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View Full Version : RAF Training film. Attacking B-29's.



Waldo.Pepper
07-14-2007, 08:31 PM
RAF training film depicting best practices against American B-29's in 1948 - using Meteor IV and Vampires. The B-29's are playing the role of Soviet Tu-4's.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1812595429445699346

I have more ... and will post them over the next few weeks as time permits. If anyone wants to see them.

Waldo.Pepper
07-14-2007, 08:31 PM
RAF training film depicting best practices against American B-29's in 1948 - using Meteor IV and Vampires. The B-29's are playing the role of Soviet Tu-4's.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1812595429445699346

I have more ... and will post them over the next few weeks as time permits. If anyone wants to see them.

jensenpark
07-14-2007, 08:44 PM
yes please Waldo...keep 'em coming.

jimDG
07-14-2007, 09:08 PM
I don't get it. Whats the difference between the third wrong and first right attack? They are both beam attacks? Ok, the first right attack is kinda curvy at the end, but they don't say "when" the shooting begins.

Notice, BTW, that everyone is smoking (and making the T-4 gunners job easier http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif )

VW-IceFire
07-14-2007, 10:01 PM
The second right one looks allot like a lag or even pursuit while the first one is a lead pursuit situation. So the first one presents the bomber square on at a 90 degree angle while the other one is an arc in towards the rear and then out.

This is great information and should be especially useful for folks who think the rear gunners give them far too much trouble.

zardozid
07-14-2007, 10:07 PM
Wow!
Really,Really...Cool!
One for the vault. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
07-14-2007, 10:40 PM
Gives you a whole new respect for Japanese pilots trying to take those things on. The guys in the J2Ms and the Ki-84s were probably in OK shape but imagine taking on a B-29 at high alt in a Ki-43, A6M, or a Ki-44.

Jagdgeschwader2
07-14-2007, 11:25 PM
Fantastic! Thanks Waldo! Would have been intersting to see the attacks form the B-29 gunners point of view.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

lowfighter
07-15-2007, 12:21 AM
Thanks for sharing and keep them coming please! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

-HH- Beebop
07-15-2007, 12:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
...If anyone wants to see them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I DO! I DO!

triad773
07-15-2007, 01:14 AM
On same page

STUKA 1941
See http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6921361912520303973

In German

See film reviews here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0140578/

1 hr 29 mins

Interesting early war bravado from bomber pilots after they were PWND by Hurris and Spits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FlatSpinMan
07-15-2007, 01:24 AM
Werry interestink. The footage of the B-29 and Meteor take-offs were well worth the price of admission and hearing the briefing officer's voice was superb entertainment - shades of Mr. Cholmondley-Warner (sp?).

Wurkeri
07-15-2007, 04:56 AM
Thanks, a cool film.

DmdSeeker
07-15-2007, 06:32 AM
Very interesting, thanks!

Did any one else see the WWI pilots speaking on the same page?

ultraHun
07-15-2007, 06:54 AM
The wing commander is not accidentally <STRIKE>exactly</STRIKE> Johnnie Johnson?

MEGILE
07-15-2007, 07:27 AM
The headons are cool as fcuk

One13
07-15-2007, 07:48 AM
Great film! I wonder if Mig-15's used the same tactics against B-29s in Korea?

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-15-2007, 01:18 PM
lol... fuse diameter of only 9ft! They seem so much bigger.

Sillius_Sodus
07-15-2007, 01:41 PM
Too bad you can't hit much in the sim at the ranges quoted in the film. Open fire at 1200m? Good luck, and I'm not sure I'd want to get within 200m of a big formation of B-29's in the sim, or real life for that matter.

Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus

Viper2005_
07-15-2007, 02:30 PM
Good film. Please upload more.

tigertalon
07-15-2007, 07:27 PM
Interesting, ty for sharing!

1000 rounds per gun for .50 cals? WOW! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Waldo.Pepper
07-15-2007, 11:14 PM
An omnibus reply.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdgeschwader2:
Fantastic! Thanks Waldo! Would have been intersting to see the attacks form the B-29 gunners point of view. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

During the war the RAF used their few Meteors to help train/familiarize USAAF bomber gunners with the speed of a jet attack, To help counter the new German jets (Me-262's) coming into service. So I would not be surprised if such a film exists.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
The headons are cool as fcuk </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think so too, but my Wife doesn't seem to be too keen on watching such stuff with me!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by One13:
Great film! I wonder if Mig-15's used the same tactics against B-29s in Korea? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Different ballistics and gunsight - so I would think that there would be some variations. But I bet they liked the headon attack just the same.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sillius_Sodus:
Too bad you can't hit much in the sim at the ranges quoted in the film. Open fire at 1200m? Good luck, and I'm not sure I'd want to get within 200m of a big formation of B-29's in the sim, or real life for that matter.

Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The game is the game and reality is reality. I think that the reason that they were instructed to start shooting as 1200m is in part to calm their own nerves and to rattle the nerves of the gunners on the bomber. Something not modelled in the game.


I like several things about the RAF training film. Mostly I like it because is shows just how hard attacking large bombers (in large groups) with guns was.

It was incredibly difficult, and was taken extremely seriously by those pilots who had to risk their lives doing it.

It seems very easy in the game to me.

Anyway here are some Japanese pilots, reputedly of 244 Sentai doing some training on the subject.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/244%20Sentai/0095.jpg

Note how they have removed a gunsight and mounted it on a tripod to give them some idea of what they would see through it once they get into a favourable position. (They did not have the luxury of a training film to show them what they would see I suppose. So this was an attempt to show them something of what they might see.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/244%20Sentai/0021.jpg

And that favourable position seems (from the angle) to be very nearly directly above the target plane.

Also note the rod that is placed along the direction of travel of the target plane. It seems to me to have a colour change on the rod as well. Perhaps this was intended to help them guage their lead angles. I can only imagine the hours and days that these pilots poured over such training aids honing their skill.

Anyway more next week. I have about 6 or 7 more - but I think this is the best of the RAF material I have. None of the rest is tactical material. The rest is more mundane. It is all postwar, up to about 1953.

jimDG
07-16-2007, 06:16 AM
This picture confirms my personal favorite for attacking bombers - 45 deg. high and 45 deg of the beam. Makes the bomber a much bigger target - pure beam or head-on attacks present too small a target (you only see a narrow tube, or worse - a small circle).
In the case of a b-29 though, it puts you directly in the line of fire of the top turret (and with calculating gunsights for the gunners you'd be dead)

The T-4, on the other hand, had 20-23mm cannons in all turrets, which makes a difference, as 4x.50 cal may succeed in putting a bullet in one of the jet engines from a large distance, but 2x20-23mm are less likely to do so.

rhinomonkey
07-16-2007, 07:36 AM
great bit of history there! I like the fact they are all smoking, probably the riskiest thing they were doing at the time!

Lurch1962
07-16-2007, 06:11 PM
Looking back at such old material is like a breath of fresh air. Imagine what a similar treatment might be like today. Some 20-something director brought up on music videos would pummel the viewer with 1- to 2-second shots, in the mistaken belief that it's gotta be nearly stroboscopic to be interesting. By today's frenetic standards, the looong, static shots would be considered interminable.

But these old chestnuts were produced with an eye to giving the viewer time to take in the details.

Thanks, Waldo!

--Lurch--

HellToupee
07-19-2007, 04:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
This picture confirms my personal favorite for attacking bombers - 45 deg. high and 45 deg of the beam. Makes the bomber a much bigger target - pure beam or head-on attacks present too small a target (you only see a narrow tube, or worse - a small circle).
In the case of a b-29 though, it puts you directly in the line of fire of the top turret (and with calculating gunsights for the gunners you'd be dead)

The T-4, on the other hand, had 20-23mm cannons in all turrets, which makes a difference, as 4x.50 cal may succeed in putting a bullet in one of the jet engines from a large distance, but 2x20-23mm are less likely to do so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what use is a bullet tho, 1 x 37mm was found more effective than 4 x 20mm AA when u hit u want to hit pretty hard.

Chances of 4 .50s hitting where 2 23mm wont isnt too huge, but with such high closer rates of jet fighters u dont have time to score many hits so ild rate harder hitting cannons as better.

stalkervision
07-19-2007, 06:37 AM
Me-262's pilots found "the rollar coaster attack" the most effective agains't the b-17... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

bet no one knows what this is.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

and why are you guys watching confidential material to begin with..? I don't see any "declassified" stamp on this! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif