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View Full Version : OT So Young, So Tragic and Such a Waste, But A Hero Too



Taylortony
07-21-2006, 03:34 PM
I will never malign the youth of today again.......... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2278259,00.html

Taylortony
07-21-2006, 03:34 PM
I will never malign the youth of today again.......... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2278259,00.html

VV_Holdenb
07-21-2006, 03:38 PM
That is soooo sad http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jester_159th
07-21-2006, 03:44 PM
A very brave young man. Very sad.

danjama
07-21-2006, 03:46 PM
I respect that boy. I would definately tip my wing to him too. RIP.

Worf101
07-21-2006, 05:18 PM
There's an old bible saying that starts..

"No greater love hath a man than to give..."

I think you know the rest...

Da Worfster

-HH- Beebop
07-21-2006, 05:29 PM
<span class="ev_code_black">Salute!</span>
A brave and splendid thing to do. God bless the family.

Stackhouse25th
07-21-2006, 05:39 PM
i kind of doubt he was trying to avoid hitting something. probably just cross controlled it sending it into an unusual nose down attitude

I_KG100_Prien
07-21-2006, 05:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
i kind of doubt he was trying to avoid hitting something. probably just cross controlled it sending it into an unusual nose down attitude </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you ask him what he did.. Wait. You can't.

Don't be a jerk. You have no idea what went through that guys mind when the mishap occoured. Maybe he did it intentionally... Maybe it was coincidence. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

LStarosta
07-21-2006, 05:57 PM
Carburator icing? It's really easy to do in a Cessna 150.

Poor guy.

BfHeFwMe
07-21-2006, 06:21 PM
Sixteen and soloing with 15 hours AND no adult aboard? Seems a bit negligent, you don't even toss the car keys to them that young without going along. They simply aren't ready, they lack critical problem solving skills which require sound judgement based on life experiance, precisely what they lack.

Bet he didn't even have a drivers licence.

-HH- Beebop
07-21-2006, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
i kind of doubt he was trying to avoid hitting something. probably just cross controlled it sending it into an unusual nose down attitude </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How nice of you to say so. If you felt that way, why post at all?

LStarosta
07-21-2006, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Sixteen and soloing with 15 hours AND no adult aboard? Seems a bit negligent, you don't even toss the car keys to them that young without going along. They simply aren't ready, they lack critical problem solving skills which require sound judgement based on life experiance, precisely what they lack.

Bet he didn't even have a drivers licence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I take offense to that. Then again, mostly because I'm 18.

MLudner
07-21-2006, 06:28 PM
OK, reality: Brave? No, that had nothing to do with it. He was going down no matter what.

However, he showed excellent responsibility and humanity in his concern for the safety of others for which he shall have my undying regard.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

danjama
07-21-2006, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
OK, reality: Brave? No, that had nothing to do with it. He was going down no matter what.

However, he showed excellent responsibility and humanity in his concern for the safety of others for which he shall have my undying regard.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was brave. I try to imagine myself in his shoes...i would feel damn brave about the whole "im about to die" thing....think about it

BfHeFwMe
07-21-2006, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:

I take offense to that. Then again, mostly because I'm 18. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but you'd have a full two year jump messing around with cars and motorbikes, with a pretty good understanding of what makes them tick. Plus the fact flying two years with experianced adults handling emergencies or discussing them. Odds are you or anyone else with that edge could have kept the plane out of that condition or restarted it.


Could have been something as simple as forgetting to switch fuel boost on.

Haigotron
07-21-2006, 06:57 PM
How many 16 year olds would think and react that way when theyre about to die?

carguy_
07-21-2006, 07:08 PM
This guy was a kid!!!WHO THE F... GIVES PLANE TO A KID TO FLY ALLONE?!I dunno maybe you have such idiotic law?!Or maybe the guy let him fly should go to jail because IMO he killed him!


On a sidenote,I`d like to question ppl here to recreate the crash.As a physics moron I simply can`t imagine how the plane immediately lost liftforce and just spinned into the ground.Banking?Is that usual when aeroplane loses lift rapidly? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Stackhouse25th
07-21-2006, 07:11 PM
cross controlling. for student pilots its easy to do. and if hes low enough he will be in a nose down attitude.

danjama
07-21-2006, 07:17 PM
IIRC the sort of altitude he would of been at is around 1000ft, not high atall...this is based on the altitude i cruised at over thesame location when i was flying from the same airport...

carguy_
07-21-2006, 07:18 PM
I know I saw copter licence program.A big part of the training was learnin to use the possibilities with a dead engine(the spiralling method).Thought the emergency procedures are always throughoutly trained with license candidates...???

Taylortony
07-21-2006, 07:34 PM
Please gentlemen show a bit more respect, reading between the lines it does sound as if he got into a stall situation that rapidly developed into a spin, but he does seem to have tried to steer it into a clear area and for that he deserves better......... Salute to a brave young gentlemen who unfortunately is no longer here to defend himself from some of these comments..........

As for his age, that does not come into it, you can start flying training in the UK from the age of about 14 but cannot go solo till your 16 birthday if my memory serves me correctly.... we have had several pilots who have done just that and indeed recieved their Pilots licence before ever entering a car..................... You have to remember no instructor is ever going to let anyone go solo if they have the slightest doubt............. how do you think he is feeling now.......... age is immaterial, to be honest he is probably better off than a 60 year old pilot retiring and looking for a new interest, young people of today are brought up in the computer age and have been weaned on the likes of Flight Sim amongst others, from this they have nurtured their dreams and have gone onto flying, the older pilot not having seen a pc game can be at a somewhat disadvantage in that respect but in another is totally mouldable knowlege wise..... it is often said PC pilots are not visually aware as they have spent hours of FS heads down flying on instruments..................... most of the younger trainee pilots I have had the pleasure to meet had a maturity far beyond their years...


But please do show a bit of decorum here, this poor lad died trying to save others, without any thought of his own tragic end.......... for that he has my blessing and that of the many other people on the ground that could have been grieving tonight..

My heart and feelings go out to his family and friends, he will be sorely missed.

huggy87
07-21-2006, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Sixteen and soloing with 15 hours AND no adult aboard? Seems a bit negligent, you don't even toss the car keys to them that young without going along. They simply aren't ready, they lack critical problem solving skills which require sound judgement based on life experiance, precisely what they lack.

Bet he didn't even have a drivers licence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is the flying age in britain? Here in the states it is 16 to solo and 17 for a liscence. I was flying around solo at 17, but for the grace of god went I.

Taylortony
07-21-2006, 07:38 PM
the same

Taylortony
07-21-2006, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Sixteen and soloing with 15 hours AND no adult aboard? Seems a bit negligent, you don't even toss the car keys to them that young without going along. They simply aren't ready, they lack critical problem solving skills which require sound judgement based on life experiance, precisely what they lack.

Bet he didn't even have a drivers licence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do not believe it, I have met some pretty spectacular and extremely competent young pilots that have gone on to fly for airlines at young ages..............

LStarosta
07-21-2006, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
This guy was a kid!!!WHO THE F... GIVES PLANE TO A KID TO FLY ALLONE?!I dunno maybe you have such idiotic law?!Or maybe the guy let him fly should go to jail because IMO he killed him!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I flew an airplane for the first time when I was 8. I went on my first XC when I was 10.

I'm 18 now and still alive, kickin, and flying. Your point is?



My guess is that the guy was descending from altitude with throttle cut, forgot to turn on his carburetor heat, carburetor icing formed, engine stalled and died. He panicked then with no power, stalled and crashed. It's hard to tell what happened when you have only the ambiguous one-sentence descriptions from eye witnesses.

Ruy Horta
07-22-2006, 12:24 AM
Of course a tragedy, but I have to agree that people tend to glorify events as much as they tend to throw mud.

An objective analysis would probably confirm that the pilot at no time thought of staying away from a playground, he probably hadn't time to think about anything other than getting safely on the ground (or retaining control).

Again a tragic event, but a "hero" - perhaps, but probably not...

IMHO the word hero is very cheap nowadays.

HotelBushranger
07-22-2006, 12:40 AM
Well, I'm turning 16 in September, and going on a flying course and soloing at the end of it in October. Guess I better keep clear of playgrounds.

-HH- Beebop
07-22-2006, 12:56 AM
I can't believe all the posts here that want to find fault with the pilot, or someone else or just cast dispersion on the thought that this young man had less than the highest intentions of trying to save as many lives as possible.
Of course we'll really never know what he was thinking so what makes you think you do?

This last weekend at the Hillsboro Airshow, 73 year old Paul Guiford died when his restored 1951 Hawker Hunter jet crashed shortly after takeoff. The aircraft crashed into a residential neighborhood destroying several homes. Fortunately no one was home and Mr. Guiford was the only victim.
http://www.katu.com/news/images/story2006/060717_jet_gulford_422.jpg
No one sat around blaming him. His surviving family attests that he was particularly careful in pre-flight and kept the jet meticulously maintained. They all say he would have steered clear of the homes if he could. No one has even suggested he held any fault.
(ref.) http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=87652)

Don't try and justify your crassness by saying that "the truth must be told", you don't know it. Don't say your just expressing your point of view. If if you can't say anything nice, especially about the dead, don't say anything at all.

I'm appalled at some folks lack of respect.

Ruy Horta
07-22-2006, 02:09 AM
From the basic article I read the wish to find some purpose into what's otherwise a tragic death of a 16 year old.

WTE_Googly
07-22-2006, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
From the basic article I read the wish to find some purpose into what's otherwise a tragic death of a 16 year old. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Leave that to the experts who are in a better position to assess what they think happened, we are not really given quite enough information to draw our own conclusions.

My condolences to the family.

Maybe it was coincidence that he happened to come down on a cricket pitch, maybe not, but do not let that get in the way of the fact that a young aviator has tragically lost his life.

Engadin
07-22-2006, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
age is immaterial, to be honest he is probably better off than a 60 year old pilot retiring and looking for a new interest,...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not being serious, are you? 44 years of difference in real flying experience, despite of the state of your bones and muscles, since when doesnâ´t count if you enter a spin and a stall afterwards at 1000 feet?
Are you telling us that the flying hours in a PC are more or less equivalent to any real life flying hour? Really? Is it the same thing to lose your life in a crash than crashing on Il-2 blaming it on your poor crate, walk to the fridge, get a coke and get to fly again?
We are talking about real life, it is unfair for the killed boy to take it to the virtual world. This death is real, for God's sake.

Stoepsel_31
07-22-2006, 03:04 PM
I soloed in a glider at an age of 14.

So whats the point ?

Airmail109
07-22-2006, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Engadin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
age is immaterial, to be honest he is probably better off than a 60 year old pilot retiring and looking for a new interest,...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not being serious, are you? 44 years of difference in real flying experience, despite of the state of your bones and muscles, since when doesnâ´t count if you enter a spin and a stall afterwards at 1000 feet?
Are you telling us that the flying hours in a PC are more or less equivalent to any real life flying hour? Really? Is it the same thing to lose your life in a crash than crashing on Il-2 blaming it on your poor crate, walk to the fridge, get a coke and get to fly again?
We are talking about real life, it is unfair for the killed boy to take it to the virtual world. This death is real, for God's sake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to start somewhere. Im 18. I did all sorts of crazy stuff when i was 16, flying, downhill mountain biking, rock climbing and mountaineering. As i said everyone starts somewhere it doesnt matter what age you are. Even if that guy was 20 he probably still would have killed himself. You have to accept the inherent risks when you take part in a potentially dangerous activity. Youll find if we start nannying our childerent and forcing them not to do anything deemed potentially dangerous, we will have no real atheletes or sportsmen left. Our youth will be degenerated into a bunch of crying, wimpy no good for nothings.

RIP to the kid who died doing what he enjoyed. I have far more respect for you than those people who live until they are 70 who are to afraid to do what they desired.

danjama
07-22-2006, 03:49 PM
I was thinkin about this thread today, and got to thinking about just how many aviation sites had picked up on this tragedy, and posted about it, only for negative responses like what we see here to be emulated almost.

I spared a thought for the family and friends of the lost boy, and how they would feel inside if they saw some of the disrespectful comments, on this board, and potentially (probably) others regarding this boys death. It's very sad. My thoughts are with them, if only for this brief period in time.

(Yes i know i posted already, but i had to come back and say what was on my mind).

LStarosta
07-22-2006, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Engadin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
age is immaterial, to be honest he is probably better off than a 60 year old pilot retiring and looking for a new interest,...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



You are not being serious, are you? 44 years of difference in real flying experience, despite of the state of your bones and muscles, since when doesnâ´t count if you enter a spin and a stall afterwards at 1000 feet?
Are you telling us that the flying hours in a PC are more or less equivalent to any real life flying hour? Really? Is it the same thing to lose your life in a crash than crashing on Il-2 blaming it on your poor crate, walk to the fridge, get a coke and get to fly again?
We are talking about real life, it is unfair for the killed boy to take it to the virtual world. This death is real, for God's sake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to start somewhere. Im 18. I did all sorts of crazy stuff when i was 16, flying, downhill mountain biking, rock climbing and mountaineering. As i said everyone starts somewhere it doesnt matter what age you are. Even if that guy was 20 he probably still would have killed himself. You have to accept the inherent risks when you take part in a potentially dangerous activity. Youll find if we start nannying our childerent and forcing them not to do anything deemed potentially dangerous, we will have no real atheletes or sportsmen left. Our youth will be degenerated into a bunch of crying, wimpy no good for nothings.

RIP to the kid who died doing what he enjoyed. I have far more respect for you than those people who live until they are 70 who are to afraid to do what they desired. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


+1

Airmail for teh winz.

Taylortony
07-22-2006, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Engadin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
age is immaterial, to be honest he is probably better off than a 60 year old pilot retiring and looking for a new interest,...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not being serious, are you? 44 years of difference in real flying experience, despite of the state of your bones and muscles, since when doesnâ´t count if you enter a spin and a stall afterwards at 1000 feet?
Are you telling us that the flying hours in a PC are more or less equivalent to any real life flying hour? Really? Is it the same thing to lose your life in a crash than crashing on Il-2 blaming it on your poor crate, walk to the fridge, get a coke and get to fly again?
We are talking about real life, it is unfair for the killed boy to take it to the virtual world. This death is real, for God's sake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No I am saying a 60 year old that has retired from his job whatever it was and is looking for a hobby and is starting to learn to fly as opposed to a 16 year old who is also starting to learn how to fly, NOT a retiring pilot.

does this make it sound better?, was badly worded

age is immaterial, to be honest he is probably better off than a 60 year old TRAINEE pilot, who after retiring is looking for a new interest,......

Viper2005_
07-22-2006, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Sixteen and soloing with 15 hours AND no adult aboard? Seems a bit negligent, you don't even toss the car keys to them that young without going along. They simply aren't ready, they lack critical problem solving skills which require sound judgement based on life experiance, precisely what they lack.

Bet he didn't even have a drivers licence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get off it. I was solo in gliders within a month of my 16th birthday, after less than 4 hours' flying and 40 winch launches. My "critical problem solving skills" and "life experience" were quite up to the task.

My logbook tells me that I was flying solo in Cessna 150/152s after a grand total of 12.4 hours.

Nothing negligent whatsoever about sending him solo at 15 hours if he was ready to make a circuit and land. That's how you learn.

As for holding a driving license, don't make me laugh. I still don't have one. I hold a valid PPL, and a valid GPL. So what? Driving is pretty boring, and I have no particular need to drive since I'm a student. I fly for fun.

***

I'd bet good money that the poor chap was trying to avoid hitting something. Hitting things is bad for your health!

Carb ice is certainly a potential cause. Good old fashioned engine failures still happen though.

From the witness description it sounds as though he'd picked his field as per the forced landing drill and was unfortunate enough to stall during one of the turns in his circuit, resulting in a spin at low level from which he failed to recover.

It is worth noting that PFL drills are carried out with the engine at idle, which gives a rather optimistic impression of the glide angle actually available in the event of a real engine failure. This, and the fact that practical spin training is no longer part of the PPL syllabus may have contributed to this tragedy.

Was he brave?

Well, in my book he fits the description. He obviously planned a course of action and attempted to execute it.

The easiest thing to do would have been to simply freeze.

<span class="ev_code_red">God Speed, Sam Cross.</span>

There but for the Grace of God goes this agnostic...

Stackhouse25th
07-22-2006, 04:19 PM
The pilot that crashed at the HIO airshow should have ejected and that is my criticism. Engine failure at his altitude means no restart, no maneuvering, just ejecting.

danjama
07-22-2006, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Sixteen and soloing with 15 hours AND no adult aboard? Seems a bit negligent, you don't even toss the car keys to them that young without going along. They simply aren't ready, they lack critical problem solving skills which require sound judgement based on life experiance, precisely what they lack.

Bet he didn't even have a drivers licence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get off it. I was solo in gliders within a month of my 16th birthday, after less than 4 hours' flying and 40 winch launches. My "critical problem solving skills" and "life experience" were quite up to the task.

My logbook tells me that I was flying solo in Cessna 150/152s after a grand total of 12.4 hours.

Nothing negligent whatsoever about sending him solo at 15 hours if he was ready to make a circuit and land. That's how you learn.

As for holding a driving license, don't make me laugh. I still don't have one. I hold a valid PPL, and a valid GPL. So what? Driving is pretty boring, and I have no particular need to drive since I'm a student. I fly for fun.

***

I'd bet good money that the poor chap was trying to avoid hitting something. Hitting things is bad for your health!

Carb ice is certainly a potential cause. Good old fashioned engine failures still happen though.

From the witness description it sounds as though he'd picked his field as per the forced landing drill and was unfortunate enough to stall during one of the turns in his circuit, resulting in a spin at low level from which he failed to recover.

It is worth noting that PFL drills are carried out with the engine at idle, which gives a rather optimistic impression of the glide angle actually available in the event of a real engine failure. This, and the fact that practical spin training is no longer part of the PPL syllabus may have contributed to this tragedy.

Was he brave?

Well, in my book he fits the description. He obviously planned a course of action and attempted to execute it.

The easiest thing to do would have been to simply freeze.

<span class="ev_code_red">God Speed, Sam Cross.</span>

There but for the Grace of God goes this agnostic... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely with you.

Warrington_Wolf
07-22-2006, 05:51 PM
R.I.P kid
My thoughts are with has family and friends.

PE_Tigar
07-23-2006, 04:34 AM
I soloed after little over 13 hours. 15 is more than enough. We also have a 17 year old kid in our flying club, and he's almost done with the PPL course. So he was old enough and had enough training for a solo flight.

To crash a C-150 like that you really need to do something seriously wrong--engine power loss is no reason for loosing control, he could have made an emergency landing, and with C-150 with 30-40 degree flaps you need very little space. Also, I believe that he had some emergency landing training.

I wouldn't say it was a frozen carburetor, it would freeze only with less than 4 degree Celsius outside temperature (if over 1900 RPM) and if you're under 1900 RPM you're on the base leg anyway. Besides, carburetor doesn't freeze instantaneously, you'd have ample warning before it happens.

Also, if the plane was "out of control" how he could've "steered it away from homes" etc.? It was either spinning out of control, or was stearable.

So, to conclude, it is a tragic loss, there might have been something wrong with the plane, but the pilot must have done something wrong and the lack of training is no excuse. However, I wouldn't say it's his fault, I would rather point the finger at the examinator who examined him before his first solo flight and his instructors--they made the decision to let him fly solo, and it seems that they have made an erroneous decision to let him do it.

Friendly_flyer
07-23-2006, 06:09 AM
Sometimes aeroplanes fall from the sky. Finding whose fault it is will only be a fruitful exercise if it can stop similar accident from happening in the future. The boy apparently did his best to find an open space, either to make an emergency landing or crash. He probably saved some lives in coerce of action. Using this as an opportunity to put blame somewhere is rather bad form in my book.

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 06:13 AM
There were 'kids' flying planes around whilst getting shot at in WW2 not much older than 16 so why is it deemed to be 'too young'?

HotelBushranger
07-23-2006, 06:15 AM
Yes, even if it's not 100% true it's still nice for the blokes parents to feel that, and IMO that is more important than getting the 'full story' printed on every newspaper.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There were 'kids' flying planes around whilst getting shot at in WW2 not much older than 16 so why is it deemed to be 'too young'? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bloody oath ey.

danjama
07-23-2006, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
There were 'kids' flying planes around whilst getting shot at in WW2 not much older than 16 so why is it deemed to be 'too young'? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, and also with much less than 16hrs time, and going strait to 1100HP planes!! Then taking 20mm rounds up the jacksie! I am sure that his age is not to blame.

Taylortony
07-23-2006, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
The pilot that crashed at the HIO airshow should have ejected and that is my criticism. Engine failure at his altitude means no restart, no maneuvering, just ejecting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are 2 flaws in your critism here unfortunately one through the lack of knowledge... Unlike the UK the USA deems ejector seats in privately operated jets to be dangerous so they are deactivated, rolling it onto is back and freefalling out was not an option at circuit height.

From the Film shot at the time he was possibly having engine problems and was attempting to bring it back around in the circuit to land, (he was on the downwind leg and still had flaps and gear down for landing). But until the report comes out, bar the fact the seat was deactivated the rest is just conjectur....

For your second thought of the day "Engine failure at his altitude means no restart, no maneuvering, just ejecting"

Believe it or not a lot of Pilots just do not bang out willy nilly, they assess the risks and if they think it is going to go into a built up area, school etc they stay with it even knowing the outcome will probably be the loss of their lives..... It takes a hard calous person to leave a sticken aircraft to its own devices when they can see a school or what ever in it's path.

I can remember the case in the Europe quite a few years ago of a MIG 23 on take off in Poland, the aircraft experienced engine problems and the pilot seeing that nothing was in its path ejected, unfortunately the Aircraft then carried on unmanned some 560 miles before crashing into a house in Belguim and killing the 19 year old inside.............

From the New York Times of that day

Published: July 9, 1989
LEAD: The MIG-23 fighter flown by Col. Nikolai Skurigin last week was not as badly damaged as he thought. Colonel Skurigin noticed smoke from one engine right after he took off on a training flight from Kohlberg, Poland. The pilot ejected soon after takeoff; the plane kept going, and going and going. The pilotless MIG picked up an escort of United States fighters from the Netherlands as it headed toward the English Channel.

The MIG-23 fighter flown by Col. Nikolai Skurigin last week was not as badly damaged as he thought. Colonel Skurigin noticed smoke from one engine right after he took off on a training flight from Kohlberg, Poland. The pilot ejected soon after takeoff; the plane kept going, and going and going. The pilotless MIG picked up an escort of United States fighters from the Netherlands as it headed toward the English Channel. It did not make it. It crashed into a house in Belgium, killing a man. The next day, the Soviet Union offered to compensate the dead man's family, and Colonel Skurigin publicly apologized, saying, ''If I could have foreseen such tragic consequences to this pilotless flight, I would have stayed in the plane to the end.''


LEAD: Belgium complained to the Soviet Union today about the lack of warning before a pilotless Soviet MIG-23 fighter plane crashed in western Belgium Tuesday, killing a man in his home.

Belgium complained to the Soviet Union today about the lack of warning before a pilotless Soviet MIG-23 fighter plane crashed in western Belgium Tuesday, killing a man in his home.

The pilot of the jet had ejected over Poland after what the Soviets called a ''malfunction.'' The plane, armed with conventional weapons, continued on automatic pilot for about 560 miles over East and West Germany and the Netherlands before it crashed outside the Belgian city of Kortrijk.

Mark Eyskens, the Belgian Foreign Minister, called in the Soviet Ambassador, Feliks P. Bogdanov, for an explanation this morning. Mr. Eyskens said he was particularly disturbed that from the time the MiG-23 was first picked up on NATO radar to the time it crashed more than an hour later, no word of warning came from the Soviet side. He said there was also a ''notable slowness'' on the part of the Soviets in disclosing whether the jet was carrying nuclear or toxic weapons.

BaronUnderpants
07-23-2006, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Of course a tragedy, but I have to agree that people tend to glorify events as much as they tend to throw mud.

An objective analysis would probably confirm that the pilot at no time thought of staying away from a playground, he probably hadn't time to think about anything other than getting safely on the ground (or retaining control).

Again a tragic event, but a "hero" - perhaps, but probably not...

IMHO the word hero is very cheap nowadays. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

No dissrespect intended to the pilot, but he was proppably bussy beeing scared, like most of us would have been. Its a tragedy, calling him a hero doesnt make it one bit better for friends and family.

And no one is trying to make it out to be his "fault" it was a tragic accident, nothing more nothing less.

RIP.

John_Stag
07-23-2006, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IMHO the word hero is very cheap nowadays. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't say so from the number of armchair analysts posting here. Though if he fell into a spin at low altitude, I doubt there was much he could do in the way of choosing where he died.

And he did die. Maybe he did get a vestige of control and aim the aircraft away from harm, maybe he just lost control of his bowels as his machine augered in and there was nothing he could do about it. I don't know.

Neither do you. You want to second-guess the dead? put yourself in their shoes.

System-M-
07-23-2006, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
The pilot that crashed at the HIO airshow should have ejected and that is my criticism. Engine failure at his altitude means no restart, no maneuvering, just ejecting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were you born a moron?

As TonyT Says you cant eject willy nilly.
If you went and told my neighbour NikNak the Harrier GR9 Pilot who ejected last week in Oxford he would probably laugh at you. All Pilots whether they be Civilian or Fighter Pilots are all trained to assess situations with the aim of bringing the plane down safely or making sure it hits the ground safely before you eject and are never told to just hit the silk.

As for that hunter its allready been said about FAA regulations and ejector seats.

If the Harrier Pilot had followed your rules on his circuit and just ejected Last week there would have been 20+ dead as he would have let it hit a Pub full of People and perhaps cars travelling on the road alongside of it. Instead He ejected 2 seconds before impact avoiding casulaties.

Please think before you open your mouth we are talking about lost lives in some cases and unless you are an experienced pilot or some sort of instructor i don't think you have a real right to say if a Pilot was experienced enough or not in his actions.

Please It would be nice to see some respectful Posts in this forum rather than the disrespectful words of some.

LStarosta
07-23-2006, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by System-M-:


Were you born a moron?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by System-M-:

Please It would be nice to see some respectful Posts in this forum rather than the disrespectful words of some. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Grue_
07-23-2006, 11:38 AM
An experienced instructor and his pupil were tragically killed at Biggin Hill recently when the engine failed on take off. I believe the instructor tried to turn back to the airfield and stalled the plane. Age and experience didn't help here unfortunately.

A stalled aircraft is beyond guidance but the media often state the pilot bravely steered the plane away from a school/houses etc.

Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche covers this sort of incident quite well.

The accident report should provide details of what actually happened.

My condolences to the young pilot, his family and friends http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

DHC2Pilot
07-23-2006, 04:56 PM
First of all, let me respond to the posts regarding carburetor icing. The ambient air temperature has very little to do with carburetor icing. Icing is caused in the venturi of the carburetor due to the drop in temperature caused by the venturi effect, or the acceleration in velocity of the air passing through the venturi. A humid summer day is the ideal time to pick up carburetor ice - the more moisture in the air the more likely icing becomes. The pilot should have had some indication that icing was occurring - he would have had a decrease in RPM and manifold pressure. If he caught it too late and applied carburetor heat (heated air directed from baffles around the exhaust manifold into the carburetor intake), it may have killed the engine depending on how much ice was blocking the venturi and how much power he had already lost prior to applying it.

The fact of the matter is that I'm sure the kid realized that he was going down, and turned sharply to avoid heading into the area with people, however doing so bled away what little airspeed he had left, and he likly entered a spin after stalling in the turn. Had he been able to keep the airplane flying long enough to get the wheels on the ground he could have had it stopped within 150 feet or so. I don't have any knowledge of the site, so I'm not sure if that was even possible. Fortunately his was the only fatality in this tragic accident. It could have been worse.

As a flight instructor of almost 15 years, I have seen students solo after 10 hours, and those that have soloed after 30 hours. There is no magical number of hours that entitles a student to take the controls alone. It is based on maturity, decision making ability, and common sense. The age of the individual doesn't really matter (within reason). Some solo at 16, some at 60. Are there 16 year old kids out there who are mature enough to fly - YES. I've had 40 year olds who I openly told to give up the dream due to their inability to follow instructions. I absolutely will not solo anyone who does not fully understand the seriousness of flying. I require all of my students to perform spin recovery, slow flight maneuvers, and emergency procedures before soloing. Spins are not a required maneuver here in the states, but I think they should be. I'm not sure what the regulations are in Great Britain or elsewhere - unfortunately I don't believe they are required to be taught other that classroom instruction.

-Keep the blue side up.

PBNA-Boosher
07-23-2006, 06:36 PM
A salute to a brave kid. He held on a bit longer and saved lives that way, rather than just giving up.

JG7_Rall
07-23-2006, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
A salute to a brave kid. He held on a bit longer and saved lives that way, rather than just giving up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Kinda like how you hang onto that gallon of Eddy's Ice Cream longer than most would?



Couldn't resist.


Salute to a very brave young man. May he rest in peace.

Taylortony
07-23-2006, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DHC2Pilot:
Spins are not a required maneuver here in the states, but I think they should be. I'm not sure what the regulations are in Great Britain or elsewhere - unfortunately I don't believe they are required to be taught other that classroom instruction.

-Keep the blue side up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could not agree more ,infact that is more or less what I said, Spins are no longer required to be taught in the UK but most schools ( we do) still teach them or at least give them the experience so they can understand what is happening and how to get out of the situation..

As for the Hero part, a lot of comment has gone on about this, one thing I would say is it will give some comfort to the family if they believe although he died needlesly, he died bravely trying to avoid anyone else getting injured...

hunhunter-texas
07-24-2006, 06:45 AM
Why do people who know nothing about flying, or the incident involved, insist on making stupid comments about it?? If you are trying to piece it together from the quoted witness statement you never will, so you might as well give up and leave it to the experts.

It was simply a desperately sad accident and as a Father myself, my thoughts are with his heart broken parents.

System-M-
07-24-2006, 07:05 AM
Here Here HunHunter

I just went about saying what you did in a long winded manner.

I simple respects go out to him is what i like to see rather than the whole analysing what happened with no real thought that someone died.

rnzoli
07-24-2006, 07:07 AM
hunhunter-texas - finally someone with a sense... for any loving parent, the death of a child is the worst thing that can happen, the collapse of the whole world cannot compare, and labelling him a hero makes ABSOLUTELY no difference to parents, because to them, first and foremost, he was their son, being a hero or not is so irrelevant at this point...

HayateAce
07-24-2006, 09:42 AM
Pretty easy solution to these low-level engine failure crashes: Emergency parachute deployed by explosive bolts. Flip a cover and press a button and you plop down or in the worst case scenerio your suicidal plunge is at least buffered somewhat. Occupant survivability numbers would soar.

1 - In the 1950s seatbelts were impractical and would add extra cost to automobiles

2 - In the 1980s airbags were impractical and would add extra cost to automobiles

PikeBishop
07-24-2006, 12:03 PM
Dear All,
I would have replied sooner had I realized what this story was about. The fact is we know the family of this boy quite well and in fact we are going to the funeral next monday.
His older brother used to play football and was in the same team as my son. His family would come to 5-a-side tornaments and he would be there. Even at that young age he was a very serious lad, so I suspect that he knew he had a problem and tried to solve it the best way he knew how. I suppose the fact that this event has been worthy of mention in this forum would be of some comfort to the family even though some statements are a little harsh. They are a really nice family who supported us when our daughter died of Leukaemia 4 years ago so we will be there supporting them.
Best regards,
SLP

hunhunter-texas
07-24-2006, 05:14 PM
SLP,
I'm so sorry the lad was known to you, but more so for the loss of your Daughter.

Please disregard the harsher statements made in this thread. There is something about the internet that makes everyone an amatuer crash investigator.

Whilst I do not know the cause, I have heard from another pilot what happened. I also know about the influencing circumstances but wont state them here for obvious reasons. I dont think any one individual can be blamed for the accident, it was just another chain of events and circumstances which led to a tragic outcome.

That said, I do think changes will be made as a result of this accident and if those changes make flying safer, then Sam will at least have left aviation with something positive to remember him by.

This accident has really shaken up a lot of UK pilots. Many of the ones I have spoken to are deeply upset and it really has hit hard. General Aviation is a small community in the UK and each time something like this happens, it has an effect. But when it is someone so young who is realising his dreams it really makes people stop and think. I for one will be just a little more careful next time I fly.

Taylortony
07-24-2006, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hunhunter-texas:
SLP,
I'm so sorry the lad was known to you, but more so for the loss of your Daughter.

Please disregard the harsher statements made in this thread. There is something about the internet that makes everyone an amatuer crash investigator.

Whilst I do not know the cause, I have heard from another pilot what happened. I also know about the influencing circumstances but wont state them here for obvious reasons. I dont think any one individual can be blamed for the accident, it was just another chain of events and circumstances which led to a tragic outcome.

That said, I do think changes will be made as a result of this accident and if those changes make flying safer, then Sam will at least have left aviation with something positive to remember him by.

This accident has really shaken up a lot of UK pilots. Many of the ones I have spoken to are deeply upset and it really has hit hard. General Aviation is a small community in the UK and each time something like this happens, it has an effect. But when it is someone so young who is realising his dreams it really makes people stop and think. I for one will be just a little more careful next time I fly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agreed, We are a small community in the Light Aviation business and as said we will learn from these things, when something like this happens we all feel it. It small comfort I know for his family and friends..... But Please give them my deepest respects and heartfelt wishes for their tragic loss.

I know if it happened here we would be distraught, A close friend of mine, a Copilot for DHL who carried out his last airtest with me (and made me fly the test and land the damn thing afterwards, so I suppose I was his last student) was killed 3 days afterwards at the entrance to the Airport we both work from some 3 weeks ago... I am still coming to terms with that, He was pursuing his dream, but for someone such as Sam to lose his life at such a young age is heartbreaking.


SLP I would ask that you do not mention the site here to them as some of the stupid calous remarks made by individuals would simply break their hearts.
I do hope that one thing that comes out of all of this and your post is some of the people in here will have more sense in future as to what they say. before they engage their mouths.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

LStarosta
07-24-2006, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Pretty easy solution to these low-level engine failure crashes: Emergency parachute deployed by explosive bolts. Flip a cover and press a button and you plop down or in the worst case scenerio your suicidal plunge is at least buffered somewhat. Occupant survivability numbers would soar.

1 - In the 1950s seatbelts were impractical and would add extra cost to automobiles

2 - In the 1980s airbags were impractical and would add extra cost to automobiles </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An aircraft company called Cirrus currently equips its line of single engine piston light general aviation aircraft with aircraft parachutes as a standard.

joeap
07-25-2006, 07:37 AM
SLP, very sorry for your loss and that of the family of the young lad. All my prayers for their strength at this time.

I would hope some of those who made harsh comments would have the guts to apologise. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif