle of France aircraft and scenarios.

VW-IceFire
01-29-2005, 04:10 PM
He didn't say it would definately include but there is an effort that is semi-supported that is doing a France 1940 addon that may ship or be a part of an addon for BoB.

They are already building aircraft for the project.

There is also a Poland 1939 project of a similar nature.

Sig.Hirsch
01-29-2005, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Well yes they did. If you want some information, look here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/frenchaces/m+avion.html

Sorry its in french but it gives you an idea of the aircrafts used by the french "armee de l'air"... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hope it helps... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm surprised after reading your link , if i understood correctly the french pilots claimed :
183 victories for 130 a/c lost in Ms406 , 116 victories for only 46 lost in Dewoitine D-520 , 237 confirmed kills for 71 a/c lost in Hawk 75 etc..

Those figures are very good , i don't think it can be confirmed by German datas ,it might be a overclaimed (like all airforces stats) , it has to be verified , i didn't know the french pilots did so well with "inferior " planes ( except maybe D-520 ) , it's interesting .

I hope too , that BoB will include the France , Holland , Poland campaign , it would be great .

regards,

Gros_boulet
01-29-2005, 05:02 PM
I think you are correct: the numbers are probably a bit too optimistic. This might come from the fact that the french were counting their victories differently. Well, actually I don't know.
The fact is that only the D520 could match the Bf109. But few were avaible. The MS406s and especially the MB152s got slaughtered. The Hawk 75 performed quite well despite its inferiority to the 109. This might be partly explained by the fact it was flown by elite pilots.
But ,if I am not wrong, by the end of the may/june 1940 campaign, the french air force had lost more than 25% of its crew, most of them killed.

Zyzbot
01-29-2005, 06:08 PM
Another interesting read about this subject:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1985/sep-oct/kirkland.html

Gros_boulet
01-30-2005, 04:57 AM
Sorry but your link doesn't work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
01-30-2005, 08:56 AM
There is a Battle of France project being conducted by the France Simulation guys. There is also a Poland project being worked on, and these two projects could possibly be included in an add on to BoB entitled "Blitzkrieg" (pencilled title).

It is not 100% definate this will happen, but things are progressing with the respective teams working on the aircraft, etc.

Zyzbot
01-30-2005, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gros_boulet:
Sorry but your link doesn't work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm....odd...works fine for me.

BigganD
01-30-2005, 03:23 PM
Nice thread! Does anyone know if the 109D and 109H will be flyable in BoB?
(109E3-E4 will own every plane) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jeanba2
01-31-2005, 02:13 AM
Lot of work was done to cross french claims and german losses :
Between half and two third two third of the kills claimed by the french can be confirmed in German data.

triggerhappyfin
01-31-2005, 06:20 AM
The IL-2 engine sure have alot more to give!!

This kinds of addon´s have their market. I only hope it´ll be made some of them.

Give us more early war planes and maps! Personally I´m quite tired of the uberplanes of late war years.

kalaluth
01-31-2005, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
Personally I´m quite tired of the uberplanes of late war years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm glad to see that I am not alone, in my P-11c, Buffalo's and so on, awaiting flyable MS406, H-75, and why not others (Fairey Battle, Swordfish, Amiot 143, Po-631, Br-693, LeO-45...)

IIJG69-Niklaus
01-31-2005, 11:22 AM
Yes, by including french planes, lot of nations could have their AF "represented", Ms406 for finland, P36 for the american http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, H75 for france and finland; Dw 520 for france, germany, bulgaria ............. .
Moreover, externals are already done for the MS and H75/P36, "only" (notice the " http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) the cockpit...

triggerhappyfin
02-04-2005, 04:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IIJG69-Niklaus:
Yes, by including french planes, lot of nations could have their AF "represented", Ms406 for finland, P36 for the american http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, H75 for france and finland; Dw 520 for france, germany, bulgaria ............. .
Moreover, externals are already done for the MS and H75/P36, "only" (notice the " http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) the cockpit... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I think the MS406(compared with the Gladiator, witch got a pit) were used in greater numbers and for a longer period of time by the finns. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

What a pity nobody´s taken on the creation of a cockpit for it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
02-04-2005, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
The IL-2 engine sure have alot more to give!!

