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View Full Version : Where A/C will fail (where it should have succeeded)



Dvlos56
10-17-2007, 11:41 AM
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.

Dvlos56
10-17-2007, 11:43 AM
Hopefully these elements are fixed or improved before release, I REALLY want to love this game, the setting and sandbox style seem like a real winner. But it's just not clear to me why I need to spend $60 on this game instead of another. In other words Ubisoft, you need to convince me.

samo3000
10-17-2007, 11:59 AM
Do they need to convince you?
i mean yeah, i respect your opinion, but out of all the people who want this game, and the few who dont, its hardly possible that they are gonna listen to your opinion which if they did, you would be looking for a delay.

like say 100 people want this
89/100 love it, the rest dont

besides, i dont think its all that bad, they scream, they shout, they run around crazy, get in your way..sounds awesome to me.

and im sure its not all 1v1, its like PoP as mentioned in one of the vids, its sorta 1v1 but if you played it, its never 1v1, it may be 1v1 but then someone else will come and attack you while you are in the combo, soo yeah..

all in all, i respect your opinion, but i really doubt its gona change peoples minds on the matter, as most of us have waited 2 years and more :/

Peace

Sam

MrMoo333
10-17-2007, 12:04 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I would buy this game if it were stick figures, all of the good aspects of the game are GOOD ASPECTS! They rule out the slightly negative stuff, and yeah, i don't think youl change many peoples minds but, you always have your opinion on any subject!

lostassassin123
10-17-2007, 12:06 PM
the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3
If it is - I WILL buy AC, but never again an ubisoft game... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
I`ve waited for too long to be that dissapointed.
(I`m PS3 owner and if the PS3 version will suck - UBI is liar and if not - you`re a stupid fanboy so die http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif)

moonsongv1
10-17-2007, 12:10 PM
The combat reminds me of Pirates of the Carribean, except better realized. I happened to like the combat in that game. I really enjoy this kind of melee combat. In my opinion this kind of combat is much harder to pull off than fps combat.

If AC can't quite pull of the melee combat then it will file under another game that was cool but didn't quite nail it. If it nails the combat then it is a huge step forward in this kind of combat which is a good thing. As for the rest of this post it's still on the 360 and ps3 not a NASA computer.

RetiredHatch
10-17-2007, 12:11 PM
No I'm not defending the game because I absolutely adore the game and absolutely nothing can be wrong with the game, but everything you said was completely wrong

Lets take it one paragraph at a time:

The crowd is a roadblock it's a mass it's something no other game has ever had before a person that you can't walk through http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I'm not sure what you mean by "you can shove someone on the floor and still run up and assassinate your target" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif well yea... just cause that person is on the floor doesn't mean you can't kill someone

Paragraph 2, or 5, for the last time.. there is no difference between AI on the PS3 and the 360

Paragraph 3, or 6, Being spotted DOES make the assassination attempt harder, infact as you progress through the game the bad guys will begin to recognize you more and will attack without so much as a warning (quite possibly) because you are a KNOWN assassin of course at the beginning of the game that won't be a problem because you are NOT a known assassin,

If you haven't noticed in a couple videos the Crowd (normal people not guards) were throwing rocks at Altair as he was climbing up a building

As for friendly when you do your side missions and you do get friendly folk instead of that beggar that would have tried to stop you and get in your way are no stopping the guards and getting in the guards way and tripping them up instead where's your arguement?

Paragraph 4, or 8- They wait for an oppurtunity to strike just like you should this is not a button mash fest this is wait and position yourself and counter kill. the guards do that also they are not going to be swiping at you all at once because they don't want to kill each other

And I'm sure hitting push repeatedly over and over will have its consequences http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif might trip you what are you going to push if there is nothing to push?

You haven't played the game your arguements are flawed watching videos can't possibly tell you how well the AI is it's not possible you have to mess with AI alot to figure out how it works you have to play the game or hours to see exactly how the opinion is swayed towards your favor for the enemies watching a ten minute clip can't possibly tell you that

Dvlos56
10-17-2007, 12:15 PM
I'm definitely in the waiting for two years crowd.. put it this way, I have $60 sitting under a paper weight with a note that says "for A/C".

I don't want to come off as arrogant or diluded enough to think Ubisoft needs to come to my house and WIN me over, no. I mean in the sense ALL game companies try to win "you" over with their product. These issues for me are a hangup I guess, I'd rather they scale back on graphics and increase the realism in other areas like the AI as promised originally.

It's also heartbreaking because I have another $60 waiting right behind A/C with a note attached that reads "For Splinter Cell Conviction". Another game that hinges on heavy crowd dynamics and interaction with AI crowd as part of the gameplay.

If they would have said 2 years ago "Assassin's Creed is an action/sandbox game where you swing a sword and climb walls" I honestly (despite liking the arabian/medieval setting), wouldn't like it. But they kind of came out with "This is Ancient Hitman series, sandbox style, with PoP acrobatics and combat.. oh and the best AI ever". So THAT is what I was anticipating, this is seemingly falling way short in several areas.

SC:C is being promoted as a Bourne Supremacy, convict on the run deal. Where the "stealth" is the ability to blend in, well if THAT crowd only screams and falls that's not much of a game? Same with A/C.

In the Hitman games, there was also crowds, they were pretty dumb crowds, but if you spooked one of them guards came a running. And if you attracted 3-4 guards it's a safe bet you were dead, as its kinda hard to 'Rambo' through the Hitman games. I pretty much figured A/C would keep that simple concept in a game about also blending in and assassinating, it becomes bewildering a bit as to their choices for how combat can play out.

Then again we could be getting glimpses of earlier stages of the game, or only the first city when things are easy.

* A few blogs mentioned that A/C was having a hard time with the 360 version because of the DVD9 restriction, MS lifted that restriction so I would recommend Ubisoft, just put in all those multiple language files on a DVD that can be loaded to a user's hard drive.

Dvlos56
10-17-2007, 12:28 PM
To RetiredHatch:

"The crowd is a roadblock it's a mass it's something no other game has ever had before a person that you can't walk through Eek I'm not sure what you mean by "

Other games have crowds, Hitman Blood Money? You can't "walk through" those crowds, their actions are severely limited though, but one thing they do is if you whip out your dual pistols in the middle of New Orleans, the crowd flips out, and runs away alerting enemies and police who are on the prowl looking for someone that fits your description. This crowd behavior is evident from the FIRST level onto the last.

Now, if A/C has this.. it hasn't been shown well in videos. The guy throwing rocks at Altair in those IGN videos seems to be one of the guards, he's reaching down at the floor and pelting Altair- I could have missed something but that's what it seemed like to me.


"Paragraph 2, or 5, for the last time.. there is no difference between AI on the PS3 and the 360"

That's good, that original statement from Ubisoft was dubious anyway.

"Paragraph 3, or 6, Being spotted DOES make the assassination attempt harder"

That's my point, which I addressed above, in the Cathedral chase video it seems he pushes someone over and assassinates his guy. Not that the person on the floor should have stopped him, but what about the other people around? SHouldn't the commotion make everyone (including the target and his bodyguards) turn around and notice Altair?

"As for friendly when you do your side missions and you do get friendly folk instead of that beggar that would have tried to stop you and get in your way are no stopping the guards and getting in the guards way and tripping them up instead where's your arguement?"

Not sure what you say here, but I think you mean whats the point of having crowd angry at you and some crowd friendly with you? Do I have to answer that? You would have a reason to be friendly with NPCs in the game? Maybe that guy who sells you arrows, will help slow down the guards so you can buy more arrows from him?


Paragraph 4, or 8- They wait for an oppurtunity to strike just like you should this is not a button mash fest this is wait and position yourself and counter kill.

In a game going for immersion and realism, not Super Mario, this is silly and dumb. In real life, while you had your sword up blocking a guy swinging his sword at you, clashing your swords together. His friend will be shoving a dagger in your back. In a game such as this, isn't it more logical to then have Many Guards Fighting You = Death? Making it more necessary to constantly be on the move, flee, use rooftops and cover, stealth and crowd control to your advantage?

Why do you need stealth? When 10 guards arrive all you have to do is bust out your 1v1 Mortal Kombat arcade skills and keep walking. The only thing you have to worry about is your fingers getting tired.



You haven't played the game your arguements are flawed watching videos can't possibly tell you how well the AI is it's not possible you have to mess with AI alot to figure out how it works you have to play the game or hours

There is no demo, I understand that, so all we have is videos in this game purchasing decision. My arguement is not flawed as I have not declared them to be "100%" true it just seems that way with the information provided. There is NO video showing the things you are talking about either, with Altair having a really hard time because he's pissed off the crowd/guards too many times. Combat being really challenging, or stealth being truly necessary. NONE of that has been shown in the multiple videos trying to entice people to buy AC. Right? Maybe the full version has it, maybe its AI in the full version IS in fact top notch? Then guess who's buying the game? Me and probably all the other lingering doubters out there.

T_Spoon_UK
10-17-2007, 12:35 PM
The thing im worried about, which ive seen alot lately in the new videos, is the crowds just walking into each other stupidly.


Before i get some fanboy screaming at me. I'm not saying the AI is ****, because it isnt, but i have just noticed that they walk into other people alot, like it was some sort of wall they were walking into...

membernametaken
10-17-2007, 12:44 PM
There is NO video showing the things you are talking about either

*sigh*

This is just one example of something i've seen. There was a beggar throwing rocks at you while you're trying to escape from guards and you actually slip up, almost falling off the building. The beggar probably is pissed off at you because you didn't help her, earlier. Having certain groups of AI characters remember you for your previous actions is good AI and I can't recall seeing that in any other game.

Another example, although I haven't seen this done in an actual gameplay video but I have seen it in the trailer. Ubi has confirmed that if you help the monks around the city (the ones wearing the white robes similar to Altair's outfit) then they won't stop you from blending into their group while they're walking, holding their hands up in a prayer fashion. Again, that's good AI to me if they remember your previous actions. If you don't help them, i'm sure they'll yell something like "HEY! ASSASSIN! KILL HIM!" instead of saying nothing.

I rest my case.

Regarding combat: There is no way to judge how combat plays out when you haven't played the game and all you've seen is videos. You just can't get a feel for it. In my mind, if 10 guards all came at you at the same time and just obliterated you from existence, the game wouldn't be too much fun. In other games, while i'm fighting someone and another character attacks me, breaking my combo, I find it highly annoying.
Another point is, it's not a Mortal Kombat arcade style of fighting, it's similar to "sword-fighting" or "fencing" and you have to wait for an opening, parry and counter-attack. Hopefully, it feels right when we get the chance to play it.

Regardless, wait for the reviews and make sure that the two versions of the game will definetely be the same. See what the final version of the game is like before you lift that paperweight, man.

I would consider you an idiot, if you didn't.

Dvlos56
10-17-2007, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by membernametaken:
This is just one example of something i've seen. There was a beggar throwing rocks at you while you're trying to escape from guards and you actually slip up, almost falling off the building. The beggar probably is pissed off at you because you didn't help her, earlier. Having certain groups of AI characters remember you for your previous actions is good AI and I can't recall seeing that in any other game.

Another example, although I haven't seen this done in an actual gameplay video but I have seen it in the trailer. Ubi has confirmed that if you help the monks around the city (the ones wearing the white robes similar to Altair's outfit) then they won't stop you from blending into their group while they're walking, holding their hands up in a prayer fashion. Again, that's good AI to me if they remember your previous actions. If you don't help them, i'm sure they'll yell something like "HEY! ASSASSIN! KILL HIM!" instead of saying nothing.


THis is the kind of stuff I'm looking for, and if this IS in the game and prevalent enough to alter your game experience (for example, "I better not go through that area, the shopkeepers there hate me for killing Josef" or "I need to hide.. where are those monks!?") then my worries will be laid to rest. That is the kind of game I want, and yes for a sandbox game for elements of the City to keep track of you like that would be pretty unique.

kppgno80
10-17-2007, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

They should have kept the "1-hit kill." Just so you actually DO have a reason to run.. im in love with this game, but it looks like it will be to easy.

1 hit kill could work, expect for rocks, if you get a rock thrown at you, it should just knock you off balance.. unless you get hit in the head

AirRon_2K7
10-17-2007, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Hopefully these elements are fixed or improved before release, I REALLY want to love this game, the setting and sandbox style seem like a real winner. But it's just not clear to me why I need to spend $60 on this game instead of another. In other words Ubisoft, you need to convince me.

Hmm, a lot of your argument is flawed, but you bring up some 'valid' points, even though even back in 06 we saw the crowd doing more than 'screaming'

You should watch all the gameplay trailers... Here is something I posted a few days ago, it answers somethings you said:

Wow, Mist. You say we're over reacting, when almost half of your argument was about the 'arrows' a third was about the sci fi, and the rest was on the guards AI... just incase you didn't get that:

50% Arrow Problem
33.3% Sci-Fi
26.7% Guards AI, and Realism

Now I don't need to tell you that half of your argument needs to be dropped. I won't focus my reply on that, in fact, I'll try to reply as logically as I can.

This is Patrice's game, he wanted his game to be set during the third crusade, but he also wanted this Sci-Fi stuff to be in there. Now, its hard to like this glowin' stuff, since we don't know why its there, but reviewers like IGN DO know about it now, since they've enjoyed extended hands-on time. Not once have they mentioned that the Sci-Fi stuff sucks, so maybe you need to think that: Once you know why its there, it won't be such a problem anymore.

The guards AI is debatable tbh, you don't like it, I like it. You (or maybe not you, but many others) seem to think that the guards are pants-on-head-******ed because they attack one at a time, and they EVEN let you get up once you've been knocked down. You haven't mentioned this particular thing so i'll be brief. Attacking all at once is a very unprofessional way of fighting, dangerous too. Since everyone would be moving in on the target, it means you don't have much room to swing your sword, you can't easily dodge out of the way of attacks, and there's a bloody good chance that your next strike will land on your buddies neck. The fallen down thing is a combination of honour, courtesy and again common sense.

I don't see everyone's problem with the rest of the guards AI, in fact, there isn't really one. They see you do something bad, they run after you. You kill them, they die. You push them, they fall over. You block their way, and they stop.

Drifting over the rock topic for just a moment, the guard acted quite logically by doing that, not only did he somehow get onto the roof (a sword weilding guard isn't just on the roof, he wouldn't be too much help >.> ) but he's trying to get you down by throwing stuff at you. If the player didn't grap back on, he would have fallen and probably would have had to engage the guard in combat.

Pfft, nothing else to say about Guard's AI, I like it, you don't.

The realism... I don't know when it happened, but somewhere along the lines of production, people started to think that this was a realism game. If you've ever seen moqqy post, its either to say something sarcastic, or saying how it isn't realistic. He's right, this game has shown MANY such instanses where realism is replaced with playability. Have you SEEN some of the jumps that Altair attempts, successfully? He can jump into a bale of hay, from great heights, and climb out uninjured. He can jump from rooftop to rooftop, many meters apart, without much of a run-up. All of these instances, and people still think that its the Sci-Fi glow stuff that ruins the realism. The game didn't have that much to start off with. The only truly realistic settings are the time its set, the graphics and the deaths... The rest has been replaced so that the gamer can have as much fun as possible, not so that realism buffs can say "Oh, his leg broke very realisticly after that jump".


The AI only attacks one at a time? Well how do you expect, all at once? Read up mate, you would probably smash the brains out of your friends' skulls if you did that.

I CBA to answer to much, but part of your argument isn't even valid, since the AI isn't better on 360, the AI isn't totally ******ed.

It can't cater completely to YOUR wants, like you want shopkeepers to hate you... what are they gonna do, not serve you? Or do you want them to abandon they're livelyhood to chase you down, whilst their **** could get stolen?

You should be afraid whilst running, because again it seems you haven't done your homework, even from the X06 trailer, where you get knocked over by the crowd, simply 'cos you run into them. Or 'cos they run in your way, I dunno how many arms you think Alty has, but it isn't enough to push everyone out of the way.

Crowd does help you, we've seen plenty of diagrams and whatnot showing how the crowd helps and hinders you. Google them.

Thats it for now, unless you prove a point worth looking at, I say that your argument is flawed.

Peace.

Dark_zip
10-17-2007, 01:37 PM
Dude I didn't have the concentration to read all your Ughe***W**I***N**I**N***G But aN XBOX can handle AI much better than a PS3..

Just wanted to make that clear...

Ill be leaving now......

Boeh!

AngryMob
10-17-2007, 02:02 PM
i was about to post about the fighting but took a while to post so i refreshed the window before posting and sure enough AirRon beat me to it with a great post. i do however have one thing to add.

have you ever been walking towards someone and get into one of those back-and-forth-trying-to-get-by-each-other-but-you-keep-getting-in-each-others-way things? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif the combat is a similiar problem. if all the guards went in for the kill at the same time without second guessing they could all wind up smashing each others swords together(not just hitting and killing each other, this is different). this would make a huge open spot for the other person to attack them while their swords are still bellowing from the impact. so instead of all attacking at once they have to sort of stop and go so they dont screw each other over. keep in mind that all that honor and blah blah blah still applies but they would not be so careless versus one man that just killed 3 others in front of them.

as for the altair not getting hit during combos i have seen a huge improvement in that from E3 till now. before i agree it was bad. you could do a long combo and after your out of it no one is swinging their sword at you, but now immediatly after a combo your already blocking another strike. also if your on the offensive and attacking a single guard you canget hit in the back and stumble/sloppily block(i love that word: sloppily, whoever described it this way in another thread rules http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif) out of their offensive strikes(i have seen this in a couple of videos including the new one right after he does the jumping kill.)

the crowd that we have seen doesnt have a reason to like or dislike altair in these videos. they make these demos for the game shows and use their mad skills to essentially "skip" the rest of the game and put you at __ point in the game. by doing so i would guess that their was no side missions done, so the only people that dont like you are the ones that never like you until you do their side missions, and the ones that dont like you because you assassinated __. that is why in these videos all you see is people screaming and running like mad men into stuff.

one last thing about the push over than assassinate thing, go to a crowded area and start running through the crowd... how many people in that crowd are going to trip you or whatever just because your running? they dont know you just killed someone 200ft away until they see 20 policemen chasing you than they realize they could have helped. same with the civilians near altair and his target in the video your referring to. the civilians see some people running down the street yelling its gonna take a second for it to click in their heads that the guys running are in trouble and need help. they dont just go "OmG A NOoB nEEdS mY HeLP i BeTTeR PwN THAt NOOb FOLLowiNG ThaT oTHeR noOB!!112!1!211!!!"...

i didnt really read this over now so im gonna just post it and hope for the best http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Dvlos56
10-17-2007, 03:02 PM
Uh, I think the whole "Medieval people took turns fighting" is the most inaccurate argument I've read in a while. How do you think people in the middle ages went to war? They all charged each other and smacked swords and shields until you died. Usually they formed a wall so that their attacks had LESS chance at hitting a friendly.

Unfortunately friendly fire type of damage has been around since fighting was invented. Point is, if it WAS NOT a wierd "sore" subject with people why do so many people keep bringing it up? Also where is that post/quote from? One of the devs? Of course they are going to gloss over their game and say everything they decided to do is "great". You have never seen devs staunchly defend their game as "innovative and deep" when everyone else is calling it "bland and buggy"? So I don't know where that whole "its more realistic to do 1v1" came from was it Ubisoft or what, but please it's silly.

But in all honesty I'm not saying that A/C looks bad, or IS really bad, but it's just not the depth I was looking for is what I'm concerned about. There is a trend to streamline game to focus player on the core of what makes their game fun. Some people get that concept right, other people think streamlining means making the game stupid and simple but with pretty graphics.

