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View Full Version : 'Suspension of disbelief': What's your '46 history rewrite?



Flying_Nutcase
10-19-2006, 12:26 AM
Bazzaar mentioned the problem of suspension of belief in terms of maybe mentally and emotionally accepting the '46 add on as 'playable'.

So to help those who are having trouble getting interested in that side of the upcoming DVD:

What's your scenario that allows Germany to hold on into '46 and maybe beyond?

EDIT: Thanks Chuck_Older. Yes Suspension of DISbelief. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

fighter_966
10-19-2006, 12:37 AM
In europe if Ardennes attack would have successeeded, in Eastern front Russian advance
miracously halts, In Africa Rommel beats **** out of Allied forces an advances to Caucasus then..

BBB_Hyperion
10-19-2006, 12:52 AM
Oil was most important to continue the war . Moving carbon synthesis plants to underground would surely increased production from coal to oil as they would have been safe from bombings but wasnt nearly sufficient enough about 50 % of all oil needs was covered from coal synthesis. The fall of the rumanian oil fields was the last nail to the coffin . So only a 2nd branch of oil production like carbon synthesis from plants or other biomaterials could have producted enough oil to keep up with the needs .

Further spain would have officaly entered the war on german side when oil delivery could be secured. Why this could be important Gibraltar for example .)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-------------------
High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

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stathem
10-19-2006, 02:10 AM
There was a big ol' thread running on SimHq about this; I'll just repost what I wrote there.

In alternative history re-writes, one should make the smallest and most plausible change neccesary - eg what if Churchill had been killed by the car in NY in 1938 instead of only injured (that's not my answer btw)

For the 46-

Bear in mind that in order for the Germans to have had the impetus to create things like the Lerche and the X-4, they must have at some point being subjected to an overwhelming strategic air attack from the west.

So I have it :

Roosevelt dies 6 months early. Truman takes over, and listens to what Churchill has to say before he goes to Yalta.

At Yalta they tell Joe, "Oi Joe, No, keep your hands off Eastern Europe"

Joe replies "You want it, I'll fight you for it"

Harry and Winnie take fright and negotiate a separate peace in return for Holland and Norway, hoping that the Germans and the Russians will wear each other out and they can walk in at a later date (with Nukes in the back pocket) and sort it all out once they've dealt with Japan.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Akronnick
10-19-2006, 02:29 AM
On June 5, 1944 Eisenhower decides that weather conditions are too severe to commence Operation Overlord on June 6, and delays D-Day until early July. During the delay German Intelligence discovers the 3rd Army ruse and Hitler releases the Panzer divisions that were held in reserve at Calais on D-Day. Because of this, the Germans throw the Allied Invasion back into the Sea. The Western front is closed down for at least three years preventing US and UK ground forces from conducting operations until 1947 or 1948, but not halting Strategic Air operations from England.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---Loose nut removed from cockpit, ship OK

stathem
10-19-2006, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Akronnick:
On June 5, 1944 Eisenhower decides that weather conditions are too severe to commence Operation Overlord on June 6, and delays D-Day until early July. During the delay German Intelligence discovers the 3rd Army ruse and Hitler releases the Panzer divisions that were held in reserve at Calais on D-Day. Because of this, the Germans throw the Allied Invasion back into the Sea. The Western front is closed down for at least three years preventing US and UK ground forces from conducting operations until 1947 or 1948, but not halting Strategic Air operations from England.

Ahm that's good and plausible, but one of the dev shots of the '46 add-on specifically shows a part of Germany 'with the lights on, no blackout because no threat of bombing'. Luthier made a specific point about it.

The Western allies just aren't present in the '46 add-on. (otherwise their '46 planes would have had to modelled?)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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bazzaah2
10-19-2006, 02:43 AM
I like Stathem's idea.

Otherwise, something like very limited Allied success in Italy AND the outright failure on D-Day, the avoidance - somehow! - of a major catastrophe during Bagration, the introduction of a new code machine that Ultra cannot break for a year or so. And the 262 coming in say 6 months earlier than it actually did and in greater numbers. And critically illness for Hitler that takes him out of the picture, perhaps leading to an uneasy peace with the Western Allies and the Allies using the Germans to fight a war by proxy with the Soviets, following the collapse in relations after the failure of D-day. Something like that.

Mind you, still not sure how the Germans are going to make up for the horrendous losses that they had incurred on the Eastern front prior to all that.

But that would allow the Germans a good few years to get some of the 46 stuff flyable.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Chuck_Older
10-19-2006, 05:34 AM
It's "Suspension of disbeleif". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Suspension of beleif" means that you are being kept FROM beleiving something, while "Suspension of DISbeleif" means that something is beleivable enough to keep you from doubting it<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Low_Flyer_MkVb
10-19-2006, 05:46 AM
"Suspension of beleif" means that you are being kept FROM beleiving something..."

Just about sums up the whole Luftwaffe '46 thang to me. My two BoB's worth.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Fox_3
10-19-2006, 05:50 AM
I'll be using the Luftwaffe 1946 background from the comic books by Antarctic Press.

June 13, 1944 the skies above Normandy, France

General Eisenhower flies above the D-Day beaches to view the ground situation himself. Flying in a two-seater Mustang P-51, Ike feels safe due to Allied air superiority. In this altered history, a Me-262 Jabo (the German nickname for fighter-bombers) ordered to harass the landing beaches with bombs, stumbles across Ike's P-51 and shoots it down. In an instant, the entire command structure for the Allies is upset.

Following the agreement reached when Eisenhower was made the commander of SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Force), Field Marshall Montgomery is named as Ike's replacement. The ramifications are both drastic and immediate.



June - September 1945, Normandy, France

Seeking to redeem his inexcusable failure to seize Caen on D-Day, Monty directs the majority of supplies and support to the Northern flank of the Normandy beachhead, running headlong into the 21st Panzer Division and the SS Panzer Corps, thereby losing thousands of men in a battle of attrition through difficult terrain. Without the Southern breakout by General Hodges, which released the 3rd Army under Patton to strike into France and encircle the German defenders in the Falaise Pocket, the struggle to breakout of Normandy lasts into September. When the American forces finally get the supplies and support for the breakout, the Germans fall back to prepared positions, bitterly contesting each yard of ground. The French and American commanders are held in check by Montgomery so they won't outrun his supply plans.

Bitterly jealous of General George Patton, Montgomery refuses him any command in the European Theater. Patton returns to the US, assigned to train new divisions for the invasion of Japan. Without Patton's risk taking and constant battling for supplies, the US Army is unable to make the sweeping drive into France that allowed the Allies to reach the Rhine by the end of 1944.

Frustrated by his inability to break out of Normandy, Monty demands more and more air support for his ground forces. Instead of shifting the heavy bombers to strike the transportation nets and oil manufacturing systems of the Reich, Allied Air Command is increasingly committed to daylight carpet bombing in support of tactical advances. The relief from the destruction caused by daylight precision bombing allows Albert Speer, Reich Minister for Production, to increase fuel and armaments production, and to rush revolutionary new weapons into production for the Luftwaffe. When the Allied Air Commanders finally regain control over mission selection in September, it is too late, the Luftwaffe is once again able to challenge the Allies in the air. Without the overwhelming air superiority that the Allies historically enjoyed, their advance through France and the Low Countries is tragically slow, and casualties mount rapidly.

June, Vitebsk, USSR

But what of the Eastern Front? As Stalin and his Marshals had feared, the lack of an emergency threat in the West allowed the Germans to focus their resources on the East. Barely holding an advantage over the Luftwaffe as it was, the introduction of jet aircraft and new long range bombers on the Eastern Front returns air superiority to the Luftwaffe. Coupled with the earlier introduction of new tanks and anti-tank weapons from Speer's underground factories, the Soviet Summer Offensive of June 1944 stalls at Minsk, while German counterattacks in the south reclaim Odessa and much of the southern Ukraine. This allows Bulgaria, Rumania, and Hungary to remain in the Axis, adding their raw materials, production capacity, and manpower to the forces stopping the Soviets. The war drags on, the toll of death and destruction growing ever greater.

North Atlantic, Autumn 1944

The check in the Allied bombing campaign and the lack of progress on the ground in France allowed the German Navy to introduce the Type XXI U-Boat in enough numbers to make a difference. Although the Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) forces of the Allied Navies are still vastly superior, and they continue to sink the U-Boats at a deadly rate, enough supply ships are lost that America's production capacity can't be brought to bear quickly enough in Europe. The Allied armies are held back by supply shortages. The Germans, with shorter supply lines, and less harassment from the air, are able to contest every yard of ground.

What of the Manhattan Project and the atom bomb? While that topic will be addressed more fully in a special booklet, some of the things that went right for the Allied scientists go wrong, delaying the program by months. These decisive weapons end the war in 1946, but not before the additional air battles that our story is based on.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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bazzaah2
10-19-2006, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
It's "Suspension of disbeleif". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Suspension of beleif" means that you are being kept FROM beleiving something, while "Suspension of DISbeleif" means that something is beleivable enough to keep you from doubting it

I would just like to say that I did originally refer to suspension of disbelief. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There are plenty of times when I would like to suspend my belief but this isn't one of them.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be
anything up to eight hundred yards long.

p-11.cAce
10-19-2006, 06:12 AM
I wonder if these same people have trouble watching a Star Wars movie, enjoying a fantasy novel, or listening to their childrens stories? This is a GAME..it's supposed to be FUN...how realistic is it that we just hit a single button to start some of the most complex piston engines ever devised? Or that most people are successfully flying 2000hp fighters after just a few minutes stick time? Or that we fly in a world without wind, realistic turbulence, or dynamic weather? Our radios work perfectly regardless of altitude, frequency, or distance. I mean the list can (and often does) go on and on - at some point you just have to accept that some things are not realistic but they sure are fun! I personally love to fly the He-162 offline and am looking fwd the the '46 add on - realistic or not.

Flying_Nutcase
10-19-2006, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by bazzaah2:
I would just like to say that I did originally refer to suspension of disbelief. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There are plenty of times when I would like to suspend my belief but this isn't one of them.

Umm, err, yeah: Corrected!

@ scenerio posters: Interesting possibilities. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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csThor
10-19-2006, 06:21 AM
Still working on a modified timeline for 1946, but I did start in 1943 already.

By early May 1943 the german front commanders are being presented with the plans for Operation "Citadel". Several of them oppose the idea pointing at the glaring problems of the Wehrmacht and the sorry state of the german armored divisions. Since Hitler doesn't decide on anything Manstein - after returning to the Front - writes a longer expos?? outlining his problems with "Citadel" and an alternative strategy for the upcoming years. He sends one of his adjutants to Rastenburg to present the OKW with his ideas, but on the return flight the aircraft is forced down due to engine problems in the middle of partisan territory. Crew and passengers manage to reach german lines, but the updated plans for "Citadel" (which the Adjutant had been ordered to hand over to von Manstein) fall into soviet hands.
Hitler hears of this, throws the worst temper-tantrum ever and (after much discussion and argueing) decides to abandon "Citadel". He suffers a serious bout of disappointment and the stress damages his mental state. Hitler becomes manic-depressive.

Meanwhile the Eastern Front commanders plan Operation "Rhine Daughter" and create a massively fortified defensive line on the western bank of river Dniepr. Hitler approves of this plan and so the year of 1943 ends with the german Eastern Front safely in the fortifications of the Ostwall.
With time Hitler's mental state becomes worse, he hardly takes part in any decisions anymore. Goebbels and Bormann take over the political leadership while the armed forces no longer suffer from Hitler's amateurish meddling.
In 1944 the Allied invasion fails (how and for what reasons I have not lined out, yet), but they keep on bombing Germany with their strategic air forces well into 1945. They abort their attacks when Germany begins fielding more and more jet-powered fighters, radar guided AAA and the new SAM missiles (e.g. Rheinmetall-Borsig "Rheintochter"). Only in the Atlantic german submarines still attack allied shipping.

I'm not much further than early July 1943 so the later stages aren't that detailed.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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bazzaah2
10-19-2006, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
I wonder if these same people have trouble watching a Star Wars movie, enjoying a fantasy novel, or listening to their childrens stories? This is a GAME..it's supposed to be FUN...how realistic is it that we just hit a single button to start some of the most complex piston engines ever devised? Or that most people are successfully flying 2000hp fighters after just a few minutes stick time? Or that we fly in a world without wind, realistic turbulence, or dynamic weather? Our radios work perfectly regardless of altitude, frequency, or distance. I mean the list can (and often does) go on and on - at some point you just have to accept that some things are not realistic but they sure are fun! I personally love to fly the He-162 offline and am looking fwd the the '46 add on - realistic or not.

I know what you mean. I'm quite happy to play stuff like X3 and stuff like that and don't look for much realism there but for some reason this 46 doesn't quite work for me. But I'm sure plenty of people will enjoy it and I hope it's a success for Oleg. But really it's getting to the point with flight sims in general that they start to look like games to me and what I really want to do is do now is some RL flying, even if it's just a Cessna.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be
anything up to eight hundred yards long.

Chuck_Older
10-19-2006, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by bazzaah2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
It's "Suspension of disbeleif". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Suspension of beleif" means that you are being kept FROM beleiving something, while "Suspension of DISbeleif" means that something is beleivable enough to keep you from doubting it

I would just like to say that I did originally refer to suspension of disbelief. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There are plenty of times when I would like to suspend my belief but this isn't one of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't name the thread, did you?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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F6_Ace
10-19-2006, 02:23 PM
1946: Nazi scientists transplant living tissue onto a recently excavated T. Rex skeleton and send it forward it time, through the use of synthetic Mobil 1, to make friends with an army of Cybernetic organisms made almost extinct by a meterorite impact on Skynet in 2140 (as they have a lot on common)

They come back through the time portal, eliminate Michael Bien's parents then march on New York, defeating the US within seconds by broadcasting a new version of 'War of the Worlds' scaring the military to death.

They then go on to create a capitalistic, brutal regime where anyone called Henry is brutally tortured on national game shows. And, where anyone called Henrietta is worshipped whilst being horsewhipped.

"Their" powercells run out in 2139, and so, as the Pink Floyd album goes, the cycle repeats.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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ruby_monkey
10-19-2006, 04:50 PM
What is 'disbeleif', Precious?

Haigotron
10-19-2006, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
1946: Nazi scientists transplant living tissue onto a recently excavated T. Rex skeleton and send it forward it time, through the use of synthetic Mobil 1, to make friends with an army of Cybernetic organisms made almost extinct by a meterorite impact on Skynet in 2140 (as they have a lot on common)

They come back through the time portal, eliminate Michael Bien's parents then march on New York, defeating the US within seconds by broadcasting a new version of 'War of the Worlds' scaring the military to death.

They then go on to create a capitalistic, brutal regime where anyone called Henry is brutally tortured on national game shows. And, where anyone called Henrietta is worshipped whilst being horsewhipped.

"Their" powercells run out in 2139, and so, as the Pink Floyd album goes, the cycle repeats.

Thanks for ruining the end of Jurassic Park...

As for he 46 add on, im all for it, just put it straight in my veins<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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waffen-79
10-19-2006, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
most plausible change neccesary - eg what if Churchill had been killed by the car in NY in 1938 instead of only injured (that's not my answer btw)

You got it in one sentence, for ww2 to continue something should happen that leaves the big man out of the war.

It's nothing to do with separate ops that succeded or failed it all comes to getting rid of Winston Churchill

yeah that's right P-51 didn't win teh war, the big man, espionage and sheer numbers ended it by apr'45. be sure!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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