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Von_Rat
07-27-2004, 12:04 PM
I just picked up dietmar harmann's book on the TA 152. I plan on using it and any other sources i can find to see how the TA152 we have in game stacks up against the real life one. before i start all this research i thought i'd ask to see if someone else has already tested the TA152 2.04 against the data avaiable for the real life plane.

my areas of concern are.

did the real TA overheat as fast at hi alt as the in game one. it seems that i cant reach its max speed at hi alt, 9000m+ because of the overheating.

was the spit9 really almost as fast as TA at hi alt, because of the overheating i have hard time staying out of gun range at hi alt.

was the real TAs handling so much worse than other planes at hi alt.
i realise that hi alt is not modeled correctly in game, but does the TA have to be one of the worse handling planes at hi alt. and yes i do find plenty of fights at hi alt. dam pesky p47s, lol.

did the real TA have very exposed fuel tanks. it seems that 90%+ of the time i get shot down its from fuel leaks, it would be nice to lose a wing or tail or engine once in a while. instead of just massive fuel leaks all the time.

also has anyone checked the climb rate on the TA. to me it seems slow. i believe its supposed to be 22m a sec.

and finally that perrennial favorite the gunsight bug. any word on this getting fixed.

thanks for any info you can provide.

Von_Rat
07-27-2004, 12:04 PM
I just picked up dietmar harmann's book on the TA 152. I plan on using it and any other sources i can find to see how the TA152 we have in game stacks up against the real life one. before i start all this research i thought i'd ask to see if someone else has already tested the TA152 2.04 against the data avaiable for the real life plane.

my areas of concern are.

did the real TA overheat as fast at hi alt as the in game one. it seems that i cant reach its max speed at hi alt, 9000m+ because of the overheating.

was the spit9 really almost as fast as TA at hi alt, because of the overheating i have hard time staying out of gun range at hi alt.

was the real TAs handling so much worse than other planes at hi alt.
i realise that hi alt is not modeled correctly in game, but does the TA have to be one of the worse handling planes at hi alt. and yes i do find plenty of fights at hi alt. dam pesky p47s, lol.

did the real TA have very exposed fuel tanks. it seems that 90%+ of the time i get shot down its from fuel leaks, it would be nice to lose a wing or tail or engine once in a while. instead of just massive fuel leaks all the time.

also has anyone checked the climb rate on the TA. to me it seems slow. i believe its supposed to be 22m a sec.

and finally that perrennial favorite the gunsight bug. any word on this getting fixed.

thanks for any info you can provide.

dadada1
07-27-2004, 12:36 PM
As a regular Ta driver and owner of the Dietmar Harmann book I can tell you a few things about the 2.04 version.

I have done a brief test of the top speed and am satified that you can get pretty close to the claimed 752kph. I've managed 732kph @ 9500m and could probably have reached the top speed had I not been scared of completely frying the engine. One thing I did notice is that the overheat message was on for ages, but when I checked the temp gauge it appeard to be nowhere near overheating. So maybe the screen message can't be trusted anymore, try for yourself.

I personally feel (as do others) that the Spits currently are too fast and climd too well at altitude. Maybe this will be addressed in the future, maybe not, who can say. Check the current Spit threads on this forum.

Not too sure about the handling, if your outmanouvered by P47s then there is something very very wrong. Personally I think it's not too bad, but I know the P51 handles better up high, which it definatley should'nt. Are you being outmanouvered by P47s?

Fuel tanks, I've had the usual problems but for me not really an issue, other aircraft are the same problem

I think the Ta climb is near spot on now, I just think others overclimb, but I feel its' close to how it should be.

The gunsight, again I've not had one knocked off yet,can't help you with that.

[This message was edited by dadada1 on Tue July 27 2004 at 11:44 AM.]

WUAF_Co_Hero
07-27-2004, 12:44 PM
I have done repeated tests in the P-47D against the Ta-152, and I have come up with some conclusions that may or may not be widely known already.

#1: The Ta IS INFACT the fastest plane up there at topspeed (note: topspeed, not acceleration / climbing).

#2: The Ta's manuverability is superior to most planes up there, with the exception of the HF spit. It can and will outturn a P-47 if flown right... I give you my word.

