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View Full Version : Pe vs 110 vs Mosquito vs Beau vs A20



tigertalon
05-02-2006, 07:00 AM
So, how's it?

Since I haven't yet purchased Pe addon, I'd like to invite all who did to this discussion. So which twing is teh new best now for different roles?

I am especially interested in Pe3/Pe3bis versions, what armament/loadout/ammocount do they have, what speed, maneouverability compared to other comparable twins in sim (Mossie, 110, Beau, A20...). Which of these twins would you take for:

Dueling 1v1 versus other twins?
Dogfighting 12v12 versus other twins?
CAS versus lightly armoured targets?
CAS versus tanks?
Bomber interception?
Which one do you think has a highes survival probability when jumped by single engined fighters?

StG2_Schlachter
05-02-2006, 07:23 AM
The 110 surely is the most versatile a/c.
It is well amored and has a large variety of loadouts. It has a reargunner and is relatively fast.

You can do everything of the above mentioned tasks with it with a good degree of success.

The Mossie is fast but lacks armor and loadouts options. Yet it has powerful guns. BnZ on other twins and bomber interception can be done.

The Pe-2 is mostly a groundpounder. It is quite sensitive to enemy fire and has a rather weak frontal armament. It stalls if you pull it into narrow turns. The wing profile doesn't allow high AoAs. In the sim, it can only carry bombs.

The Pe-3 has slats, which allows tighter turns.
The armament is quite potent and it is fast, too. The problem of weak armor remains. Bomber interception is the forte of this aircraft.

Just my 2 euro-cents http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG53Frankyboy
05-02-2006, 07:43 AM
an important tactical point id the huge difference in max Dive speed between the Pe3 (and sure the Pe2) and the others !

the Pe-3 breaks up at around 900km/h IAS !
the Bf110G at ~700
the Mosquito at ~740
the Beaufighter at ~720
the A-20G at ~750

the Pe-3bis is most propably the best plane in this "crowd" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
and too against single engine fighters.
it has a higher max dive than a lot of single engined fighters in game.
it has a good armament (2 UB, 2 Shvak , one UB for rear).
good turn.


just for bombing it has not a high bombload - therefore you have the Pe-2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WOLFMondo
05-02-2006, 08:04 AM
So far I'd agree with Frankyboy. Pe3 is a very nice plane to fly. Maybe when the later war Mosquito with more powerful Merlins appears it will have some competition. You can't beat the Mossie for forward firepower though.

For all round light bomber action though I'll always consider the A20 before any other. In the right hands that plane can dogfight, its got defensive guns, lots of bombs, its quick and had great forward firepower.

Toten_Waffe
05-02-2006, 08:16 AM
Beaufighter be sure.....its the only plane out of that lot whos engines dont spontaneouslsy combust at the first sign of bullet.

It sure is not anywhere near as good looking as the others but I think it all comes down to survivability.....would be nice to have the version with the rear gunner.

HotelBushranger
05-02-2006, 08:21 AM
You can't beat the Mossie for forward firepower though

How about the Beaufighter? 4 x 20mm, 4 x .303 (Mossie) vs 4 x 20mm, 4 x .50cal!!!

Dueling? A20
Dogfighting? Beau
CAS? Mossie (Can concentrate on accuracy more as targets are light and require less oomph)
CAS? Beau
Bomber intercept? Beau http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It is a stable gun platform (especially in comparison with the 110) and shreds B-25's to bits online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Favourite job http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Highest survivability? Beau hands down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif In the Pacific, these things got tree branches in the engines and still kept going. A bird like that isn't ment to go down.

JG53Frankyboy
05-02-2006, 08:26 AM
the Beaufighter has the proplem of the not existent rearview - even in the Mosquito you see something !
but true, the Beau has most propably the toughest DM in comparison to the other mentioned planes.........

Toten_Waffe
05-02-2006, 08:36 AM
Yeah there is the problem of the rear view...but in my experience of piloting these bombers online is that by the time I have realised there is somone after me im missing a wing and spiraling towards the ground. My SA definitely needs improving as in a bomber im normally shot down by someone I ddnt even know was on the server let alone my 6.

Clearly the little guy in the back of the beufighter is shirking his responsibilities and should be sacked for not telling you about enemies near you.

ImpStarDuece
05-02-2006, 08:47 AM
Mosquito is the fastest of the lot, particularly below 1500m/5000 feet, where it has a rough 30-60 kph/ 20-35mph advantage over it opponents, even while carrying a bombload.

The 110G is v clearly the best fighter of the lot, followed by the Pe-3bis, the Mossie and then the Beaufighter. Both the Mossie and the Beau lose marks for no rear gunner (although the Beau probably SHOULD have one, at least historically speaking), and the APPAULING rear view for the Beaufighter.

The 110G wins all the marks for versatility (plus the sexiest cockpit this side of the Gladiator). Huge range of cannon and bombs, good handling, nasty rear gunner, nice and stable and a reasonable turn. Only the Mossie is faster across the altitude bands.

If I was going to dive bomb, the Pe-2 359 serise is my new best friend. Stick 4 x 250kg weapons on it, struggle to 2000m/6500 feet and roll over and bomb the target horizontally for maximum accuracy. Don't forget the airbrakes so that you can make the pullout though. I've pancaked a few times after forgetting.

For missions where you actually expect to see an enemy, the Mosquito probably is your best bet, as long as you dont want to shoot at anything. Flat out, the only thing that will catch it down low before the very end of 1943 is the FW-190, and even then at 1500m/500 feet the FW A5/A6 doesn't have too much of a speed advantage, maybe 20-30 kph/ 15-20mph, at most. 109F4, G2, G6 early/late are all slower down low, as is the 190A4. Once your bombs are dropped you can actually fight in the Mossie as well (just don't expect to do particularly well). At one point I had a better kill/loss ratio in my Mossie than I did in my Tempest.

The Beaufighter is the battleship of the group. Sure the 110G can actually carry more weaponry (2x30mm and 2x20mm) but 4 x .50 and 4 x 20mm throw out ~95 rounds per second. Bombload is light too although 8 rockets is very nice sometimes. Just remember that we have a torpedo variant of the Beaufight, with engines specifically geared for altitudes below 1000m/3,000 feet. Below this altitude, the Beau is second only to the Mosquito in pace, but once above 1000m it quickly loses speed. At low alt the Beaufighter is suprisingly nimble. I have outturned 110 and 190 drivers in it and given them a nasty suprise.

A-20 is best for small groups or when you have an escort. Probably the best defensive armament of the group, it can also be turned REALLY hard for such a heavy aircraft. Important to remember if you do get into trouble. Watch your speed bleed though, you'll probably only have enough energy for 2-3 really hard manouvers before your a sitting duck.

All in all, I like the Mossie best, because you really can't beat that speed in a pre-1944 scenario. 110G is next because of its mass of options and good all round performance. Pe-3bis comes third and the Beaufighter gets pipped out of the placings. If it had a rear gunner, then I think I would actually prefer it to the Pe-3 for ground attack.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-02-2006, 09:43 AM
The (in game) Mossie's stall characteristics just don't float my boat (maybe it's just me). Having a ball with the Pe3 right now...

WOLFMondo
05-02-2006, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You can't beat the Mossie for forward firepower though

How about the Beaufighter? 4 x 20mm, 4 x .303 (Mossie) vs 4 x 20mm, 4 x .50cal!!!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My reasoning, the same reason why I like the Dora and P38 so much is all the guns are in the nose for a better concentration of fire. I like the Beaufigher but the .50's in the wings dilute its potential as they only have a good effect once there near the convergence since they are so far apart.

Matz0r
05-02-2006, 12:35 PM
The 110G is v clearly the best fighter of the lot

Still the version of the 110 we have has mostly given up on being a fighter. Too bad we are missing flyable versions of the earlier models (C,D) who were _designed as heavy fighters, bad fighters but still fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hopefully they'll show up in BOB!

p1ngu666
05-02-2006, 01:28 PM
i guess u guys are talking about jabo style attack, so u should include the p38 aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

pe2 is the fastest level bomber ingame, i think

Xiolablu3
05-02-2006, 02:14 PM
I think there is a serious problem regarding the Mossie damage model. In comparison to the Beaufighter, it is simply made of rice paper.

Once I was in a Ki84b, and I had just joined a historical scenario server. I came upon a lone Beaufighter heading to torpedo our ships, and let rip. 4x 20mm on the Ki84IIb.

I used up all my ammo and he flew on. I used the <gunstat command and found I had scored 91 hits. Thats 91 20mm cannon hits.

My friend came in and hit him some more with what he had left of his ammo. He told me he hit him a further 23 times.

Thats 114 20mm hits. The Beaufighter flew on over the ships and went down after a further few flak hits.

Now, I am unsure what was happening in that plane. He could have lost all controls, pilot wounded, in a real mess. There was only a little smoke coming out of him. But whatever the state of the plane, 114 20mm plus more flak to bring him down seems a little excessive.

On the other hand the Mossie seems to go down after a couple of bursts of the single 20mm on the 109F4/G2. Surely these planes cannot be that different in strength. I know the Mossie was made of wood, but still....

Gibbage1
05-02-2006, 03:13 PM
P-38 beats them all, be sure!

mandrill7
05-02-2006, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
pe2 is the fastest level bomber ingame, i think

Should be the Mossie historically. Pe-3's should be around 350 MPH. Pe-2's with an extra crew position were around 320 depending on the variant. The Pe-2 got re-engined a few times and each of the flyables in the game should have a different powerplant. The 359 should have better low level speed than the 110, but get increasingly useless above 3000 meters.

HellToupee
05-02-2006, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
pe2 is the fastest level bomber ingame, i think

Should be the Mossie historically. Pe-3's should be around 350 MPH. Pe-2's with an extra crew position were around 320 depending on the variant. The Pe-2 got re-engined a few times and each of the flyables in the game should have a different powerplant. The 359 should have better low level speed than the 110, but get increasingly useless above 3000 meters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

we dont have a flyable level bombing mosquito

WTE_Galway
05-02-2006, 05:55 PM
why those particular twins ?

what about the p38 or he111 ?

p1ngu666
05-02-2006, 09:15 PM
he111 abit slow and poor defensive fire

b25 has a poor offensive loadout, but so do all the main contenders apart from p38 and ju88/he111, but thats from some game issue forcing 2x 2000kg bombs rather than 1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

the mossie was the fastest level bomber, wish they would mod the cockpit for the bombsite.

personaly i favour the b25 over the he111, a20, simply the defensive firepower is so much better and more useable.

p38 over mossie, well the L atleast, the FM is better, its stronger, probably quicker most of the time, more forgiving overheat aswell. with rockets and bombs a better loadout.

civildog
05-03-2006, 01:42 AM
For dive-bombing I favor the Pe-2 because I can hit the target with it easier than with the Stuka or Ju-88. I dunno about level bombing with it since I prefer to use dive bombers for, um, dive bombing.

And since the game's flak is unbelievably accurate at any altitude (even the light stuff) I don't enjoy flying for 30 minutes to the target to just be blasted out of the sky while trying to figure out the plane's drift/speed/altitude drop-the-bomb thingie.

The whole "heavy fighter" thing has always seemed to me to be something the generals should have given up on by 41 but it was an idea that just wouldn't die. For that role I'd say the Pe-3 and 110 are fairly even. The 110 does get an edge, though in firepower (all those mods) and the rear gunner has better visibility. I can't stand the rear turret in the Pe's - makes me wish I could set up a key to toggle a "hip firing with PPsh" option!

As a test I set up a series of engagements in QMB with the 110 vs the Pe-3/3bis. More often than not the rear gunner in the Peshka did some early damage to the 110's engines while the Peshka seemed to absorbed more damage from the 110 gunner. I've always found the 110 engines to be it's Achilles heel and easy to get burning so it might just be that.

No matter which plane I used generally resulted in neither plane being able to effectively close without a long engagement. They seemed pretty evenly matched in a turning engagement, though the 110 had more speed in the straightaway. The Peshka's roll rate was a little slower, but it picked up speed a wee faster. It also lost energy a little faster than the 110, but again that might just be my take on it - I'm not a fan of the 110 as a fighter.

The Mossie is ok, but since I was hoping for a bomber version I don't use it much. The Beau and A20 are IMHO are the best current ground attackers, but that's only for 2 engine planes, otherwise the sturmoviks are tops in the field.

tigertalon
05-03-2006, 07:06 AM
Thanks for all the input guys, can't wait to try out this Peshka!

I consider ammocount very important, anyone knows about Pe-3s forward guns?

@ civildog: yes, "heavy fighter" idea seems obsolete by 1941 (as proven by 110s over England in 1940), however, they were devastating versus unescorted bombers. Lots of guns, lots of ammo and quite tough compared to single engined dogfighters.

WOLFMondo
05-03-2006, 08:32 AM
I don't agree that heavy fighters were all done for. Beaufighters in the far easy would mix it up with the Japanese and theres many accounts of Beaufighters defending themselves during shipping strikes. Theres even a FW190 being restored right now that was shot down by a Beaufighter.

AWL_Spinner
05-03-2006, 08:35 AM
If they don't see you coming it's academic what aircraft you're in (as long as you're quick enough to catch 'em).

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
05-03-2006, 09:39 AM
depends on which heavy fighter if u think there good or not.

mossie and beu, perhaps the best, (on western allied side) did great service to the end. they had speed, firepower, ordinance, and range with offensive load.

the pe2, some ju88 types have just average speed and guns.. but the range tobe a heavy fighter..

the 110, and the 410 which was much better where pretty good in some roles http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Irish_Rogues
05-03-2006, 09:52 AM
I always thought the "Heavy Fighter" designs of the early war were more of long range escort/interdiction fighters as opposed to the early war short range interceptors.

