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William_966
05-18-2006, 11:30 PM
Why are the ships in this game so hard to sink.
I swear, I hit the Akagi with a 1600 pounder, all it did was make alittle smoke. Sometimes the AI aircraft dont seem to make any dents.
The only weapon that seems to destroy any ship is the Tiny Tims-----if only we had those at Midway Battle!<LI>

Treetop64
05-19-2006, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by William_966:
Why are the ships in this game so hard to sink.
I swear, I hit the Akagi with a 1600 pounder, all it did was make alittle smoke. Sometimes the AI aircraft dont seem to make any dents.
The only weapon that seems to destroy any ship is the Tiny Tims-----if only we had those at Midway Battle!<LI>

Well, it may not be a battleship (almost ended up as one originally, though!), but it will still take more than just a single bomb to sink a ship the size of the Akagi, even if it s a 1600 pounder.

WTE_Galway
05-19-2006, 01:32 AM
The damage model on the larger ships apparently has several large "compartments" and you need to damage most or all of these to sink it.

In other words if you torpedo or bomb one end of a ship and it doesnt sink try and hit the other end next http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fighterduck
05-19-2006, 02:14 AM
just use corsair with full bomb loaded and 25% fuel...if you are taking off from carrier. For large ship..it will take two ( maximum 3 ) run if all your bombs will hit the target.

JG53Frankyboy
05-19-2006, 03:44 AM
if you hit it right you can sink a BB in this game with two Tiny Tims !
that one Corsair mission...............

the ships in game have specific bombload that they "need" that they sink.
for fleet carriers that is 2000kg in total, DD need 500kg , Freighter/Tanker 250kg.

to sink a Carrier /BB are needed at least 6 torpedoes (the big japanese/US ones. german and soviet ones are much weaker)

tigertalon
05-19-2006, 05:34 AM
It would be good idea to imlement randomization of this "bombload need" - let's remember USS Franklin (essex class!!) which was heavily damaged by a single zuisei with 2 250kg bombs, on the other hand there were smaller ships taking more poundage, but sustaining damage. If you are lucky (very lucky) you should be able to take a carrier out with a single 250 kg armour piercing bomb.

leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 07:56 AM
I performed a great number of experiments on AKAGI with the SBD's weaponry. The designers did not see fit to tell us if the 1000-lb bomb is the armor-piercing, semi-armor-piercing, or the general purpose version. Ditto for the 500-pounder, but minus the AP because it didn't have an AP version. The 1600-lb bomb was AP---it did not have SAP or GP versions. It was not available until 1943. The 1000-lb AP was not available until 1943. In truth, the USN was in bad shape in 1942 because it lacked an effective ship-killing weapon. The Mk13 aerial torpedo was almost completely unreliable, and the 500-lb and 1000-lb SAP and GP bombs were capable of smashing up superstructure but were not able to penetrate into vitals. The USN was very lucky at Midway. The Dauntlesses arrived just as planned as the Japanese were stuck with full hangars (contrary to previous accounts, they did not catch the Japanese carriers with deckloads of aircraft---see the definitive SHATTERED SWORD), and the high explosive heavy GP and SAP bombs were just the thing for smashing through unarmored flight decks into the hangars---jackpot---end of Kido Butai. I suspect Oleg gave us SAP or GP for the USN 1000 pounders because they (correctly) won't do much to AKAGI unless you hammer her with a massed attack. The 1600-lb AP bomb is a killer. Try to put it right aft so it passes through the flight deck into the fantail. This way you have a quick passage to the vulnerable stern and can inflict a hit likely to bring her to a stop and cause her to slowly sink by the stern. I found the sure-fire way to sink AKAGI with an SBD---while carrying a 1600 pounder, suicide crash into her stern right under the flight deck overhang---guaranteed. One last thing---always set a delay on your bombs or they will burst on impact doing little damage---3 seconds should do the trick.

William_966
05-19-2006, 12:52 PM
Hey I Kamakazied the British carrier with a A6M5c with 250 pounder......I set up the SBD's with 1600 pounders and WOW-----when the dust settled....I put some holes in her stern area.

I actually blew the SBD off the deck.
There is no fire crews to push the remaining planes of the deck. They sit there burning, until one by one, they fall off, sometime taking others down with them. It fun to watch AI at work. The one SBD that did get airbourne flew around in circle, its left aileron was blown off....it flew in a big circle, trying to stay aloft. The pilot struggled to keep it flying....the left wing dipping closer to the water.......finally.........crash! They got out safely. Then the bomb went off.....apparently AI pilots dont have paddles.

VFA-25_Cobain
05-19-2006, 03:24 PM
While on this topic, why can a Mistel NOT blow up a carrier?

leitmotiv
05-19-2006, 05:12 PM
Regarding the Mistel, depends on the carrier, depends on the hit location. One would think a direct hit on the hull side would blow it to kingdom come, but a glancing hit on the deck would not be as likely to allow the HEAT charge to work. A dive attack with a solid hit at a 90 degree angle on the deck ought to be fatal. The Mistel was designed to destroy English battleships in Scapa Flow---carriers ought to be pushovers.

JG53Frankyboy
05-20-2006, 01:29 AM
there is no difference in the ship damage if you use a delay or not!
with delay it is just much more easier to survive a skip attack..............

leitmotiv
05-20-2006, 04:38 AM
Wait a minute, JG53Frankyboy, do you mean the damage model doesn't recognize penetration by delay-action bombs? If so, it is critically flawed. Without delay, a bomb should explode as soon as it hits water making skip bombing impossible.

JG53Frankyboy
05-20-2006, 06:50 AM
the ship DM is very simple in the game - and Maddox will not change that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


perhaps you should remember before PF release:
at these times it was impossible to use a timedelay on bombs when attacking ships !
because than there was no damage calculated !
dangerous times that were for skipbombing attacks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and yes, the game is making NO difference - if a bombdelay is used or not..........
how that is not to compare with reality skipbombing i cant tell. just always remember, its a game that has to simplify a lot of things !
but its still a great one.

leitmotiv
05-21-2006, 06:06 AM
Thanks, JG53Frankyboy, this explains a great deal. The kick is just getting a hit, but, admittedly, when the ships do not go top speed or evade, hitting isn't really hard. In some respects I wonder why they even had ships at all?

Crash_Moses
05-21-2006, 08:13 AM
Most bombs were designed to drop straight down. Unless they had an altitude detonator (can't think of any off hand that did) they wouldn't explode until the the nose (where the trigger was) hit something solid. When skip bombing the nose doesn't hit anything solid until it hits the ship.

It is possible to skip bomb without a delay but you have to be really moving (hard in an SBD) and release as far out as possible (hard to judge without practice).

TimTam27
05-21-2006, 08:44 AM
Just a bit of information that may be relevant to this thread.
I have recently finished reading a fantastic new book about the Battle of Midway called "Shattered Sword" which covers events from the Japanese side. I was astounded to read that the Akagi was destroyed by a single hit from a 1000 pound bomb. There was a close miss astern which caused steering problems but the actual hit caused catastrophic fires which burnt her to the waterline. So some ships, particularly Japanese carriers can be destroyed by single hits.

Of course with the simple damage model we have for ships in PF/FB you can't mimic the sort of damage that real ships suffer but I hope in BOB:SOW we get something a little better than the present system. It would be nice to have ships catch fire and for the fires to spread over time. Sometimes damage could cause a ship to slow or stop rather than sink immediately. I know this is a flight sim not a naval sim but a little more attention paid to these sorts of things would go a long way.

leitmotiv
05-22-2006, 02:44 AM
AKAGI was a special case---the carrier had a hangar full of armed and fueled aircraft. Dave Best's 1000 pound General Purpose bomb exploded in the upper hangar and caused a chain-reaction of secondary explosions as detailed in SHATTERED SWORD. These together with an out-of-control fire destoyed the ship. I agree about the modeling of the ships---the ridiculously simple depiction of ships in this sim really makes you ask why they bothered at all. They do not try to evade---absurd.

Antisub
06-10-2006, 06:16 PM
This is an old topic, but hey, I'm a slow reader...

Go into FMB, place a ship on the map, and take a look at it's properties. Each ship has a skill level (Rookie, Average, Veteran, Ace) just like an AI plane. Set it to Rookie, a 1,000 pounder will sink it. Set it to Ace, it takes up to five 1,600 pounders (depending on the ship, of course, and I've tested all Japanese ships up to the generic battleship). Guess this simulates the crews setting different levels of water tight integrity, and how well the damage control parties function.

Don't know how the game software or DCG etc handles it in campaigns, but it can definately be set in DF or Coop maps.

Kernow
06-11-2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I performed a great number of experiments on AKAGI with the SBD's weaponry. The designers did not see fit to tell us if the 1000-lb bomb is the armor-piercing, semi-armor-piercing, or the general purpose version. Ditto for the 500-pounder, but minus the AP because it didn't have an AP version. The 1600-lb bomb was AP---it did not have SAP or GP versions.

It wouldn't matter what type of bomb it is. Try dropping a pair of the German AP PC1600 on a BB and then drop a pair of the gen-purp SC2000s. The big SCs will sink it, while the PCs just damage it. Pure tonnage is all that counts.

All hits need to be concentrated in the same place to sink a ship, not spread around. This does lead to a certain randomization in the tonnage required to sink the larger ships. Once one section of a ship has been destroyed the ship sinks.

Like Franky said, 6 of the PF torps will sink a capital ship (BB, CV) if they all hit the same section. However, the He-111 is slightly more effective, even though it carries Il-2's original 'weak' torpedo, because it carries a couple which run together; 5 pairs will sink a capital ship.


Originally posted by Antisub:
Go into FMB, place a ship on the map, and take a look at it's properties. Each ship has a skill level (Rookie, Average, Veteran, Ace) just like an AI plane. Set it to Rookie, a 1,000 pounder will sink it. Set it to Ace, it takes up to five 1,600 pounders (depending on the ship, of course, and I've tested all Japanese ships up to the generic battleship). Guess this simulates the crews setting different levels of water tight integrity, and how well the damage control parties function.


Well, I never knew that. Thanks. I've got a lot of anti-shipping co-ops and this info might help improve them.