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Low_Flyer_MkVb
07-30-2007, 05:26 PM
From the BBC 'Battlefields' series - I managed to miss it when transmitted.

In six parts. Nicely done - features a German Night fighter pilot in one segment. Thought some of you might be interested.

1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2PBH3Kh1J0
2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPl4A5yLJrc
3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACSX-IK5e3s
4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdePaQ_bvws
5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrd-DbnwB_4
6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzLtpbjY700

Low_Flyer_MkVb
07-30-2007, 05:26 PM
From the BBC 'Battlefields' series - I managed to miss it when transmitted.

In six parts. Nicely done - features a German Night fighter pilot in one segment. Thought some of you might be interested.

1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2PBH3Kh1J0
2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPl4A5yLJrc
3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACSX-IK5e3s
4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdePaQ_bvws
5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrd-DbnwB_4
6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzLtpbjY700

MB_Avro_UK
07-30-2007, 06:15 PM
Mr Low_Flyer,

Not only a Super Post but also a Great Post...thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Jagdgeschwader2
07-30-2007, 06:22 PM
Thanks Low_Flyer! I watched the whole show. Never seen this before.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
07-30-2007, 06:38 PM
Downloaded for later. Fala.

triad773
07-30-2007, 06:50 PM
Great Low Flyer! Love these multi part shows. Got rid of cable because we're skint right now. Might as well enjoy them while we can due to (C) issues.

Thanks again

Cheers

Triad

Worf101
07-31-2007, 09:58 AM
Thanks man, working hard, needed a break. Controversial indeed but pretty even handed.

Da Worfster

BrotherVoodoo
07-31-2007, 06:28 PM
Watching now, thanks! Very interesting indeed.

woofiedog
08-01-2007, 09:52 PM
Thank's for posting... will watch it a bit later on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Monty_Thrud
08-02-2007, 10:56 AM
Smashing!...TFP... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 12:00 PM
Quite interesting documentation

however they still suppose that the attack of Dresden was a needed task???

Obviously BBC also makes faults with the award of medals, thus the general were awarded and also honored in the last D-Celebration causing a
dispute in Europe about this so called heroic attack.

Dresden was a test drive to utilize a new attack tactic with its goal to start a major fire storm.

At the end Dresden was not needed to attack, the outcome of the war was already set.

BBC should be a bit more political correct.

joeap
08-02-2007, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f.ip2:

BBC should be a bit more political correct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Uhhh NO....not saying I agree with them, but it's not up tp you to say what the BBC said...PC is the bane of true journalism and history. Disagree? Make your own documentary or research to dispute that.

MEGILE
08-02-2007, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f.ip2:


BBC should be a bit more political correct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ummmmmm how about no.

Waldo.Pepper
08-02-2007, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Dresden was a test drive to utilize a new attack tactic with its goal to start a major fire storm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Evidence? Certainly with each attack/raid more was learned about capabilities, and how to kill people better. But the accumulation of this knowledge was not the reason for the attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">At the end Dresden was not needed to attack, the outcome of the war was already set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Likely true. I know one man who could have stopped it. Adolf Hitler. If he had blown his head off sooner lots of people would have lived. Or if the July 20th plotters had build a bigger bomb/placed it better whole cities full of people needn't have died.

It was a war. It is supposed to hurt - lest we grow too fond of them.

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 02:31 PM
war is war, no dispute about that. there is no clean army, nor the germans, nor the russians, nor the us army.

or why did churchill say that with hitler they slaughtered the wrong pig after seen what stalin was in the recently published documents about him.

What the pilots mentioned is quite reasonable.

in the documentation they mention the criticism the commander and the pilots got, that even churchill questioned the moral of that attack afterwards.

but if you look into the books, you will see that dresden was a test drive to perfect firestorm. if it was a sign to show russia that the allied are still active, well, at least it is another point on the scale to show what this attack was.

dresden was a massacrer, and it was known it would be one before, dresden was not the first trial of a fire storm - it was the perfection of it.

this part BBC leaves out. It also leaves out the problem during d-day celebration. It leaves out the critizim shown when the "War heroes" were honored.

BBC makes a somehow false statement here.

While still being quite accurate about, this documentation leaves a contemporary taste of post-war Britain ideology. It feels more like a glorification than providing historical correct aspects.



in case some might be interested: Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

truly meant to inflict so much damage to stop the war at once. no question about that.

but how much do you find reports about the denial of medical help afterwards? how much do you find information about that the dyeing population was used as a lab mouse.

But well the us army used their own soldiers are test objects anyway - let me change the fact still uses.

Today those are nice pills you have to swallow during boot camp and you are not allowed to reject them. information about them is not given. and help when the offspring has unkown health problems is not given as with my girlfriends brothers daughter.

Waldo.Pepper
08-02-2007, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">war is war, no dispute about that. there is no clean army, nor the germans, nor the russians, nor the us army. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. If you have a chance to see this documentary Fog of War.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/fogofwar/

You will see Robert Mcnamarra (who during WW2 was an analyst of bomb damage) say that had the Allies lost the war himself and a great deal of other people would have been tried as war criminals.

Congrats for pointing out the obvious. Even though all wars contain criminal acts on all sides ... I hope you are not lamenting who the winners were. Cause it sounds a bit like it to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if you look into the books, you will see that dresden was a test drive to perfect firestorm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And if you look into way Government/Organizations/and individuals make decision you will learn that decision are derived from MULTIPLE sources and reasons.

To learn more please see Essence of Decision: Explaining the Cuban Missile Crisis.

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 02:52 PM
BBC which is seen here in the USA as a counter part to the local channels. They have a status of being objective and not subjective.

From a channel like BBC I would assume a bit less heorism and a more in depth research on such a complex topic.

That is my only point. They are not yet on the level of the History Channel here in the USA thankfully.

But some quite important facts were not mentioned.

MB_Avro_UK
08-02-2007, 03:34 PM
Hi all,

It's easy to be wise after the event http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

In 1940 the whole of Europe hated Nazi Germany.

After 1941 the whole of Europe, Russia and the USA hated Nazi Germany. That was the context of the Allied bombing of Nazi Germany.

Nazi Germany was seen as the evil force that had inflicted unspeakable cruelties upon their subjegated nations.

The only way available to attack Nazi Germany was from the air.

None...I say again none....of the countries occupied by Nazi Germany has been upset or angered by the Allied bombing of Germany.

Let's get that into context please.

Have any of the following countries that were occupied by Nazi Germany expressed concern at Allied bombings ?? :

Poland
Russia
Czech
France
Holland
Denmark
Norway
Belgium
Greece

In 1940, Nazi Germany bombed the he** out of all who stood in their way. Warsaw,Rotterdam and many other places.

For the first time, they met their match in 1940 against the Royal Air Force. British, Commonwealth and pilots from occupied Europe stopped them in their tracks.

I suggest that before you raise the subject of Dresden that you first mention:

Auschwitz
Belsen
Buchenwald
Sobibor
Treblinka
Belzec


The RAF and USAAF aircrews did not seek war but volunteered as a response to the aggressions of the Nazi invaders.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 04:28 PM
Budy

what is your point? Read my lines. This is not being pro / con anybody.

If you want we can go back to the USA using small pocks to kill indians. First usage of biological warefare. We can talk about how the Bitish empire enslaved India, how the British empire destroyed tribal structures in Africa causing the problems we encounter today.

We can also talk about the amount of people killed under Stalin on his side, or how the US government throw all the Japanese civillian in camps which were not very far away from what Germany did, with the difference that they did not perform medical experiements, which they afterwards did after the Nagasaki.


There is no clean country by any means.


If it is to complex to understand that a channel like BBC which claims to be objective leaves out quite important facts to report about in a retropesctive view than this does not work towards them.

Till today history is often written by the winners and often to their favour.

If you would watch Hisotry Channel which we call here the NAZI channel you will notice that it is close to a propaganda channel.

As a serious history view I would be more interested in facts not emotions.

But obviously this view seems to be impossible for you to see.

Quite many historians complain today that history is distorted.

For example also the problem of the Dutch people to accept their own failure of not being as a majority in the resistance but having worked together with the Germans. But it is in their peoples mind to think that they were mainly fighting them and not working with them.

And I am actually not talking about the RAF and USAAF aircrews I am talking about hose few who were pulling the strings and that should have been more convered in this report.

zardozid
08-02-2007, 04:40 PM
thanks

Kongo Otto
08-02-2007, 04:58 PM
Me as an german canĀ“t understand this diskussion.
War isnt a teaparty,people get killed,thats the nature of war.
There where many other cities in germany which where also Bombed.
Whell we started it,we got the payback.
So what?
And shurely there was never a "clean" army in any war,since the beginning of man.
Because every war is bloody,dirty and for to many he is deadly.

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 07:40 PM
Kongo Otto

this is not a good vs evil, British vs Nazis in contrast to some of the suggestions given here.


My simple point was historical in depth and correctness. Nothing about fairness or political correctness.

Half stories are half stories. And sensitive topics require some more in depth. Otherwise they quickly show a different story - interpretation.

Over 60 years after WWII I think it is about time to let loose of old enemy images and talk about history in facts not emotions.

But maybe this is just my academical view.


When I was young I loved History Channel, I loved seeing those Air Force movies about the F4 and other planes.

Today I rather dislike the H channel because as mentioned you can call it the Nazi channel. One sided story telling.

It feels like an illustrated post war propaganda channel keeping the old enemy image and enemy fear up. But fear is unique to this country.

The simple point behind this is the mentality this channel expresses gets transfered into viewers minds.

For that you only need some simple marketing experience. Continuous expose will convince.