StG2_Schlachter
05-03-2006, 09:57 AM
That is true for the Bf-110. Dunno about the rest.

WOLFMondo
05-03-2006, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
I always thought the "Heavy Fighter" designs of the early war were more of long range escort/interdiction fighters as opposed to the early war short range interceptors.

If thats true then the P38 is a heavy fighter.

StG2_Schlachter
05-03-2006, 11:11 AM
Yes.

p1ngu666
05-03-2006, 08:43 PM
indeed, the p38 was intended to have decent range, for protecting the americans. america is abit bigger than a european country..

i think the typhoon was intended for the heavy fighter role..

Xiolablu3
05-04-2006, 04:58 AM
The problem with the p38 as a 'heavy fighter' is that the armament is worse in a lot of cases than a 'light fighter'.

I would have thought a heavy fighter (bomber killer) would have armament like the 4x20mm and 4x 303, ie VERY heavy armament. Or 2xmk108 cannon+MG.

WOLFMondo
05-04-2006, 05:12 AM
Originally the P38 was to have a 37mm cannon in the nose wasn't it? I'd say that would kill a bomber. Imagine a P38 with 4 Hispano Mk V's in the nose! That would have been awesome.

stathem
05-04-2006, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Originally the P38 was to have a 37mm cannon in the nose wasn't it? I'd say that would kill a bomber. Imagine a P38 with 4 Hispano Mk V's in the nose! That would have been awesome.

Guess it would it be something like this:

http://www.kitcutters.com/Nex/NexDH103.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

WOLFMondo
05-04-2006, 05:48 AM
Silly me! Forgot about that plane. How careless!

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-04-2006, 05:54 AM
*Ahem!*

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/P6981.jpg

Irish_Rogues
05-04-2006, 06:01 AM
If thats true then the P38 is a heavy fighter.

The P-38 was designed to meet a pre-war USAAF specification for a high altitude interceptor. This plane was never designed to be a dog-fighter it was designed to be a fast climbing weapons platform to kill bombers. The main requirement was a 0' to 20, 000' fast rate of climb, what the actual number was I do not remember. It has been many years since I was a stat machine. In order to meet the spec Lockheed felt the only/best way was to strap two of the highest horsepower engines around to their design. A by product of a large plane with two engines is the ability to carry a large amount of fuel, that in turn results in longer range by default not necessarily by design. As an aside the P-38 spec stated that the maximum order was to be 50 planes, this fact haunted the P-38 thru it's entire life because no thought was given in it's design to being a "production" fighter.

If my memory has not served me correctly some of the other P-38 guys can set the record straight.

tigertalon
05-04-2006, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The problem with the p38 as a 'heavy fighter' is that the armament is worse in a lot of cases than a 'light fighter'.

I would have thought a heavy fighter (bomber killer) would have armament like the 4x20mm and 4x 303, ie VERY heavy armament. Or 2xmk108 cannon+MG.

Back in the days of genesis of this fighter, most fighters in service had two machinegun armament.

IMO, if need arose, P-38s firepower would be increased (there is option of additional gunpods in PF for 38L IIRC), but it simply didn't need more - in AA role it mostly operated against japanese paper and LW fighters. Sturmbock that you describe was a version of bomber destroyer, its range was irrelevant. If P-38 was turned into a home defense bomber interceptor, I am quite sure they'd hang couple more cannons on her.

On the other hand, I don't see P38s armament that weak: all guns are concentrated in the nose (no need to converge - more effective punch, easier aiming), plus it has PLENTY of ammo (150 hispano and 2000 .50 cals).

p1ngu666
05-04-2006, 11:15 AM
110 had 2x20mm and 4 7mm. similer weight of fire. and yes p38 was intended to have a 37mm

blehiem fighter had only 4 303 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

StG2_Schlachter
05-04-2006, 11:30 AM
The 110 had even more than that Pingu http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
See the different R├╝sts├┬Ątze and Umr├╝sts├┬Ątze we have in the sim.

tigertalon
05-04-2006, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
110 had 2x20mm and 4 7mm. similer weight of fire.


but quite a duration: it had 4x1000 7.9mm and around 300 (!!!) 20mm shells per cannon! SpitfireMkI on the other hand had 300 (or was it 350?) bullets per gun for 303s.


blehiem fighter had only 4 303 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

not picking, but didn't blenheim have 5 303s? 4 in fuselage and one in a wingroot IIRC.

p1ngu666
05-04-2006, 01:36 PM
ah true, they had a belly pack of 4 303 i know that, forgot about the wing gun..
and yeah the spit had less ammo. but u need to balanance that out by remmber the spit wasnt sh1t http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


schlachter, yeah, but i meant to the stock older types, no idea of they had kits aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif