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F19_Olli72
10-23-2004, 03:49 AM
Ive been practicing carrier takoffs all morning...(the early corsair in the single missions) but no matter how much i try i cannot take off with napalm and droptanks..even on a moving carrier (ive made it with a single droptank though). Ive watched the training track over and over to see what i can do to avoid crashing...but i still get a watery grave every time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif Anyone got some tips? Heres what i do:

1. Open canopy
2. Raise seat
3. Start engine
4. Flaps
5. Set mix to rich
6. Trim
7. Remove breaks and start rolling
8. More trim
9. Roll over the edge and end up dead

I guess carriers will be static in online df servers? In that case it'll be impossible (?!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

(Edit:checklist)

Ruy Horta
10-23-2004, 03:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
1. Open canopy
2. Raise seat
3. Start engine
4. Set mix to rich
5. Trim
6. Remove breaks and start rolling
7. More trim
8. Roll over the edge and end up dead
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you go full throttle before releasing the chocks? Maybe close the cockpit to gain a few extra MPH?

Haele
10-23-2004, 04:11 AM
Flaps/full throttle before chocks I've never missed a takeoff. Landing, on the other hand.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

JG54_Arnie
10-23-2004, 04:30 AM
Do you even use flaps? Cant see em in this list.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And do you firewall the throttle before releasing the chocks?

F19_Olli72
10-23-2004, 05:33 AM
Lol yes i do use flaps i just forgot to write it. And yes, i throttle up full power in case that was unclear http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

marmossel
10-23-2004, 05:55 AM
well, obviously you do something wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

here's how it should look like:
1. Release chocks
2. Block chocks
3. Ignite the magnetos
4. Start the engine
5. Pull throtle back to 0
6. Set mix to rich
7. Set propeler pitch to full
8. Set radiator to closed
9. Set trim
10 Wait for your takeoff turn
11. Ask for takeoff clearence
12 Wait for your take off clearence
13. Push throtle to full
14. Start Boost/WEP (if any)
15. Wait for the engine to get to the full throtle parameters (specially RPM's)
16. Release chocks
17. Rudder corrections
18. After you rolled 1/2, 2/3 or even 3/4 from deck's length (depending on your fplas deplying speed), lower flaps to takeoff position - or even to landing position!!!
19. Immediatelly after you left the deck pull up your landing gear and do NOT pull the stick up more than you need to not touch the water (ie DON'T try to climb yet!!!)
20 Gain speed
21 GENTLY pull the stick to start gaining altitude
22 Rise flaps graduatelly after you have enough speed
23 Close Boost/WEP
24 Set radiator to open
25 Set trim
26 Open canopy and take a deep breath of fresh air... you almost wet your pants, but you're airborne!!!

in case of hard take offs (fully loaded plane, short runways) absolutely DO NOT:
1. Take off with open canopy (unlike in RL in which pilots preffered to take off with open canopy to can immediatelly leave the plane in case of crashing as they still had their CV catapults to help them out, you DON'T have them, so forget about open canopy take off with a fully loaded plane as the open canopy generates a LOT of drag)
2. Take off with flaps lowered from the beginning, it will prevent you from gaining speed... just lower them near the end of deck and you'll still have their lift added
3. Brutalize your stick after you left the deck and took the dive... it will just crash you into the water.. learn to control yourself and ONLY pull the stick gentle and enough to just level your plane exactly above the water
4. Forget to immediatelly rise your landing gear... do that and you'll be fish meat!
5. Immediatelly rise your flaps or try to take altitude... wait first to gain some speed, then you can do that

Hope this will help... S!

IV_JG51_Razor
10-23-2004, 07:04 AM
One other thing to remember, is to NOT use your ailerons to raise a wing when going so slow. Always use your rudder.

WOLFMondo
10-23-2004, 07:24 AM
The most I've managed to take off with is 8 HVARs and 3 500lbs bombs but I took of with combat flaps and lowered to takeoff as I left the edge of the carrier and was inches from the water and on the edge of a stall for 5-10 seconds . Also had to get the under carrage up the very second the plane left the deck. I also left the canopy closed and rads closed. I can't see them IRL doing that though. Far to risky.

Is it me or do tiny tims weigh allot more than they look like they should?

mortoma
10-23-2004, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buerebistas:
well, obviously you do something wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

here's how it should look like:
1. Release chocks
2. Block chocks
3. Ignite the magnetos
4. Start the engine
5. Pull throtle back to 0
6. Set mix to rich
7. Set propeler pitch to full
8. Set radiator to closed
9. Set trim
10 Wait for your takeoff turn
11. Ask for takeoff clearence
12 Wait for your take off clearence
13. Push throtle to full
14. Start Boost/WEP (if any)
15. Wait for the engine to get to the full throtle parameters (specially RPM's)
16. Release chocks
17. Rudder corrections
18. After you rolled 1/2, 2/3 or even 3/4 from deck's length (depending on your fplas deplying speed), lower flaps to takeoff position - or even to landing position!!!
19. Immediatelly after you left the deck pull up your landing gear and do NOT pull the stick up more than you need to not touch the water (ie DON'T try to climb yet!!!)
20 Gain speed
21 GENTLY pull the stick to start gaining altitude
22 Rise flaps graduatelly after you have enough speed
23 Close Boost/WEP
24 Set radiator to open
25 Set trim
26 Open canopy and take a deep breath of fresh air... you almost wet your pants, but you're airborne!!!

in case of hard take offs (fully loaded plane, short runways) absolutely DO NOT:
1. Take off with open canopy (unlike in RL in which pilots preffered to take off with open canopy to can immediatelly leave the plane in case of crashing as they still had their CV catapults to help them out, you DON'T have them, so forget about open canopy take off with a fully loaded plane as the open canopy generates a LOT of drag)
2. Take off with flaps lowered from the beginning, it will prevent you from gaining speed... just lower them near the end of deck and you'll still have their lift added
3. Brutalize your stick after you left the deck and took the dive... it will just crash you into the water.. learn to control yourself and ONLY pull the stick gentle and enough to just level your plane exactly above the water
4. Forget to immediatelly rise your landing gear... do that and you'll be fish meat!
5. Immediatelly rise your flaps or try to take altitude... wait first to gain some speed, then you can do that

Hope this will help... S! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Technique sounds ok. But why lower flaps after you start rolling?? Any drag from flaps is insignificant
until at least 45kts/51Mph/83Kph anyway. As a RL
pilot, I've never heard of any anything but lowering flaps before the roll.

Snootles
10-23-2004, 11:03 AM
Hopefully working catapults get added soon.

duffys_tavern
10-23-2004, 11:11 AM
We do need the "cats".

marmossel
10-23-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
Technique sounds ok. But why lower flaps after you start rolling?? Any drag from flaps is insignificant
until at least 45kts/51Mph/83Kph anyway. As a RL
pilot, I've never heard of any anything but lowering flaps before the roll. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do some tests please... note the speed with lowered flaps from the beginning and with flaps lowered near the nd of the deck... and you'll see the difference...

Of course they didn't do something like that in RL, they never risked such takeoffs, they had their working cats for that... but we DON'T, and as this works, well, it's the way we'll use it...

also, from logical point of view, you're not right... do not forget that usually a takeoff from a carrier would mean that carrier is going at full speed and against the wind... making the airflow over its deck having a significat speed... which will result in a greater influence regarding the speed and lift with lowered flaps... add to that aircraft's own relative speed to carrier's deck, and you'll get a more than significant influence...

some math will show that roughly
AC take off real speed = carrier speed + wind speed + AC speed

S!

BSS_Vidar
10-23-2004, 11:49 AM
DF servers: carriers are stationary, Coop servers: carriers are modile.

8 x AP rockets, with two x 2,000lb bombs with no problem

Put the flaps in LANDING configuration.

Don't be affraid to let the plane settle a bit after leaving the deck. Maintain a slightly nose high attitude and suck the gear up once weight-off-wheeles. As you establish two positive rates of climb (Alt & VSI), start realing in the flaps to pick up speed.

Razor's right, use rudder to counter any roll off. Ailerons at slow speeds are more a drag issue at the wing-tips than a control issue. Especialy a heavy loaded plane.

S!

stansdds
10-24-2004, 08:53 AM
In real life, carrier take off was done with canopy open, mixture rich, full down flaps, throttle opened to full, in this condition the tail wheel would sometimes begin to lift off the deck, brakes released, course corrected with right rudder, once you leave the deck do not used the elevators, just retract the gear and accept the fact that you will sink, but you should gain speed fast enough to prevent crashing into the water. Once you have sufficient speed, begin a very gentle climb and slowly retract the flaps. This is how it was done on carriers, it should (if modeled correctly) work in a sim too.

mortoma
10-24-2004, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buerebistas:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
Technique sounds ok. But why lower flaps after you start rolling?? Any drag from flaps is insignificant
until at least 45kts/51Mph/83Kph anyway. As a RL
pilot, I've never heard of any anything but lowering flaps before the roll. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do some tests please... note the speed with lowered flaps from the beginning and with flaps lowered near the nd of the deck... and you'll see the difference...

Of course they didn't do something like that in RL, they never risked such takeoffs, they had their working cats for that... but we DON'T, and as this works, well, it's the way we'll use it...

also, from logical point of view, you're not right... do not forget that usually a takeoff from a carrier would mean that carrier is going at full speed and against the wind... making the airflow over its deck having a significat speed... which will result in a greater influence regarding the speed and lift with lowered flaps... add to that aircraft's own relative speed to carrier's deck, and you'll get a more than significant influence...

some math will show that roughly
AC take off real speed = carrier speed + wind speed + AC speed

S! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How can I do tests if I don't have the game yet?? In any case, I'd never perform your technique in PF since it's not the way they did it in real life. I'll bet I can take off with full ord., ( heaviest load ) when I get the game with flaps down at the start, just like RL. This is a sim, the point is to simulate RL. What you do is too fakey, although it may help. Still not an option for a realistic player.

F19_Olli72
10-24-2004, 01:15 PM
I still havent made it with napalm loadout...if anyone has can you post a track please. Bombs arent that big of a problem but napalm + droptank seems impossible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Fennec_P
10-24-2004, 01:35 PM
I don't have a track, but it is certainly possible with a moving Lex. The lowest I managed was 30km/h. With 70km/h carrier, very easy. Even without wind.

Throttle up with chocks to 110%, then release. Leave the canopy closed, it can't do any good open. Lower flaps to landing just as you near the takeoff, so that they don't drag you during the initial roll. Stick back just before the liftoff, so that you are at the right AOA when you do reach the end of the deck. You should clear the water with a few meters to spare.

You could probably do it with a stationary carrier, if you used thunderstorm weather.

effte
10-24-2004, 01:54 PM
My checklist:

Start engine
Trim
Lock tailwheel
Prop to full RPM
Mixture rich
Flaps takeoff

Let the engine get to maximum power and stay there to settle. Release chocks. Dance on the rudder to track centreline.

Here€s the important part: For a heavy takeoff off an escort carrier, you want to get the thrust aligned with the direction of travel as fast as you can. This means pushing the stick forward to lower the nose!

Then, as you go over the edge of the ship, raise the nose just to the slightly below where you would begin to feel the oncoming stall in level flight.

Do not fiddle with the flaps on the roll. The drag increase is minimal until the very end of the roll due to the slow speeds for most of it and if the flaps don€t extend fully, in the drink you go. Apart from the fact that you wouldn€t ever do that in real life. Even a slightly asymmetrical flap extension could spell disaster. Landing flaps have no significant lift increase over takeoff flaps, but the drag increase is humungous. Stay off those.

There€s also no real rush to get the gear retracted. It won€t retract fast enough for it to matter anyway. Either you are flying by the time it has any effect or you are in the drink already.

Arm_slinger
10-24-2004, 02:25 PM
I take it all this is happening on arriers that are static? In that case i reckon its pretty much near impossible. Imo we need the carriers to move, even if they do just steam about in circles, becasue without the movement of the ship, we arnt going to get a loaded plane off the deck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Fennec_P
10-24-2004, 03:42 PM
Try as I might, I couldn't get the '43 to take off from a static carrier with a droptank and 2 napalm. No matter what I do the flaps just barely get dunked in the water.

If the carrier is moving forward at 10km/h, I can do it, but not when totally stationary.

But I did manage to get the F4U-D to do it. It takes every inch of the flight deck, but you can do it.

Here's a track. You can also see how not to land while carrying napalm.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/corsair.zip

But its all rather academic. If you put the carrier at max speed, you can takeoff quite easily.

If you're in a DF server, I'd wonder why you want to take a drop tank on a plane that has a few hours endurance on internal fuel alone.

BinaryFalcon
10-24-2004, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
In any case, I'd never perform your technique in PF since it's not the way they did it in real life. ... This is a sim, the point is to simulate RL. What you do is too fakey, although it may help. Still not an option for a realistic player. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing fake about it. That sort of thing gets done all the time in real life, especially with airliners (but any aircraft can benefit from it). It's referred to as an "enhanced performance takeoff".

Putting the flaps down prior to the takeoff roll will lessen your acceleration and increase the takeoff run.

However, even one 'notch' of flaps will greatly increase the available lift that a wing generates.

So the solution in very tight strips is to make most of the takeoff run with flaps raised and then once you are at speed (or nearly so) the first flaps setting is selected.

You get the best of both worlds at that point, as you didn't have the drag penalty on acceleration, but you get the lift bonus just prior to rotation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'll bet I can take off with full ord., ( heaviest load ) when I get the game with flaps down at the start, just like RL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll take that bet. Post tracks of your attempts, please. It'll be quite amusing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Based on my own attempts, I feel it's fairly safe to say that a fully loaded Corsair simply can't be taken off from a DF (unmoving) carrier.

I believe I've come close a few times, but with two Tiny Tims and eight AP HVARS and full fuel, it's just not happening in the space you're given. Not without about another 20-30kts of airspeed, IMO.

effte
10-25-2004, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BinaryFalcon:
There's nothing fake about it. That sort of thing gets done all the time in real life, especially with airliners (but any aircraft can benefit from it). It's referred to as an "enhanced performance takeoff".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I normally think you€re one of the people to be believed in in these forums, that'll take a good, solid reference with types specified to avoid being dismissed as bravo smelly stuff by yours truly. You turn off the packs for improved takeoff performance at times, but that's something completely different.

In fact, many airliners will have horns go off in the cockpit if you advance the throttles to take-off power without the flaps being in their take-off setting.

Check this link (http://www.faatest.com/books/FLT/Chapter8/ShortFieldTakeoffandClimb.htm), especially the part saying "There is no significant advantage to extending flaps just prior to liftoff". The link is quoting the FAA Flight Training Handbook, by the way. In the updated Airplane Flying Handbook (http://av-info.faa.gov/data/traininghandbook/faa-h-8083-3a-3of7.pdf), the wording is €œIf the airplane manufacturer recommends the use of flaps, they should be extended the proper amount before starting the takeoff roll.€

On the other hand, John Deakin (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182089-1.html), which is probably as close to a definitive authority as you will find, opposes this and considers it a useful technique in extreme circumstances - provided you can extend the flaps in an instant. The latter does not apply to the aircraft we're dealing with in PF.

If you want to depart reality completely, I€d suggest removing and putting the blocks on repeatedly before takeoff. That€ll move your aircraft back slightly each time your repeat the cycle. Get the tail wheel on the edge of the carrier. That€s certain to do you more good than any amount of messing with the flaps. Wheee, insta-pushback on a slider.

Regards,
Fred

Slick750
10-25-2004, 10:33 AM
Prop pitch?

reisen52
10-25-2004, 11:04 AM
SOP Canopy Open, Full Power, Full Flaps, rudder trimmed to right with full deflection of pedal.


http://www.avhistory.org/bear257Images/f4to1.jpg

Based on load & distance to target fuel load was reduced to allow maximum ordnance. You can check the gallons onboard in this chart as an example.

It also lists range & takeoff run info. Its quite clear there is no way it will get off a stopped carrier except for a CVN if it can start from the ramp.

There is a reason they turned into the wind for a launch. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.avhistory.org/bear257Images/f4lo.jpg

Zeke

BinaryFalcon
10-25-2004, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While I normally think you€re one of the people to be believed in in these forums, that'll take a good, solid reference with types specified to avoid being dismissed as bravo smelly stuff by yours truly. You turn off the packs for improved takeoff performance at times, but that's something completely different.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was something covered in my dispatch training as a possibility. We didn't cover it too in depth, as it was suggested that it's not very much of an "official" method, but it does get used. I got the impression that it happens in much the same way that a slightly overweight flight suddenly ends up with 20 "children" on the W&B manifest.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In fact, many airliners will have horns go off in the cockpit if you advance the throttles to take-off power without the flaps being in their take-off setting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They will, yes, but horns can be silenced and in either case they won't stop you from actually doing it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On the other hand, John Deakin, which is probably as close to a definitive authority as you will find, opposes this and considers it a useful technique in extreme circumstances - provided you can extend the flaps in an instant. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With respect to airliners, you see the biggest "jump" in lifting capability going from flaps 0 (raised) to flaps 1 (1 degree). IIRC, the change in lift can be a shockingly large amount, in some cases almost double. Selecting that amount of flaps is almost instant, so the benefit can be quite great.

However, for general safety's sake, you'd only be using the method when you really, really needed to.

The FAA's main objection to the practice and advice to set flaps before beginning the roll is likely based in the fear that:

1. You'll just forget the flaps, which depending on the plane and conditions could be very bad. or,

2. You'll screw up and flip the gear lever instead, and gear up the plane while it is still on the ground (or partially so).

As with many things in life when people get involved, there's the "official, rules way" of doing it, and then there's "how it really happens."

I'm not in any way suggesting that's a good thing. However, the reality of the situation is that sometimes things get done contrary to advised methods simply because it's easier or more effective (unless something goes wrong).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The latter does not apply to the aircraft we're dealing with in PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree in general. But again, the biggest benefit will be from the first few degrees (initial setting), which does come in rather quickly. When you're right on the edge, every little bit can help, and that extra 3 kts of acceleration combined with the sudden 4 kts of reduced stall speed adds up to a 7 kt difference overall, which could be the difference between flying and swimming.

But again, we're running on razor thin margins to begin with.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you want to depart reality completely, I€d suggest removing and putting the blocks on repeatedly before takeoff. That€ll move your aircraft back slightly each time your repeat the cycle. Get the tail wheel on the edge of the carrier. That€s certain to do you more good than any amount of messing with the flaps. Wheee, insta-pushback on a slider. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hadn't thought of that one, but it sure beats my taxi-back method (which didn't help much with a full load anyway).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Regards, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

effte
10-26-2004, 02:59 AM
Ah, dispatch? We€re in the same field then these days, part of my work is creating load sheets. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, and on a serious note, if taking off overweight, pulling C/Bs to silence configuration warnings, taking off overweight for the field length and using non-standard procedures for flap extension is considered viable options, it sounds like an operation that is way, way out of line and will eventually end up having the authorities knocking at the door if lucky and the accident investigation board if unlycky. See the recent Beech 1900 accident. I€d make sure not to be involved in any way and possibly drop a line to the local authorities suggesting a check. Procedural/organisational drift is a good way to get people killed.

As for the effects of flaps, this NACA document (http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1949/naca-report-938/naca-report-938.pdf) shows the increase in maximum lift coefficient with flap deflection for plain and split flaps, as found on most of the aircraft we fly in this simulation. As you can see, the increase is basically linear all the way from zero deflection up to 40-60 degrees. This means your available lift would increase linearly with flap deflection all the way up to the take-off setting, with no major gain made in the first few degrees.

When talking about airliners which are usually equipped with Fowler flaps, the best reference I found online is this NACA report (http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1936/naca-report-534/naca-report-534.pdf). It is not as clear as most of the diagrams do not show the CL curves for retracted flaps, but it is still apparent that there is no major drop in increase of lift coefficient with flap extension beyond the initial extension.

The source of the confusion might be that the L/D ratio typically increases more in the early stages of flap extension. This is interesting as far as glide distance and climbout angle goes, but completely irrelevant in the carrier takeoff case. In the latter situation, maximum lift coefficient is the one parameter we are interested in.

There is also the 727 which, IIRC, had a significant performance benefit at high speeds if you extended a degree of LE flaps. This could be done through clever manipulation of the aircraft systems (i e C/B pulling).

Regards,
Fred

triggerhappyfin
10-26-2004, 05:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buerebistas:
well, obviously you do something wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

here's how it should look like:
1. Release chocks
2. Block chocks
3. Ignite the magnetos
4. Start the engine
5. Pull throtle back to 0
6. Set mix to rich
7. Set propeler pitch to full
8. Set radiator to closed
9. Set trim
10 Wait for your takeoff turn
11. Ask for takeoff clearence
12 Wait for your take off clearence
13. Push throtle to full
14. Start Boost/WEP (if any)
15. Wait for the engine to get to the full throtle parameters (specially RPM's)
16. Release chocks
17. Rudder corrections
18. After you rolled 1/2, 2/3 or even 3/4 from deck's length (depending on your fplas deplying speed), lower flaps to takeoff position - or even to landing position!!!
19. Immediatelly after you left the deck pull up your landing gear and do NOT pull the stick up more than you need to not touch the water (ie DON'T try to climb yet!!!)
20 Gain speed
21 GENTLY pull the stick to start gaining altitude
22 Rise flaps graduatelly after you have enough speed
23 Close Boost/WEP
24 Set radiator to open
25 Set trim
26 Open canopy and take a deep breath of fresh air... you almost wet your pants, but you're airborne!!!

in case of hard take offs (fully loaded plane, short runways) absolutely DO NOT:
1. Take off with open canopy (unlike in RL in which pilots preffered to take off with open canopy to can immediatelly leave the plane in case of crashing as they still had their CV catapults to help them out, you DON'T have them, so forget about open canopy take off with a fully loaded plane as the open canopy generates a LOT of drag)
2. Take off with flaps lowered from the beginning, it will prevent you from gaining speed... just lower them near the end of deck and you'll still have their lift added
3. Brutalize your stick after you left the deck and took the dive... it will just crash you into the water.. learn to control yourself and ONLY pull the stick gentle and enough to just level your plane exactly above the water
4. Forget to immediatelly rise your landing gear... do that and you'll be fish meat!
5. Immediatelly rise your flaps or try to take altitude... wait first to gain some speed, then you can do that

Hope this will help... S! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Technique sounds ok. But why lower flaps after you start rolling?? Any drag from flaps is insignificant
until at least 45kts/51Mph/83Kph anyway. As a RL
pilot, I've never heard of any anything but lowering flaps before the roll. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Points 19-22 are the most important...Trousers wet? allways after carrier take-offs..due to drag a$$ in water so long http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

This kind of discussions must be the best kind of respons for Oleg and his team..They´ve managed to do it as tricky as it should be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Take-offs and landings was very risky on carriers during the war..Many pilots lost because of it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Think of a server with deathkick enabled.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Tricky it was..tricky it should be!

Otherwise MS has released some kind of PFpos.
Bet the landing and take-offs in that POS will run like on tracks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif.

BinaryFalcon
10-26-2004, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by effte:
Ah, dispatch? We€re in the same field then these days, part of my work is creating load sheets. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I didn't actually get the cert though. Was close, but after going through all of the classes for it I decided it wasn't something I really wanted to do, and I didn't really have the $300 for the testing fees (which was all I had left) at the time either. Looking back on it I kind of wish I'd found a way to pick it up anyway, just in case, but I'd still be tied to an airline for a job, and I figure if I'm going to be I'd rather actually be flying for one.

As it is, I'm currently waiting on an ATC assignment from the FAA, that is if they ever get around to actually hiring all of those controllers they badly need.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
However, and on a serious note, if taking off overweight, pulling C/Bs to silence configuration warnings, taking off overweight for the field length and using non-standard procedures for flap extension is considered viable options, it sounds like an operation that is way, way out of line and will eventually end up having the authorities knocking at the door if lucky and the accident investigation board if unlycky. See the recent Beech 1900 accident. I€d make sure not to be involved in any way and possibly drop a line to the local authorities suggesting a check. Procedural/organisational drift is a good way to get people killed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely, and I didn't mean to suggest that I've actually seen those things done in a company I worked for. It was something that was presented to us in training as one of those things that you'll likely encounter at some point. Of course I was taught by an old guy who had been through an entire career, so he'd seen his share of "tricks". As for the W&B issue, my personal feelings are that people much smarter than I am came up with the limitations on the aircraft, and while - under certain conditions you'll probably be okay if you're slightly overweight - being out of balance will most probably kill you, even if you're well under weight. In either case, I'm not going to intentially load an aircraft beyond either limit.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
There is also the 727 which, IIRC, had a significant performance benefit at high speeds if you extended a degree of LE flaps. This could be done through clever manipulation of the aircraft systems (i e C/B pulling).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The good old "negative 1 flaps" 'setting' IIRC. I remember that being mentioned, and also brought up in one of my flight safety classes as well, I think. Worked great provided everything went well, but again was fairly stupid and risky, especially when the unaware FO notices the breaker in flight and resets it. Not good.

Although to the idea's credit, I seem to remember something about later models or aircraft getting an official setting from the manufacturer that accomplished the same thing without the risk of C/B pulling.

I guess some "stupid pilot tricks" aren't always entirely stupid. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

effte
10-26-2004, 09:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BinaryFalcon:
I agree completely, and I didn't mean to suggest that I've actually seen those things done in a company I worked for. It was something that was presented to us in training as one of those things that you'll likely encounter at some point. Of course I was taught by an old guy who had been through an entire career, so he'd seen his share of "tricks". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, yeah, this business is plagued with hangar tales. Everyone knows someone who has done something, or who knew that this is the way it is... it's all good fun, until someone loses an eye!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I guess some "stupid pilot tricks" aren't always _entirely_ stupid. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on who's doing them.

Me: It is an improvement of existing technique.
Someone else: He's a god**** moron which is going to get himself killed one of these days.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously, if you are going to do something which is non-standard, you should always know what you are doing... to the point of knowing exactly why it is not standard procedure. If not, you are way out on thin ice.

Cheers,
Fred