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Waldo.Pepper
12-05-2009, 10:04 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/gekko.jpg

The page pertains to the radar installed in the Japanese night fighter Gekko. I believe that it is suggesting that the display was presented radially, on a single Cathode Ray Tube. Just like was done with the British AI Mark 7 and 8 sets.

A target would initially appear as an arc. But then this arc would transition into a complete circle as the target was maneuvered directly ahead and at the same altitude.

Thanks guys.

mhuxt
12-06-2009, 03:49 AM
Hmmm, will see what I can do Waldo.

Is that the only issue which interests you on the page?

mhuxt
12-06-2009, 04:07 AM
Waldo,

The illustration at the top, with the three circles, reads:

Depiction of the PPI Display of the Experimental Tama-3 Electronic Search Device


1 - The centre is the aircraft's position. The semi-circle above indicates the target.

2 - Once the pilot has pointed the aircraft's nose at the target, the target's echo becomes a circle.

3 - As the target is approached, the circular target echo becomes smaller.


Were you able to download the BC loss stats? If not, pm me your email addy - I remembered I'd transcribed them myself, once upon a time. Found the file again so...

Waldo.Pepper
12-06-2009, 11:19 AM
Thanks mhuxt, pretty much exactly as I had surmised. I think somewhere on the page the mention of 600m is made. That could either be maximum range or minimum range. I would bet it is min. range. Either way, that is incredibly poor performance.

I will send you a PM. No need to further clutter up the board. I am sure that not many here are terribly interested in such radar minutiae.

JtD
12-06-2009, 11:51 AM
I am.

Heliopause
12-06-2009, 01:16 PM
+1

mhuxt
12-06-2009, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Thanks mhuxt, pretty much exactly as I had surmised. I think somewhere on the page the mention of 600m is made. That could either be maximum range or minimum range. I would bet it is min. range. Either way, that is incredibly poor performance.

I will send you a PM. No need to further clutter up the board. I am sure that not many here are terribly interested in such radar minutiae.

Hi Waldo,

Yes, 600m is minimum range. Can't see anything in the text about it having been used operationally though. Lots of "would have been," though just skimmed it.

Waldo.Pepper
12-06-2009, 04:09 PM
Here is what I think I know about the Tama-3. Also known as Type 19, Exp. Mk 2 Mod 11

Aircraft installed AI radar approved for production in July 1945. Reached prototype stage where it was tested in air, ten examples were made. Wavelength of 200 cm. Peak output power 3 kW. Range aircraft 3 km. Weight 70 kg. Antenna Yagi type common to transmission and reception. The page I posted if from Model Art. There are three more pages dealing with the installation of this type of radar in the Gekko. Some sources claim that there was also a searchlight installed in the nose. Francillon in his book makes mention of this light. The book on the Gekko printed by the Smithsonian contradicts this.

It was not used in combat. However, the FD-1 saw very limited uses (in Combat) also installed in the Gekko.

A very public thank you to Mhuxt.

Daiichidoku
12-06-2009, 04:18 PM
+2 to the not-bored-by-radar-minutia


mhuxt sir, if its no bother, and readable to you, would you mind translating the characters on my sig please? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Waldo.Pepper
12-06-2009, 04:42 PM
To help any interested parties understand how this radial time base display works here is a small animation and some words of explanation.

The closer the return is to the center of the scope is, the shorter the range is, up until the target aircraft gets into the minimum range. (which is determined by the transmission pulse). This type of display minimum range appears as a center circle.

The ground return (reflection back from the ground) on this display is shown on the bottom of the screen. And would disappear if the interception takes place at an altitude greater than the range of the radar.

When the radar return forms into a complete circle, the target aircraft is directly in front of the radar equipped night fighter.

When the return is merely an arc, the position of the arc indicates what clock position the target aircraft is located within. (i.e. upper right lower left etc.)

When the radar return is at minimum range, and a complete circle, then the target aircraft is directly in front and an interception is imminent. The pilot then would have to acquire the target visually, make an ID, then shoot it down.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Radar/MK8Animation.gif

Hope that was clear. This display scheme was appreciated during the war for a number of reasons. Only a single scope was needed, cheaper/lighter that way. It was easier to teach a operator as it was somewhat intuitive. It functioned as a visual artificial horizon as well.

This diagram is MORE accurate for the Tama-3 that for the British AI Mk 7 and 8 which it was originally produced to explain. As the British set has a moving paraboloid which introduces all sorts of movement on the screen. There is a scanning movement that is not reproduced in this display example.

The animation shows the ground return incorrectly. It should not appear as a curve, but should be straight line across the bottom of the screen.

VF-17_Jolly
12-06-2009, 05:31 PM
Thanks Waldo that's very instructive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

mhuxt
12-07-2009, 04:39 AM
Hi Waldo,

That's a great animation.

Check email, will have a squizz.

Daiichidoku, so far as I read it, the characters are something approximating "The naval and air power of the United States of America: without historical parallel."

Edit - On reading the other pages, I think the reading may be Kyoku (Gyoku?) - 3. Means "Jewel".

Another Edit - Daiichidoku, could be ^overwhelming power" of US Naval and Air Forces, "Attouteki" in Japanese, though old characters.

JtD
12-07-2009, 09:28 AM
A big thx from me, too. My Japanese managed "Kanji no Kanji". Dang these Kanji characters...

Also thanks for the neat animation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
12-07-2009, 09:34 AM
ahh phooey, Waldow knows more about these ww 2 radar sets then me.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm still the Police Traffic radar go to guy around here thou. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Daiichidoku
12-07-2009, 11:20 AM
ty mhuxt

the art certainly looks japanese, but i have always figured it was US in origin, a propaganda leafet dropped on Japan

what you said tells me this is indeed the most likely case

ty again sir! <S>

SeaFireLIV
12-07-2009, 11:31 AM
This is one of the reasons i love IL2. You will almost certainly learn something pertaining to reality here, unlike so many other games or even `sims`.

JtD
12-09-2009, 11:05 PM
Waldo, do you know this (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200B-0112-0146%20Report%20E-02.pdf)?

Waldo.Pepper
12-10-2009, 12:44 AM
Yep. There is a really good schematic of the Tama-3 as well as the FD-1 AI set, in there too! (Mucho thanks for trying by the way!) Info in Japanese radar is really sparse. (As is information on wartime Soviet AI radars. I really regret not having learned a Second language when I was younger.)

It is part of a much larger set (at least 20 volumes/articles) involving Japanese technology, fuel, etc. etc. Really good information in that set. Located here ...

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org...ports/USNTMJ_toc.htm (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ_toc.htm)

I am waiting on my public library to bring me this! (Can't wait actually. When it comes in, it should be like Xmas for me.)

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38087267

I can inter library loan most any book from any library in North America for 50 cents. So I keep the local staff busy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Moonlight Interceptor has a few good pages about Japanese radars in it as well.

JtD
12-10-2009, 10:36 AM
Yes, I've browsed through most of them, coming from the ships side. I recalled something about the radar and thought it might be good info to you.

It's one of the most interesting sites on the web, I wish there were more of those!

J_Anonymous
12-11-2009, 05:40 PM
If you guys had difficulties in comprehending this one-page article, it’s not your fault. I am a native Japanese speaker with Ph.D., and happen to have some working knowledge of radio-frequency technologies, too. But much of this article does not make too much sense even for me, because it’s written extremely poorly in Japanese. Some sentences don’t make sense as Japanese language.

Warning : I use Chinese characters below; if your browser is not properly set up, you may not see them and may encounter weird ascii instead.

This article is about a proto-type radar called ???. I am not sure how we should pronounce the first Chinese character (i.e. kanji) “Tama-3” or “Gyoku-3”, as this character could be pronounced either way.

Cathode ray tubes as well as light bulbs are sometimes called "tama" in Japanese (which means "spherical"). Perhaps the name "Tama-3" originates from that. On the other hand, the author of the article seems implying in his opening statement that "?" originates from "??" ("Gyokusai"), which means collective suicide; if he is right, we should pronounce it Gyoku-3.

This radar system was capable of showing the direction AND the distance of aircraft as well as the ocean surface on one screen. The principles of the operation of the ???radar system are described in detail in this article, and the animation of the original poster summarizes them beautifully. The article also says that this system was tested on September 21, 1944; a G4 bomber with a prototype of this radar system successfully detected a G3 bomber as a target in air between the maximum distance of 4000 m and the minimum distance of 600m.

The last paragraph (at the lower right corner) is the conclusion, and it’s an exhibition A of “how to write Japanese very poorly”; it consists of only one ultra-long sentence, and I can’t confidently decipher what he really means. It seems that he is trying to say three things in one ultra-long sentence:

“As mentioned earlier (in previous pages?), this is the “Ginga (??)” type-21 night-fighter with “Homare” engines (and ??? radar). Upon formal approval, it would have been named night-fighter “Kyoku-ko (??)” type-22. I am assuming that Ginga would have become “Kyoku-ko” type-11 upon installation of “Kasei” engines.”

Got it?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

“Kyoku-ko” means “Aurora.”

There is a Wiki page about “Kyoku-ko”, see

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/??_(???))

It specifically points out that Kyoku-ko is different from “Gekko” (contrary to what the original poster wrote above). Initially, this aircraft (i.e. a “Ginga” variant) was named “Haku-ko” (??, “White light”); but the name written in Kanji (Chinese character) was confused with “Gekko” (??, “Moon light”), hence they renamed “Haku-ko ??” as “Kyoku-ko ??.”

J_Anonymous
12-11-2009, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by mhuxt:
Another Edit - Daiichidoku, could be "overwhelming power" of US Naval and Air Forces.
mhuxt got it right. In modern Japanese, we would write it as

??? beikokuno
??? attouteki
??? ka-i ku-u gu-n

This leaflet was obviously for propaganda operations by the U.S.

ElfunkoI
12-11-2009, 06:44 PM
Attouteki was it. That script is hard to read, not to mention the first kanji is different than the modern version, but the katakana on the side was so small I didn't even try and read it. Surprised it's propoganda in favor of the US, never seen that before really.

Cool stuff.

Waldo.Pepper
12-11-2009, 10:43 PM
Thank you J_Anonymous, and ElfunkoI and mhuxt.

Here are the previous three pages. dealing with this installation which clearly do show it as a Yokosuka P1Y Ginga (Milky Way [aka Galaxy?]) derivative. "Frances" in allied code.

Complacency on my part - I only really looked at the page I initially posted and assumed (without looking carefully enough) that the entire book was about the Gekko. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Guess not!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/g1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/g2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/g3.jpg

FWIW the USN Technical Mission to Japan ID's the set at the Tama-3 on page 31 of the US Naval Technical Mission to Japan pdf that JtD linked to earlier.

mhuxt
12-12-2009, 02:14 AM
Thanks J_Anonymous!


Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mhuxt:
Another Edit - Daiichidoku, could be "overwhelming power" of US Naval and Air Forces.
mhuxt got it right. In modern Japanese, we would write it as

??? beikokuno
??? attouteki
??? ka-i ku-u gu-n

This leaflet was obviously for propaganda operations by the U.S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

J_Anonymous
12-12-2009, 06:40 AM
Once I read the initial 3 pages, the 4th page suddenly makes much more sense. I could not even understand the first sentence which appeared in the initial scan, but that was just because the sentence continues from page 3. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The author speculates the distinction between Hakko and Kyokuko night fighters, and their specifications.

As for the pronunciation of the ???radar --- in the middle column of the first page, and in the final sentence of the third page (lower right corner), he specifically states that the name should be pronounced "Gyoku-3" by attaching katakana alphabet over the Chinese character.