I'm not saying that's what the AC dev team is necessarily doing, that's a trend that's been going on for a while now. So when you see things like a simple circle 1v1 attack scene, crowd that seems unimportant, no jump button, no need for stealth.. I kind of get the impression this is just another shallow game with bells and whistles to make you go Ooo and Ahhh but no real depth that keeps you intently playing and talking about that game for days, weeks, and months.

Does anyone remember Half Life 2? Prior to launch they showed this E3 presentation with Striders walking over you and you had to use things like sign letters, and boulders to stop these giants, and AI was amazing they ran in talking to you and help in you then the giant tentacle monster...

When HL2 launched NONE of that was in there. Striders yes, but not THAT scene, things were scaled down, the tentacle monster crashed the game and didn't work right so it was cut.. etc... E3 2006 showed a really dynamic crowd, they really didn't get into how it would affect gameplay but they talked about it. The thing is more recent AC videos show a slightly "stupider" crowd with plenty of crowd glitches, and their conversation and dynamic nature seems to have developed into not much at all.

I think the problem I have which could be the same problem that minority of people have with it, is that we're looking at games that have come before Assassin's Creed.

Splinter Cell, Hitman, Thief, GTA, Crackdown, etc.. and thinking "Ok an assassination game but it's a sandbox game, that's amazing, Thief III tried to do that 'giant city' thing too but technology it was very limited... and it's assassinations out in the open like Hitman, while being a giant sandbox game like GTA or Crackdown"

Problem is the last couple of released videos give off a different vibe. Making it seem like it's more like a very simplified Prince of Persia/Street Fighter II game in a Saint's Row packaging.

Simple action games entertain for a while, but then the gameplay gets very repetitive and compelling. I think it's absolutely fair of me to criticize and analyze what I see in the more recent videos compared to the E3 2006 demonstration.

Also the thing with the Xbox 360 having better AI than the PS3, I didn't say it.. UBISOFT did.. now they are recanting all that nonsense. But that just goes to show you to what lengths a dev will go through to draw hype to their game (or for a buck or two).

Also this statement is kind of disturbing:

The guards AI is debatable tbh, you don't like it, I like it. You (or maybe not you, but many others)

Like some others have posted, the game's not out yet so it's hard to judge it. But here this guy's already putting an idea in your head "the few don't like the combat" .. what do you mean the few? It's not even out yet?! Sounds like fanboi working overtime? As for everything else, yeah the game is not out yet, but I know that for a GAME sometimes you have to make things fun.. like the building jumping and scaling, and just the entire sci-fi angle.

What bothers me about the combat/crowd issues I was bringing up, is not so much realism... it's gameplay. I keep mentioning gameplay over and over again because that's what seperates legendary games from bargain basement ones. The crowd doesn't seem to change/alter/differentiate gameplay in these videos. Combat seems SIMPLE, not deep or require fast thinking, just fast button mashing reflexes. Once again, I say play a Hitman game, and compare what you see in one of those missions to what you see in A/Cs videos. I can't help but draw the correlation that its just another simple action game with fancy graphics.

princeofyo
10-17-2007, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.

God, it will never end...now let me see...

Alright, for starters the AI really isn't as stupid as you make it seem. When you kill someone they gasp, run around, and try to run away. Ubisoft has shown a recent trailer or two with Altair blending in with monks to escape, but mostly they have been showing the Eagle Dive. But just because they haven't show a lot of the AI helping or hindering after a kill doesn't mean it won't happen. Besides, in other videos we've seen begger women come and get in Altair's way. So it can probably be done after an assassination though I doubt most people would want to get in his way after that.

And they do react very well, when you climb they stare and talk about you, when you kill they scream. The AI have the potential to knock you over if you are running away. Granted, some of the AI aren't always good, but many are, and when you can have 120 AI out at a time, it's not unsurprising that a few won't be as good as others.


And when you do go on roofs to do assassanations guards do notice you, are archers will try and kill you. And we already know that your allies will help you, I'm very sure it happened in a preview.


The last of your arguments is really a huge joke. Out of anything it's been critized the most, but the reason only one or two guards are attacking you is because this game isn't trying to be the next Ninja Gaiden. Assassin's Creed isn't trying to be an incredibly hard game or a button masher. If you had ten guards on you the only way to win would be to punch in combos that could take out 3 guys. But AC ISN'T trying to be like that. It isn't trying to be overly difficult or a button mashing fest. It's more about stragety and timing. If you watch the new 8 minute video you'll see the guards attacking Altair pretty often, some even attack right after he kills another guard. Sure Altair attacks them more, but considering a human is playing....

In your latest paragraph at the bottom you say looks like a button masher at has no depth. If you have read any of the recent previews you'll see that that is not the case at all. IGN has said in both their USA and UK previews that combat is quite stratigic, and is very deep.

Creepy006
10-17-2007, 03:35 PM
Too... much.. to.. read.. *dies*


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


sorry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Toysoldier304
10-17-2007, 04:21 PM
Ummm maybe the reason the crowd hasn't done anything *for now* has been because......Ohh....this might be bold......But maybe in all the videos, they were playing a demo....without side missions. NOW one tihng that does have me worried is that in an old video (Game Spot i think) Altir punches a guy.....another guy comes and punches Altir....BUT the first guy Altir punched....just walked away O_O

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 04:23 PM
First, I am buying this GAME. I think the GAME looks great and will play great. But...it is a GAME. So, bear that in mind as you read what follows...

I study martial arts (Both Asian and Western). Multiple attackers DO NOT attack one at a time...outside of movies, and GAMES. There are actually tactics that soldiers were taught when they out-numbered opponents. For instance, "Guard A" engages the target from the front with the intention of drawing the targets attention, "Guard B" will then attack from the rear while the target is occupied with "Guard A." This is just one of many common sense tactics for out-numbering opponents.

Those who keep posting that "Mideavel swordsmen attacked one at a time, when in numbers" are mistaken. That would negate the advantage of mutiple attackers, would it not? There are counters to this for the target (ie, placing your back to a wall to lessen the advantage...to a degree, and/or stay in constant movement if not surrounded). In all honesty, if you are surrounded by multiple attackers, things look rather bleak for you (in the real world).

BUT...

This is a GAME. Playability would be nill if it were TOO realistic as far as combat goes. From the way it looks (granted, I have not played it yet) I think there will still be plenty to worry about without being concerned for the "knife in the back"...

MeAltairLol
10-17-2007, 04:27 PM
Lol, you're right it is too much to read! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But to carry on the debate:

In that one video where the beggar grabs on Altair and begs him for money, when Altair pushes her away, quite violently, when he walks away, the crowd stay away from him, staring, whispering.

In one of the latest videos, Altair jumps through a stall while he's being chased. He does knock some things over. Now, if you listen carefully, about 1 second after this, you hear someone shouting "YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS!"...

eliteassassin69
10-17-2007, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Creepy006:
Too... much.. to.. read.. *dies*


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


sorry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol thats what I wus thinking and then I read your post. I didnt even bother reading >.<

and the DO attack 2 at a time. I think it wus in that tgs that the player is attacking one guy and another guard takes advantage and tries to kill altair. but somehow altair has eyes on the back of his head and instantly turned around and parried. I guess guards attack if they see an opening in your defence or someting? ima jus have my back against wall and make em go into a semi-circle

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by eliteassassin69:
ima jus have my back against wall and make em go into a semi-circle

Exactlly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Acharel
10-17-2007, 05:41 PM
What I think would be some great minor changes/additions to the combat system that'll fix many of those odd moments seen in the Montferrat clip are these:

- When the player is countering someone's attack while there's loads of other soldiers surrounding him, don't have the game go into this cinematic mode where Altaïr really takes his time finishing this one guy while he's in the range of a swift sword slash from someone else. Make him do it fast, then immediately have him turn his sword towards the most threatening group(s) of remaining swordsmen. This together with the fact that you just slaughtered a soldier without the slightest effort would surely leave a deteriorating effect on anyone. Just generally animate Altaïr to make him gesture his weapons in the direction of the soldiers that's not targeted by the player, and it wouldn't seem so unlikely that they'll all be awaiting rather than aggressive. Fear is a very real concept in this sort of situation, and I think that the AI-side to the combat system probably employs it well. Altaïr should just look more threatening to the general crowd of soldiers by giving signs that he's aware of them, and they should as an effect keep a little more distance than what's seen in the videos. This is all that might be needed to make things real nice and sufficiently believable when you're up against the kind of numbers shown in the Montferrat clip.

The soldiers being reluctant about attacking and only engaging you in small numbers at a time really make sense, think about it: A cloaked assassin has masterfully swept down upon your boss and planted a dagger in his head. You and your pals wouldn't go ten on one, as suggested as being the realistic thing across the interwebs on more than one occasion. This isn't a fight with bare hands or blunt weapons like baseball bats. People are using sharpened swords and daggers. Ten men ganging up on Altaïr would surely mean the assassin's death, but realistically each and every one of these soldiers want to live to see another day. They'll all fear that they'll be one of the two, three our four unlucky people the assassin will slay before he's finally overpowered. Also a lot swords slicing away trying to hit one man can get extremely unruly -- you might very well end up being hurt or killed by allies. Tactics of drawing his attention in one direction while one man advances on his rear might actually seem like the far better option, and this seems to be employed in the game. It's when people almost are breathing down Altaïr's neck without doing anything it gets a little akward, and the features i suggested above should help alleviate this.

But heck, the demo might have had a rough downtuning of the combat system for the sake of playablity, or the final build might just have these sorts of details in it, making everything seem fine. What do I know.

eWaster
10-17-2007, 05:52 PM
As Jade Raymond told us in several interviews, the crowd WILL react differently of what you are doing. For example in a video I saw where Altair walks up to this guy and starts pushing him. Right after the man turns around and gives Altair a straight fist in his face. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Thebrownfish
10-17-2007, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
First, I am buying this GAME. I think the GAME looks great and will play great. But...it is a GAME. So, bear that in mind as you read what follows...

I study martial arts (Both Asian and Western). Multiple attackers DO NOT attack one at a time...outside of movies, and GAMES. There are actually tactics that soldiers were taught when they out-numbered opponents. For instance, "Guard A" engages the target from the front with the intention of drawing the targets attention, "Guard B" will then attack from the rear while the target is occupied with "Guard A." This is just one of many common sense tactics for out-numbering opponents.

Those who keep posting that "Mideavel swordsmen attacked one at a time, when in numbers" are mistaken. That would negate the advantage of mutiple attackers, would it not? There are counters to this for the target (ie, placing your back to a wall to lessen the advantage...to a degree, and/or stay in constant movement if not surrounded). In all honesty, if you are surrounded by multiple attackers, things look rather bleak for you (in the real world).

BUT...

This is a GAME. Playability would be nill if it were TOO realistic as far as combat goes. From the way it looks (granted, I have not played it yet) I think there will still be plenty to worry about without being concerned for the "knife in the back"...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

This is a game which i most certainly will be getting and the sooner the better.

My observation comes from the Montferrat Vid and in particular the point where our resident assassin gets punched straight to the gut and falls to the ground surrounded.

At this point surely a soldier would take their sword, boot, knife, quill or whatever else came to hand and stab, kick, batter to kill Altair as quickly as humanly possible.

Lets assume that the hashassin (spelling?) are notorious in the region and regardless of that the soldiers have just watched this man kill their leader and several friends/colleagues. I would suggest that the first guard who can lay claim to his head would find themselves on the first camel back home ladden with gold as a prize for his efforts. Yet these men allow Altair to get up dust himself off and carry on slaughtering them before exiting left (ok it was right, sue me).

This leads me to the poster who i have quoted. As he/she stated if the game was as realistic as some here would like there would be no fun in the game. Lets wait till we all get our hands on it and then slate the AI if it deserves to be slated.

i guess my point is this (FOR PEOPLE WHO HATE TO READ LONG POSTS START HERE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) I for one do not forget that Patrice is usually the man in control and he must be close to being expert level at this game, yet he still has is butt handed to him on occasion. I dont think noobs like us are going to be worrying about the AI when surrounded by 7 or more guards.

fiso16
10-17-2007, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.


hey i've got an idea, how about you SHUT THE **** UP!!!!!
i say theres an (at least maybe more) 80 percent chance this will be game of the year.
everybody is histerical about this game, the developers have been working their asses off trying to make this game.
the last thing we need is a nutjob like you spending what seems like hours researching the negative aspects of this game.

first of all i bet you've never experienced what its like to make a game of this quality so you dont know how difficult it is to make one NPC have even 10 indipendent reactions let alone 100's of them times the total number of NPC's in the whole game.

i understand that you want this game to be perfect but that wont happen. and right now its pretty damn close. so dont even start with your negativity. please

Natebubba00
10-17-2007, 06:58 PM
I agree with Dvlos. The most exciting thing about it was the chase/running away. If you are able to fight hundreds of gaurds, one at a time, there will be no reason to run away. I can imagine gaurds coming at me from both directions, maybe 10, and I having to jump up onto the side of the building just as they are about to close in and kill me. If you can fight them all, all you need to do is fight your way in to where the target is and duel him. It's supposed to be "quickly in, quickly out." Instead, seeing the Montferrat footage, it looks like you easily kill four archers, no problem, none of them even notice. Then you jump down on the guy, and engage in a fight where you are surrounded by fifteen guys. It's not "OMG I HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE" its more like hahahha I'm Aragorn and I'm going to kill all of you. Where is that urgency to escape?

fiso16
10-17-2007, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.

i seriously cant even start to mention how i dont like people like you. these developers work their butts off trying to make this game good and then you come in and tell them all these negative things.

i bet you dont know how to make a game of this quality and you dont know how difficult it is to do. i understand you want a perfect game but it wont happen. making one NPC have 10 indipendent movements or reactions is hard enough now try doing that with 100's of NPC's.

so for you to take time just to research the flaws, is just dumb and shows absoloutley no respect and appreciation for the people who make this happen.

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 07:06 PM
@Thebrownfish

Exactly my point. I can tell you, in DoJo (I refer to it as such whether it is Asian or Western), if I hit the ground while practicing defense against multiple attackers, they make sure I suffer for it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

But, I still think the combat will be fine..."real life combat" is actually very sloppy and chaotic compared to the impression most people have via games and movies. I like the look of the in-game combat, and I really do not feel like getting killed everytime I run up agains 3 or more guards! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Thebrownfish
10-17-2007, 07:09 PM
But Natebubba00 what we dont know is whether or not they were using a GOD mode for that demo. After all it has been stated by various posters here that after the incident at E3/06 where we saw a snip of the future plans after Altair died (I think that was deliberate TBH) they only have limited time slots to show gameplay and dying early on then having to restart would be a disaster.

Also in the demo at E3/06 Jade mentioned that this is not a game where you can take lots of damage and carry on running like the terminator (could that be the future link http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif).

I hope to find that the game is fairly balanced and the BETA testers would surely have commented or would have been asked to comment on difficulty for that reason. Lets wait for some reviews or better still the actual release of the game before we comlpletly slate the AI of something we dont know enough about.

GOD i sound like a fanboy. Not trying to attack you or anyone else and if the AI in the game sucks on release i will be the first to agree with you all.

FrozenFire550
10-17-2007, 08:38 PM
@Thread poster
I agree with much of what you said, to some extent, and I think you worded it in a very logical, mature manner. So for that, I commend you.
The AI doesn't seem TOO bad, I mean, it would be cool if there were moves worked into the combat that could make you attack 2 or even 3 guys at once, so that the guards could come at you more aggressively, but whatever, it's fine how it is. I'll still love this game, and it is sure to be my favorite game until GTA IV comes out (Maybe even after that)

I just think of it like this...if 12 guys are fighting one guy who shows off some amazing sword skills..they're gonna stay back so that they don't go accidently slashing their friend's head off. Many of them are also panicing, not knowing what to do as they watch Altair take out dozens of guys. That's how i'll be thinking of the situation when I play.

Which brings me to another point, you can't tell EXACTLY what the AI is like, until you play. What if the AI is absolutely breathtaking, and smart, and incredibly fun? Playing a game changes MANY things, things you wouldn't consider, or see when you're simply WATCHING a video, you know?

I'm not worried about AI or anything, because just soaking in the atmosphere from atop a 30 story church will be enough for me.

Thumper1980
10-17-2007, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.

I really don't know why you bother telling everyone your misgivings of the game. People blow smoke up your arse and tell you they respect your opinion. But they really don't, and you're just some spastic who rants about pissy little problems in a video game.

If you don't like it don't buy it. Don't come here and write a novel about it. You whinge and moan about it...Believe it or not the team who created it dedicated 4 years of their life to make it as good as it is, they could've packed up camp along time ago and left the lot of us with nothing. So have a think about that before you start one of these threads.



Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
First, I am buying this GAME. I think the GAME looks great and will play great. But...it is a GAME. So, bear that in mind as you read what follows...

I study martial arts (Both Asian and Western). Multiple attackers DO NOT attack one at a time...outside of movies, and GAMES. There are actually tactics that soldiers were taught when they out-numbered opponents. For instance, "Guard A" engages the target from the front with the intention of drawing the targets attention, "Guard B" will then attack from the rear while the target is occupied with "Guard A." This is just one of many common sense tactics for out-numbering opponents.

Those who keep posting that "Mideavel swordsmen attacked one at a time, when in numbers" are mistaken. That would negate the advantage of mutiple attackers, would it not? There are counters to this for the target (ie, placing your back to a wall to lessen the advantage...to a degree, and/or stay in constant movement if not surrounded). In all honesty, if you are surrounded by multiple attackers, things look rather bleak for you (in the real world).

BUT...

This is a GAME. Playability would be nill if it were TOO realistic as far as combat goes. From the way it looks (granted, I have not played it yet) I think there will still be plenty to worry about without being concerned for the "knife in the back"...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Pinjani10
10-17-2007, 08:49 PM
I wrote this same thing somewhere else about the combat and why 5 gaurds arent all on you at once. When you watch literally any action film you see two guys running at the hero and the hero dodges and the 2 guys wipe each other out. Now take that and add swords and armor. Altair is a master assassin hes completely aware of his surroundings and what each person around him is doing if someone lunges for him he doges and either kills him or runs.

FrozenFire550
10-17-2007, 08:56 PM
Hmm...that was quite uncalled for. I don't know about everyone else, but I was being 100% honest.

I agree with most of what he said.

Also, people are entitled to their opinions WITHOUT people putting them down. Where in the forum rules does it say "Only talk about how GOOD the game is" ?

For every "OMG AC IS SW33T LULULUL" thread we get, i'd like to read another person's opinion on the downfalls of it, as long as they're being reasonable about it.
And i'm sure the creators of the game wouldn't yell at someone for saying "I spotted a problem" They would be delighted to hear an opinion, so they can further improve their game.

How good would this game have been if people hadn't pointed out errors, and things they disliked? Not very good at all.

People learn through mistakes, and this game improved through trial and error. So don't get all pissy at people who state their opinion.

fGuppy88
10-17-2007, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

Correction, we have seen the crowd aid you and we have also saw the crowd as a malefactor. Helping monks out you can hide with them and we have also seen certain people who try to catch you. We have also seen some citizens try to fight you because of you punching others around him.

what Other then that you don't need anything else.



Originally posted by Dvlos56:

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

They do help you and they do hate you. They do try to push and yes it is harder. The videos all say this.


Originally posted by Dvlos56:

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

One of your strong points. I also noted this. However there were times when I saw two people attack you at once. Never three. When I did see them attack you they seemed cautious. This is because if you are too tenacious with a sword you will end up killing yourself and no one really wants to die. Even if you all rush you will get him but hes gonna take some guys down with him. The fighting is very real. A lot of this is mixed martial arts. I have taken and studied martial arts. Never was good at it though lol.