This kinds of addon´s have their market. I only hope it´ll be made some of them.

Give us more early war planes and maps! Personally I´m quite tired of the uberplanes of late war years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These add ons are not for the IL-2 engine but for the new BoB engine being produced.

It would be good to get more early war stuff for IL-2, but I doubt we'll get much.

TooCool_12f
02-05-2005, 06:49 AM
some claims went up to about 1000 planes... I've read that more or less 800 planes were lost for certain by the luftwaffe in battle of france...

they did their share pretty good, actually.. especially if you take into consideration that france, as most allied countries of WWI kept its aeronautical research at rest for quite a bit of time during late 20's and early 30's.

Zyzbot
02-05-2005, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCool_12f:
some claims went up to about 1000 planes... I've read that more or less 800 planes were lost for certain by the luftwaffe in battle of france...

they did their share pretty good, actually.. especially if you take into consideration that france, as most allied countries of WWI kept its aeronautical research at rest for quite a bit of time during late 20's and early 30's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Adolf Galland's authorized biography...German losses from 10 May to 25 June were:

1,389 aircraft, including 521 bombers, 122 Ju-87 Stukas, 367 Bf-109's and Bf-110's, 213 transports and 166 reconnaissance and liaison aircraft.

LeadSpitter_
02-05-2005, 09:40 AM
I wouldnt be glad to pay but I would like them flyable.

ms.406
and the p36 with the p40 pit from the beta makes me miss it so much and the h-75 too.

Especially for the pearl harbor mission most have a misconception that 2 p40s shot down 5 enemy aircraft but it was really 2 p-36's.

This can also give the french some planes which is needed badly, There is so many interesting skins used on the h-75 p-36 ms.406.

Gros_boulet
02-05-2005, 09:41 AM
By the way, does anyone know the differences between the cockpit of the P36 and the french version (H75). I heard the gunsight was different, but are there other things?
And what was the configuration of the finnish H75 (american like or french like)?

SkyChimp
02-05-2005, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gros_boulet:
By the way, does anyone know the differences between the cockpit of the P36 and the french version (H75). I heard the gunsight was different, but are there other things?
And what was the configuration of the finnish H75 (american like or french like)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, the throttle was backwards. You pushed it forward to decrease power, and pulled it back to increase it. Never seen a photo or real verification this was the case, but have read it in many sources.

LeadSpitter_
02-05-2005, 11:24 AM
HAWKS OVER FRANCE
The French campaign of 1939/40 was the Hawk's most significant combat role. It was second only to the Morane-Saulnier MS406 in numbers and was considered the best fighter in the French inventory with the exception of the Dewoitine D520 which entered service in the closing days of the campaign.

The French initially balked at buying the Hawk, considering it too expensive, but serious problems with the Bloch MB-150 gave them little option. Although the French ordered almost 300 Hawks armed with the Wright Cyclone (Hawk 75A-4) only six were delivered before the armistice, thus only Twin Wasp models saw combat.

The first delivered were 100 Hawk 75 A-1s with 950 hp R-1830-SC-G, similar to the prototype models for the USAAC. The Hawk 75 A-2, also numbering 100 machines, had R-1830-SC2-Gs offering 1,050 HP and mounted six 7.5 MM Browning machine guns, up from four in the A-1. The Hawk 75 A-3 mounted the PW R-1830-S1C3-G engine, similar to the -17 in the P-36C. Although 135 A-3s were ordered, only 60 reached France before the armistice. The A-4 mounted the 1200 HP R-1820 G205A Wright Cyclone engines, and would have been the most formidable Hawks to serve with the Armee De L' Aire, offering 323 MPH and an initial climb rate of 2820 FPM.


In all, 291 Hawk 75As reached France. Of these, 101 were operational when the Blitzkrieg began in May 1940. The Hawk's primary opponent was the Messerschmitt Bf-109E (see table above), and Hawks scored the first fighter kills in Europe when two Bf-109s were brought down on 8 September 1939. The Hawk was not as well armed as the Bf-109 and much slower, but was more maneuverable at all speeds and could absorb more combat damage.


