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michapma
08-18-2003, 12:54 PM
Hi all,

I am writing a guide for engine management but need some help for the section on prop pitch management. I think I can handle the well known fixed-pitch and constant-speed prop systems, but I don't know much of anything about the "special equipment ... providing automatic propeller control" for German fighters. Is this the same thing as the so-called "aeromechanical screw" in the FB manual (p. 18)? A quick Google search hasn't turned up anything, and the G2 manual I have only mentions when to use manual control.

If anyone can provide me with some reasonably reliable resources, online or otherwise, that would be great.

Thanks,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
08-18-2003, 12:54 PM
Hi all,

I am writing a guide for engine management but need some help for the section on prop pitch management. I think I can handle the well known fixed-pitch and constant-speed prop systems, but I don't know much of anything about the "special equipment ... providing automatic propeller control" for German fighters. Is this the same thing as the so-called "aeromechanical screw" in the FB manual (p. 18)? A quick Google search hasn't turned up anything, and the G2 manual I have only mentions when to use manual control.

If anyone can provide me with some reasonably reliable resources, online or otherwise, that would be great.

Thanks,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 01:06 PM
michapma wrote:
- Hi all,
-
- I am writing a guide for engine management but need
- some help for the section on prop pitch management.
- I think I can handle the well known fixed-pitch and
- constant-speed prop systems, but I don't know much
- of anything about the "special equipment ...
- providing automatic propeller control" for German
- fighters. Is this the same thing as the so-called
- "aeromechanical screw" in the FB manual (p. 18)? A
- quick Google search hasn't turned up anything, and
- the G2 manual I have only mentions when to use
- manual control.

Bump-arooney...just because I'm so curious about the subject myself. It is very confusing, especially since the manual makes no mention of which aircraft use which types of props. It is all quite nebulous indeed.

--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

Message Edited on 08/18/0312:44PM by joques

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 01:37 PM
Mike,
"kommandoger√¬§t" should set google running in all the right directions. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 01:38 PM
Michapma, have you tried MudMovers.com? They have a wonderful site with tons of information available. If you have, sorry I couldn't help more. I, too, would like a list of planes that have/don't have manual prop/mixtures


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

michapma
08-18-2003, 03:12 PM
Thanks, effte.

Aardvark, the document AdvancedPDFmanual.pdf under the folder MANUAL on CD 2 should provide you with a lot of what you're looking for, and here is a handy PDF that has it summarized in tabular form:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/fbengines.pdf

Mudmovers has a lot of links to pages with all kinds of info on the 109, maybe i'll find something there.

Thanks,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:18 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zjska

The above may or may not be helpfull.

In my efforts to find information a poster on one of those threads claimed to have original documentation on the 109 prop device.

My understanding is that the 109s had constant speed governed props that used an engine fly weight governor to switch on and off an electric motor to adjust the prop pitch. The 109s had the prop lever or rpm selecting control linked to the throttle. In this way the pilot only had to move one lever. The power lever controlled both the throttle and the prop RPM setting simultaneously.

The pilot could decouple the prop lever from the throttle and control the prop pitch manually.





JG14_Josf

michapma
08-19-2003, 02:07 PM
Hi Josf,

Thanks for the link. I see that I was in the thread early but dropped out for lack of interest in the German designs. I'm interested now, so I'm going through most of what's written. I downloaded the E type manual and I can read German pretty well so I may be of some help there. My guess is that the E types just had controllable pitch props, that is, the pilot could and had to set the prop pitch to control rpm. What a lot of work!

There were also several misconceptions in that thread. I'm not going to go back and look at them, but rather take them with a grain of salt and just keep going until I find some authoritative sources on how those things worked. Again, beyond my own curiosity to know how they actually worked, my main interest is being able to explain the basics of operation for in Forgotten Battles.


Here is basically all I found about the Kommandoger√¬§t:

http://www.fortunecity.de/kunterbunt/ostsee/122/190.htm

"Therefore Tank and Blaser developed the genuine "Kommandoger√¬§t" - all funtions of engine and prop management could be controlled by one stick. It was a very basic "computer" consiting of several Braun tubes, pressure capsulas and relais, which controlled most of the aircraft functions via a highly innovative electricity system (for that time). So the pilot could concentrate on the main task - shooting down enemy aircraft (in contrary most of the US planes had many manual controlled engine functions)."


It would seem that this was used in the 190, but I don't know whether it was later implemented by Messerschmitt in the 109s as well. It also doesn't let us know about how the pitch and rpm could be controlled manually.

I'm still digging...

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
08-19-2003, 02:13 PM
I forgot, here is a link from a message board I know nothing about, although I think I recognize the name of the starter of the thread, JV44Heiden:
http://pub131.ezboard.com/fallboutwarfarefrm45.showMessage?topicID=305.topic

There are some tempting tidbits in there, but not the kind of authoritative sources I'd prefer to see, so I'm not digging into it just now. I'm afraid I don't really want my main information base be various comments on a message board. (So what am I doing here? /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif ) Just thought I'd throw it in.

Edit: In fact, if anyone who looks in here has some relevant literature about this kind of thing, please contact me, thanks.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

Message Edited on 08/19/0303:15PM by michapma

michapma
08-19-2003, 02:31 PM
In my search I just entered Messerschmitt and just out of curiosity went to http://www.stormbirds.com , a site I knew to be about the Me 262. Among the links I found and entry for the Luftwaffe Archive Group:

http://www.lwag.org/
"The World Wide Web's most comprehensive archival research resource dedicated to the study of Luftwaffe documents and records around the world."


I will be digging around there, they even have a forum. I just wanted to post that particular find here in case anyone else (Josf?) is curious and would like to look at the same time without waiting for my results.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
08-19-2003, 02:58 PM
Wow, even more stuff. I just didn't look long enough before.

The 109 lair:
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm
Hosts 4 109 manuals, including the 109E manual that was hosted at Technika, a Finnish G6 manual in English, a C-3 manual on armaments, and a broken link to a K-4 manual, which I suspect to be the same one as available at www.109.com (http://www.109.com). Also a load-and-a-half of links, which revealed the following two links.

The Luftwaffe Discussion Board:
http://disc.server.com/Indices/3051.html
Forum frequented by most major Luftwaffe historians and researchers. (Haven't gone here yet, but looks quite useful.)

World War II Air War- All About Warfare board:
http://pub131.ezboard.com/fallboutwarfarefrm31
Extremely helpful and interesting forum dedicated to the research of all WWII-era aircraft; moderator "Butch2K" is a frequent and helpful contributor to the Lair as well. (Haven't looked here yet, looks like the first board I would visit though. Butch2k has a reputation for being quite knowledgeable and willing to help.)



<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 03:24 PM
Michapma, wow!

Keep up the good work. And I hope you will grace us with a condensed version afterwards. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

michapma
08-19-2003, 03:57 PM
Haha, I am trying to find a somewhat condensed version myself. I have discovered all kinds of interesting historical stuff, but nothing specific so far on the prop systems. I am going to go through the pilots and technicians manuals again, but I think the best bet will be to post on one of the discussion boards and just ask for help to find the right resource. After that I'll be sure to share the essentials of what I find, after all I'm doing this to support a guide on CEM.

Hopefully, if this thread stays fairly visible over a few days (no small feat since the patch has come out) one of our resident experts will make an appearance.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:44 PM
Search for "VDM Einheitsverstellger√¬§t", it's the electrical system in charge of regulating the prop rpm.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 07:38 PM
I don't believe the Kommandergerat was ever adapted to the Me109 series, I believe it was integrated with the BMW radial engines, I would assume the conversion to different engines was too much cost for too little gain. In my mind it is confirmed that the FW190 series had a constant speed prop (in addition to the Kommandergerat system). But as to the 109's and constant speed prop, I just haven't seen the proof, it seems to me they retained a variable pitch prop, with an automatic control (though this might be considered a constant speed prop, I don't feel it meets the correct requirements for a 'modern' CSP).

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 07:47 PM
Sorry to step on your thred but you should wait untill the PP works corectaly in this sim before making a Guide


Small exzample

You can fly the 190 anywhere between 5pp & 75 PP with no differance in preformance

another exzample

After throtteling down & waiting over 10 seconds or so changing to 100 pp will not slow you down as it should


109s are the same way

the modeling for PP is the same between almost all aircraft now

THE PP IS WRONG !!! STRAIGHT UP

<center><FONT COLOR="white">”öFJ-M √Ňď R D √ňú ”°[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:43 PM
michapma,

I have scanned a few pages from the maintenance manual which should give you enough information to understand how propeller speed is controlled on the 109 in automatic mode.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gkoning/Bf%20109%20propeller%20control%20system.pdf

Scorpius

michapma
08-20-2003, 09:07 AM
Butch2k,
Although you are correct about the name, Google unfortunately doesn't have much to offer for it. VDM Einheitsverstellger√¬§t returns nothing, and Einheitsverstellger√¬§t returns the K4 manual. Thanks for the hint though, kept my spirits up. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Lignite,
Thanks, that helps confirm the feeling I have gotten in a day or two of looking around.

AFJ_Murdoc,
You didn't step on anything mate, and your advice doesn't fall on deaf ears. I've waited until this patch to see how things change to write any CEM stuff. I'm well aware that FB doesn't model reality with total accuracy. In addition to what you've written, overspeeding seems to have little penalty, and I have yet to make an engine detonate at full throttle and low rpm settings. However, I appreciate that we have CEM and that it does at least reflect the systems of the real aircraft, and I'm willing to write a guide to help people get thinking along the right lines when it comes to engine management basics. Anything that changes in a further patch will definitely be updated in what I write.

That aside, what I'm on about right now is understanding what goes on with the real-world devices, which are pretty patch independent.

Scorpius,
That is far and away the most information I've come across yet. A lot of it is for technical maintenance, but as you say it should give me plenty of clue about how the mechnaism works. I still would like to find something that distills the essential information to simply explain the basic principle of operation and how it's best operated (this latter point comes out of the pilot's notes pretty well for individual models at least). Still, I'll take this and run with it, thanks.

Do you have any information on how the Uhranzeige works? (Ich nehme an, dass Deutch kein Problem darstellt. Ich habe manchmals m√ľhe mit spezifischen technischen Begriffen, aber in der Regel kann schon mit der Sprache umgehen.)

Thanks all,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 07:45 PM
Michapma,

The folowing document provides a brief description of the system:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gkoning/Bf%20109%20propellor%20control%20description.pdf

Scorpius

PS The Uhranzeige is just a simple mechanical gauge that counts revolutions of the motor that drives the propeller pitch mechanism.

michapma
08-22-2003, 03:26 PM
Very good. I'm too tired to read it today, but I will certainly have a look. Just a little bump for anyone else who might happen to be following the subject.

Thanks,
Mike

Edit: ...and who also happens to read German.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

Message Edited on 08/22/0304:27PM by michapma

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:48 PM
Murdoc, as to your 'small example', could you explain to me exactly how a Constant Speed Prop can act as a 'speed brake'? You (as the pilot) cannot directly effect the pitch of the prop blades, all your setting is the RPM. In a no engine load glide (desent), the blades WILL coarsen in order to maintain indicated RPM (if they didn't the RPM would rise). Their is no way to adjust them to 'fine' until a load is placed on them, at which time the will automatically start going 'fine'. This is exactly what happens in FB now (not in 1.0).

What you say may be true for Variable Pitch Props (as in 109 on manual), but it appears to my limited testing that you can cause an 'air brake' effect, with the associated (and dangerous) rise in RPM.

I don't claim that it models everything perfectly, I just think it is actually working more correctly now.

michapma
08-22-2003, 04:10 PM
Hi Lignite,

I believe Murdoc only made references to German prop designs, which do not work the same way as constant-speed props. Otherwise what you say is I think right; not only in a glide but at high speeds the blades will coarsen to try to keep the relative wind from windmilling the prop to speeds above redline, or whatever rpm is set.

Here's what FlightVector had to say about it in another thread, one worth looking at if you're interesting in discussing props:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zamhs

<blockquote>What you say about acting as speed brakes is quite incorrect as well, props will only slow you down when they are turning slower than their theoretical pitch rating. In this case, 100% pitch exposes the greatest prop area to the free stream. So 100% pitch at near idle throttle will slow you down more than at any other pitch. Aerobatics aircraft use this engine braking and consider it quite important to their routines.</blockquote>

I assume these acrobat craft have variable pitch props. As a side point, in some aircraft with csp such as the P-40 you could switch it to manual control but it took time.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:01 PM
I agree about variable pitch props (and I believe they work this way in FB). But the FW190A series (both historically and in FB) have a constant speed prop, just as a P47 or La5. As to direct control of historic blade pitch in P40's (or any CSP), I wasn't aware of that, good to know. Too bad it couldn't be modeled in FB, but I suppose only so much stuff can be shoe horned in to any flight sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

michapma
08-26-2003, 03:58 PM
I thought Kurt Tank's innovative Kommandoger√¬§t was a feature on even the early 190 models? I don't think it was the same as a CSP.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:43 PM
ZG77_Lignite wrote:
- Murdoc, as to your 'small example', could you
- explain to me exactly how a Constant Speed Prop can
- act as a 'speed brake'? You (as the pilot) cannot
- directly effect the pitch of the prop blades, all
- your setting is the RPM. In a no engine load glide
- (desent), the blades WILL coarsen in order to
- maintain indicated RPM (if they didn't the RPM would
- rise). Their is no way to adjust them to 'fine'
- until a load is placed on them, at which time the
- will automatically start going 'fine'. This is
- exactly what happens in FB now (not in 1.0).
-
- What you say may be true for Variable Pitch Props
- (as in 109 on manual), but it appears to my limited
- testing that you can cause an 'air brake' effect,
- with the associated (and dangerous) rise in RPM.
-
- I don't claim that it models everything perfectly, I
- just think it is actually working more correctly
- now.
-
-


This is not correct, the blades do act like an "airbrake" in a constant speed design any time power dropes below governing range, which is generally a couple rpm higher than flight idle. This system requires engine oil pressure to increase blade pitch and sufficient pressure does not exist at the lower power settings.

If the pilot desires this effect, he merely needs to bring power to idle (well, higher than idel, but it depends on the aircraft), regardless of the initial rpm dialed in, the blades will flatten.



S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
Pattuglia Acrobatica Virtuale
http://www.pav-amvi.it

http://www.calaggieflyers.com/



http://www.txsquadron.com/images/txsquadron_main.gif

michapma
08-29-2003, 08:59 AM
Pretty intuitive too&mdash;to slow down, you reduce throttle. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 09:20 AM
S! hey have ya been over to stormbirds dot com? they have several good links as well as a project of rebuilding a fw190 f-8 if you proceed throgh this site and ask questions as i have you will find helpfull people with real life expiernce in the info or refurbishing of these birds... http://www.stormbirds.com.....i truly respect and have followed yor progress in this ( your) whole endever i look forward to you work S!

http://mudmovers.com/Sims/IL2/images/wallpaper/me262sharkt.jpg
U.S. infantry 84-91

michapma
08-29-2003, 09:28 AM
Thanks tenmike. Actually I've been too lazy so far to read the manual I have for the Emil. I am sure I can find something authoritative somewhere online. Yes I was at Stormbirds and they have many useful links. Just browsing sites to see whether they have technical info kind of wore me out, and I've moved on to several other topics, notably engine-related stuff. I think I'm ready to get back to the German prop systems today. Would be so much easier if there were just one place with all the info. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

I hope the info in my CEM guide will be accurate, but also concise enough and interesting enough to be readable. After the long work of research is done, that's the challenge! Thankfully there are well-informed folks who are willing to help along the way. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>