#3: The Ta's climbrate at 9k+ is considerably sub-par. I find that in the jug it is very managible to best the Ta up high, if the fight is kept near or entirely vertical. The Ta simply can't climb up there.

#4: Maximum potential of the Ta is rarely if ever reached up high, due to immense overheat.

I have been bested by a Ta up high twice: once in a headon (luck of the draw I supose), and once testing the turnfighting compared to the jug. Both cases were satisfactory strongpoints of the Ta, though I still hold the opinion that the Ta is not as dominant up there as some would like to believe.

On a side note, I must submit that the Spit HF is no more of a "wonderplane" up there than the Ta or a Jug, or anything else. Like all planes, it has limitations. Though it can maintain it's energy very well, if not the best up there... it's limitation is it's topspeed. I have not seen an HF spit break 340kph in level flight that high, and since the jug's topspeed is between 380-390kph indicated, teamtactics are all that is needed to hogtie a spit.
Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.

dadada1
07-27-2004, 12:50 PM
It should be better than the Jug up there. Captain Eric Brown in his book Wings of the Luftwaffe felt the Ta 152 was similar to the Spit XIX in both climb and manouverability. Maybe the problem is the lack of proper high altitude modelling, but it does'nt explain everything.

BlackStar2000
07-27-2004, 02:26 PM
I dont know exacly how test planes, but once i saw in this forum a some guy talking about no use of prop-pitch and boost to test it, and there is a proper map and conditions, anibody figures how it works?

Von_Rat
07-27-2004, 03:57 PM
i dont really have to much of a problem up hi with p47s. it usually comes down to whose a better pilot, but i wonder why the TA with those great wings doesnt have more of a advantage than it does. someone in another thread mentioned that the turnrate of TA was to slow, has anybody else checked this.

in all honesty the only thing that really gets to me about the TA is when i got a bunch of allied planes, p51s, p47s, and spits chasing me up hi, with the spits in the rear. and ill slowly draw away from the p51s and p47s, but the spits will just hang in there, and if i make the slightest mistake they'll catch me. even at 9000m+. i find it hard to believe that a 1943 plane can catch a 1945 plane specially built for hi alt. funny thing is at low alt i usually have no problem with spits. i kill them more than any other plane. my own opinion is that the TA heats up way to much at hi alt, compared to spit.

hey HERO maybe that was me in the TA. I fly under the name VonRat now. just havent gotten around to changing my forum name. i think you're 3 or four kills ahead with your p47 on my TA. i'll get even, even if it kills me,,, ooops it probaly will. lol.

dadada1
07-27-2004, 04:24 PM
The problem seems to be that the TA is less optimised for high altitude where it should obviously be better. I also find no problems with Spits, Jugs P 51s at medium to low altitudes. I actually feel it performs a little too well there, which is perhaps wrong.

It should outmanouver a Jug up high without too much problem, its altitude performance may need adjustment in this area. It does take time to get Ta up to speed you have to keep flying straight and level some time, so maybe try be a little braver in order to get that speed advantage rather than engaging straight away.

As for the Spits well, like I said look at the other threads on this page.

Von_Rat
07-27-2004, 05:40 PM
okay ive done some testing and overheating isn't the problem up hi, at least as where spits are concerned. on the crimea map at 9000m with the TAs rads open and the spits on default they were pretty close on overheat and engine damage times. of course with the TAs rads open it only had a 10kph IAS advantage, not much. with its rads closed its advantage was 30kph IAS. as some of the other threads about spits indicated the problem my be that spits are to fast up hi. i have no info on spit9s so i cant say.

i was able to get the spit9HF up to 410 IAS, which according to HERO is faster than a jug up there. that cant be right, can it. anyway with rads open on TA i got about 420 IAS, with rads closed 440 IAS. all speeds at 9000m.

[This message was edited by patrat1 on Tue July 27 2004 at 04:53 PM.]

[This message was edited by patrat1 on Tue July 27 2004 at 04:55 PM.]

WUAF_Co_Hero
07-27-2004, 05:40 PM
hehe, I'm sure you'll have your chance to get me VonRat. =)

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.

robban75
07-28-2004, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dadada1:
It should be better than the Jug up there. Captain Eric Brown in his book Wings of the Luftwaffe felt the Ta 152 was similar to the Spit XIX in both climb and manouverability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bare in mind that the Ta 152 flown by Cpt Brown didn't have MW50 or GM-1 avaliable. And had it been avaliable, the Ta would've had the upperhand, CPt Brown said so himself, but maybe not in those excact words. His fight in this Ta wasn't really a test flight though, but merely a transportation flight to another airbase. Interesting and very unique nonetheless. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The Famous dogfight between the Fw 190D-13 and the Tempest was also flown without MW50, and yet the D-13 managed to outclimb the Tempest and engaged it in a turning fight from above.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

dadada1
07-28-2004, 05:05 AM
Yeah thats a good point they had neither MW 50 or GM 1 for any of their performance comparisons.

WOLFMondo
07-29-2004, 12:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dadada1:
It should be better than the Jug up there. Captain Eric Brown in his book Wings of the Luftwaffe felt the Ta 152 was similar to the Spit XIX in both climb and manouverability. Maybe the problem is the lack of proper high altitude modelling, but it does'nt explain everything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The XIX is a XIV without the weapons which is interesting but I thought the current TA152 was modlled like the C version and we'd get a correct H and a correct C in a later patch. I think Olegs already stated that high alt modelling is one of the engines weaker points?

BTW i've tried and never got a Spit, any spit to 732kph @ 9500m. Has anyone?

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Warlordimi
07-29-2004, 02:30 AM
The only Spit that would climb faster than the Ta152 is the Mark XIV.

Anyway, due to the misconception of high altitude in the sim, all tests made and FM are useless!

http://users.skynet.be/warlordimi/BanniereWarlord.jpg http://cbal.free.fr/timbrerwarlordII.gif

"Laissez les ├╝ber-planes ├ la VVS. La Luftwaffe, elle, ├ les ├╝ber-pilots!"

"Quand les allemands volent, les alli├ęs tombent. Quand les britanniques volent, les allemands tombent. Et quand les am├ęricains volent, tout le monde tombe!!!"

WOLFMondo
07-29-2004, 02:37 AM
XIX and XIV are the same plane, just the XIX has no guns but 3 cameras and didn't appear as clipped winged or AFAIK with a bubble canopy. It had no guns so the leading edge was cleaner but everything else was the same.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
Home of WGNDedicated

robban75
07-29-2004, 04:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

I thought the current TA152 was modlled like the C version and we'd get a correct H and a correct C in a later patch. I think Olegs already stated that high alt modelling is one of the engines weaker points? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Ta 152H does indeed turn tighter than the Fw 190D(something the Ta 152C couldn't), but I believe that it is unrealisticly difficult to turn. Unlike the Yak's, La's, Mustangs and Spitfires, the Ta 152 really "hates" to turn, actually even more so than the other Fw 190's! The stall/spin characteristics of the Ta has been improved in the patch, but the real Ta 152 was almost impossible to spin.

The game engine should work up to 10,000m. And appart from topspeed, the Ta 152 seems to have nothing to put against the Spitfire IX(any version) at that altitude. I will do some testings later on, but it's no secret that the IX is the toughest opponent at this altitude. The P-47 and P-51 are much easier to deal with.

The Ta 152C would handle worse, much more worse than a D-9 even. With its onboard armament it's obvious this fighter was made to excell at destroying bombers, not fighters.

Oleg and team is making an outstanding job nonetheless, and things ARE improving all the time, so, here's hoping! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

dadada1
07-29-2004, 05:32 AM
I've heard others say that we actually have the Ta 152C flight model, and that we will have separate flight models come the C. Like a lot of things, it's hard to determine whether or not this statement actually came from Oleg himself, or another source. What would be good is if we had clarification on which flight model we currently have. My experience with the Ta feels like we have a mongrel, the H1's high altitude speed, but without any of it's superb handling traits. It does however feel like one of the FW family, with a lot of similarities to other 190's, and I'm very grateful for it's inclusion. I still like the Ta as it is now, but wish that someone/anyone from the developement team would clarify just what we are flying, it would be very much welcomed by all I think.