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edgflyer2
04-25-2007, 10:43 AM
So I am flying an offline campaign and have my 51 at 24,000 FT running at 80% Prop-pitch, 98% throttle, perfect trim, Rads closed and yet still cannot catch a BF109 G no matter what I try. Why does this happen and what can be done or is it fubar.

AKA_TAGERT
04-25-2007, 10:46 AM
Got a mirror?

MEGILE
04-25-2007, 10:46 AM
Sounds Fubar... the Mustang was 50MPH faster than the Luftwaffe.

edgflyer2
04-25-2007, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Got a mirror?

Typical, thanks for your usual insight. I think it is time to add you to the ignore list.

AKA_TAGERT
04-25-2007, 10:48 AM
No prob!

Divine-Wind
04-25-2007, 11:18 AM
You're flying against the AI, which = rather tough job catching up to a bot that flies perfectly trimmed and set up through every manuever.

AnaK774
04-25-2007, 11:22 AM
Hmm...

Is 109 still zooming?
Do you have stuff strapped to your plane?
What model of 51 and 109?
Fuel level of 51 and 109?
Is it really trimmed?

dont get my signature personally, its reminder for me as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

edgflyer2
04-25-2007, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by AnaK774:
Hmm...

Is 109 still zooming?
Do you have stuff strapped to your plane?
What model of 51 and 109?
Fuel level of 51 and 109?
Is it really trimmed?

dont get my signature personally, its reminder for me as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

109 G flying in a slight climb
Nothing strapped to P51-20
Would have to assume fuel level for 109 to be about 50% and 75% ON 51 (20 mins into mission)
Yes the plane is trimmed

faustnik
04-25-2007, 11:29 AM
Some Bf109G models have higher climb rates than the P-51D. Also, AI cheats.

DKoor
04-25-2007, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Some Bf109G models have higher climb rates than the P-51D. Also, AI cheats. Yes, tis true.
I manually checked all climb figures for most common (late war planes mainly) types... P-51D had the worse climbing capabilities of all tested aircraft. I did the test few patches ago V4.02 IIRC or so.... I guess nothing big has changed in the meantime I still have EXCELL table.... I even tested on various fuel loadouts. It was somewhat of a surprise to me that 51D has such inferior climb. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Heck even Bf-109E will outclimb a 51D from 3,500m to 6,000 according to the IL-2 compare!!! Tis a 100% fuel load, tho.
But... it's not by a small margin.
I haven't confirmed this fact in game manually, tho but I suspect it to be true - in game.

Not surprisingly this....
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2055/g6evs51dfr3.gif
...pic I just checked confirms that.

109 is simply superior climber to most allied planes under many circumstances.
And to add on top of that, Ai doesn't suffer from complex engine management "failures", such is overheat, wrong mixture setting or wrong prop pitch settings.
In climb you don't stand much chance vs Ai when aircraft are matched or if you have inferior climbing aircraft to Ai.

alert_1
04-25-2007, 01:14 PM
try Me109G against AI P51 and tell us how fast is P51 - AI cheats BIG time!

edgflyer2
04-25-2007, 01:18 PM
Interesting DKoor. Judging from the charts you provide, MAX TAS should have put me in the running to catch that 109. So if AI cheats, they cheat real bad which completely knocks the realism aspect of this sim right out of the water. I should had caught up to that 109 no problem givin the fact that I was flying level and he was on a slihgt climb. He would have lost air speed and I would retain mine until I got close enough to go after him. At which point I still would have had enough energy to attack. Instead he just kept getting farther and farther away. I will try this out again and turn off complex engine management and see the results are.

DKoor
04-25-2007, 01:25 PM
I'll provide you guys with a few tracks, I'm just searching my DvD with t0ns of recording vs Ai.
Will be back shortly.

edgflyer2
04-25-2007, 01:33 PM
And I will take the same 109 up against the 51 and see what happens there also. This can be real interesting.


Also lets throw this question out there. It is my understanding that the lower the prop pitch, the more air it grabs and throws behind you. Also the lower the prop pitch, the more power that is drained from the engine. So being that this thought process is correct, what is the optimal balance of prop pitch to RPM to gain the most speed? Any Idea. I ask because I have never been able to get the 51 up to the posted speeds as listed in performance reviews in this sim. And should it be this complicated to get it screaming like its real life counter part?

DKoor
04-25-2007, 02:50 PM
N1K vs P-51D (http://www.esnips.com/doc/8ea8656e-bee6-49a3-8a63-dee7c11432ed/DKoorN1K-vs-4xP51D-408)
P-51B vs FW-190A5 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/3b267b2b-b022-4fc6-bbdc-01eb2f9831ab/KunaP51B-vs-4xFW190A-405)
P-51D vs Bf-109G (http://www.esnips.com/doc/f23bed94-3219-4159-8301-19f522d5cec0/KunaP51D-vs-4xBf109G-405)

Here they are.... all versus 4 x ace Ai, and on "realistic" settings. No time accel/deceleration. Some of these tracks contain long exhausting fights that I had to play very cautiously.

This has nothing to do with real WW2 aerial combat tactics, it is a matter of adopting some rules when engaging V4.08 Ai. And some practice too.

DKoor
04-25-2007, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by edgflyer2:
Also lets throw this question out there. It is my understanding that the lower the prop pitch, the more air it grabs and throws behind you. Also the lower the prop pitch, the more power that is drained from the engine. So being that this thought process is correct, what is the optimal balance of prop pitch to RPM to gain the most speed? Any Idea. I ask because I have never been able to get the 51 up to the posted speeds as listed in performance reviews in this sim. And should it be this complicated to get it screaming like its real life counter part? You can achieve top speed with P-51D only on 100% prop.pitch and 110%+WEP throttle with closed radiator.
I specifically tested this.

bluedragon1950
04-25-2007, 07:14 PM
------------------
Also lets throw this question out there. It is my understanding that the lower the prop pitch, the more air it grabs and throws behind you. Also the lower the prop pitch, the more power that is drained from the engine. So being that this thought process is correct, what is the optimal balance of prop pitch to RPM to gain the most speed? Any Idea. I ask because I have never been able to get the 51 up to the posted speeds as listed in performance reviews in this sim. And should it be this complicated to get it screaming like its real life counter part?
----------------------------------

Below are the extracts I gathered from this forum, unfortunately I didn't save the pilot name who posted these tips, hope that he will not be upset when I repost his writting:

***
My engine strategy in the Mustang is as follows:

Rule #1: Never touch the Radiator.
Rule #2: Never touch the Radiator.
Rule #3: In climb, run the engine at 99%, hold airspeed at 170 mph indicated for best climb.
Rule #4: In combat, run the engine at 110%, hold airspeed above 250 mph whenever possible, speed is life, speed also keeps your engine cool, more speed -> more air through radiator -> cooler engine. As long as you keep your speed up, you won't overheat.
Rule #5: In a combat climb situation, run the engine at 110% and hold 170 mph IAS. When the engine begins to overheat, reduce power to 99% until overheat goes away, then wait five seconds and return to 110%.

Generally speaking, the P-51 can run at 110% indefinitely, as long as you keep your speed up and keep air moving through that radiator.

***
Propeller pitch. You need to use prop pitch. When trying to run, especially if you have a little speed already and some distance, drop your pitch to @95 at first... throttle to 100 rad on auto.... when your speed stops increasing then drop the pitch to 90...do not climb.. watch your altimeter.... stay level.... you will outrun most planes ..especially in 4.07.

***
I was flying all day, trying different settings. So I took p51D20, and tried to fly as fast as I could at sea level (10m).

throttle: 100%, Radiator: auto (no overheating), prop. pitch: 100%, max speed between 520-530.

Throttle: 100% Radiator: closed (no overheating), prop. Pitch: 75% (at the edge of green area-2700RPM), max speed 540

throttle: 110% Radiator: closed (overheating), prop. Pitch: 75% (at the edge of green area-2700RPM), max speed 560

throttle: 110% Radiator: closed (overheating), prop. pitch: 100%, max speed 580

BEST: fly with radiator closed (maybe 2) and 100% power (not 110!) and WEP enabled! Check what happens to your manifold pressure! It will increase, but u will still not get overheat, or at least very seldom!

***
First, make sure to notice what your manifold pressure does! In the P51 D-model for example you can see that your manifold with WEP enabled will decrease from sea level from 72 to 62 and when it reaches 62MAP (at around 3300m) disable it! No point to enable WEP if it wont give u extra power! and it wont till you reach 5500-5600m. Between these altitudes it will produce lots of heat but no extra power!

So stay below 3000m or above 5500 if you want to use WEP for extra power!

Lots of people complain about overheating problems. Believe me, there are NONE!!
Once you go level after a climb, leave rads fully open for say 30 secs and at the same time come back on prop pitch to 80% for level flight. Then close rads fully and never open them again and stay at 100% power and she WILL NOT overheat! You can even engage WEP and she wont overheat if prop pitch is low! Try to keep it around 2600-2700 RPM (green arc) and she will be fine and FAST as hell!!!
Now, fly with these settings and notice what tremendous speed advantage u get! In dives, come back on prop pitch and only in full vertical climb let the prop pitch come up to 100%.
If she overheats, come back on prop pitch and open rads to maybe 2-4 and then close it again!

TRIM!! I cannot say this enough, a well trimmed P51 is very fast and very stable!! When speed increase, the ball will go left and the ball is pointing towards the rudder that must be pressed. So ball left - more left rudder trim! Keep the ball centered!

Elevator trim, VERY VERY important for all AC in game! Make sure the she is trimmed for the speed you fly at, simple let go of the controls as see what she does on the vertical speed indicator! You can lose 20-50 km/h or more if she is untrimmed and constantly have to push the nose down/up with your stick!

Dogfight, well, don't dogfight unless you see the fuel age behind your left shoulder below, 50-60 USGAL. When it is, you can outturn most Fw190 and most 109s(but still with the 109s ,don't get too slow with them) and if you decide to go for TnB, trim the nose up to make tighter turns easier and set 100% prop pitch ( she will eventually overheat with these settings too)! Combat flaps will help very much in the P51! If it doesn't go the way u want it to, point the nose down, come back on prop pitch and give full power and you can leave all but the Dora 9 behind easily. Make sure to trim her to every increase in km/h of speed! And watch that speed drop VERY slowly because if she is well trimmed and rads closed she will NOT drop speed fast!! She will keep E 4-ever!
Personally I try NOT to dogfight unless my fuel behind me is below half the gauge indication.
NEVER take more than 50% fuel in the P51! Sometimes, take 25% with drop tanks and when u release them, u can fly for 30 mins and u will be very maneuverable!!
Believe me if you do all this, you will see how fast she is!! German AC don't have rudder trim and still most people don't even look at the ball so they will lose speed much faster than you when the try to follow you at high speed. (Exception is Dora 9 that can follow u)

Convergence- Ok this is very personal, I have been experimenting with this for along time offline and set up a lot of friendly targets and fired at them at the distance I thought came closets to the distances I fire at targets Online. I was surprised to see that most of the time, my targets are inside the 150m arc so I fly with a convergence setting of 120-140m and it does wonders for me now! Especially when sneaking up on someone's six from below. Fire when the 190 and 109s wingtips are just on the yellow circle or even outside them and most of your rounds will hit your target and cripple them!

The best hit % I have had was 57% with these settings, no need to say the target lost both wings and went on fire and that was 190D9.

Fw190s perform rather badly at 3000m where their first supercharger stage is pretty low on power and the second stage hasn't engaged yet so they will be rather low on power, but u still have plenty!

But most important of all these tips are, the TRIM and the CLOSE RADS fully and come back on prop pitch!

R_Target
04-25-2007, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
You can achieve top speed with P-51D only on 100% prop.pitch and 110%+WEP throttle with closed radiator.
I specifically tested this.

Ditto. P-51 has a constant speed propeller, and lowering "prop pitch" (RPM) will slow you down.

VW-IceFire
04-25-2007, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by edgflyer2:
And I will take the same 109 up against the 51 and see what happens there also. This can be real interesting.


Also lets throw this question out there. It is my understanding that the lower the prop pitch, the more air it grabs and throws behind you. Also the lower the prop pitch, the more power that is drained from the engine. So being that this thought process is correct, what is the optimal balance of prop pitch to RPM to gain the most speed? Any Idea. I ask because I have never been able to get the 51 up to the posted speeds as listed in performance reviews in this sim. And should it be this complicated to get it screaming like its real life counter part?
My understanding was lowering the pitch, in the case of the P-51 and most allied aircraft, basically means setting the system to reduce the RPM rather directly affecting the pitch as its a constant speed propeller which adjusts pitch as required. The game uses a catch all for several different systems that WWII warbirds used. So what you're doing is lowering the RPM's developed by the engine...which can be really useful if you want to go for efficiency as the plane I find will glide along very nicely, stays cool, doesn't eat a ton of fuel, and so forth. But in combat you want to be 100% pitch in a Mustang for maximum power/thrust/acceleration, etc. Its not quite like gearing in a car...I find it doesn't translate well.

lowfighter
04-25-2007, 09:26 PM
To things:
1. The AI when in combat goes to 110% trottle and WEP ALWAYS. No matter what AC type or skill
2. The P51 is pretty sluggish accelerating with 100% fuel or near, that's why everybody takes 50% or less online. (You're saying you estimate 80% fuelat the moment of engagement)


Edit: Just occured to me there's at least one AC which allows human to squeze more from it than the AI.
Let's take a FW190A8. Push the trottle to maximum and engage WEP. You'll read 2700 rpm, that's the emergency power setting I read in some 1944 test document. If you hit alutopilot you'll see that the AI is using THIS setting too.Now this is on auto prop pitch. Change it to 100% and see the rpm going up to 2900 or so. You feel easily the better acceleration. I've been testing me in a FW190A8 trying to catch an AI FW190A8 in level acceleration and it worked...

edgflyer2
04-26-2007, 07:30 AM
Well I guess it is time to just hang up the 51 and try some other. P47 anyone.

AKA_TAGERT
04-26-2007, 07:31 AM
Or get a mirror

Brain32
04-26-2007, 07:34 AM
P47 has a mirror - problem solved http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AKA_TAGERT
04-26-2007, 07:35 AM
two two two mints in one

Daiichidoku
04-26-2007, 08:07 AM
gum gum, flavor flavor

DKoor
04-26-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
Now this is on auto prop pitch. Change it to 100% and see the rpm going up to 2900 or so. You feel easily the better acceleration. I've been testing me in a FW190A8 trying to catch an AI FW190A8 in level acceleration and it worked... This is true, a few notches more on manual prop.pitch can usually be observed... but that sometimes comes with a heavy price, however.

About your remark on Ai, that's true too. I have not flew vs Ai with overheat turned off, but if my aircraft isn't affected with overheat I suspect that I wouldn't have a problem catching up with any Ai, no matter what the conditions are. Of course if planes are close - top speed wise.

This way (realistic settings) when Ai goes in climb I still can catch it, but with 1 or more minutes of overheat.... engine usually lasts long enough to catch the Ai.

That is why it is of utmost importance that player knows limitations of his crate thoroughly. How much time do you have in overheat before engine dies in climb?
That is the question on which we should be able to give quite precise answer.
Then things become much easier regarding Ai.

DKoor
04-26-2007, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by edgflyer2:
And I will take the same 109 up against the 51 and see what happens there also. This can be real interesting. It's interesting.... and a very tough setup too; if you choose to fight vs several Ai planes.
Toughest part of this is because 109 usually doesn't have much ammo; it's ok if you fight one or two foes but when there's four of them (like I just tested) things can become nasty.

I tested this 109 vs 51 setup with Bf-109G6/AS-U3 vs 4 ace P-51D20NA all on 75% fuel. I had to choose 75% because otherwise I wouldn't have enough fuel, 109 sucks up enormous amount of fuel in short time, especially with MW50 turned on.

Here is track; Bf-109G6/AS vs 4xP-51D (http://www.esnips.com/doc/90080dd8-b0c4-4b6f-9ad9-f1bfbd1bf384/DKoorBf109G-vs-4xP51D-408)

And I barely made it home with remaining fuel. Note that the fight lasted about 22 minutes!!!!
It's in fact that short that I think that 109 is somewhat p0rked with low fuel amount.... it'd be 30mins tops with full fuel load in combat enviroment before fuel tank gets completely dry. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Some track reviews.... I think that what needs to be highlighted is the 109 ability to actually outclimb the 51D by quite large margin.
This is also shown on track... of course I flew within the overheat limits if it isn't for that I'd catch the 51 much faster.
In the very beginning of the track I climbed from 1000m up to around 2k, thus creating favorable position for either "hammerhead" or "eagle" attack, and this fully payed off.
By executing this maneuver, I basically put 3 stangs out of action.... the remaining 4th escaped tho, and I had to chase it for about 15mins.
In the end I was very lucky to be able to RTB.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bluedragon1950
04-26-2007, 02:02 PM
DKoor,

I watched the KunaP51B-vs-4xFW190 track: you're so good with the P51. Question: what is your Gun Convergence Setting?

TY

carguy_
04-27-2007, 03:45 AM
Maybe you should change all AI to sub veteran level because above levels are BS.You can`t fly vs same year AI on equal terms.Since release of 1946 AI`s specialty is zooming 800m straight up at very low speeds,even 200km/h.

Online in sustained climb under 5500m catching a 109 can be a problem but in zoomclimb and higher than that the P51pilot has upper hand.