Four Groupes De Chasse operated the Hawk throughout the campaign, while a fifth replaced its MS-406s with it in early June. The Hawk was the most successful fighter flown by the French during the campaign. Two-Hundered thirty victories were claimed, with GC 1/5 leading with 85 confirmed and 26 probables. There were six aces in this unit alone, with the great Marin La Meslee leading with 20. The elderly MS-406 suffered heavy losses while the MB-152 -an impressive-looking aircraft with its sleek contours and wing-mounted cannon - was the least successful in combat and suffered the heaviest losses.

There has been mixed opinion on the Hawk's performance over France. While some have pointed out that it was flown by elite units, it should also be noted that the majority of Hawks in action over France were the early A-1 and A-2 models. Relatively few of the more capable A-3s, and none of the A-4s, were in service. Had the Luftwaffe had to start the war with its initial BF-109B production model, the jagdflieger would have outclassed by the Hawk 75A-1, let alone the later models. In addition the Hawk was older in design and prototype than any of the French types, including even the MS-406 which first flew three months after the Hawk.


In a 1995 interview with World War II magazine, expatriate Czech pilot Frantisek Perina recalled the Hawk's outstanding maneuverability. It could "outmaneuver any German aircraft. If one got on your tail in one 360-degree turn you were behind him." Perina regarded the Hawk as superior to the Hurricane, which he felt was heavier on the controls.

In late 1942 Vichy-operated Hawk 75s fought US Navy Wildcats from the USS Ranger in North Africa. The Vichy Hawks came out on the short end of the stick, losing 15 for the loss of seven Wildcats.

THE "SUSSU" - HAWKS OVER FINLAND
The Hawk saw more sustained aeriel combat and enjoyed its greatest combat success with the Finnish Air Force, as did the Buffalo. The Finns received both Cyclone and Twin-Wasp powered Mohawks, but I have seen no evidence that Cyclone machines saw operational use. Reports indicate the Finns removed Cyclones from the P-36s to provide spares for the F2A-1 (BW-239) Buffaloes equipping the FAF's elite fighter unit, Hlelv 24.

Hawks arrived too late for the Winter War against the Soviet Union in 1939-40, but were in action for almost all of the "Continuation War" beginning 25 June 1941. The Germans sold them as war booty from the France and Norway and 44 eventually were delivered, with the first arrivals going to recon unit TLeLv 14 to replace Gloster Gladiators and Fokker C Xs and C.VEs. The Hawks were thought to be suited for the recon role due to their fairly long range and 311 MPH speed, which was considered adequate for 1941. In August they replaced Fokker DXXIs in fighter unit HLelV 32, which used them for the remainder of the war.

Although it never achieved the legendary status enjoyed by the Buffalo, the Curtiss was well-regarded by the FAF. It was considered highly maneauverable and rugged, and judged superior to Soviet fighters encountered early in the war, such as the Polikarpov I-153 and I-16. It could hold its own against the faster Lagg 3 due its much-tighter turn radius, but with the arrival of Yaks and La 5s and -7s in 1943 and '44, coupled with more capable Soviet pilots, the elderly Hawks found it more and more difficult to survive. Although the Soviets used lend-lease P-40s over Finland, there is no record of any being claimed by FAF Hawks.

Hawks were credited with 190 kills during the war against eight air combat losses and six due to AA. It boasted the FAF's third-highest victory tally, trailing the BF-109 (663 kills) and Buffalo (477) but edging out the D.XXI (187), a respectable tally considering most of the best FAF "honchos" were selected for the BF-109s and Buffaloes. Its best day was 03/28/42 over Susaari when 12 Hawks encountered 29 Soviets and claimed 17 without loss. The most recent research seems to indicate the top Hawk scorers were Altto Kalevi "Kale" Tervo with 15.75 kills followed by Kyosti Keijo "Kossi" Karhila with 13.25. Lt Jaako Hillo (9) and Capt Paavo Berg (7) were other top guns.

At the close of the Continuation War the 15 survivors were regrouped back into TLeLv 16 where they had started the war nearly four years earlier. They managed to soldier on in the FAF as trainers until 1948 when the last (CU-560 and -578) were withdrawn. Unfortunately no Hawks were retained for museum exhibit by the FAF and I'm aware of no discoveries of salvageable Hawk remains in the combat zone.

jagdmailer
02-05-2005, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I wouldnt be glad to pay but I would like them flyable.

ms.406
and the p36 with the p40 pit from the beta makes me miss it so much and the h-75 too.

Especially for the pearl harbor mission most have a misconception that 2 p40s shot down 5 enemy aircraft but it was really 2 p-36's.

This can also give the french some planes which is needed badly, There is so many interesting skins used on the h-75 p-36 ms.406. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was under the impression that we were suppose to get 2 variants of the H-75/P-36 flyable ? Lost track of that but where did those end up ?

Never heard of any Ms 406/410 flyable however.

Jagd

Atomic_Marten
02-06-2005, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kalaluth:

.... from French side.

Philip <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm... did they have AF? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif -- if I'm not mistaken, there were two French air forces, one on 'free French' side(allies) and one on 'Vichy' side(axis). So they actually have not one but TWO air forces.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Nice idea about Moranes and Hawks.. always loved these birds. MS406 is extremely important for Finnish AF too, because they were used it with great success against VVS.

Sig.Hirsch
02-06-2005, 08:46 AM
Yea Marten , i think they had one Airforce with very succesful pilots since WWI and their Spad planes , at that time the french were among the best , but after the June 1940 defeat , a part of their airforce joined the British RAF or North Africa colonies ( the youngest and more courageous, they were sentenced to death ... ) , while the other (much larger ) part of the French Airforce remained with the "official" governement which was Vichy at that time .

cheers ,

Gros_boulet
02-06-2005, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... , but after the June 1940 defeat , a part of their airforce joined the British RAF or North Africa colonies ( the youngest and more courageous, they were sentenced to death ... ) , while the other (much larger ) part of the French Airforce remained with the "official" governement which was Vichy at that time . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correction: The "North African colonies" (actually Morocco and Tunisia were protectorates, Algeria was considered as part of the french territory as Texas is part of the US)remained under Vichy control untill 1942. Just like the rest of the french colonies in Africa (there was a attempt to capture Senegal by the British and free French earlier but it failled).
Lebanon and Syria (also french protectorates) were invaded in 1941 by British and free French troops from Palestine and Jordan (British protectorates at the time). It led to dramatic situations where free French had to shoot at french troops still under Vichy's control.
Indochina (now Laos, Cambodia and Viet Nam) remained under Vichy's government control untill march 1945.
But you are right: those who dared to join the free French in Britain were sentenced to death by the Vichy government.

Blackdog5555
02-06-2005, 10:59 AM
There was a very good free Addon campaign for CFS2 for the french vichy. it was using the D520 in the Lavant (Syria). It was mostly a Vichy v. British scenario. But, yes I agree, both free and Vichy should be in the game + Poland 1939.

raisen
02-06-2005, 08:30 PM
I love planes from the thirties and early forties. As a bomber pilot, I'd want to lobby for some of those beautiful Potez and Breguet light bombers, Dornier, Junkers 86 or 88...a Wellington or Hampden even. Oh yes... That would get my attention.
Back then there were almost as many manufacturers of aircraft as there are make cars now. More of a choice of what to exclude from the final selection.

LeadSpitter_
02-06-2005, 09:01 PM
same here, I enjoy the earlywar sets most, a bi-plane aces of wwii addon would be very interesting. There was alot of them from all nations polish italian french german japanese american czech chinese and dutch aircraft.

I think getting the ai only single engine fighters in game should be essential.

t0n.
02-07-2005, 03:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Especially for the pearl harbor mission most have a misconception that 2 p40s shot down 5 enemy aircraft but it was really 2 p-36's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, making it hard to understand why the P-36 doesn't even feature as bot traffic in the Pearl DGEN "campaign"?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif