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View Full Version : ROLLRATE TESTING: Fw-190-A4



TAGERT.
10-06-2005, 11:08 PM
Enjoy

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/NACA_RESULTS/ROLL_RATES/FW190A4/FW190A4_75FUEL.JPG

crazyivan1970
10-06-2005, 11:10 PM
now you pushing it... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TAGERT.
10-06-2005, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
now you pushing it... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif No, in this one I pulled the stick to the right. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FritzGryphon
10-06-2005, 11:56 PM
One I made in 3.04. But yers is prettier http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/fwroll.jpg

Gibbage1
10-07-2005, 12:15 AM
Well thats 3 roll rates that are foobared. Im putting this into the bug catagory. The roll rate picking up after 340MPH is a HUGE bug. Its simply NOT HUMANLY possible without boosted ailerons kicking in AFTER 340MPH. Something only the P-38 had and they used them all the time, not after X speed.

Ivan. Give Oleg a call. Tell him his sim is FUBAR. Have him fix it and get back too us in two weeks, M-kay? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT.
10-07-2005, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
One I made in 3.04. But yers is prettier http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/fwroll.jpg I dont know, I kind of like your colors better! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif how did you calculate the roll rates? visually with a stop watch or did you use the DeviceLink data too?

FritzGryphon
10-07-2005, 01:03 AM
Visually at 1/4 time, average of 2 consecutive rolls. Dunno how I'd bring up the devicelink roll rate.

My data points match yours, so I must have done something right. Even if it took twice as long for 1/3rd as many samples http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

lbhskier37
10-07-2005, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Well thats 3 roll rates that are foobared. Im putting this into the bug catagory. The roll rate picking up after 340MPH is a HUGE bug. Its simply NOT HUMANLY possible without boosted ailerons kicking in AFTER 340MPH. Something only the P-38 had and they used them all the time, not after X speed.

Ivan. Give Oleg a call. Tell him his sim is FUBAR. Have him fix it and get back too us in two weeks, M-kay? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Its FUBAR definetly. The roll rate is super crazy at low speed, and drops down to cr@p where it would be most usefull. Something in 4.01 really f-ed up roll rate for all planes and it really needs a look see. Good thing we got an engineer on the case, us engineers like data. (S! Tagert)

TAGERT.
10-07-2005, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Visually at 1/4 time, average of 2 consecutive rolls. Dunno how I'd bring up the devicelink roll rate.

My data points match yours, so I must have done something right. Even if it took twice as long for 1/3rd as many samples http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif Ah, ok, thanks! Yes, looks like we are seeing the same thing!

On a side note, I decided to move the topics over to SimHQ, here are the links

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=144;t=001056 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=001056)
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=144;t=001055 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=001055)

ElAurens
10-07-2005, 05:43 AM
And to think I got dressed down by one of the blue flyers once for calling the FW's roll rate "fantasy land". Guess I was right.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

DaimonSyrius
10-07-2005, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Enjoy
S' Tagert,

Good job, thanks for your effort http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif This kind of info tastes like nectar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When looking at the rightmost dotted-line segment, from 345 mph onwards, why is that segment changing its slope from what it was before the data point? I would expect the slope to keep going downwards after the last datapoint (extrapoliert http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) unless there are more datapoints making the slope change (interpolation in that case). Maybe there's a further datapoint at 400 mph that got cropped out? That's where your plot and FritzGryphon's differ the most.

*Edit*Actually, 4.01 and and 3.04 also seem to differ a bit/lot in peak roll-rate absolute value, at low speeds, that might be because more datapoints are needed in that region where slopes are changing fast. But as to the general shape of the curve, the upwards deflection at higher speeds appears as a striking difference.

Btw, I have to keep reminding myself about mixing up km/h and mph http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S.

CUJO_1970
10-07-2005, 04:19 PM
The most important speeds for rolling combat is the 250-350 mph range, and the FW190 rolls about 40 deg/sec too slow through these speeds.

We've known about this since before the 4.01 patch was released.