Also some gamers hate unfair game play so I'm guessing fun is the #1 priority instead of realistic. but other then that thats a real con.

In conclusion i don't see what your big misfit is about. You seem to me as a pessimist with a lot of peradventures to the game.

Thumper1980
10-17-2007, 09:08 PM
So don't get all pissy at people who state their opinion.

We're stating opinions. So I stated mine.

Hassan-Sabbah
10-17-2007, 11:10 PM
Some will like it, some will not...this makes the world an interesting place!

I think everything we have seen as far as videos go up to now, are "early" parts of the game. If, what we have been told by the devs is acurate, we have not seen the crowd in an "Evolved" state as of yet, ie; we have no idea how many of the "side quests" have been done, how many people the players on the video pissed off or helped out, or how well known Al'Tair is in the videos.

So, I do not think we have seen what the crowd is really capable of as of yet...but we will in a few weeks.

sweetlou280
10-18-2007, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.

Watch the Assassins Creed PAX vid on gamespot.com. It shows a trouble maker and a...i forget what they called him exactly but he is pretty much a bully that picks a fight with you. We've also seen beggers and ppl carrying things, if you know the peole over that are carrying things they will atract attention. We have to remember...this is the first crowd gameplay game (GTA/Crackdown don't even come close to this, they are were just walking meat targets), there will be improvements. Its like looking back at pong and critizizing it for not having more gameplay modes.

yehonatan.roth
10-18-2007, 01:09 AM
damn you all (no offense)

now iam dippresst... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

this game was my hope for something good this year... (And On My Birth Day It Get Realsed To PC...)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif


i feel like **** now... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

i now will check what people will think of the PS3 Xbox360 version and if most will like it and say how it is i will then buy it but seriousley i know feel so so bad...

and i probebley will like the game and then my pC won't be able to play IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Hassan-Sabbah
10-18-2007, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by yehonatan.roth:
damn you all (no offense)

now iam dippresst... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

this game was my hope for something good this year... (And On My Birth Day It Get Realsed To PC...)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif


i feel like **** now... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

i now will check what people will think of the PS3 Xbox360 version and if most will like it and say how it is i will then buy it but seriousley i know feel so so bad...

and i probebley will like the game and then my pC won't be able to play IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Why feel bad? This game has so many GOOD points! It is good to discuss positive/negatives in theory.

Again, though...none of us will KNOW until we FINALY get to play it. I, for one, am looking forward to it!

aappleyard
10-18-2007, 02:20 AM
I saw some where a document on how the X-box 360 can handle AI better than the PS3

but this does not mean the PS3's AI will be worse as the game is IDENTICAL on all platforms!

:P

Im getting it for 360 anyway. just because thats all i got :P

Freefall69
10-18-2007, 02:48 AM
Here is some examples of the a.i, i believe these pics are from ubisoft, dislayed at e3

too me the ai seems fine, people run in front of you and ask for money, they form blockades, they create walls to protect you, they throw rocks at you, the guards surround you in a fight so that you simple cant just run off, they attack you at one or two at a time so that they can make it possible to have a realistic health system, and also to give the feeling you are being chase and pursued by more people with making it feel impossible, if you had 20 guards surrounding you, hacking at you all at once, that in my opinion wouldnt be fun. And the fact that the gaurds climb after you (though not as gracefully) is great. To have them jumping from roof to roof to try and chase you! It would be **** ai if they stayed on the ground and just followed you by moving round the base of the building waiting for you to slip up and fall to the streets...

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3432/41567bw9.jpg

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8278/41568rd6.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9638/41569bd0.jpg


http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5913/41570bm7.jpg

Royal.Mist
10-18-2007, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.

Thank god someone else bothered to post their reservations. I made a post about the Cathedral Scene and made one tiny observation mistake and the fanboys went nuts. It's good to see you've thought this out well and I totally agree with what you have to say.

Especially after reading all of the "Guards will attack together" nonsense and then watching two videos containing attacking where the guards stand around and take turns.


Originally posted by membernametaken:

This is just one example of something i've seen. There was a beggar throwing rocks at you while you're trying to escape from guards and you actually slip up, almost falling off the building. The beggar probably is pissed off at you because you didn't help her, earlier. Having certain groups of AI characters remember you for your previous actions is good AI and I can't recall seeing that in any other game.

Buddy, that's a guard. And after he throws the rock he bends down, picks it up and draws his sword while looking at Altair and making no attempt to follow him. That is the brilliant AI in action.


Originally posted by membernametaken:
I rest my case

I agree, you are pretty thick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by AirRon_2K7: Editted bull**** out

You don't have to be a smart ***, mate. I was quite civil, in my opinion, with everyone bashing on me for one minor discrepancy with observation. Just because your willing to settle for a second-rate game doesn't mean everyone else who enjoy playing a good piece of work will.

You've seen plenty of diagrams? No f***in way?! Damn, we have absolutely no comeback against your superior hypocrisy. "Watch the videos" you say in defence of AI, yet, you bring out that pearl to defend an aspect you are protective of. I have never seen a video demonstrating your diagrams and if there is one, please, link it.

But how is his argument flawed? Because you disagree with it? I don't believe YOUR argument is flawed yet I understand it's YOUR opinion. And no, before you say it, it's not because you have the RIGHT opinion but because you actually have one. His argument is legitimate because it can be proven by watching game play videos. HOPEFULLY we are only viewing early builds because the AI has a long way to go for a game currently in the debugging phase.

The point is, the AI is VERY last generation with some very NICE innovations thrown into the game along with what seems, won't know until the actual release, a game making/breaking sci-fi twist and if it is what everyone suggests, someone traveling into the past to retrieve DNA/Memory/Something then it's going to be horrible. That simply isn't original and seems very Back To the Future.

The game seems to be designed for Patrice with everyone else's wants coming second.

Don't flame me for my opinion, rebut with sense and respect and I'll do the same. Thanks.

QUICK EDIT: To those who are saying it's disrespectful towards the developers who spent four years making this game just remember thats four years of 30-90k a year. Also, it's not like the game is free, we have to pay for it therefore we should be entitled to ask for features/additions/removal of certain aspects. "The Consumer/Customer is always right."

filthywalrus
10-18-2007, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by membernametaken:

This is just one example of something i've seen. There was a beggar throwing rocks at you while you're trying to escape from guards and you actually slip up, almost falling off the building. The beggar probably is pissed off at you because you didn't help her, earlier. Having certain groups of AI characters remember you for your previous actions is good AI and I can't recall seeing that in any other game.

Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
Buddy, that's a guard. And after he throws the rock he bends down, picks it up and draws his sword while looking at Altair and making no attempt to follow him. That is the brilliant AI in action.


First of all, you're a ******.

Second, Altair is climbing straight up a wall. Ever see one of those videos of that french guy who climbs tall office buildings? Do you see police officers climbing up and trying to catch him? No. The guard there is wearing heavy chainmail/plate armor, a sword, and to boot is not a master assassin trained in parkour/freerunning. He would have to be a complete moron to attempt to climb up the side of a building to try and catch Altair, all things considered.

Thirdly, watch the X06 demo for the reason all the guards do not attack at once, it is incredibly obvious even to someone like yourself who has a problem with simple reasoning and logic.

mdurks1981
10-18-2007, 07:12 AM
I have just watched the 'Montferrat - Jade Raymond Walkthrough' video (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26570.html) and it didn't meet my expectations and desires in some parts. So much so, I sought out this forum to see if anyone shared any similar views so I could participate in a constructive discussion.

We are all looking for something from this game, and each of our desires is different. Some people will settle for less of something to satisfy why they play the game, some won't.

There's no need to verbally attack anyone if their desires or expectations are different to yours, especially when their expectations and desires are reasonable and fair within the scope of the game.



My issue is namely about the 'one at a time' situation, where Altair is surrounded by 10 or more guards and they attack him pretty much 1 at a time.

I too practice martial arts, and guards would be trained to deal with an opponent, in close quarters and in groups with several or more people (there in a populated city after all with narrow streets!)

It's true, if 30 people attack 1 person, all 30 people cannot attack at the same time. In these scenarios, 2-4 people would attack at the same time, whilst the remaining 25 would strategically block exits, call in archers, organise the next waves of attack, and generally try and demoralise the opponent.

Several times in the video I have linked, Altair backs into a soldier, and the soldier is just holding his sword out, when Altair should be stabbed in the back.

I was happy to see at one point in the video, whilst Altair was attacking one guard, another guard took the opportunity to hit Altair whilst Altair was busy attacking someone. You can see this at 6 minutes and 12 seconds in to that video. So there is hope at least! of what I am looking for, although this is what I(!) would like to see more of.

I emphasised 'I' there because this goes back to what I desire out of the game. For some other players, they may be very happy with not having what I desire at all. And they are perfectly entitled to what they want. There's just no need to become insulting over a difference of what you want from the game compared to someone else. Just except that.

I was also concerned about how easy Altair could take out those soldiers on the rooftops before the assasination. There were soldiers on the rooftops, supposedly on the look out all around that area. Except Altair killed them each, one by one in plane, clear view of the other rooftop soldiers.

Here is where I get greedy, I want something from another game I enjoyed in this one. Anyone played Commando's behind enemy lines? In that game you had lines of sight. It made it hard to kill a person if they were in the line of sight of another. This line of sight made that game more realistic, and would have made this assassins creed video more realistic. Sure, when Altair killed those rooftop soldiers, the other soldiers might have been facing a different direction, it was hard to tell due to the lower quality video I watched. But I get the feeling from that video that it wouldn't have mattered if those other soldiers in the near distance were facing me or not. For example, right after the first rooftop kill at 4 minutes 3 seconds, the camera eventually pans round and at 4 minutes and 6 seconds, you can see a soldier in the background who would have seen the whole thing. There were other soldier too, but as I said, the quality of the video didn't allow me to see the details.

And ultimately, there's always going to be a trade off between realism vs fun. And the best games get this right. Sure, I recognise where Altair jumps into the hey to hide might not be realistic, but I can live with that. But some of the combat issues are harder for me to swallow. Will it stop me from getting the game?. No. I'm looking forward to playing it none the less.

But by sharing my thoughts and putting them out there, there is a better chance that one day someone might pick up on what I'm saying and make game that caters to my market of players. And that's what this is about, you can't please everyone.

I like the look of the game, graphics are great. The exploration and ability to see the entire city is nice, having the freedom and athletic ability to explore that is something I look forward to. More combat ability is what interests me, having played the prince of persia series, this is a major pulling point for me. I can see it getting better, but for me, there's still some glaring issues.

There's no need to resort to over exaggerating extremes of arguing about only 1 vs 1 combat or 30 on 1 combat. There is middle ground where this game could be improved.

mdurks1981
10-18-2007, 07:27 AM
Oh, to add further comments on what I liked/disliked from the video...

From 6 minutes and 20 seconds onward, there a several guards that could have attacked Altair's back. And at 6 minutes and 23 seconds for the following few seconds, there were swords right next to Altair's head!

What I did enjoy seeing again at 6 minutes and 44 seconds was a guard attack Altair's back whilst Altair was busy.

There are quite a few other subtleties like after 6 minutes 46, after the 'foot stab', the soldier in the top left of the screen, that's close to Altair, is freaked out, by what I can only imagine to be blood spray that might have sprayed on him. That soldier seemed injured, and probably demoralised, hence him not attacking, but waving his hands earlier when Altair was knocked down. This soldier promptly got struck in the head at 6 minutes 48.

I also like at 7 minutes 58, where you can use a human shield against the archer.

chickmgnt222
10-18-2007, 07:33 AM
I could have sworn I saw a fight in a vid where two guards took a swipe at Altair during a fight at the same time...

lpcrispo
10-18-2007, 07:45 AM
anyway, if the gard where all attacking Altaïr in the back, the game would be NOT FUN.

It's sacrificing realism for FUN... it's ok to do this in a videogame.

zeldapsychology
10-18-2007, 08:00 AM
Console only allow so much. Based off of info. from the 360 and PS3 versions I am feel 100% this is NOT possible on the DS or Mobile. What you are describing is alot. Hey I want Pixar graphics for consoles but is it going to happen? (No!) As systems get better the interaction to that degree seems possible. In one video Jade said if you push down the delivery guy carrying a box you'll raise suspition and in the real world if I bump into you do you freak out perhaps or you could think it was a mere accident. :-) Trust games will get to that level eventually. :-)

MeAltairLol
10-18-2007, 08:28 AM
@ Royal.Mist: If you don't like the game, then don't buy, and don't come to these forums ranting about it. And certainly don't come here and insult us.

@ mdurks1981:: I respect your opinion, but the thing that made me respect it was the way you simply said it. Not shouting, or insulting (Royal.Mist). Just... said it.

BTW, why has there been so much "OMFG AC SUXORZ LMZAO!211!21!!" Threads recently?

Robbinho1992
10-18-2007, 09:24 AM
In answer to some things, which from the mass of info i managed to weed out. Im sure at some point that the OP was complaing how he was pushing people out the way and that they werent really stoping him or making a roadblock. This is becuase they were not unfriendly or Friendly, just normall and did not want to take the risk of being killed. And, maybe you have forgotten. But these are demo's, and it could be quiote possible for Patrice and UBI to edit the game so that certain things happen so they can show off certain features.

I beleive that no one can say that this game is going to be great or really bad, as noone has ever actually played it. Until then everyone can just speculate. If your going to buy it, buy it, if these small things annoy you, then go wait/play another game and stop insulting putting down people here.

EDIT: What i failed to add was that, in the first Demo i beilve, myabe the second. Did not Patrice go the wrong way after a murder, being heatedly followed by the guards, he ran to the Gates, which Abruptly closed infront of him. The following fight only put Altair to his demise, thus the on****ht of multiple enemies cut him down.

And also...Its a GAME!!! It cant be everything you think it will be.

moonsongv1
10-18-2007, 09:25 AM
The original poster does have a point about being bumrushed. How cool would it be if the gaurds bumrushed you. Being the quick thinker you are jump up and grab something to raise above the gaurds and they all crash together into a lump of bodies. Also, if you fall down you should be skewered. I'm sure that if a group of people were trying to apprehend someone and he fell down they would let him get up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

zgubilici
10-18-2007, 09:38 AM
Let's not resort to insults and flamings.
If you want to contribute to this topic, do so constructively, without "complimenting" your fellow forum member in a manner in which you wouldn't want to be addressed either.
Thanks.

Dvlos56
10-18-2007, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by fiso16:
i seriously cant even start to mention how i dont like people like you. these developers work their butts off trying to make this game good and then you come in and tell them all these negative things.

First of all you're ignorant, I won't step so low as to say I don't like you because you're a 'blind fanboy' I could, but that's just not what a forum discussion should be about. I also am not TROLLING the forum for arguements but I am questioning things I see that I do not like or hope are not in the game or perhaps adjustable by going to higher difficulty.

Second, I have bought every Splinter Cell game, Rainbow Six games on the PC and the Xbox, a huge fan of the Splinter Cell series, I bought Brothers in Arms II, Far Cry, Ghost Recan Adv. Warfighter I and II, PoP: sands of time, and Silent Hunter III and IV. Do I appreciate Ubisoft's efforts? I think the games I own prove that, if their games were not fun I wouldn't keep coming back to buy more. However this is/was a HUGELY anticipated title of mine, and I have doubts. Nothing more.

I also think that the things I talk about would actually improve the game not hinder it. There are other games, mainly stealth, where being outnumbered = death. I do not think AC would be a worse of game if it included that. Same with the crowd AI, I also think that if the reason AI/game mechanics cannot be improved because all the CPU/GPU resources are being tasked with this impressive graphics engine it should be scaled back. Sorry I think AI/gameplay require a certain degree of importance or else the graphics mean nothing.

Don't blind yourself because you like swords, or medieval combat, and the nice animations that no one can come in and comment negatively on things they see.


i bet you dont know how to make a game of this quality

It doesn't matter I'm a consumer, what I do know is I don't want to buy a game that bores me after 2 hours.


research the flaws, is just dumb and shows absoloutley no respect and appreciation for the people who make this happen.

Showing off flashy graphics and making it too easy, while promising the game will be deep, have advanced AI, a assassin/sandbox game that's complex as well as cinematic and not deliver on those promises is insulting. And to have me accept that without question IS insulting. Oh I guess parading around Jade Raymond- "Oh hey guys its a GIRL THE GAME MUST BE GOOD!" -running damage control can also be construed as insulting if you want to look at it that way.


Also in the demo at E3/06 Jade mentioned that this is not a game where you can take lots of damage and carry on running like the terminator

Yeah she does say it, and it was said in the E3 2006 demonstration as with the narrated Mont. demo on IGN. I just don't "see" it.. there could be a reason for that I just would like to know what it is. That's all.

For example, maybe the game is on easy, fine.. if turning on hard makes the enemy chase you around, see you from farther away, makes taking on 10 guards very, very difficult, with chases being even harder to pull off because of archers and stone throwers UNLESS you're stealthy and dodgy in your escape efforts.. I would be VERY happy.

If the answer as to why it looks so easy is "Look we want to get a lot of people to buy this game so all we have is these here pretty graphics and no depth" that would be VERY disappointing. I don't mind if a game includes modes to cater to the novice and uninitiated, but if you don't cater to seasoned veteran gamers at all, you're wasting the time of many, many potential customers.


Which brings me to another point, you can't tell EXACTLY what the AI is like, until you play. What if the AI is absolutely breathtaking, and smart, and incredibly fun?

Thank you for not coming in with your flame hat on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .. in that case I would be very happy. It's also possible that in this first city, the only city they are showing off right now, everything IS incredibly easy. But that the middle and later stages of the game everything becomes more complex. Forcing you to be more acrobatic/creative in your actions. I would be happy with that. These things have not been seen by anyone, so that's why I'm very skeptical.

membernametaken
10-18-2007, 12:01 PM
No one is attacking you, Dvlos. You've presented yourself with civility and have shown that you can contsruct rational thoughts, putting them into text form.

Unfortunately, the people that are backing you up are giving you a bad name; take Royal.Mist, for example. In the same post where he calls me "thick", calls AirRon a "smartass" and says his words are "bull****"; he says "Don't flame me for my opinion, rebut with sense and respect and I'll do the same."

Now, if that's not a perfect example of a hypocrite, I don't know what is.

On-topic: The THEORIES have both been presented on both sides of the spectrum and what I said earlier, still stands. No one has presented any hard evidence, (even me), as there have been absolutely no links to videos that everyone is referring to. If you are going to bash a game or someone else's opinion, you should probably have some sort of example showing what you are talking about.

Like I said, I haven't shown anything either since, i'm at work but, maybe i'll try and find some videos to post later where people will actually see what i'm talking about.

Oh, and Royal.Mist, all I can do is direct you to my sig. Have a blessed day.

Karl_93
10-18-2007, 12:02 PM
cant...read... anymore... "starts hyperventilating"
wheres my asthma medicine!!

Dvlos56
10-18-2007, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by membernametaken:
No one is attacking you, Dvlos. You've presented yourself with civility and have shown that you can contsruct rational thoughts, putting them into text form.

Ok thanks for this, all I wanted was an honest civil discussion. The charts posted on this page are interesting, I would love to see a video of this in action. Like probably most of the people here the E3 2006 early demos of AC were very impressive, I'm just hoping some of the things they wanted to accomplish were accomplished.

Nothing would make me happier than thinking I managed to ninja drop on my target, and escape across a few rooftops and think to myself "hahaha that was easy!" only to run into a crowd of angry peasants who are tossing stones at you and blocking your apparently easy exit until a pile of guards arrives. Requiring an improvised change of plans, and a shift in thinking.. perhaps I'll go back to the city and make friends with beggars and shopkeepers so they help me escape later? Maybe I won't jump on the target until he's alone?

Luckily the game's right around the corner, like I said earlier the videos could shown off on "easy" and perhaps on God mode, for the sake of making a trailer. I can live with that IF there's a Hard mode that's more to my liking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, if anyone has links to videos showing whats in those posted E3 slides let me know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SwitchBlade975
10-18-2007, 01:35 PM
the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3

Where did you hear this? On 360 more people react in the same way to PS3. PS3 has more personalities for the crowd therefore more people act differently. PS3 AI is better than 360.




What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?


Again, wrong! There is a woman and if you do a side mission to help her out her son and his friends get in the guards way purposely to help you out.


I do not agree with anything you have mentioned in this post, sorry. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

moonsongv1
10-18-2007, 01:57 PM
Being surrounded by 20 gaurds hacking at you would be great if the game gave you the controls to get out of the situation. I'm all for sneaking and not fighting 20 at a time but if you ever got in that scenario it would be nice to not have the enemies act like ******s. Instead put more weight on player skill to get out of a jam then pants on head ******ed AI.

gaurd, "We've finally got him now. He's surrounded 8 to 1."

gaurd 2, "Great, now to ensure he gets away we must only attack him one at a time and never strike from the back even though he would stick a dagger in the back of my head without hesitation."

gaurd 3, "what if we knock him down?"

gaurd 4 "good question? anyone?"

gaurd 5 "we cannot strike him while he is down. That would kill him and we can't do that. He must get away and come back to kill more of our leaders."

gaurd 6- too busy picking his nose to comment.

Gaurd 7,"why do we always get the short end of the stick?"

gaurd 8,"because it's a video game and the difficulty level can't be set higher than the average 6 year old can handle. The creators want to make money and hard games don't sell, remember Ninja Gaiden."

Altair, "So you guys gonna attack or can I finish toasting this pop tart?"

Dvlos56
10-18-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by SwitchBlade975:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3

Where did you hear this? On 360 more people react in the same way to PS3. PS3 has more personalities for the crowd therefore more people act differently. PS3 AI is better than 360. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Arstechnica's article regarding their hardware tests on both consoles kind of make it seem that the 360 has more CPU power for general purpose computing (althought that advantage is slight) and that the PS3 should have more potential for better graphics (although that advantage is slight, and not yet visible in most crossover titles).

The "general purpose computing" according to Arstechnica, meant that the 360 is better lent for more onscreen enemies, better AI, and perhaps even better physics, although that really has been hard to determine. The arguement is apparently null and void because Ubisoft claims both versions are the same.

The tendency has been for all cross-platform games that are developed with PC/360 as the lead platform that the PS3 versions are not as sharp/smooth/lit as nicely. I don't make the rules, don't get mad at me, that's what the current trends have shown. (Keep in mind that the 3rd wave of PS3 games will hit early to mid 2008, and those games are shaping up to look much nicer and utilize the PS3's hardware a lot better.. look at MGS4).


Again, wrong! There is a woman and if you do a side mission to help her out her son and his friends get in the guards way purposely to help you out.

Thanks for the emphatic ! I wasn't sure how wrong I was until I saw the ! I guess asking for links to videos showing this in action is too much to ask since I am ! wrong ! if the crowd does in fact help/hinder you a great deal I would love to see it.

AngryMob
10-18-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by membernametaken:
No one is attacking you, Dvlos. You've presented yourself with civility and have shown that you can contsruct rational thoughts, putting them into text form.

Ok thanks for this, all I wanted was an honest civil discussion. The charts posted on this page are interesting, I would love to see a video of this in action. Like probably most of the people here the E3 2006 early demos of AC were very impressive, I'm just hoping some of the things they wanted to accomplish were accomplished.

Nothing would make me happier than thinking I managed to ninja drop on my target, and escape across a few rooftops and think to myself "hahaha that was easy!" only to run into a crowd of angry peasants who are tossing stones at you and blocking your apparently easy exit until a pile of guards arrives. Requiring an improvised change of plans, and a shift in thinking.. perhaps I'll go back to the city and make friends with beggars and shopkeepers so they help me escape later? Maybe I won't jump on the target until he's alone?

Luckily the game's right around the corner, like I said earlier the videos could shown off on "easy" and perhaps on God mode, for the sake of making a trailer. I can live with that IF there's a Hard mode that's more to my liking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, if anyone has links to videos showing whats in those posted E3 slides let me know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i want to see those diagrams in action as well because you are right in the crowd we havent seen much diversity, but i think (which i stated before also) the reason we have not seen the diversity is because we see demos that skip entire portions of the game and the consequences that come along with those parts. if you never do any side quests then you get the bare minimum of the gameplay with less elements in the crowd and whatnot.


Originally posted by SwitchBlade975:
On 360 more people react in the same way to PS3. PS3 has more personalities for the crowd therefore more people act differently. PS3 AI is better than 360.

where did you hear that PS3 AI was better? <STRIKE>ive heard 360 AI is better but i think that was just a hype rumor or was true for a short time and got changed.</STRIKE>


Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Uh, I think the whole "Medieval people took turns fighting" is the most inaccurate argument I've read in a while. How do you think people in the middle ages went to war? They all charged each other and smacked swords and shields until you died. Usually they formed a wall so that their attacks had LESS chance at hitting a friendly.

maybe im wrong and sumone correct me if i am but the phalanx and battle cry then charge was like back in romans time which was long before 1191 during the medieval time, so the whole chivalry idea was going on during all the crusades.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:
Being surrounded by 20 gaurds hacking at you would be great if the game gave you the controls to get out of the situation. I'm all for sneaking and not fighting 20 at a time but if you ever got in that scenario it would be nice to not have the enemies act like ******s. Instead put more weight on player skill to get out of a jam then pants on head ******ed AI.

gaurd, "We've finally got him now. He's surrounded 8 to 1."

gaurd 2, "Great, now to ensure he gets away we must only attack him one at a time and never strike from the back even though he would stick a dagger in the back of my head without hesitation."

gaurd 3, "what if we knock him down?"

gaurd 4 "good question? anyone?"

gaurd 5 "we cannot strike him while he is down. That would kill him and we can't do that. He must get away and come back to kill more of our leaders."

gaurd 6- too busy picking his nose to comment.

Gaurd 7,"why do we always get the short end of the stick?"

gaurd 8,"because it's a video game and the difficulty level can't be set higher than the average 6 year old can handle. The creators want to make money and hard games don't sell, remember Ninja Gaiden."

Altair, "So you guys gonna attack or can I finish toasting this pop tart?"
but the game had to mix 3 playstyles into 1 game.
if you want stealth then you get social stealth, its not splinter cell hide in shadows and strike at the right moment, nor is it hitman style of stealth, but it does its job.

if you want fighting then you get 1v1or2 sword duels not knowing which of the 8 around you might be the second guys and maybe when you actually play its not as easy as patrice(sp? sorry if its wrong) makes it look. also this isnt as great as a PoP style of fighting if thats what you want, or halo fps if thats what you want, or maybe you love elder scrolls rpg fighting, BUT you get this balancing act that is different than any other game and it does its job.

lastly if you want the freerunning and "flowerbox" style of the game, and you got it in a completely unique style. you dont get a jump button but instead you get to choose from any direction which way you want to go and the game decides and executes the jump or climb or drop or manuever however it needs to be done. again it might not be the best sand/flowerbox ever made (in my book this looks amazing and is the best but w/e) but it does its job(and does it well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).

to me i guess since they combined all 3 into 1 you are not going to get the best of any 1 of them.instead you get pretty darn good on my scale in all 3, and you get choose and mix them all together however you want. you can sneak through town then jump on a building climb around near your target then jump down and get into a big duel.

EDIT: cross out the AI stuff Dvlos56 answered mucho better than i did......
EDIT2: there we go its got the whole darn quote there now but that didnt change the rest of the post so it didnt matter

moonsongv1
10-18-2007, 02:44 PM
You only quoted one sentence of the thought. It's out of context in relation to the argument and it still doesn't change the fact that the AI looks ******ed. At least the close combat AI.

Thebrownfish
10-18-2007, 06:12 PM
"Most of the enemies, particularly the city guards, aren't too bright, but you'll still have to keep your head down or they'll be after you in numbers. "

Direct quote from the article below. Aint creating a seperate thread for it as there aint much in it but that last sentance of the second last paragraph is worth a thousand words i guess. Read for yourself.

Poor AI Linkage (http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=659)

fGuppy88
10-18-2007, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by chickmgnt222:
I could have sworn I saw a fight in a vid where two guards took a swipe at Altair during a fight at the same time...

Yes you did. http://www.gametrailers.com/player/19861.html

This trailer at second 53

IRT everyone

I am curious on how old some of you guys actually are. Its amusing when you guys hear one bad thing about the game you get too bent out of shape.

The combat system is good. This way you wont get OWNED and getting OWNED doesn't feel to good.

sweetlou280
10-18-2007, 08:47 PM
They aren't both attacking, Altair is attacking one, while the other attacks. They obviously run on the kind of combat that we (as Altair) are supposed to use, they attack based on oppertunity. The guy waited till Altairs back was turned...smart AI

fGuppy88
10-18-2007, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by sweetlou280:
They aren't both attacking, Altair is attacking one, while the other attacks. They obviously run on the kind of combat that we (as Altair) are supposed to use, they attack based on oppertunity. The guy waited till Altairs back was turned...smart AI

I would call that a 2 on 1 tho because altair is taking time to hit one and while he is doing that the other is hitting him.

This is also a stamina based health system (i think). So likely hood is you will be worn out with too many guys.

Lost_Runner
10-18-2007, 10:18 PM
Seriously. Some people need to adjust their expectations of this game. This isn't Assassin's Creed the demi-God we're talking about here. It's a fun, impressive game with an amazing level of interactivity. I highly doubt that the AI will revolutionize gaming, and in fact, I've never expected it to. Combat is fine. It sucked at E3 IMO, but it's well within expectations at the moment. It's not hard to overpower/kill guards, and they don't all attack at once. Boo hoo. It looks fun, and it will require some finesse to pull off.

As for the crowds... They seem to react in a very typical (video game) manner, but they're far from idiots. You can instantly guess their (limited) reactions to what you're doing, and the dynamic obstacle thing is a nice touch. Once you go in and scrutinize the **** out of it, it's sure to fall apart. But when's the last time a game didn't perform in a similar manner? As long as you're immersed in the world, and everything looks and feels 'right' (mind you, you'll be racing past/over these people, not checking to see if they've passed their quarterly IQ test) I have no complaints about the crowd AI.

Remember GTA? You could blast a whole block to Hell, and most civies didn't even flinch. Still a nice game, wasn't it? Did that take you out of the 'experience'? Don't believe the hype, and don't create unrealistic expectations. Whatever Ubi or even Patrice and Jade may be pitching, it's still just a game, and you should judge it as a game. Some elements will be new and amazingly well-realized. Others will just seem like an OK novelty. Even others will seem generic or even undercooked. I watched a Big Daddy bump into a wall seventeen times last night when I was playing BioShock, but it hasn't altered my feelings about the game.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the amount of frequent glitches we're seeing in the recent movies.

fGuppy88
10-18-2007, 10:29 PM
well said


Compare this game to most any other video game like it. It rages. What do you think will be better then this game at the moment. None end of story.

Freefall69
10-19-2007, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
well said

Compare this game to most any other video game like it. It rages. What do you think will be better then this game at the moment. None end of story.

HERE HERE!

Couldnt of put it better myself...well said my friend http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

chickmgnt222
10-19-2007, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:

Thanks for the emphatic ! I wasn't sure how wrong I was until I saw the ! I guess asking for links to videos showing this in action is too much to ask since I am ! wrong ! if the crowd does in fact help/hinder you a great deal I would love to see it.

That's like asking for a trailer to show the end of a movie so you can be sure it ends. They aren't going to show everything in videos.

Start Sarcasm
Shoot, how do we know there is more to the sci-fi than just what we've seen so far? I'm not gonna believe there is more until they show me more!
End Sarcasm

AoKH_newIdea
10-19-2007, 10:14 AM
Sorry to repeat myself, but the other thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5271081995) I posted this in was closed and it really needed to be said. Luckily this thread is missing about as much actual thought as the other one, so it still fits perfectly:


I know it's useless for me to even attempt to explain this, but I'm going to do it nonetheless, simply because I'm waiting for this Jade walkthrough video thing to load:

What we're seeing is NOT the final version of the game. We're seeing demos that we don't even deserve to see in the first place. To quote a man who had a good point (Adam Sesslar), you won't see these type of previews in any other industry. We just happen to be so lucky that the particular industry we enjoy loves to make its fans happy. The companies that show us these early previews do not owe us anything. Though, instead of taking what we can get and being thankful for it, we instead opt to criticize the very privileges that we do not deserve. Please stop (not just you, there's a lot of these ridiculous threads at the moment). You're making it worse for the rest of us.

Wait until the game is out, watch or play the game after the release, then pass judgment... but at least let the game get out of the box. Frankly, I'm ashamed to be a part of an audience that's so ungrateful. =/

P.S. - This is a very general assessment of your post. I didn't even notice the guys at the end, so I can't comment on that right now. Although, I'm sure there's an explanation for it.

moonsongv1
10-19-2007, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by AoKH_newIdea:
Sorry to repeat myself, but the other thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5271081995) I posted this in was closed and it really needed to be said. Luckily this thread is missing about as much actual thought as the other one, so it still fits perfectly:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I know it's useless for me to even attempt to explain this, but I'm going to do it nonetheless, simply because I'm waiting for this Jade walkthrough video thing to load:

What we're seeing is NOT the final version of the game. We're seeing demos that we don't even deserve to see in the first place. To quote a man who had a good point (Adam Sesslar), you won't see these type of previews in any other industry. We just happen to be so lucky that the particular industry we enjoy loves to make its fans happy. The companies that show us these early previews do not owe us anything. Though, instead of taking what we can get and being thankful for it, we instead opt to criticize the very privileges that we do not deserve. Please stop (not just you, there's a lot of these ridiculous threads at the moment). You're making it worse for the rest of us.

Wait until the game is out, watch or play the game after the release, then pass judgment... but at least let the game get out of the box. Frankly, I'm ashamed to be a part of an audience that's so ungrateful. =/

P.S. - This is a very general assessment of your post. I didn't even notice the guys at the end, so I can't comment on that right now. Although, I'm sure there's an explanation for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is almost a classic text book answer that wears thin. With every single game that gets released this always happens. People follow a game obsessively and then when a truth about a flaw comes to light they get all defensive and pull every text book answer they can find. Not only do you use the game isn't done **** or it's an early build you try to pull a guilt trip on saying I'm ashamed to be part of an audience. At first this is understandable but after it happens with every game all the time their comes a time when the consumer says enough.

Just keep telling yourself things will get more polish and all that **** but in the end they never do. Just about every video I've seen of this game has had some sort of issue. I don't even follow this game that much but every time I see a video pop up there is always something that looks off. I'd love to see a final product with enough polish that I can see my face reflect back in it but I see nothing here to warrant that. So there, dev team prove me wrong. If you can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

In all honesty sometimes it's just better not to follow progression of a game and just be content knowing nothing about it. Ignorance is bliss. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

chickmgnt222
10-19-2007, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by moonsongv1:

In all honesty sometimes it's just better not to follow progression of a game and just be content knowing nothing about it. Ignorance is bliss. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Or just realize that every idea a team has can't possibly make it in a game. And realize that that does not mean the game will now suck since it doesn't have [insert feature here].

fGuppy88
10-19-2007, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by moonsongv1:

This is almost a classic text book answer that wears thin.

Really what text book is that?


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

With every single game that gets released this always happens. People follow a game obsessively and then when a truth about a flaw comes to light they get all defensive and pull every text book answer they can find. Not only do you use the game isn't done **** or it's an early build you try to pull a guilt trip on saying I'm ashamed to be part of an audience.

Hes right when the demos came out it wasn't a polished version. Jade said it her self. If you would like I will get the video for you.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

At first this is understandable but after it happens with every game all the time their comes a time when the consumer says enough.

Kind of like how when every game comes out, no matter how good, there is always some one running it down like you? classic definition.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

Just keep telling yourself things will get more polish and all that **** but in the end they never do.

Again Jade said it her self the game wasn't finished. So we don't have to tell ourselves, she tells us.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

Just about every video I've seen of this game has had some sort of issue. I don't even follow this game that much but every time I see a video pop up there is always something that looks off.

Straight up bull sh!+. Now your just lying, your argument has too many fallacies in it.



Originally posted by moonsongv1:

I'd love to see a final product with enough polish that I can see my face reflect back in it but I see nothing here to warrant that.

Obviously you can't listen to what people have to say. Let me give you some advice, do some research before you post an argument. Jade Raymond said that the videos had glitches in them and there wasn't that many to begin with. I only saw one?


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

So there, dev team prove me wrong. If you can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

I already did. The lord only knows what the development team would do with you.

You give us hollow statements that you have to evidence behind and you also tell us straight out lyes. You have too many fallacies in your argument.

Go ahead, post something bad about the game. No matter how much you b!+ch I bet you 10 bucks it will be the best of its type beating fable and oblivion.

AoKH_newIdea
10-19-2007, 11:32 AM
This is almost a classic text book answer that wears thin. With every single game that gets released this always happens. People follow a game obsessively and then when a truth about a flaw comes to light they get all defensive and pull every text book answer they can find. Not only do you use the game isn't done **** or it's an early build you try to pull a guilt trip on saying I'm ashamed to be part of an audience. At first this is understandable but after it happens with every game all the time their comes a time when the consumer says enough.
Haha, ignorance must be bliss. You seem very content.

You can dance around the subject all you want, but the fact is, you're not watching the full version of the game. If you're going to complain about the game (which makes me wonder why you're here in the first place), at least complain about something that makes sense.

The funny thing is that, even if this was the final version, the complaint still is not legitimate. The AI is very advanced. I can see this from all the videos. The problem that the started of this thread suffers from is the fact that he was expecting some sort of miracle system that acted no different from actual humans. Unfortunately, we live in reality where there are restrictions. A computer cannot completely recreate the type of mindset a human goes through.

Although, since we're dumb enough to have that type of thinking, why don't we make a thread about it and whine with no hope of a solution?! Great idea!

Faylinks
10-19-2007, 11:54 AM
If the AI in the fight parts are like that, 1v1 and nothing else.. i will probably ovoid it and play like its real life and assasinate and get awway asap. i will just ovoid all the fights, exept for the gourds around the guy that i am assasinating. and i will just play the game like that, all steath and running/climbing.

moonsongv1
10-19-2007, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moonsongv1:

This is almost a classic text book answer that wears thin.

Really what text book is that?


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

With every single game that gets released this always happens. People follow a game obsessively and then when a truth about a flaw comes to light they get all defensive and pull every text book answer they can find. Not only do you use the game isn't done **** or it's an early build you try to pull a guilt trip on saying I'm ashamed to be part of an audience.

Hes right when the demos came out it wasn't a polished version. Jade said it her self. If you would like I will get the video for you.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

At first this is understandable but after it happens with every game all the time their comes a time when the consumer says enough.

Kind of like how when every game comes out, no matter how good, there is always some one running it down like you? classic definition.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

Just keep telling yourself things will get more polish and all that **** but in the end they never do.

Again Jade said it her self the game wasn't finished. So we don't have to tell ourselves, she tells us.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

Just about every video I've seen of this game has had some sort of issue. I don't even follow this game that much but every time I see a video pop up there is always something that looks off.

Straight up bull sh!+. Now your just lying, your argument has too many fallacies in it.



Originally posted by moonsongv1:

I'd love to see a final product with enough polish that I can see my face reflect back in it but I see nothing here to warrant that.

Obviously you can't listen to what people have to say. Let me give you some advice, do some research before you post an argument. Jade Raymond said that the videos had glitches in them and there wasn't that many to begin with. I only saw one?


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

So there, dev team prove me wrong. If you can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

I already did. The lord only knows what the development team would do with you.

You give us hollow statements that you have to evidence behind and you also tell us straight out lyes. You have too many fallacies in your argument.

Go ahead, post something bad about the game. No matter how much you b!+ch I bet you 10 bucks it will be the best of its type beating fable and oblivion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have proved nothing. The only thing that would prove anything is this. One year from now AC is still sitting on my shelf and I enjoy to play the game. At that point the devs won't care much because they already have everyone's money.

I'll care as a consumer when another game is made from the same company. At that point I'll be able to say hmm, that was those guys that made that AC game. I really liked that. I think I'll buy another game from them.

or

Hmm, that is from those AC people. What a crock of poo! I think I'll spend my money on a different game.



We will see. Only time will tell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Bottom line is if the game is as good as billed then there really is nothing to worry about....

*better than oblivion? Then AC better spin in my 360 for 6 months.

filthywalrus
10-19-2007, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by moonsongv1:


You have proved nothing. The only thing that would prove anything is this. One year from now AC is still sitting on my shelf and I enjoy to play the game. At that point the devs won't care much because they already have everyone's money.

I'll care as a consumer when another game is made from the same company. At that point I'll be able to say hmm, that was those guys that made that AC game. I really liked that. I think I'll buy another game from them.

or

Hmm, that is from those AC people. What a crock of poo! I think I'll spend my money on a different game.



We will see. Only time will tell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Bottom line is if the game is as good as billed then there really is nothing to worry about....

*better than oblivion? Then AC better spin in my 360 for 6 months.

The devs do care about how well this game does, and how people view it after they're done playing it. If people buy AC and despise it, there will be no incentive for them to make a sequel. Sequels = more money, and companies are always after more $$$. So it is really in their best interest to care what people think about the game.

You already should care about this publisher, they were responsible for Splinter Cell and PoP. Personally, the fact they made SC is enough for me to buy this game knowing nothing else about it.

Comparing this game to Oblivion is unfair. The team at Bethsoft have been making that type of game for years and years and years, and know exactly what they are doing and exactly what people like in that particular type of sandbox game. Expecting the AC team to have the same amount of foresight the guys at Bethesda did is unreasonable, especially considering this is a completely new IP.

Dvlos56
10-19-2007, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
well said


Compare this game to most any other video game like it. It rages. What do you think will be better then this game at the moment. None end of story.

If the combat IS weak, and the crowd AI is useless.. THEN:

Hitman Blood Money, Thief 3, Splinter Cell, GTA3 and Vice City, Crackdown.

Pretty graphics and big cities ONLY does not a game make.

If the level of interactivity IS there, crowd AI works, there are harder difficulty and stealth is rewarded.. then no, nothing will compare to scope of AC.

moonsongv1
10-19-2007, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by filthywalrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moonsongv1:


You have proved nothing. The only thing that would prove anything is this. One year from now AC is still sitting on my shelf and I enjoy to play the game. At that point the devs won't care much because they already have everyone's money.

I'll care as a consumer when another game is made from the same company. At that point I'll be able to say hmm, that was those guys that made that AC game. I really liked that. I think I'll buy another game from them.

or

Hmm, that is from those AC people. What a crock of poo! I think I'll spend my money on a different game.



We will see. Only time will tell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Bottom line is if the game is as good as billed then there really is nothing to worry about....

*better than oblivion? Then AC better spin in my 360 for 6 months.

The devs do care about how well this game does, and how people view it after they're done playing it. If people buy AC and despise it, there will be no incentive for them to make a sequel. Sequels = more money, and companies are always after more $$$. So it is really in their best interest to care what people think about the game.

You already should care about this publisher, they were responsible for Splinter Cell and PoP. Personally, the fact they made SC is enough for me to buy this game knowing nothing else about it.

Comparing this game to Oblivion is unfair. The team at Bethsoft have been making that type of game for years and years and years, and know exactly what they are doing and exactly what people like in that particular type of sandbox game. Expecting the AC team to have the same amount of foresight the guys at Bethesda did is unreasonable, especially considering this is a completely new IP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not the one who compared it to Oblivion. I think the poster above me did a nice job on that.

membernametaken
10-19-2007, 01:10 PM
Keep in mind, the majority of people that will buy this game will be casual gamers. They are allured by the fact that a cool, assassin is going around killing "medieval dudes."

People who are complaining about how easy this game looks to be don't mention the fact that they've been playing videogames for their entire lives.

It's either, time to admit you're "too old" for videogames or it's time to stop being completely anal about every single video preview you see come out.

In the spirit of seeing things from both sides of the discussion, as I am a mature adult and I know how to do that kind of thing, maybe the reason they aren't releasing a demo is because of the possibility that they do not want people to know how bad the AI might actually be.

As i've said before, though, i'll wait to pass judgement when i've actually played the game for myself.

P.S. The hostility in this thread is kind of ridiculous when people are basing their "hard, concrete facts (opinions)" off of videos of unfinished builds of the game.

chickmgnt222
10-19-2007, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:


If the combat IS weak, and the crowd AI is useless.. THEN:

Hitman Blood Money, Thief 3, Splinter Cell, GTA3 and Vice City, Crackdown.

Whoa whoa whoa! Party foul! Are you saying that the crowd AI in Blood Money, GTA3 and Vice City are better than AC's is looking??!?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif If so, I suggest you play those games again and refresh your memory. Besides the fact that you are saying something is concrete before it is even out yet...



If the level of interactivity IS there, crowd AI works, there are harder difficulty and stealth is rewarded.. then no, nothing will compare to scope of AC.

Wait, so, now you are using the word 'if'? Why not just stick to your guns and continue to claim AC doesn't hold up? I mean, there is overwhelming evidence, right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

fGuppy88
10-19-2007, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by moonsongv1:

You have proved nothing. The only thing that would prove anything is this. One year from now AC is still sitting on my shelf and I enjoy to play the game. At that point the devs won't care much because they already have everyone's money.

I did prove something. I proved that your claims about the video were indeed wrong. I didn't prove assassins creed will be a good game but theres more evidence that it will be a good game then it will be bad.

You don't think i didn't prove anything? Well if that makes you feel better then, if you say so.


Originally posted by moonsongv1:

I'll care as a consumer when another game is made from the same company. At that point I'll be able to say hmm, that was those guys that made that AC game. I really liked that. I think I'll buy another game from them.

or

Hmm, that is from those AC people. What a crock of poo! I think I'll spend my money on a different game.

That was unneeded posting. You proved nothing to me there. Everyone already new this. Its like someone finding electricity for the first time and they say hey look what i made.



Originally posted by moonsongv1:

We will see. Only time will tell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Your right but its a 90% chance that the game will be good, according to the evidence I have.



Originally posted by moonsongv1:

Bottom line is if the game is as good as billed then there really is nothing to worry about....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by moonsongv1:

*better than oblivion? Then AC better spin in my 360 for 6 months.

Really, Thats in the eye of the beholder. I think this game will be better then oblivion because the game play the animations and the story will be better, Unlike the kiddy Oblivion and fable.

fGuppy88
10-19-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:


If the combat IS weak, and the crowd AI is useless.. THEN:

Hitman Blood Money, Thief 3, Splinter Cell, GTA3 and Vice City, Crackdown.

Pretty graphics and big cities ONLY does not a game make.

If the level of interactivity IS there, crowd AI works, there are harder difficulty and stealth is rewarded.. then no, nothing will compare to scope of AC.

The combat is not week. Its good. Your just being stubborn now.

Its ok to give out constructive critsim but going "oh this game will suck now because im not getting owned." Like I said getting owned is not fun. Especially if your getting gayed. Half-life 2 actually did not bum rush you. If you turned your back to a tank it wouldn't shoot. I don't here any complaints. Wheres the realism in that though? News flash ITS A GAME.

Besides the only problem you mentioned was the guards don't take you on five vs 1. So? doesn't mean the combat sucks. Looks cool to me. The moves look good and the chase and the assassination looks fun as hell. The fights look fun to.

It doesn't want the players getting annoyed and frustrated by impossible situations like being swarmed by enemies.

Now if you keep on persisting the game will suck because you somehow arbitrarily came to the conclusion that the combat sucks. Then you can leave the forums for senseless spaming. You only exceed in testing our patient.

Zapages
10-19-2007, 08:13 PM
from my cynical view.... Publishers only care for money and more money.

The developers on the other had care for the how the people like, which is mostly made of casual gamers. It all ends up being in the marketing/publisher on well a game does.

It doesn't matter if the hardcore fans have a say. So keep that in mind when discussing how the game.

Companies know that hardcore gamers and all the people are guaranteed to buy the game. The main question remains will the general public know and care about this game to buy.

That is ends up in the marketing and publishers end.

mefninja
10-19-2007, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Sorry to all those highly anticipating this title, I too have been avidly following this game. Please before the flaming commences just hear me out.

The most recent vids shown on IGN (Montferrat Walkthrough and Cathedral Escape) show off many of the nice things about A/C. Those being, a huge city, nice animations, fluid climbing, and cinematic moments.

But one of the things originally pumped up by Ubisoft was the fantastic AI, (an AI system that's being used also in Splinter Cell Conviction). This crowd AI was supposed to react to your actions, aid/hinder you, and bring life to the cities you are in.

At the moment all the gameplay videos do not show this, they show off "Crowd Roadblocks" they don't really do anything. You can shove them on the floor, and still run up and assassinate your target, as you escape no one does anything except serve as a "roadblock" to get pushed over.

What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke. Considering that the 360's crowd AI is more advanced than the PS3 (supposedly!) I shudder to think what the PS3 crowd is getting in the box.

The other big thing is the assassinations you have to carry out. Making a huge commotion and being spotted doing acrobats across the city roofs should make an assassination attempt EVEN HARDER. More guards should show up, elements of the crowd, that are perhaps loyal to the enemy faction should try to stop you... trip you? Hit you with a bottle as you run by? Hang on to your outer garments? What about elements of the crowd that are friendly to you? Maybe they can help you somehow?

Now move on to combat... you've assassinated someone in broad daylight, everyone sees you including 10 guards, looks like you're outnumbered and done for!

NOPE the FaNtAsTiC AI will TAKE TURNS fighting you! There is no real reason to flee, remain stealthy, or fight them all, unless you can't handle 1v1 over and over again, you should win. Unless you can't hit PUSH repeatedly while you run away, you shouldn't be afraid of getting caught.

Graphics this generation are already great looking, more polygons will not enhance your experience anymore. Progress needs to be made with AI, physics, sound, and other oft neglected elements of gaming in order to really submerge a player in the experience. That's what caught my eye with A/C initially, they made a big deal about AI (same with SC:C) and now that they are a month away from release, it seems that the only emphasis was on the same thing all games emphasize on: Graphics, cinematics.

after playing AC.. i laugh at you and your stupidity

RetiredHatch
10-19-2007, 11:41 PM
Mr. ninja person don't talk about it please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif if you don't have anything to actually contribute to the conversation after actually playing the game why post just so mock everyone about it? Give some insight if you want but don't just post to say Hah i played ASsassin's Creed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

gorilla325
10-20-2007, 11:40 AM
people still discussin this thread? the game is not out...how could this be a topic of interest....

mefninja
10-20-2007, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by RetiredHatch:
Mr. ninja person don't talk about it please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif if you don't have anything to actually contribute to the conversation after actually playing the game why post just so mock everyone about it? Give some insight if you want but don't just post to say Hah i played ASsassin's Creed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i aint mockin no one.. i already answered questions about AI combat free running and the map.. find the thread

Iam8_Bit
10-20-2007, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by RetiredHatch:
Mr. ninja person don't talk about it please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif if you don't have anything to actually contribute to the conversation after actually playing the game why post just so mock everyone about it? Give some insight if you want but don't just post to say Hah i played ASsassin's Creed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Ever hear of a NDA(Non-disclosure Agreement)? I bet he signed one before he could even tough the game. he isn't allowed to and if he does could be sued. So you will just have to accept that he has played it, can laugh at us all and not tell us anything about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

IndigoMoon
10-21-2007, 07:12 AM
Interesting thread this is. I think I can provide us with a very simple example of a small error. Now if you would like to stay ignorant of this you'd best stop reading here. I think some people will never notice this while playing. I can imagine these people having a better playing experience when it is not pointed out to them. Here goes:

In the William de Montferrat video we see Altair jump on two wooden platforms to get from rooftop to rooftop. these platforms are suspended by a single rope. When he lands on these platforms they stay absolutely still. This is just not how it would be in the real world.

What bothers me about this is that, to me, it makes the developers look careless. They have spent so much time on the game. I just don't understand why they would leave in such a trivial error. I can understand if there is no time to implement the physics of this, but then don't use constructions like these. Just model something else instead. Like a beam protruding from the wall or something.

Unfortunately I am someone who could calculate how far the platform would swing if I had all the variables, but in this case it will just flip and hit him smack in the face. This breaks realism for me and influences my playing experience in a negative way.
I am not sure what I'm trying to prove here, I think it's that game play should always have a higher priority than graphical quality, or else everything will fall apart.

This is all my own opinion, so don't reply if you only want to flame me. It will just be a waste of everyone's time. Thank you.

fGuppy88
10-21-2007, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by IndigoMoon:
Interesting thread this is. I think I can provide us with a very simple example of a small error. Now if you would like to stay ignorant of this you'd best stop reading here. I think some people will never notice this while playing. I can imagine these people having a better playing experience when it is not pointed out to them. Here goes:

In the William de Montferrat video we see Altair jump on two wooden platforms to get from rooftop to rooftop. these platforms are suspended by a single rope. When he lands on these platforms they stay absolutely still. This is just not how it would be in the real world.

What bothers me about this is that, to me, it makes the developers look careless. They have spent so much time on the game. I just don't understand why they would leave in such a trivial error. I can understand if there is no time to implement the physics of this, but then don't use constructions like these. Just model something else instead. Like a beam protruding from the wall or something.

Unfortunately I am someone who could calculate how far the platform would swing if I had all the variables, but in this case it will just flip and hit him smack in the face. This breaks realism for me and influences my playing experience in a negative way.
I am not sure what I'm trying to prove here, I think it's that game play should always have a higher priority than graphical quality, or else everything will fall apart.

This is all my own opinion, so don't reply if you only want to flame me. It will just be a waste of everyone's time. Thank you.


Don't make a reply adn then say don't flame me. You should expect to get flame, Its how the world goes around.

I however wont flame you. I just want to ask you what video was this and if you could send me a link.

MiniAssasin
10-21-2007, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by IndigoMoon:
Interesting thread this is. I think I can provide us with a very simple example of a small error. Now if you would like to stay ignorant of this you'd best stop reading here. I think some people will never notice this while playing. I can imagine these people having a better playing experience when it is not pointed out to them. Here goes:

In the William de Montferrat video we see Altair jump on two wooden platforms to get from rooftop to rooftop. these platforms are suspended by a single rope. When he lands on these platforms they stay absolutely still. This is just not how it would be in the real world.

What bothers me about this is that, to me, it makes the developers look careless. They have spent so much time on the game. I just don't understand why they would leave in such a trivial error. I can understand if there is no time to implement the physics of this, but then don't use constructions like these. Just model something else instead. Like a beam protruding from the wall or something.

Unfortunately I am someone who could calculate how far the platform would swing if I had all the variables, but in this case it will just flip and hit him smack in the face. This breaks realism for me and influences my playing experience in a negative way.
I am not sure what I'm trying to prove here, I think it's that game play should always have a higher priority than graphical quality, or else everything will fall apart.

This is all my own opinion, so don't reply if you only want to flame me. It will just be a waste of everyone's time. Thank you.

i dont think i read anywhere that this game was trying to be realistic

Royal.Mist
10-21-2007, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by filthywalrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by membernametaken:

This is just one example of something i've seen. There was a beggar throwing rocks at you while you're trying to escape from guards and you actually slip up, almost falling off the building. The beggar probably is pissed off at you because you didn't help her, earlier. Having certain groups of AI characters remember you for your previous actions is good AI and I can't recall seeing that in any other game.

Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
Buddy, that's a guard. And after he throws the rock he bends down, picks it up and draws his sword while looking at Altair and making no attempt to follow him. That is the brilliant AI in action.


First of all, you're a ******.

Second, Altair is climbing straight up a wall. Ever see one of those videos of that french guy who climbs tall office buildings? Do you see police officers climbing up and trying to catch him? No. The guard there is wearing heavy chainmail/plate armor, a sword, and to boot is not a master assassin trained in parkour/freerunning. He would have to be a complete moron to attempt to climb up the side of a building to try and catch Altair, all things considered.

Thirdly, watch the X06 demo for the reason all the guards do not attack at once, it is incredibly obvious even to someone like yourself who has a problem with simple reasoning and logic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One, whatever you think. I'm not going to argue with the hardest keyboard commando here.

Two, the AI fallacy is not that he does not follow Altair but that he draws his sword and watches instead of continuing to throw his rock. Don't try to act like you're smart, you only look like a **** in front of all the other commandos.

Three, there should be no reason. None. Average gamer is 23 not 6. I'm sure we can handle stealth.

fGuppy88
10-21-2007, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:

One, whatever you think. I'm not going to argue with the hardest keyboard commando here.

Two, the AI fallacy is not that he does not follow Altair but that he draws his sword and watches instead of continuing to throw his rock. Don't try to act like you're smart, you only look like a **** in front of all the other commandos.

Three, there should be no reason. None. Average gamer is 23 not 6. I'm sure we can handle stealth.

This other guy had no right to call you a ****** but he missed something.

Your not to bright your self. All this time we have been trying to explain to you that the game is avoiding frustration. A lot of games do it. The creators of half-life like cliff top fights because its hard to miss your enemy and they can't surround you.

In fable they won't attack you from behind either. Look how successful that was.

This is the same way with assassins creed

Just because they don't attack you from behind doesn't mean things will be easy. We know its a 1 hit one kill on the head and we never played this game before so we will just have to find out how hard it is. It sounds like to me it could be kind of hard because of all the swarming. That all takes energy away from your player you know.

Besides, we don't even know if they will attack you from behind in the final version. In that case we don't know anything about a difficulty setting either.

Your biggest mistake is that you think the game will suck because you of one thing.

If you don't like the game don't post here. If you don't like SOMETHING about the game, thats fine. Just don't sob on how its going to suck. It wont, or at least we don't know.

Royal.Mist
10-21-2007, 08:52 PM
(Originally posted by guppy) This other guy had no right to call you a ****** but he missed something.

Your not to bright your self. All this time we have been trying to explain to you that the game is avoiding frustration. A lot of games do it. The creators of half-life like cliff top fights because its hard to miss your enemy and they can't surround you.

In fable they won't attack you from behind either. Look how successful that was.

This is the same way with assassins creed

Just because they don't attack you from behind doesn't mean things will be easy. We know its a 1 hit one kill on the head and we never played this game before so we will just have to find out how hard it is. It sounds like to me it could be kind of hard because of all the swarming. That all takes energy away from your player you know.

Besides, we don't even know if they will attack you from behind in the final version. In that case we don't know anything about a difficulty setting either.

Your biggest mistake is that you think the game will suck because you of one thing.

If you don't like the game don't post here. If you don't like SOMETHING about the game, thats fine. Just don't sob on how its going to suck. It wont, or at least we don't know.

Well this would have to be the first person's post I actually bothered to read in entirety because it isn't littered with insults.

I have never said the game will suck and I'm still eagerly anticipating it but for some reason these things have just jumped out at me.

As for not being attacked from behind.... a lot of games feature being attacked from all sides. The game is actually hard which is a far cry from current titles being aimed at 10 year olds.

I remember when I first played Metal Gear Solid and I was whining to my Uncle that the game was too hard, even on easy. His response? "That's why it's rated M." (I went on to beat the game, several times, so no jovial remarks please.)

My point is that the game should be intentionally hard because there is nothing more, in my opinion, fun than getting your *** handed to you and then reloading and beating the part. I personally love the sense of achievement more than a gamer point increase.

Sure difficulty puts a lot of gamers off if they can't get passed a specific part but they aren't exactly gamers are they? They've bought a $100 game and then proceeded to put it down and have a cry because they can't get past a certain difficult part or because the end boss is too hard.

This has probably turned into a incoherent rant about how I like games to have a high degree of difficulty but oh well, it's my opinion. Though I really do hope they have difficulty levels, a great option that has been phased out by games of late...

fGuppy88
10-21-2007, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(Originally posted by guppy) This other guy had no right to call you a ****** but he missed something.

Your not to bright your self. All this time we have been trying to explain to you that the game is avoiding frustration. A lot of games do it. The creators of half-life like cliff top fights because its hard to miss your enemy and they can't surround you.

In fable they won't attack you from behind either. Look how successful that was.

This is the same way with assassins creed

Just because they don't attack you from behind doesn't mean things will be easy. We know its a 1 hit one kill on the head and we never played this game before so we will just have to find out how hard it is. It sounds like to me it could be kind of hard because of all the swarming. That all takes energy away from your player you know.

Besides, we don't even know if they will attack you from behind in the final version. In that case we don't know anything about a difficulty setting either.

Your biggest mistake is that you think the game will suck because you of one thing.

If you don't like the game don't post here. If you don't like SOMETHING about the game, thats fine. Just don't sob on how its going to suck. It wont, or at least we don't know.

Well this would have to be the first person's post I actually bothered to read in entirety because it isn't littered with insults.

I have never said the game will suck and I'm still eagerly anticipating it but for some reason these things have just jumped out at me.

As for not being attacked from behind.... a lot of games feature being attacked from all sides. The game is actually hard which is a far cry from current titles being aimed at 10 year olds.

I remember when I first played Metal Gear Solid and I was whining to my Uncle that the game was too hard, even on easy. His response? "That's why it's rated M." (I went on to beat the game, several times, so no jovial remarks please.)

My point is that the game should be intentionally hard because there is nothing more, in my opinion, fun than getting your *** handed to you and then reloading and beating the part. I personally love the sense of achievement more than a gamer point increase.

Sure difficulty puts a lot of gamers off if they can't get passed a specific part but they aren't exactly gamers are they? They've bought a $100 game and then proceeded to put it down and have a cry because they can't get past a certain difficult part or because the end boss is too hard.

This has probably turned into a incoherent rant about how I like games to have a high degree of difficulty but oh well, it's my opinion. Though I really do hope they have difficulty levels, a great option that has been phased out by games of late... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

I like a challenge. I liked halo legendary because it required a lot of smarts to win it. Thats what attracted me to it.


Unlike a fps or tps (third person shooter) this is a sandbox game and its true that not many sandbox games are that hard.


However sandbox games are different. Things will get harder and harder. Grand theft auto San Andreas I thought was hard in some aspects. The flight school was impossible. I would agree though that killing people just seemed too easy but the point was getting past all the missions. The point of the game was to make you feel like a bad ***, which in that sense its the same as assassins creed. So in order to do that they have to make game play easy and also hard. You get me?

And like I said before, we have yet to see the real game and it sounds to me like they are still making modifications even now so who knows.

I'm sure you can make it hard even if killing people is easy. You just make things a challenge. Use fists instead of blades, something like that. There was a real good pro gamer that told me the best way to get a challenge was always put a handicap on your self, doing the what your good at or whats easy wont get you any better.

However I would love to see a difficulty setting for those of us who want to have a challenge. I have a feeling that there will be may be one to because this does not seem to be your average sandbox game.

Royal.Mist
10-21-2007, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(Originally posted by guppy) This other guy had no right to call you a ****** but he missed something.

Your not to bright your self. All this time we have been trying to explain to you that the game is avoiding frustration. A lot of games do it. The creators of half-life like cliff top fights because its hard to miss your enemy and they can't surround you.

In fable they won't attack you from behind either. Look how successful that was.

This is the same way with assassins creed

Just because they don't attack you from behind doesn't mean things will be easy. We know its a 1 hit one kill on the head and we never played this game before so we will just have to find out how hard it is. It sounds like to me it could be kind of hard because of all the swarming. That all takes energy away from your player you know.

Besides, we don't even know if they will attack you from behind in the final version. In that case we don't know anything about a difficulty setting either.

Your biggest mistake is that you think the game will suck because you of one thing.

If you don't like the game don't post here. If you don't like SOMETHING about the game, thats fine. Just don't sob on how its going to suck. It wont, or at least we don't know.

Well this would have to be the first person's post I actually bothered to read in entirety because it isn't littered with insults.

I have never said the game will suck and I'm still eagerly anticipating it but for some reason these things have just jumped out at me.

As for not being attacked from behind.... a lot of games feature being attacked from all sides. The game is actually hard which is a far cry from current titles being aimed at 10 year olds.

I remember when I first played Metal Gear Solid and I was whining to my Uncle that the game was too hard, even on easy. His response? "That's why it's rated M." (I went on to beat the game, several times, so no jovial remarks please.)

My point is that the game should be intentionally hard because there is nothing more, in my opinion, fun than getting your *** handed to you and then reloading and beating the part. I personally love the sense of achievement more than a gamer point increase.

Sure difficulty puts a lot of gamers off if they can't get passed a specific part but they aren't exactly gamers are they? They've bought a $100 game and then proceeded to put it down and have a cry because they can't get past a certain difficult part or because the end boss is too hard.

This has probably turned into a incoherent rant about how I like games to have a high degree of difficulty but oh well, it's my opinion. Though I really do hope they have difficulty levels, a great option that has been phased out by games of late... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

I like a challenge. I liked halo legendary because it required a lot of smarts to win it. Thats what attracted me to it.


Unlike a fps or tps (third person shooter) this is a sandbox game and its true that not many sandbox games are that hard.


However sandbox games are different. Things will get harder and harder. Grand theft auto San Andreas I thought was hard in some aspects. The flight school was impossible. I would agree though that killing people just seemed too easy but the point was getting past all the missions. The point of the game was to make you feel like a bad ***, which in that sense its the same as assassins creed. So in order to do that they have to make game play easy and also hard. You get me?

And like I said before, we have yet to see the real game and it sounds to me like they are still making modifications even now so who knows.

I'm sure you can make it hard even if killing people is easy. You just make things a challenge. Use fists instead of blades, something like that. There was a real good pro gamer that told me the best way to get a challenge was always put a handicap on your self, doing the what your good at or whats easy wont get you any better.

However I would love to see a difficulty setting for those of us who want to have a challenge. I have a feeling that there will be may be one to because this does not seem to be your average sandbox game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's hoping.

fGuppy88
10-21-2007, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:


Here's hoping.

If you don't have faith, you don't have nothing

lol i did forget they announced that they did say that there was mo difficulty setting. Oh well. If I want to play a challenging game I will just buy something else.

Not all games have the same purpose.

Bloxham
10-21-2007, 09:45 PM
We have several people who have NOT played the game complaining about the combat.

We have several people who HAVE played the game saying the combat is great.

So shouldn't this discussion be over?

sweetlou280
10-21-2007, 09:49 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif But we aren't used to having official info...like for the past year and a half we've all been throwing darts in the dark...so we just dont know what to do.

fGuppy88
10-21-2007, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Bloxham:
We have several people who have NOT played the game complaining about the combat.

We have several people who HAVE played the game saying the combat is great.

So shouldn't this discussion be over?

I know this is the assassins creed site but theres nothing wrong with constructive criticism. The development team I bet reads on here and maybe they will get ideas for a sequel or a future game.

All games have a week point. You can't stop that.

However that doesn't mean the game can be the best of its type. The best game is the game with the least flaws. Not the game with no flaws. No such thing.

I think the subject has been discussed enough.

We will all have to conserve are judgments until after we play the game.

Bloxham
10-21-2007, 09:59 PM
I just don't see how someone can *constructively* criticize something when they haven't experienced it?

fGuppy88
10-21-2007, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Bloxham:
I just don't see how someone can *constructively* criticize something when they haven't experienced it?

They have seen it and they threw out a hypothesis. Most every judgment we make about the game is one.

I have also heard interviews that said the AI was dumb.

But none of us have came to any real conclusion.

sweetlou280
10-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bloxham:
I just don't see how someone can *constructively* criticize something when they haven't experienced it?

They have seen it and they threw out a hypothesis. Most every judgment we make about the game is one.

I have also heard interviews that said the AI was dumb.

But none of us have came to any real conclusion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never heard anywhere where they say the AI is dumb...give me a link.

fGuppy88
10-21-2007, 10:48 PM
http://www.pro-g.co.uk/ps3/assassins_creed/preview-657.html


Even when surrounded by ten guards, you're not in massive trouble. They won't all attack at once, instead stalking,

and forums

such as game spot

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/assassinscreed/s...98&pid=930278&page=0 (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/assassinscreed/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-38832598&pid=930278&page=0)

filthywalrus
10-22-2007, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by filthywalrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by membernametaken:

This is just one example of something i've seen. There was a beggar throwing rocks at you while you're trying to escape from guards and you actually slip up, almost falling off the building. The beggar probably is pissed off at you because you didn't help her, earlier. Having certain groups of AI characters remember you for your previous actions is good AI and I can't recall seeing that in any other game.

Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
Buddy, that's a guard. And after he throws the rock he bends down, picks it up and draws his sword while looking at Altair and making no attempt to follow him. That is the brilliant AI in action.


First of all, you're a ******.

Second, Altair is climbing straight up a wall. Ever see one of those videos of that french guy who climbs tall office buildings? Do you see police officers climbing up and trying to catch him? No. The guard there is wearing heavy chainmail/plate armor, a sword, and to boot is not a master assassin trained in parkour/freerunning. He would have to be a complete moron to attempt to climb up the side of a building to try and catch Altair, all things considered.

Thirdly, watch the X06 demo for the reason all the guards do not attack at once, it is incredibly obvious even to someone like yourself who has a problem with simple reasoning and logic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One, whatever you think. I'm not going to argue with the hardest keyboard commando here.

Two, the AI fallacy is not that he does not follow Altair but that he draws his sword and watches instead of continuing to throw his rock. Don't try to act like you're smart, you only look like a **** in front of all the other commandos.

Three, there should be no reason. None. Average gamer is 23 not 6. I'm sure we can handle stealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. I love how you insult me, call me a "keyboard commando", yet in a later post put in a whine about how "you don't read posts riddled with insults".

And look at the rock, it's a decent sized thing. When he stopped throwing the rock, that's because Altair had passed out of his throwing distance. I love how you throw in your little "commando" comment is thrown in there, like it's a real burn. It's almost childlike. Equivalent to a kid on the playground yelling "Yeah, well you guys are stupid!!!" after he lost a game of four-square. You say "don't try to act like you're smart", but you're not even able to figure out people cannot throw large, heavy objects infinite distances.

Third, you obviously don't know anything about this game. This game isn't trying to be Splinter Cell or MGS, it's trying to be Assassins Creed. If you want to go play a stealth game, just go pick up the latest Splinter Cell or preorder the new MGS. They want to "establish a new IP", not make another stealth game set in a different time period.

filthywalrus
10-22-2007, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
http://www.pro-g.co.uk/ps3/assassins_creed/preview-657.html


Even when surrounded by ten guards, you're not in massive trouble. They won't all attack at once, instead stalking,

and forums

such as game spot

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/assassinscreed/s...98&pid=930278&page=0 (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/assassinscreed/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-38832598&pid=930278&page=0)

The AI is not dumb. It is just programmed not to attack all at once, so it is actually possible to win a fight against more than three guys. I, personally, would not like this game if you simply got slaughtered if you messed up and ended up having to fight a sizable number of guards.

AirRon_2K7
10-22-2007, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by Bloxham:
We have several people who have NOT played the game complaining about the combat.

We have several people who HAVE played the game saying the combat is great.

So shouldn't this discussion be over?

I'm going to quote that EVERYtime someone says the combat is rubbish... thanks for saying that.. its soo true lol.

ikbengeband
10-22-2007, 07:45 AM
the combat looks cool only the ai seems an bit stupid because they are just waiting, and you dont have to play the game to say that.

chickmgnt222
10-22-2007, 08:12 AM
If anyone is still unsure about the combat, just got to 50sec in this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZhewGHf8Gk&mode=related&search=

ikbengeband
10-22-2007, 10:31 AM
its still the same combat

fGuppy88
10-22-2007, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by filthywalrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fGuppy88:
http://www.pro-g.co.uk/ps3/assassins_creed/preview-657.html


Even when surrounded by ten guards, you're not in massive trouble. They won't all attack at once, instead stalking,

and forums

such as game spot

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/assassinscreed/s...98&pid=930278&page=0 (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/assassinscreed/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-38832598&pid=930278&page=0)

The AI is not dumb. It is just programmed not to attack all at once, so it is actually possible to win a fight against more than three guys. I, personally, would not like this game if you simply got slaughtered if you messed up and ended up having to fight a sizable number of guards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

? Go back and re read my posts. I never said that guards SHOULD be bum rushing us. What I said if there was a difficulty level it would be a interesting augmentation.

chickmgnt222
10-22-2007, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by ikbengeband:
its still the same combat

Then the conversation should be done with. It clearly shows Altair getting hacked up by multiple guards swinging at the same time.

ikbengeband
10-22-2007, 12:10 PM
no they still wait

AirRon_2K7
10-22-2007, 12:20 PM
Well since people played the game really recently, and didn't report about any annoyances like that then maybe:

Its been 'fixed'
It wasn't even like that in the first place
It isn't a problem
You talk to much
They don't still wait

rogue_tom
10-22-2007, 01:15 PM
All games hype up there ai and never has it ever lived up to anyone expectations. I agree better ai would be great but this won't happen for a while, not until the average gamer wants it. Smart ai = difficult and people don't like that.

ikbengeband
10-22-2007, 01:24 PM
do you mean it is difficult to make smart ai or that the game is difficult when the ai is smart. because in the last case i think much people would like it when its difficult so i dont think thats an problem.

Dvlos56
10-22-2007, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dvlos56:
If the combat IS weak, and the crowd AI is useless.. THEN:


The combat is not week. Its good. Your just being stubborn now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What? Do you not see the "IF" quantifying statement? You're just being foolish and so buried in "evidence" you missed key words that change the meaning of a sentence.

Second even if YOU played it and YOU think the combat is "good" how is that what I was asking regarding the combat? You don't provide details or proof that you've tested the combat and that it is:

A) Rewarding you for being more stealthy
B) Challenging despite the 1-on-1 scenarios
C) A better game because it's 1-on-1


Posted by chkmgnt222:
Whoa whoa whoa! Party foul! Are you saying that the crowd AI in Blood Money, GTA3 and Vice City are better than AC's is looking??!?! [...]

Wait, so, now you are using the word 'if'? Why not just stick to your guns and continue to claim AC doesn't hold up? I mean, there is overwhelming evidence, right?

Did you read my posts at all, or at the hint of anti-AC'ism you quickly donned your favorite prophet Muhammed ski-mask and started stabbing at your keyboard with your rubber dagger? I never said I had OVERWHELMING evidence that AC would suck. I never said I knew what the game was like, no, I observed the most recently released gameplay videos and commented on things that I see that I might not like as well as, things I did like.

There are people in this thread that think a circle of enemies in taking turns attacking you 1v1 is a "good" idea. Yet a comment of "I played the game its good" does nothing for those who perhaps want a level of challenge not found in Street Fighter: Allah Edition. To those people "good" might not be what they're looking for period.

To those saying "Oh man a game with 3 people attacking you would be no fun, losing is no fun" I don't understand this reasoning. There are plenty of games that have you fighting more than 1 person at once. You also bypass COMPLETELY the arguement that if you are careless, noisy, and basically a bumbling clumsy player with no style or finess then you WILL face more than 1 guard AND you SHOULD lose.

Why? Because that's what makes logical sense, in both video games and real life. If someone where tasked to assassinate some high ranking official in some government installation.. and that someone walked in, shot people in the face, threw grenades everywhere and shouted at the top of his lungs "Hey I -AM- The Walrus!!" he'll be so dead before he gets near whoever he's supposed to take out. However if that person was stealthy and sneaky he MIGHT get away with it, and MAY have a chance at escape. I seriously doubt that said hypothetical modern day assassin would enter a imaginary boxing ring with 10 guys who are more than eager to wait their turn on him/her.

But before anyone says (yet again for some reason) but WAIT.. if they made the game CHALLENGING (by facing 14 guys at once) and you LOSE (because you were a clumsy banana-mating fiend the entire game) that's no FUN (because you don't understand that not every game has to sport a hero/heroine with Master Chief resilience)...

There are OTHER games that have ALREADY (let's cap a lot of words!) done this! Yes! There are many games out there that are both FUN, and reward you or make your life easier when you DO play with some style and finesse. Really! I kid not! Assassin's Creed could be such a game if it wants to be! It could force you to flee if surrounded, because only a lunatic would stick around to face 10 armed guards that have completely surrounded him! Games that use logic! How can that be?!

All these apparent game testers on this forum have also failed to explain or rectify doubts regarding the crowd AI, or how it works.

Fine, we'll all have to wait for the game release, but you cannot fault me for having doubts from watching these videos (I'm not even the only one with the same questions).

Thatloasekid
10-22-2007, 01:57 PM
haha no offense but I have to completely disagree with you, realistic... If I saw lets say someone I admire get knifed in broad daylight by a cloaked man I'm not going to try and stop him no I'm going to run for my life! No matter how loyal I am to him I'm not stupid enough to try and stop the man who killed the man I admired and felt was unstoppable in a way. The combat system is fine, if all the guards were to strike at once they'd most likely hit each other instead of him, there isn't enough room for 10 guards to hit one guy... Come on...

Dvlos56
10-22-2007, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Thatloasekid:
haha no offense but I have to completely disagree with you, realistic... If I saw lets say someone I admire get knifed in broad daylight by a cloaked man I'm not going to try and stop him no I'm going to run for my life! No matter how loyal I am to him I'm not stupid enough to try and stop the man who killed the man I admired and felt was unstoppable in a way. The combat system is fine, if all the guards were to strike at once they'd most likely hit each other instead of him, there isn't enough room for 10 guards to hit one guy... Come on...

Your leader/friend gets stabbed in the back because he wasn't looking and an assassin snuck up on him suddenly, but you and your buddies (all better armed and armored) have him right in front of you, in fact all you have to do is probably stick your sword out in front of you because his knife is buried in your friend/leader and your next logical choice is to run? A trained soldier, or knight, that's been fighting and training to fight since he was a boy... would run? Nor that people that are side-by-side could swing in unison and not hit each other, or at the very least corner the person so that he cannot escape until someone arrows him in the face?!

I guess the lesson here is don't hire or befriend cowards.

mefninja
10-22-2007, 02:12 PM
this thread is getting tired. First you got people bashing the game based off what the have seen and people defending based off what people who played it has said. There is always going to be some jerk who bashes a game for w/e reason because they can. Some people just have to complain about everything that may look wrong and they have the right to. Its anoying and stupid but to arguee with someone soo ignorant is just endless and not even worth your time.

being one of the few who has played the game.. the AI is good.. people who dont understand why the dont all attack at once dont understand a few simple things about sharp objects in a crowd of people. In no situation will you see even 3 guys swing a sword at the same time at someone. and if they do they will possible hit their commrad.. just like what happens in AC when they even try to attack you all at once.. and from my experience they attack more often depend on how they have you surrounded.. if they are all infront of you they wont attack all at once.. if they are fully surrounding you they will attack more often..

Anyways this wont go anywhere cause if people are still argueing that the AI sucks after people who played it said its good.. they are just to ignorant to admit they where wrong and shouldn't have even complained about something they didn't know to begin with.

(typing with a broken hand)

chickmgnt222
10-22-2007, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:

Did you read my posts at all, or at the hint of anti-AC'ism you quickly donned your favorite prophet Muhammed ski-mask and started stabbing at your keyboard with your rubber dagger? I never said I had OVERWHELMING evidence that AC would suck. I never said I knew what the game was like, no, I observed the most recently released gameplay videos and commented on things that I see that I might not like as well as, things I did like.

Dude. Chill. It was sarcasm. No need to resort to flaming me. Although, you never really did answer either of my questions, no matter how much sarcasm was thrown in with them. I am really curious to your answer to these.

Dvlos56
10-22-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by mefninja:
jerk who bashes a game for w/e reason because they can.

Noting something odd or that might not be good gameplay is not a "jerk bashing the game".


being one of the few who has played the game.. the AI is good.. people who dont understand why the dont all attack at once dont understand a few simple things about sharp objects in a crowd of people.

This is beaten to death, finally I will rest my case with this, find me proof that people in medieval or any sword fighting era, fought only 1v1 because their swords are sharp. Please look up and analyze battles involving Alexander the Great, various Japanese feudal era skirmishes, and European engagements, and finally yes the Crusades. If you see or read about a lot of people going to battle side by side, do not be alarmed. I did not change history to make AC less realistic ok?

What I would like you to do into some detail (or whoever has played the game) is "how is the AI" good. Which AI are you talking about Guards/Crowd? That moment in the Montferrat video with Altair taking out all the guards on the rooftop is that not as easy as it looks? Are there difficulty levels? Does the crowd really play a vital role?


AI sucks after people who played it said its good..

Guy who was raving about the game since 2006: Hey guys the game is going to be good!!
Skeptic: Those videos show dumb AI, what gives?!
Guy who was raving about the game since 2006: you are such a jerk Ubisoft poured their heart and soul into this of course it will be good!!! You can't attack 3 on 1 in real life anyway duderz.
Skeptic: wha?
Guy who played it: AI is good.
Skeptic: Thanks for the detailed explanation, I know look forward to having your opinion be MY opinion?!?!


they are just to ignorant to admit they where wrong and shouldn't have even complained about something they didn't know to begin with.

This isn't ego, I will gladly buy it if its what I am looking for and I'll be all 'OMG zomg loool lool remember when I fought 20 guys 1 on 1 and I pressed YBBY to moon the guards and farted?! lool!" right along with you.

Sorry if sometimes people who only got to play the game FOR ONLY THREE HOURS say "its good" and I don't believe them blindly and still have more questions. One thing that I find very positive regarding these play tests is that there does seem to be a pile of side missions that can be completed in various ways. That is very promising, as far as AI and combat I still have my doubts though I hope there are more videos soon.

Remember when Ubisoft went on and on about how Splinter Cell DA would have this intricate dynamic story-telling mode. This "morale" issue was going to be play a "big" part in the story telling and it ended up being this insignificant piece of the game? This happens a lot with upcoming games and the big time fans are not willing to admit that something is a flaw until months after the hype dies down.

The more information available the more people will want (or make up their minds not to want) this game. "it's good ok someone played it!" is not a compelling counter-arguement.

Dvlos56
10-22-2007, 02:55 PM
A
Originally posted by chickmgnt222:
Although, you never really did answer either of my questions, no matter how much sarcasm was thrown in with them. I am really curious to your answer to these.

What questions? The only questions I see in that post have to do with me using the "If" statement (as if I changed it miraculously when you weren't looking). Which not only was answered in my reply to you Mr. Chick Magnet 22222++++, but also stated in the opening pages of this thread. You know all that "I really want to buy this game, but I think these things are holding me back" if I am "wrong" (which is hard to be wrong on an opinion, an opinion which can only be based on gameplay videos with no demo available). Not only will I buy the game, but I will surely enjoy it tremendously.

That gameplay video you linked showed guards hitting Altair in the back, it almost looked like he was in a tight spot (and thus proving two people can swing a sword at a target without lobbing each other's heads off like morons). Is that a higher difficulty? Because that was absent from the Montferrat video, is that E3 2006 footage? Why wasn't that shown in the more recent footage of the game? Did the people who played the game recently at Ubisoft experience combat that was more like the video you linked, or the strange 1v1 shown in Montferrat?

As far as your "If" question, I pretty much laid out what I want. Ubisoft games are usually a lot of fun and worth the $$$ to buy, this one looks very promising, if it meets my expectations for what I would think a good assassin game should be I'll buy it and praise it accordingly. If not, then I would site other games that are better IMHO.

chickmgnt222
10-22-2007, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
What questions? The only questions I see in that post have to do with me using the "If" statement (as if I changed it miraculously when you weren't looking). Which not only was answered in my reply to you Mr. Chick Magnet 22222++++, but also stated in the opening pages of this thread. You know all that "I really want to buy this game, but I think these things are holding me back" if I am "wrong" (which is hard to be wrong on an opinion, an opinion which can only be based on gameplay videos with no demo available). Not only will I buy the game, but I will surely enjoy it tremendously.

Le sigh.
Are you saying that the crowd AI in Blood Money, GTA3 and Vice City are better than AC's is looking??!?! Also, you really didn't answer the 'if' question. You start out the thread claiming things are one way. Then you move to using 'if' statements. Now, that is the only change so one could argue you believed 'if' all along, but you didn't state so in the first post. My question regarding it was why the sudden change (if there was one)?

In any case, the game is not about combat. Hence, it is more strategic than just brawling. The game is primarily about freedom and a social stealth system. You really aren't supposed to fight people, you're supposed to sneak up on the target, make the kill in front of people, and then get the heck out of there.

And to reply to your words on an opinion, an opinion can be wrong if based on something wrong. If I am told apples came from a bush, I wouldn't think they would be hard to pick because they would be close to the ground. However, they grow on trees so my opinion that it isn't hard to pick them because they grow close to the ground is wrong. It's all in how an opinion is worded. One can make a statement that looks like fact but it is merely an opinion.

Btw, that is all just for the sake of discussion and is totally and utterly my opinion on the matter.

You do need to calm down though (or at least your posts seem to be agitated in nature). This is a discussion forum. I like to discuss. So I do.

Dvlos56
10-22-2007, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by chickmgnt222:
[QUOTE]Are you saying that the crowd AI in Blood Money, GTA3 and Vice City are better than AC's is looking??!?!

No I'm not saying that, but with the AI those games had, the stealth element, or better combat those games would be better than AC if it's built up as this epic game and all it has is "pretty graphics". .. the IF statement was to the effect that if AC had better AI and solid compelling combat to go with the graphics then it would be a far, far better game than those I mentioned.


Also, you really didn't answer the 'if' question. You start out the thread claiming things are one way.

I never claimed things are one way, please prove this if you think it to be true. I only commented on the videos, I mentioned SPECIFICALLY, that this is how it "appeared" by watching the gameplay videos, I also asked/wondered if there were harder difficulty levels that would be more challenging. I mentioned many times that gameplay details are sketchy and hard to substantiate at this moment, but if the game IS in fact good/challenging/compelling I would buy it. Why do you keep coming back to this? Seems kind of silly. Since I never claimed to be an authority or stated that "This game Is sucks doodz".


If I am told apples came from a bush, I wouldn't think they would be hard to pick because they would be close to the ground.

This analogy doesn't follow what I feel about Assassin's Creed at all. To match it more closely...

In 2006 I was told that apples grow on trees, I was shown a video of a guy climbing a ladder, nearly falling, and reaching for an apple, it cuts before he actually gets the apple and climbs down. Expectations are high.

In 2007, after many months of discussions and little tidbits about how the apples are high and very fun to get. It turns out the apples are not really apples but pears (sci-fi themes, game was originally advertised as historically based), which is fine I can live with both apples and pears.. suddenly a gameplay video is released in which the tree, is a bush! You can only pick apples one at time, you don't need a ladder, and it looks really really easy. As a matter of fact you can pick all the apples up or not, neither consequence appears challenging or compelling and a giant I WIN appears either way.

Then I say, "Hey wait a minute, that looks like a bush not a tree, where's the challenge and fun?!"

Then I get flamed by some people, while others claim that picking more than 5-6 apples at a time would be a burden, that having to use a ladder would make the game too hard, and that no one likes trees. That I shouldn't act like I can tell its a bush from the video when clearly it could be a tree.

Finally some people go to this apple/pear grove and pick apples for a while, they come back after three hours, and just say "it's fun" even if they confirm the trees are bushes, but don't really talk about the need for ladders or how challenging their trip through the game really was.

Clear enough for you? I know I'm still confused and have questions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif


Hence, it is more strategic than just brawling. The game is primarily about freedom and a social stealth system. You really aren't supposed to fight people, you're supposed to sneak up on the target, make the kill in front of people, and then get the heck out of there.

Ok what you are talking about is not what is shown though. Stealth is not seen, as Altair just kills guard in sight of others, assassinates an official and enters Street Fighter mode instead of really having a need to escape? I didn't see examples of strategy vs brawling, and that's why I have questions (as I too like you, thought the game would favor stealth/strategy).

fGuppy88
10-22-2007, 03:50 PM
What? Do you not see the "IF" quantifying statement? You're just being foolish and so buried in "evidence" you missed key words that change the meaning of a sentence.

If can also mean that your implying that assassins creed AI will be week. Your whole thesis was that the AI for Assassins creed was week. And so now your taking it back? Yes we don't know.


Second even if YOU played it and YOU think the combat is "good" how is that what I was asking regarding the combat? You don't provide details or proof that you've tested the combat and that it is:


Trailers, and reviews I can come up with a hypothesis. I did see for a fact that the Guards did not attack you but so what. Its a game! Climbing isnt realistic, the le parkour is god like. I just don't know why you can't get your head around that.

besides, how do you know its bad? You come up with a hypothesis

XGAUGE
10-22-2007, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mefninja:
jerk who bashes a game for w/e reason because they can.

Noting something odd or that might not be good gameplay is not a "jerk bashing the game".


being one of the few who has played the game.. the AI is good.. people who dont understand why the dont all attack at once dont understand a few simple things about sharp objects in a crowd of people.

This is beaten to death, finally I will rest my case with this, find me proof that people in medieval or any sword fighting era, fought only 1v1 because their swords are sharp. Please look up and analyze battles involving Alexander the Great, various Japanese feudal era skirmishes, and European engagements, and finally yes the Crusades. If you see or read about a lot of people going to battle side by side, do not be alarmed. I did not change history to make AC less realistic ok?

What I would like you to do into some detail (or whoever has played the game) is "how is the AI" good. Which AI are you talking about Guards/Crowd? That moment in the Montferrat video with Altair taking out all the guards on the rooftop is that not as easy as it looks? Are there difficulty levels? Does the crowd really play a vital role?


AI sucks after people who played it said its good..

Guy who was raving about the game since 2006: Hey guys the game is going to be good!!
Skeptic: Those videos show dumb AI, what gives?!
Guy who was raving about the game since 2006: you are such a jerk Ubisoft poured their heart and soul into this of course it will be good!!! You can't attack 3 on 1 in real life anyway duderz.
Skeptic: wha?
Guy who played it: AI is good.
Skeptic: Thanks for the detailed explanation, I know look forward to having your opinion be MY opinion?!?!


they are just to ignorant to admit they where wrong and shouldn't have even complained about something they didn't know to begin with.

This isn't ego, I will gladly buy it if its what I am looking for and I'll be all 'OMG zomg loool lool remember when I fought 20 guys 1 on 1 and I pressed YBBY to moon the guards and farted?! lool!" right along with you.

Sorry if sometimes people who only got to play the game FOR ONLY THREE HOURS say "its good" and I don't believe them blindly and still have more questions. One thing that I find very positive regarding these play tests is that there does seem to be a pile of side missions that can be completed in various ways. That is very promising, as far as AI and combat I still have my doubts though I hope there are more videos soon.

Remember when Ubisoft went on and on about how Splinter Cell DA would have this intricate dynamic story-telling mode. This "morale" issue was going to be play a "big" part in the story telling and it ended up being this insignificant piece of the game? This happens a lot with upcoming games and the big time fans are not willing to admit that something is a flaw until months after the hype dies down.

The more information available the more people will want (or make up their minds not to want) this game. "it's good ok someone played it!" is not a compelling counter-arguement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, you sure go all out to point out every last little thing that is not 100% realistic. In a game where its possible to die in one hit, how much would you really be willing to fight of more than two people slashing you at the same time. If you know a little of history, you would well know that often major battles settled into 1 on 1 combat. If say the commanders of two opposing armies in a bloody battle met, and began fighting often the men from both sides would put all else aside and crowd around and watch....in the end it all comes down to this, if you don't like it...deal with it and move on, I don't feel much like overstaying my first post lol so good day.

chickmgnt222
10-22-2007, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
No I'm not saying that, but with the AI those games had, the stealth element, or better combat those games would be better than AC if it's built up as this epic game and all it has is "pretty graphics".

I still think those games' AI was non-existent but thanks for answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I never claimed things are one way, please prove this if you think it to be true. I only commented on the videos, I mentioned SPECIFICALLY, that this is how it "appeared" by watching the gameplay videos, I also asked/wondered if there were harder difficulty levels that would be more challenging. I mentioned many times that gameplay details are sketchy and hard to substantiate at this moment, but if the game IS in fact good/challenging/compelling I would buy it. Why do you keep coming back to this? Seems kind of silly. Since I never claimed to be an authority or stated that "This game Is sucks doodz".

Ok.


What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke.

That's just one part. Basically, I am calling you out for making assumptions that aren't really based on anything. The videos lack some stuff they talk about... so that means they aren't included? No. In any case, the whole 'if' thing is based on that first post you made. You were definitive in that post. In others, you slackened that. I was wondering why.

And why do I keep coming back to it? Well, you keep asking about it.



This analogy doesn't follow what I feel about Assassin's Creed at all. To match it more closely...

Of course it doesn't. It wasn't meant to. That wasn't the point of it.





Ok what you are talking about is not what is shown though. Stealth is not seen, as Altair just kills guard in sight of others, assassinates an official and enters Street Fighter mode instead of really having a need to escape? I didn't see examples of strategy vs brawling, and that's why I have questions (as I too like you, thought the game would favor stealth/strategy).

Um, yes, stealth is seen in the videos. I do believe I used the term social stealth which is what this game is all about. It isn't the customary stealth of slinking along the shadows. This has been explained in many interviews and previews. In any case, the assassins were supposed to kill their targets in plain site. That was the point.

It is clear you are just getting defensive and not really understanding what I am saying (and chances are I've blocked out any meaning of your words too.)

fGuppy88
10-22-2007, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:



There are people in this thread that think a circle of enemies in taking turns attacking you 1v1 is a "good" idea.

1vs 1 is not whats happening. What we see in the video is horrible tactics. You still will get attacked from behind. You also lose fatigue so fighting the AI may be harder this way as you constantly have to block attacks.



Originally posted by Dvlos56:

Yet a comment of "I played the game its good" does nothing for those who perhaps want a level of challenge not found in Street Fighter: Allah Edition. To those people "good" might not be what they're looking for period.



Goods not what your looking for? Then your pretty hard to please we might as well throw you out of the general AC base.


Originally posted by Dvlos56:


To those saying "Oh man a game with 3 people attacking you would be no fun, losing is no fun" I don't understand this reasoning. There are plenty of games that have you fighting more than 1 person at once.

Like what? Half-life thats a FPS you need to throw it out of the equation. Or grand theft auto. Yeha but you had 100000 health plus 100000 armor. Pretty easy when it takes 1000000 bullets to kill you. The only game you are able to compare it to is sandbox melee games. Now name a sandbox melee game that has multiple people attacking you at once. Note that fable only has one person attacking you at once.



Originally posted by Dvlos56:
You also bypass COMPLETELY the arguement that if you are careless, noisy, and basically a bumbling clumsy player with no style or finess then you WILL face more than 1 guard AND you SHOULD lose.

Why? Because that's what makes logical sense, in both video games and real life. If someone where tasked to assassinate some high ranking official in some government installation.. and that someone walked in, shot people in the face, threw grenades everywhere and shouted at the top of his lungs "Hey I -AM- The Walrus!!" he'll be so dead before he gets near whoever he's supposed to take out. However if that person was stealthy and sneaky he MIGHT get away with it, and MAY have a chance at escape. I seriously doubt that said hypothetical modern day assassin would enter a imaginary boxing ring with 10 guys who are more than eager to wait their turn on him/her.

The game is about having fun and its not about being serious. The main majority of the people who will buy this game are not hardcore gamers. They are people who just want to play something. So yes, thats why it is easy. If you don't like it, buy another game.

fGuppy88
10-22-2007, 04:24 PM
Before we take you on three vs 1 lets make a little compremise.

Just say your point with out being so strident. What you think and how it can affects the game.

I think you have a point; your just not convaying it right.

Royal.Mist
10-23-2007, 08:37 AM
Oblivion is a sandbox game where you can get hit by as many enemies that can crowd around and they even, on rare occasions, cause friendly damage.

Dvlos56
10-23-2007, 09:17 AM
What's so special about this? Nothing, one of the big selling features is apparently, a total joke.

Yes that is what I said, out of context, but I think I was talking about the Crowd AI. Which was supposed to be more realistic than any other game, allowing for a sort of social stealth, as you say. Or perhaps a gameplay mechanic of some kind aside from "speed bumps" or tossing people in front of guards to be THEIR speed bumps.

The funny thing about this quote is that I said "apparently" meaning 'from what it appears' not what you state:


That's just one part. Basically, I am calling you out for making assumptions that aren't really based on anything.

These assumptions are based on the released gameplay videos. It is a fact, that the gameplay videos in question (The Cathedral Escape and the Montferrat walkthrough) show 1v1 take-turns combat, (also backed up by the people who've played the game saying they 'mostly' take turns). And the crowd doesn't really do anything in favor or against you as you move through them, both during the escape and before. Finally Altair is seen killing guards in plain view of another guard.. TWICE.. and there is no reaction from the enemy AI.

"Apparently" is used in my sentence to denote that this is what is seen in these videos, I never said "This is definitely not in the game" or "I have 100% evidence the WHOLE game IS this way".

As for FGuppy88, I don't really care about 3 v 1 you guys can out post me all day long, in the end if the game releases with big flaws and you pay for it and do not enjoy the game you lose. The reverse is also true, if it is a great game and you (and myself) purchase AC and enjoy it, we all win. "Good" IS in fact good enough for me, but when trying to determine "how good" you need details.

Some internet fanboy shows up and says "Game is good" and how am I supposed to know all the things I was wondering about have been answered? Do you get me now? "Game is good" is way, way to broad a statement. "The game is good because the gameplay is fluid, the crowd really does play a factor in stealth, and keeping the guards calm. Alerted guards make it real hard to carry out an assassination. They attack you 1 on 1 but you have a very limited time to escape, you cannot fight 20 guards and win buy some time to get out of there." <---- That's a more detailed analysis than "It's good".

To summarize from the first few pages Fguppy, I am looking for:

- Ubisoft to come through with showing their advance AI (Social stealth will be a part of Splinter Cell Conviction, I'm eagerly hoping this idea is a good one). That the crowd isn't bone dead stupid and has the user making decisions along the way like "Should I help/hinder this guy? Will it make my game harder or easier later on?"

- Assassination game that doesn't feel like Street Fighter. If you want to play that way fine, it should be harder for you but doable, but the option to play stealthy or using the environment to your advantage.

- 1v1 combat just plain bothers me, I like the idea of stealth, carry out mission, and get the hell out of there before they kill you idea.. but in the gameplay videos it seemed there was no reason to leave. Almost as if Altair could sit there killing 298,085 guards without breaking a sweat as none of them seemed to pose any kind of real challenge.

Those are the observations I did not like or understand from the gameplay videos.

ikbengeband
10-23-2007, 09:39 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
yeah but i bet that people are now gonna say: do you only want to flee

Dvlos56
10-23-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by ikbengeband:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
yeah but i bet that people are now gonna say: do you only want to flee

How are you only fleeing, when you are taking out guards, and jumping 1-2 stories to land a knife on some dude's head? Not to mention the fact you did this by following him around on rooftops, and helping commonfolk to get information on your target? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

fGuppy88
10-23-2007, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:


Some internet fanboy shows up and says "Game is good" and how am I supposed to know all the things I was wondering about have been answered?

Well a good game is all in the eye of the beholder. You may not like the same games I play but does it mean they are bad. no. So taking that into account, you have to realize you are on the official forum for Assassins creed and the main majority of the guys on here are hardcore fans or "fanboys"

As for the guys who played the demos. I'm sure they thought it was fun but they are fans. They wanted to play this game, its what they were looking for. Its the game they wanted to play.


Originally posted by Dvlos56:



To summarize from the first few pages Fguppy, I am looking for:

- Ubisoft to come through with showing their advance AI (Social stealth will be a part of Splinter Cell Conviction, I'm eagerly hoping this idea is a good one). That the crowd isn't bone dead stupid and has the user making decisions along the way like "Should I help/hinder this guy? Will it make my game harder or easier later on?"

We have seen evidence of the crowd AI being smart in the videos but other wise in hope they aren't bone dead stupid either.



Originally posted by Dvlos56:

- Assassination game that doesn't feel like Street Fighter. If you want to play that way fine, it should be harder for you but doable, but the option to play stealthy or using the environment to your advantage.

Hmm, what the devs wanted was freedom. having the choice to complete the missions anyway you wanted But i get the impression its still gonna be hard to just brawl everyone.


Originally posted by Dvlos56:


- 1v1 combat just plain bothers me, I like the idea of stealth, carry out mission, and get the hell out of there before they kill you idea.. but in the gameplay videos it seemed there was no reason to leave. Almost as if Altair could sit there killing 298,085 guards without breaking a sweat as none of them seemed to pose any kind of real challenge.

The guards did take him one on one but Altair wasn't having a easy time. His Stamina was going down quickly so in a sense its still 2o vs 1. They just do it one at a time.

The philosophy here is to make things fair BUT its a philosophy. I'm not saying its true or false. Thats what they are doing.

Personally I would like to see some kind of AI difficulty setting where they throw more tactics on you but I'm out of luck.

chickmgnt222
10-23-2007, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
The funny thing about this quote is that I said "apparently" meaning 'from what it appears' not what you state...

ap·par·ent·ly, adverb

"”Synonyms 1. discernible. 2. open, conspicuous, manifest, unmistakable. Apparent, evident, obvious, patent all refer to something easily perceived.

Yes. 'From what it appears'. You are implying a definitive condition.


These assumptions are based on the released gameplay videos. It is a fact, that the gameplay videos in question (The Cathedral Escape and the Montferrat walkthrough) show 1v1 take-turns combat, (also backed up by the people who've played the game saying they 'mostly' take turns). And the crowd doesn't really do anything in favor or against you as you move through them, both during the escape and before. Finally Altair is seen killing guards in plain view of another guard.. TWICE.. and there is no reaction from the enemy AI.

Yes, these videos show these things or 'lack to show' these things. This doesn't mean they don't/do exist in the game.


"Apparently" is used in my sentence to denote that this is what is seen in these videos, I never said "This is definitely not in the game" or "I have 100% evidence the WHOLE game IS this way".

See above.




...Some internet fanboy shows up and says "Game is good" and ...

Why must people always bring up fanboys?

When will you realize I am having this discussion with you about your use of phrasing of your opinions and not your views on how you think the game will be?

Dvlos56
10-23-2007, 02:27 PM
Fguppy:

We have seen evidence of the crowd AI being smart in the videos but other wise in hope they aren't bone dead stupid either.

No we haven't.


Hmm, what the devs wanted was freedom. having the choice to complete the missions anyway you wanted But i get the impression its still gonna be hard to just brawl everyone.

This is what is not clear from the video. Altair is a man-tank, and that's not exactly giving users a reason to not brawl if you ask me. However this could have been fixed/changed by now or higher difficulties offer more challenge.


The guards did take him one on one but Altair wasn't having a easy time. His Stamina was going down quickly so in a sense its still 2o vs 1. They just do it one at a time.

Did the most recent vid show this? I didn't see a stamina bar, just Altair standing with all the guys in the Monteferrat video fighting them one at time, then he runs around the little fortress pushing people down. It was nice to see the guards chase him onto rooftops but it was really easy for Altair tojust push them off? So yeah from what I saw there I had to wonder.

Chicky:

1. readily seen; exposed to sight; open to view; visible: The crack in the wall was readily apparent.
2. capable of being easily perceived or understood; plain or clear; obvious: The solution to the problem was apparent to all.
3. according to appearances, initial evidence, incomplete results, etc.; ostensible rather than actual: He was the apparent winner of the election.

Why go to synonyms when the definition of the word is needed? Clearly by the context you should have been able to discern, but APPARENTLY you have a different agenda? Therefore:


Yes, these videos show these things or 'lack to show' these things. This doesn't mean they don't/do exist in the game.

That is exactly my point, I do not state they do/don't exist, all I said was if AC doesn't have X feature or Y Ability it's going to be a weak game with nice graphics. On the flip side I'm saying if X feature, Y ability ARE in the game it will not be weak. Why am I flip flopping? Because I'm not sure what the final product is going to be like, but I am interested in AC which is why I'm posting my concerns.

chickmgnt222
10-23-2007, 02:52 PM
*sigh* this conversation is wasted on you.

mefninja
10-23-2007, 03:24 PM
Xgauge your rested case is the dumbest **** I've read all day..

First off when in any second of what I said or in this game when your surrounded does it become a 1v1 fight NEVER!!!.. Thats just ignorance right there..

Your examples are Wars/battles not a group of people vs 1 target.. how is that even a proper example??? Seriously I hope when you read this your dont be an idiot and you just take back what you said. The fact is 10guys with swords will not swing at once at 1 person.. they will take turns.. maybe 2 at a time.. but some will hesitate like they do in the game.. they dont all attack at once.. some attack when they know the can.. from behind when your not looking.. soemtimes you will get swung at 3times (if they have the tatical position to do so with a greater chance of sucess).. but only when the time is right.. never would a group of knights jus swing randomly at a target and hope to hit it.. that is dumb AI!!!(Like in oblivion when they jus swing off set paterns and kill each other.)
If you call the AI.. being tatical about how it attacks you dumb AI. then I duno what to say to you.. You guys make it seem like they NEVER attack at the same time EVER!! They do.. but they do it when its not a stupid thing to do.. thus smart AI.. but really play the game for yourself! I have and 3hours is enough to see exactly how the AI is.. crowd and enemy

Another thing about the AI is that if you stand there waiting for them too attack, sometimes they will attack less cause they just saw 3 of there commrads get owned cause they attempted to hit you. They will taunt you to strike at them..(some will run) so they can trick you to get out of your gaurd, they learn of how you fight.. In the game you cant jus stand there and wait, cause they will sometimes wait too..(or grab you) If you swing at the right times you will hit them.. if you swing at the wrong time they will block and the guy behind you will hit you or, they will counter you. If you hurt them they will walk to the back of the group(depend on there skill level they all fight different) and grab there wound every once and a while.. *Makes them a target to kill if you can reach them* Others will get more aggressive.. these are things you cant see in a video. So before you be a critic play the damn game.

fGuppy88
10-23-2007, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
Fguppy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We have seen evidence of the crowd AI being smart in the videos but other wise in hope they aren't bone dead stupid either.

No we haven't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes we have.

Look at the videos at gametrailers.com There are trouble makers beggars that alert you, you can blend in with them and they run into you.

I call that evidence.



Originally posted by Dvlos56:

This is what is not clear from the video. Altair is a man-tank, and that's not exactly giving users a reason to not brawl if you ask me.

Whats hard about comprehending this sentence? The Devs wanted you to have the freedom in brawling everyone, use social stealth or climb.




The guards did take him one on one but Altair wasn't having a easy time. His Stamina was going down quickly so in a sense its still 2o vs 1. They just do it one at a time.


Originally posted by Dvlos56:

Did the most recent vid show this? I didn't see a stamina bar, just Altair standing with all the guys in the Monteferrat video fighting them one at time, then he runs around the little fortress pushing people down. It was nice to see the guards chase him onto rooftops but it was really easy for Altair tojust push them off? So yeah from what I saw there I had to wonder.

Its almost a fact now that a stamina bar will be in the game. In demos they put god modes on and make things easy to show things off without worrying about dieing. I don't know if they did that but it could possibly be the case.

Cons that i saw?

when he pushing people out of his way sometimes he misses and pushed into thing air. Thats a con but still They may of polished this off from last time i saw this.

KlNDRED
10-23-2007, 04:26 PM
I laugh when I see people getting all emotional about something like AI at this point. lol
Nobody, except the select few who played it, can talk about AI. AI is something you need to experience when YOU play. A video of a beta format of the game is hardly what i'd use as my base.
Talk to the people who have played it to get a better view of the AI and stop bringing in real world examples. IT'S A GAME.

Dvlos56
10-24-2007, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by fGuppy88:
Yes we have.

Look at the videos at gametrailers.com There are trouble makers beggars that alert you, you can blend in with them and they run into you.


I was under the impression than the Montferrat and Cathedral Escape were the newest videos, but if you have newer videos please link me, I don't feel like digging around on Gametrailers.

Also if the trailer is old, it may be moot to view it as things change as the game develops.

fGuppy88
10-24-2007, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Dvlos56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fGuppy88:
Yes we have.

Look at the videos at gametrailers.com There are trouble makers beggars that alert you, you can blend in with them and they run into you.


I was under the impression than the Montferrat and Cathedral Escape were the newest videos, but if you have newer videos please link me, I don't feel like digging around on Gametrailers.

Also if the trailer is old, it may be moot to view it as things change as the game develops. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its almost a fact that troublemakers and beggars are in the game. Everyone here can tell you that.

XGAUGE
10-24-2007, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by mefninja:
Xgauge your rested case is the dumbest **** I've read all day..

First off when in any second of what I said or in this game when your surrounded does it become a 1v1 fight NEVER!!!.. Thats just ignorance right there..

Your examples are Wars/battles not a group of people vs 1 target.. how is that even a proper example??? Seriously I hope when you read this your dont be an idiot and you just take back what you said. The fact is 10guys with swords will not swing at once at 1 person.. they will take turns.. maybe 2 at a time.. but some will hesitate like they do in the game.. they dont all attack at once.. some attack when they know the can.. from behind when your not looking.. soemtimes you will get swung at 3times (if they have the tatical position to do so with a greater chance of sucess).. but only when the time is right.. never would a group of knights jus swing randomly at a target and hope to hit it.. that is dumb AI!!!(Like in oblivion when they jus swing off set paterns and kill each other.)
If you call the AI.. being tatical about how it attacks you dumb AI. then I duno what to say to you.. You guys make it seem like they NEVER attack at the same time EVER!! They do.. but they do it when its not a stupid thing to do.. thus smart AI.. but really play the game for yourself! I have and 3hours is enough to see exactly how the AI is.. crowd and enemy

Another thing about the AI is that if you stand there waiting for them too attack, sometimes they will attack less cause they just saw 3 of there commrads get owned cause they attempted to hit you. They will taunt you to strike at them..(some will run) so they can trick you to get out of your gaurd, they learn of how you fight.. In the game you cant jus stand there and wait, cause they will sometimes wait too..(or grab you) If you swing at the right times you will hit them.. if you swing at the wrong time they will block and the guy behind you will hit you or, they will counter you. If you hurt them they will walk to the back of the group(depend on there skill level they all fight different) and grab there wound every once and a while.. *Makes them a target to kill if you can reach them* Others will get more aggressive.. these are things you cant see in a video. So before you be a critic play the damn game.

Haha, I laugh at you. Such harsh words, are we 12, I was merely making a point of people calling the combat AI stupid, when its nothing but. I grew up in a military family, if that was an attempt to insult me, you'll have to try much harder. You're right in one aspect, I don't know everything about this game, I do know history, and how battles work my friend, my families been doing it for over a thousand years. If you think you know more than me about man to man combat throughout the ages maybe youre wrong, maybe youre right, I was merely stating my opinion on the matter, and you had taken it to the next level, a failed insult to my knowledge of combat. Good try though.

fGuppy88
10-24-2007, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by XGAUGE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mefninja:
Xgauge your rested case is the dumbest **** I've read all day..

First off when in any second of what I said or in this game when your surrounded does it become a 1v1 fight NEVER!!!.. Thats just ignorance right there..

Your examples are Wars/battles not a group of people vs 1 target.. how is that even a proper example??? Seriously I hope when you read this your dont be an idiot and you just take back what you said. The fact is 10guys with swords will not swing at once at 1 person.. they will take turns.. maybe 2 at a time.. but some will hesitate like they do in the game.. they dont all attack at once.. some attack when they know the can.. from behind when your not looking.. soemtimes you will get swung at 3times (if they have the tatical position to do so with a greater chance of sucess).. but only when the time is right.. never would a group of knights jus swing randomly at a target and hope to hit it.. that is dumb AI!!!(Like in oblivion when they jus swing off set paterns and kill each other.)
If you call the AI.. being tatical about how it attacks you dumb AI. then I duno what to say to you.. You guys make it seem like they NEVER attack at the same time EVER!! They do.. but they do it when its not a stupid thing to do.. thus smart AI.. but really play the game for yourself! I have and 3hours is enough to see exactly how the AI is.. crowd and enemy

Another thing about the AI is that if you stand there waiting for them too attack, sometimes they will attack less cause they just saw 3 of there commrads get owned cause they attempted to hit you. They will taunt you to strike at them..(some will run) so they can trick you to get out of your gaurd, they learn of how you fight.. In the game you cant jus stand there and wait, cause they will sometimes wait too..(or grab you) If you swing at the right times you will hit them.. if you swing at the wrong time they will block and the guy behind you will hit you or, they will counter you. If you hurt them they will walk to the back of the group(depend on there skill level they all fight different) and grab there wound every once and a while.. *Makes them a target to kill if you can reach them* Others will get more aggressive.. these are things you cant see in a video. So before you be a critic play the damn game.

Haha, I laugh at you. Such harsh words, are we 12, I was merely making a point of people calling the combat AI stupid, when its nothing but. I grew up in a military family, if that was an attempt to insult me, you'll have to try much harder. You're right in one aspect, I don't know everything about this game, I do know history, and how battles work my friend, my families been doing it for over a thousand years. If you think you know more than me about man to man combat throughout the ages maybe youre wrong, maybe youre right, I was merely stating my opinion on the matter, and you had taken it to the next level, a failed insult to my knowledge of combat. Good try though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow this is going int he wrong direction. Maybe you guys should use less insults when you are arguing because someone is bound to get mad and then Banned after doing something stupid

XGAUGE
10-24-2007, 01:04 PM
Ahh don't worry, I only argue fully in person, online there is no point, no way to tell of a mans courage, he made his point I made mine, just put that behind now.

mefninja
10-24-2007, 04:33 PM
What does your military background and your knowledge of historic battles have to do with the AI combat in AC???? What do great battles with thousand of men fighting each other have to do with a few guards vs altair?? Nothing.. and thats what you used as an example of why the AI in AC is stupid.. No that wasn't a attempt to insult you or your "knowledge of combat." but the facts you brought up about Combat.. dont even relate to what is going on in the game. your talking about huge wars hundreds of men fighting each other to prove your point.. When this game is a few knights/gaurds again 1 man.. Yea fighting 20 guys isnt realistic.. but its a game!!!

That is all.

fGuppy88
10-24-2007, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by XGAUGE:
Ahh don't worry, I only argue fully in person, online there is no point, no way to tell of a mans courage, he made his point I made mine, just put that behind now.

You may not be the concern here. I hope we will deal with it appropriately.

dirtybird21
10-24-2007, 09:07 PM
From what i've seen the AI in this game is WAY beyond what most games are at right now, Comparing AC too a real battle is pretty unfair, This is a video game, Not everything can be perfect. Compare the AI too other video games, In almost no other game are people chasing you as persistant, And in the fighting.. What game is there where enemies plan specific times to attack you? Never.. The AI will never be as smart as a human being.

AltairBear
10-25-2007, 03:45 AM
I onno I think it looks pretty sweet.

fGuppy88
10-25-2007, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by AltairBear:
I onno I think it looks pretty sweet.

i onno too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

KlNDRED
10-25-2007, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by dirtybird21:
From what i've seen the AI in this game is WAY beyond what most games are at right now, Comparing AC too a real battle is pretty unfair, This is a video game, Not everything can be perfect. Compare the AI too other video games, In almost no other game are people chasing you as persistant, And in the fighting.. What game is there where enemies plan specific times to attack you? Never.. The AI will never be as smart as a human being.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Royal.Mist
10-25-2007, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by KlNDRED:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
From what i've seen the AI in this game is WAY beyond what most games are at right now, Comparing AC too a real battle is pretty unfair, This is a video game, Not everything can be perfect. Compare the AI too other video games, In almost no other game are people chasing you as persistant, And in the fighting.. What game is there where enemies plan specific times to attack you? Never.. The AI will never be as smart as a human being.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You agree after you've gotten 'emotional' about people getting 'emotional' about AI. Don't be hypocritical. Even some of the people who have played have reported strange AI occurances like AI stopping mid chase for no reason.

fGuppy88
10-25-2007, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:

You agree after you've gotten 'emotional' about people getting 'emotional' about AI. Don't be hypocritical. Even some of the people who have played have reported strange AI occurances like AI stopping mid chase for no reason.

please stop posting. I have never heard of AI that stops arbitrarily in a chase.

KlNDRED
10-25-2007, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KlNDRED:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
From what i've seen the AI in this game is WAY beyond what most games are at right now, Comparing AC too a real battle is pretty unfair, This is a video game, Not everything can be perfect. Compare the AI too other video games, In almost no other game are people chasing you as persistant, And in the fighting.. What game is there where enemies plan specific times to attack you? Never.. The AI will never be as smart as a human being.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You agree after you've gotten 'emotional' about people getting 'emotional' about AI. Don't be hypocritical. Even some of the people who have played have reported strange AI occurances like AI stopping mid chase for no reason. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless you count humor as an emotion then yes it is funny. But unlike many people in this thread, I agreed with this post because it was small and directly to the point. unlike some who wrote essays lol

AirRon_2K7
10-25-2007, 11:27 AM
Royal speaks the truth, but he, like a lot of people, focus solely on the negatives that people say. Which is unfortunate. Nevermind, eh?

I don't see how Mr military's family's occupation has ANYTHING to do with one on one, one on two or indeed one on ten combat. Yes, you know war, yes, you know history. Would you like a cookie? AC focuses on small combat sections, and - FYI - it isn't even a War game, so how does your knowledge benefit this argument at all?