Nobody gives a **** about rolling at 180mph, it's completely useless.

But people will look at the too fast roll at 180mph and say

"the FW190 roll rate is overmodelled duuuuuh!"

FritzGryphon
10-07-2005, 04:28 PM
Maybe there's a further datapoint at 400 mph that got cropped out? That's where your plot and FritzGryphon's differ the most.


At 372mph (600kmh), it's about 65 DPS. I'd assume it keeps going down from that point, and that the last line on Tagert's chart is an artifact made by the software.

I'll do a quick test at 400mph.

EDIT: At 400mph (643kmh) I get 2 rolls in 9 seconds, or 80 DPS. I did it again, and still 80 DPS

So I redid at 345mph (555km/h), and found 65 degrees, just like Tagert says.

The roll rate does actually get better from 345-400mph. Weird.

Vrabac
10-07-2005, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
And to think I got dressed down by one of the blue flyers once for calling the FW's roll rate "fantasy land". Guess I was right.

LOL Well, it sure is fantasy land, but a VERY pessimistic one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElAurens
10-07-2005, 04:46 PM
Well, I'd call that 195mph rate pure fantasy.

Gibbage1
10-07-2005, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:

The roll rate does actually get better from 345-400mph. Weird.

The 109 seems to have the same bug.

CUJO_1970
10-07-2005, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
The roll rate does actually get better from 345-400mph. Weird.



Uh, yes - and it is also still too slow compared to real life values.

Weird, huh?

Vrabac
10-08-2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Well, I'd call that 195mph rate pure fantasy.

Well once you slow down with 190 to such speed in a fight, no amount of fantasy can save you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But at higher speeds, where you are supposed to excell with 190, roll gets seriously undermodelled. So, as someone who flies 190 almost all the time possible on line, I assure you I would rather have RL roll than this "fantasy" one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
10-08-2005, 04:11 PM
given how a 190 handles at slow speed, that roll rate is probably more scary than useful http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

p1ngu666
10-08-2005, 04:30 PM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//fwvsbfroll.jpg

i resized the 109 graph to the same scale as the 190 one

Gibbage1
10-08-2005, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Vrabac:

Well once you slow down with 190 to such speed in a fight, no amount of fantasy can save you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But at higher speeds, where you are supposed to excell with 190, roll gets seriously undermodelled. So, as someone who flies 190 almost all the time possible on line, I assure you I would rather have RL roll than this "fantasy" one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

at 390MPH, its almost correct. Lol.

BSS_Vidar
10-09-2005, 01:43 PM
Wow... Great stuff. I've allways felt the 190's roll rate was a bit on the quick side - to say the least http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Glad we have some peeps able to show us with proof. If they can fix this, and make German aircraft damage models a little more suceptible to .50 cal hits, maaaaybe we might have a more bias game to play.

A/C that has held the fastest roll rate for the past 50 years?

The A-4 Skyhawk = 720 deg/sec
A NATOPS PROHIBITED manuever.

p1ngu666
10-09-2005, 03:30 PM
jesus! @ 720!

BSS_Vidar
10-09-2005, 06:19 PM
Yup! That's two full aileron rolls in one second. The joke in the 2-seat version of the "Scooter" was to say to the back seater... "Hey, what's that over there to the right?" Then snap it to the left on him. The back seater usually ended up with a face full of canopy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Scooters are all but gone now, and Brit Goshawks have taken the place of training our new young Naval Aviators.

faustnik
10-09-2005, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
I've allways felt the 190's roll rate was a bit on the quick side - to say the least http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Really? Funny that you look at it that way. The speeds at which the Fw190 rolls too fast are well below the standard combat speeds for that particular fighter. Over it's most effective maneuvering range, the roll rate is far too low. If it is fixed, you will be finding the Fw190 to an even tougher adversary.

Buzzsaw-
10-09-2005, 08:18 PM
Salute

I think the fact that the 190 rolls much faster at lower speeds than it should is no advantage, since the rollspeeds which can be attained cannot really be used in a practical sense.

At the combat speeds where the 190 normally operates, and where it NEEDS its rollrate, the game version is too slow, and this is far more of a handicap than the overmodelled rate at very low speeds.

To make matters worse, game aircraft which historically had ponderously slow rollrates at low speed, such as the P-38, have overmodelled rollrates there too, and thus suffer no real historical disadvantage.

The inertial effects of the game's lateral movement model need a close look.

Lucius_Esox
10-10-2005, 01:04 AM
The A-4 Skyhawk = 720 deg/sec
A NATOPS PROHIBITED manuever

man.. I got double vision just reading that..

Vrabac
10-10-2005, 06:37 AM
The problem seems to be in people being unable to read graphs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BSS_Vidar
10-17-2005, 12:17 PM
As per my statement about roll rates being too fast, I should have noted that I was refering to the slower speeds only. Anything above 250mph during this erra is B-n-Z tactics where roll rate is pretty much unimportant when engaging other aircraft; therefore, irrelevent to the dogfighting speed envelope.

As for the over-zealous roll rates at the slower speeds having no advantage, I could not disagree more. The 190's now are very hard to get a solid hit on once they start snap rolling at slow speeds (unless you get a lucky shot).

When I fly a 190 and I'm low and slow, snap rolling is my favorate defensive tactic to reduce hits on my airframe until help comes, or I drag him into a bunch of buddys. Why would I be low and slow in a 190? Because I like to dogfight. With this being just a game, I can afford to be shot down once in a while for my cockiness. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Racking up points all nite in this rocket with the B-n-Z gets boring for me.

Granted, the roll rate is a bit slow at higher speeds, which really has no factor to the 190's survivability during B-n-Z tactics; however, it is considerably out-of-wack in the slower speed regime where turn-n-burn fighting is concerned.

faustnik
10-17-2005, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Anything above 250mph during this erra is B-n-Z tactics where roll rate is pretty much unimportant when engaging other aircraft; therefore, irrelevent to the dogfighting speed envelope.



High speed roll is one of the Fw190's most important abilities in both offense and defense. For offensive maneuvers it allows a pair of 190s to switch directions very quickly to gain an shot angle. Defensively, it allows the Fw190 to change direction very quickly and gain separation on a pursuer. I don't understand why anyone would say it is not extremely important? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WWMaxGunz
10-17-2005, 01:01 PM
If your combat usues a lot of vertical then great lowspeed roll is also an advantage
as it lets you change direction quickly at the tops of your passes.

Flying a 190 properly isn't all 500+ kph. You'd never be able to make successive
passes like that. Unless perhaps going way up doesn't slow you down.

The roll does need to be fixed.

faustnik
10-17-2005, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


The roll does need to be fixed.

Yes, please fix it for all a/c.

Grey_Mouser67
10-17-2005, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


The roll does need to be fixed.

Yes, please fix it for all a/c. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that possible?

I have a great appreciation for the complexity of the FM and DM in this game, but I am quickly losing my confidence in the accuracy of the FM and DM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

faustnik
10-17-2005, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:

Is that possible?



Mouser,

All the a/c that Tagert has tested so far have the same incorrectly shaped roll rate curve. That would lead me to believe it is a global FM issue. Maybe 1C will come up with a global fix? They have fixed a lot of stuff before, I'm sure they can do it again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hoarmurath
10-17-2005, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:

Mouser,

All the a/c that Tagert has tested so far have the same incorrectly shaped roll rate curve. That would lead me to believe it is a global FM issue. Maybe 1C will come up with a global fix? They have fixed a lot of stuff before, I'm sure they can do it again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There is something wrong in your statement. The exact statement shouldn't be "all a/c tagert has tested", but "all graphs tagert did"...

DGC763
10-17-2005, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
As per my statement about roll rates being too fast, I should have noted that I was refering to the slower speeds only. Anything above 250mph during this erra is B-n-Z tactics where roll rate is pretty much unimportant when engaging other aircraft; therefore, irrelevent to the dogfighting speed envelope.

As for the over-zealous roll rates at the slower speeds having no advantage, I could not disagree more. The 190's now are very hard to get a solid hit on once they start snap rolling at slow speeds (unless you get a lucky shot).

When I fly a 190 and I'm low and slow, snap rolling is my favorate defensive tactic to reduce hits on my airframe until help comes, or I drag him into a bunch of buddys. Why would I be low and slow in a 190? Because I like to dogfight. With this being just a game, I can afford to be shot down once in a while for my cockiness. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Racking up points all nite in this rocket with the B-n-Z gets boring for me.

Granted, the roll rate is a bit slow at higher speeds, which really has no factor to the 190's survivability during B-n-Z tactics; however, it is considerably out-of-wack in the slower speed regime where turn-n-burn fighting is concerned.

First before you comment get your terminology correct. are you talking aileron roll or "snap roll" Do you actually know what a snap roll is? Is doesn't sound like you are auto-rotating to me.

If you want to fight in the 190 in a an a-historical manner then that is ok but for the boring BnZ crowd a fast roll rates at it's combat speed are vitally important. For example a fast roll rate will allow you to re-adjust your lead angle more quickly in the vertical. Also high speed reversals were a favourite tactic of 190's in order to do this you need a significant roll advantage at speed. Similar to F-86 tactics against the slower rolling Mig 15.

IMHO I wish all aircraft roll rates to be as close to real as possible. For some aircraft roll rates are extremely important as they lack advantages in other areas like climb and turn rate. The FW-190 and P-47 being two such examples.

Nice graphs once again Tagert.

BSS_Vidar
10-17-2005, 07:28 PM
Why, yes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I do know what a snap roll is... For you to use the term "auto-rotate" with this manuever is an indication that you DON'T know what a snap roll is. A snap roll IS an agressive aileron roll, with the aide of rudder throw to increase roll rate.

BTW, Auto-rotation is a term for Helicoper engine failure. This is an emergency proceedure where the use of stored kenetic energy of the rotor blades is utilized to safely return to the helo to the ground without engine power and prevent substantial damage to the airframe all the while "hopefully" saving the lives of the aircrew.

As for the slower roll rate at higher speed in the game, the lack there of is not as dramatic as the excessive ability to snap-aileron roll at slower speeds. If the 190 wasn't able to flip-flop as it does in this game in the Dogfight regime, the game would be more accurate.

In the high speed regime in this game, higher roll rates won't substabtialy help, or even change how the Monitor Jockey would line up on target. The B-n-Z tactic is used when you have a substantial distance and altitute on your intended target. Small, smooth corrections are all that is needed when impossing a B-n-Z sneak attack on an unsuspecting bogie. You don't need a higher roll rate to extend, zoom climb, and set up for a re-attack. However, just-the-same, it needs to be fixed just like the slow-speed raticle roll rates.

WWMaxGunz
10-17-2005, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


The roll does need to be fixed.

Yes, please fix it for all a/c. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max imagines what it would be like to be in a position to be able to do that....

Overworked, underpaid and tired probably. But still feeling great when things are done.
And then most important is to stay away from forms. Only thing worse would be a wife
who could never be happy as long as tomorrow, always wants more, 90% is far too little,
etc.

Life's a beotch and then you marry (or live with) one.

Viper2005_
10-18-2005, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Why, yes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I do know what a snap roll is... For you to use the term "auto-rotate" with this manuever is an indication that you DON'T know what a snap roll is. A snap roll IS an agressive aileron roll, with the aide of rudder throw to increase roll rate.

BTW, Auto-rotation is a term for Helicoper engine failure. This is an emergency proceedure where the use of stored kenetic energy of the rotor blades is utilized to safely return to the helo to the ground without engine power and prevent substantial damage to the airframe all the while "hopefully" saving the lives of the aircrew.


"Snap roll" is American for a Flick roll. It is NOT an aileron roll.

As has been previously correctly stated, a flick roll involves autorotation. Unfortunately, you've been confused by the fact that autorotation is a term also used in rotary wing aviation (albeit in a totally different context, as you correctly describe).

In fixed wing aviation, autorotation is a term used to describe a stable condition of rotating flight. The most commonly cited example of autorotation is the spin.

Autorotation is generally the result of an asymmetric stall. With one wing stalled, and the other still flying, very high angular rates may be generated.

Autorotation may be generated in level flight from an accelerated stall. This allows for roll rates far higher than would be attained by an aileron roll (try 200º/second or more).

Flicks are pretty violent affairs.

To generate one, pull to the buffet boundary, apply full rudder in the direction in which you want to flick, and opposite aileron.

To recover, stick forward, aileron into the roll and opposite rudder.

IL2 does a reasonable flick roll.

But you're probably only going to use it defensively in combat if at all. It costs a lot of energy, and is simply too violent to be used for the generation of a guns solution.

Apart from anything else, flicks are inevitably over-coordinated because of the drag associated with the stalled wing.

And because a flick is effectively only an accelerated spin, you're really setting yourself up for spin entry.

Flicks are great fun if you're into aerobatics (rent a suitable aeroplane with an aerobatic rated instructor and have a go!) but they're not for the feint hearted.

You'd be well advised to start out with gentle stuff like loops, barrel rolls and stall turns (I believe the Americans call the latter "Hammer heads" for some reason; fair enough I suppose given that one doesn't stall in a stall turn...).

Anyway, give it a go and you will see that there really is a <span class="ev_code_RED">world</span> of difference between a flick roll and an aileron roll.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-18-2005, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Well, I'd call that 195mph rate pure fantasy.

yes and the rest is way below real world data, but hey thats ok by you

or didnt you happen to see it?

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-18-2005, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Wow... Great stuff. I've allways felt the 190's roll rate was a bit on the quick side - to say the least http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Glad we have some peeps able to show us with proof. If they can fix this, and make German aircraft damage models a little more suceptible to .50 cal hits, maaaaybe we might have a more bias game to play.


WTF you on crack?
at the most important combat speeds its to low
but nobody seems to see it LOL
tells us much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Edit: didnt see your later post
anyway higher speeds are more important like faustnik said, atleast for those who fly the FW190 the proper way

ElAurens
10-18-2005, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Well, I'd call that 195mph rate pure fantasy.

yes and the rest is way below real world data, but hey thats ok by you

or didnt you happen to see it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I did see it and it should be corrected.

It seems, however that some of you are neglecting the fact that online, more often than not, fights end up low and slow, and in this regime the FW's hyper roll rate puts it at a tremendous advantage. I realize that all aircraft seem to be affected similarly, but the FW rolls so fast normally that it's over done roll rate at low speed is particularly offensive.

DGC763
10-18-2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Why, yes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I do know what a snap roll is... For you to use the term "auto-rotate" with this manuever is an indication that you DON'T know what a snap roll is. A snap roll IS an agressive aileron roll, with the aide of rudder throw to increase roll rate.

BTW, Auto-rotation is a term for Helicoper engine failure. This is an emergency proceedure where the use of stored kenetic energy of the rotor blades is utilized to safely return to the helo to the ground without engine power and prevent substantial damage to the airframe all the while "hopefully" saving the lives of the aircrew.



Try reading Viper's explanation. It is obivious that you suffer from NFI http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif, but that is cool.

As to the other part of your argument that high speed roll rate is not important, how important is it to a BnZ aircraft to adjust the lead angle when doing a high angle entry or re-entry to a fight? Roll rate is all important to this.

The fact is that the 190 will still appear to "flip-flop" as you put it to chasing bandits in the slow speed regime because apart from the Clipped wing spitfire nothing really compares to it in roll rate throughout the envelope.

BSS_Vidar
10-18-2005, 06:15 PM
Read my post again please. What Viper said in so many words is what I said with just a few. The snap roll is an aileron roll <span class="ev_code_RED">with</span> the aide of rudder. The pure ailerone roll is with aileron throw only. The opposite rudder input torques the fuselage around helping to increase roll rate and helps "snap" the plane around.

As for the inboard wing stalling, (Inboard meaning towards the roll) that is a partialy true statement. The wing root may depart, but the wing tip is still flying. Therfore, aileron authority is still available on the inboard wing. If the wing fully departed, then you've lost more that half of you roll authority and it's no longer a roll, but a spin. He's just calling the same manuever by a different name. My 20 years of flying in the Navy has called this the Snap Roll.

Vrabac
10-19-2005, 04:59 AM
It's a very nice theoretical discussion from some people, but fact remains that those who actually use 190 online seem to like RL roll better than the in-game one.

If I understood correctly what you are saying Vidar, B&Z planes might as well have totally inferior turn and roll rates, as all they do is slight adjustments? Well, I don't know what is your in-game experience, and what planes you prefer, but it was always 190's virtue that it was far more manouverable than, say, 109 in high speed dives, making it hard to evade. Because, unless you have 100% surprise on your intended target, people tend to try and avoid you, and it happens a lot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just yesterday I was trying to bounce a group of lightnings and was going really fast, diving from above to just behind them. And the last one saw me just as I wanted to shoot, and all he did is bank to the side, but I just couldn't get my sight on him fast enough, so I wasted that pass. P47 is even more affected by this, as it's roll is slower than 190's, and at high speeds it's easy to evade by it's intended victim because of it. Roll is everything in high speed attack, either it will save the target, or it will prevent it from evading if the attacker can roll to face target's evasion.

About low speed in 190, it's true it can roll extremly well at low speed, but in my experience (and that is hundreds, maybe thousands of kills and really, really many KIAs in 190) that is a last ditch defence. Because 190 that is so slow with an enemy on his 6 can't do a single thing to shake him off, and all it can try is prolong the time needed for the enemy to shoot him down in desperate hope something will hapen before. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if you have buddies that close to save you, than that attacker would probably be dead anyway. And don't tell me now how you shook off people who were on your 6, I shook off some too, but it was their fault every time. On dog servers percentage of those people is higher, and the more "cockpit off, icons on" settings server has, the higher the percentage. So using such experience for proving thins doesn't help (I'm not saying you talked about those servers, but many people do so I just say it in advance). Fight Russians, shake a Russian from your 6 and than I'll get worried. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bottom line is that in my oppinion, and oppinion of many others as it seems, the roll rate is worse than it should be.

Wurkeri
10-19-2005, 08:25 AM
Hi,
I have been lurking around here some time, plenty of threads on rollrate. I wonder if any of these test results are based on tests of more than one example of a type? What if the tested example was just a bad sample?

Below is a thread where one writer says that tested Fw 190 had badly adjusted ailerons and that seem to be supported by evidence (some links are not working anymore).

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/3591052533/p/2

MystiqBlackCat
10-19-2005, 10:08 AM
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Well thats 3 roll rates that are foobared. Im putting this into the bug catagory. The roll rate picking up after 340MPH is a HUGE bug. Its simply NOT HUMANLY possible without boosted ailerons kicking in AFTER 340MPH. Something only the P-38 had and they used them all the time, not after X speed. [QUOTE]

FW-190's had eletrical controls, sort of a primitive fly by wire system. Eletric servos moved the control surfaces, they wre connected to the cockpit by low voltage wiring and powered by a battery well protected by armor behind the pilot's seat. Could that influence the roll rate in a similar manner as the P-38's hydrolically boosted controls. Would that also make FW's less likely to take damage to their controls?

BSS_Vidar
10-19-2005, 07:43 PM
No sir, I'm not saying the roll rate should be inferior at all at those higher speeds. My concerns are with the excessive roll rate in the slower airspeeds. By-all-means, fix the slow roll rate at the highter airspeeds. But they do need to tone down the 190's ability to flip-flop all over at the slower airspeeds as shown in the posters charts.

WWMaxGunz
10-19-2005, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by MystiqBlackCat:
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Well thats 3 roll rates that are foobared. Im putting this into the bug catagory. The roll rate picking up after 340MPH is a HUGE bug. Its simply NOT HUMANLY possible without boosted ailerons kicking in AFTER 340MPH. Something only the P-38 had and they used them all the time, not after X speed. [QUOTE]

FW-190's had eletrical controls, sort of a primitive fly by wire system. Eletric servos moved the control surfaces, they wre connected to the cockpit by low voltage wiring and powered by a battery well protected by armor behind the pilot's seat. Could that influence the roll rate in a similar manner as the P-38's hydrolically boosted controls. Would that also make FW's less likely to take damage to their controls?

Primary controls or trim or just pure BS?

Low voltage wiring to a battery wouldn't give enough power to move control surfaces
hard and fast. 12V to trim maybe but if you see a trim wheel then no it wasn't electric.

FW's had an electric control system for engine and prop control.

Gibbage1
10-19-2005, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by MystiqBlackCat:

FW-190's had eletrical controls, sort of a primitive fly by wire system. Eletric servos moved the control surfaces, they wre connected to the cockpit by low voltage wiring and powered by a battery well protected by armor behind the pilot's seat. Could that influence the roll rate in a similar manner as the P-38's hydrolically boosted controls. Would that also make FW's less likely to take damage to their controls?

Ya. I agree with Max on this one. I call BS. Look at the roll rate chart, and the FW looses roll rate FAST once it gets up to speed. Then look atthe boosted P-38 and it only goes up as speed goes up. I doubt you could get 60lb of force from a small low voltage system to move an aileron at high speed. I do know the trim was electric, and a slow motor on a low voltage system would be good for that, but not the entire aileron. I think you need to re-check your sources.

luftluuver
10-20-2005, 02:46 AM
trim.
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Read my post again please. What Viper said in so many words is what I said with just a few. The snap roll is an aileron roll <span class="ev_code_RED">with</span> the aide of rudder. The pure ailerone roll is with aileron throw only. The opposite rudder input torques the fuselage around helping to increase roll rate and helps "snap" the plane around.

Is another name for 'aileron' roll, 'barrel' roll?


Agh guys, the only electric controls on the 190 for flight surfaces was that for <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">stab trim</span>. Connections to the control surfaces were by metal rods(ailerons) and cables and metal rods(rudder and elevator).

WWMaxGunz
10-20-2005, 07:59 AM
Hey, trim was one of the choices I put in there.

Simple small motor turning a jack screw with a ton of leverage I can see that easily,
just wasn't sure if the plane had such which is why I say you see a trim wheel then
forget it... won't have both though it's possible in a screwy way.

No way to supply enough current from battery to solenoid and get 20+kg forces held for
time required to maneuver... this is about roll btw. Cables would have to be bus bar
thick, battery and solenoid would have to be massive, or a servo likewise massive. It
takes too much power to move and hold those forces by electric alone (jack screw holds
by mechanical advantage but movement is relatively slow) so I just can't see it, primary
controls by electric. Modern planes with powered controls use hydraulic, weighs less
but still not light and speed/response is not as fast as hand on stick. I am not guessing
about that either. The difference is very real.

Viper2005_
10-20-2005, 10:18 AM
Read my post again Vidar.

A true flick roll is certainly not an aileron roll assisted with the rudder.

You enter from the buffet boundary applying rudder in the direction you wish to roll, and opposite aileron. This stall the inboard wing from the tip inwards.

Recovery is just like spin recovery. The flick roll is to the spin as the accelerated stall is to the stall.

Aeroplane monthly says:

Flick Roll. A rapidly executed roll in a horizontal plane in which the aeroplane is turned completely around its longitudinal axis by use of both rudder and elevators and continues in level flight. A flick roll is in reality a horizontal spin and the aeroplane is temporarily out of control during its course. The flick roll was first demonstrated on a Bristol Scout in 1914 and was popular as a spectacular aerobatic during the age of small man"uvrable single-seat fighter biplanes. Powerful elevators are needed to force a modern aeroplane into a flick roll.

Taken from:

http://www.aeroplanemonthly.com/glossary/glossary_F.htm

See also:

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/judging/judging-flickrolls.htm

and

http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule8.html
(scroll down)

As to the Fw-190's control system, it uses mechanical control rods for primary flight control (elevator, aileron, rudder) and has electrically actuated flaps and undercarriage.

See "Wings of the Luftwaffe" by Captain Eric Brown CBE, DSC, ADC, RN
Published By Airlife Publishing Ltd.
ISBN 1 85310 413 2

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aws/cart/add.html/104-7006948-...=Buy+from+Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aws/cart/add.html/104-7006948-9970316?SubscriptionId=D68HUNXKLHS4J&AssociateTag=warbirdsresou-20&ASIN.1=1853104132&Quantity.1=1&linkCode=as1&submit.add.x=54&submit.add.y=8&submit.add=Buy+from+Amazon.com)

luftluuver
10-20-2005, 11:18 AM
Viper, maybe you are generalizing but the the only control surface that used control rods completely for operation were the ailerons.

For the elevator, the control run started with a rod to a bellcrank just behind Bulkhead 8, where it switched to dual cables and then switched back to rods at the differential unit just behind the fuselage/tail unit joint.

For the rudder, it started with adjustable rods, then to Duz flexible rods and then switched to cables at the differential unit just behind Bulkhead 12 for the run to the rudder.

Viper2005_
10-20-2005, 11:50 AM
Thankyou. I didn't have access to that degree of detail.

Gibbage1
10-21-2005, 01:11 AM
Has anyone yet bothered to do the roll rate test on 4.02?

FritzGryphon
10-21-2005, 01:31 AM
I tested for one point, 200mph.

I find ~170 dps. Same as 4.01.

BSS_Vidar
10-21-2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Is another name for 'aileron' roll, 'barrel' roll?

Negative, A barrel roll is a coordinted manuever that has constant change throughout the manuever about all three axis. To execute a pure barrel roll, when you are inverted, you should be 90 degrees off heading and roll out off-set and parrellel to the left or right of your original path of flight.

Too hard to explain w/o pictures. Go here http://www.bss214.com/ click on Tactics, then click on "Vidars Tactics Guide". All the most basic combat manuevers are right there for you to both see, and read.

The snap roll is an un-coordinated manuever which initialy uses opposite rudder to aileron throw, then when inverted, rudder input goes into the turn, then opposite again coming out of the snap roll. The rudder movement aides in adding extra torque to the manuever to snap the plane over more quickly.

Ugly_Kid
10-21-2005, 03:58 PM
Viper is right. Snap roll is nothing more than a spin on horizontal level, you don't necessarily need any aileron at all for it. It starts somewhat over stall speed by applying full back pressure, you kick the rudder on the roll side and voila stall the roll side wing on a gee stall. After performing a full roll or let's say 3/4 of a roll you need to stop it by pushing the stick forward and kicking the opposite rudder. The difference to a spin is that your forward momentum keeps you flying forward and the nose doesn't come down.

There's also another nice manouver applying half a snap roll (you stop it inverted) and pull a half looping - as opposed to split-S it's much quicker. It was developed by polish aerobatic glider pilot Adam Zientek and the manouver is known as Adam's. The high roll inertia due to span usually makes a full snap roll difficult to perform on a glider, therefore he came up with half-one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

luftluuver
10-21-2005, 07:24 PM
Went searching.

Barrel Roll: - The barrel roll is a combination between a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while completing one roll at the same time. The flight path during a barrel roll has the shape of a horizontal cork screw. Imagine a big barrel, with the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the barrel in a cork screw path. During a barrel roll, the pilot always experiences positive G€s.

BSS_Vidar
10-22-2005, 11:58 AM
Sounds just about right Luft. Did you check out the BSS tactics page? I think I did a swell job drawing it out for ya. ;-)

luftluuver
10-22-2005, 04:45 PM
Yes checked it out. Nice. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif