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jayarbro
02-12-2004, 10:07 AM
When we get the Lightning in the upcoming patch, will it have variable engine control for right & left engines?
I am hoping that we can map a throttle button to left or right engines to control each seperately and then go back to both together with "select all".
Since the Lightning had a poor roll rate, I understand the favorite manuever while extending after an attack run was to pull up sharply, bleed speed while gaining altitude and chop power to one engine while applying full power to the other. This thrust differential with full rudder applied swung the nose around sharply and allowed an almost instant course reversal while maintaining energy.
It will be tricky with the controls but should work, right?

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

jayarbro
02-12-2004, 10:07 AM
When we get the Lightning in the upcoming patch, will it have variable engine control for right & left engines?
I am hoping that we can map a throttle button to left or right engines to control each seperately and then go back to both together with "select all".
Since the Lightning had a poor roll rate, I understand the favorite manuever while extending after an attack run was to pull up sharply, bleed speed while gaining altitude and chop power to one engine while applying full power to the other. This thrust differential with full rudder applied swung the nose around sharply and allowed an almost instant course reversal while maintaining energy.
It will be tricky with the controls but should work, right?

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

georgeo76
02-12-2004, 10:20 AM
I don't know if that maneuver will work, but I do know that FB dose support up to 8 engines w/ separate controls for each

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horseback
02-12-2004, 11:16 AM
The maneauver you described is exactly as the late Jeffrey Ethell described in an article someone recently posted on this forum. He'd heard about it from his Dad, an early Lightning ace in N. Africa, and tried it out when he got his hands on one for the article.

However, I expect that the throttles both need to be manipulated at the same time for the move to work, and it is my understanding that engine throttles can only be manipulated one at a time.

I hope someone who has experimented with a multiengine plane in the game can contradict me.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

jayarbro
02-12-2004, 12:09 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by horseback:

I expect that the throttles both need to be manipulated at the same time for the move to work, and it is my understanding that engine throttles can only be manipulated one at a time.
*****
I was thinking something like the following;
Full power climb...
As speed bleeds off, select right engine & chop throttle...
Kick right rudder & pivot...
Apply full throttle, select both engines & straighten out...
Dive back for another pass.

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

BlindHuck
02-12-2004, 12:18 PM
A low speed climbing yaw turn? Hammerhead? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Not sure how much energy you can conserve as its very inefficient, but you would reverse relatively quickly as long as you didn't spin it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif As I recall Ethell put the nose down at beginning of maneuver. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I'll shut up now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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pinche_bolillo
02-12-2004, 12:29 PM
I have read about bong and a few other pilots chopping the engine's power that they are about to roll into to get the lighting to perform a really high rate of roll. since we are getting the L model also this plane did have a very good rate of roll above 300 mph. in excess of 100 degrees a second.

p1ngu666
02-12-2004, 12:55 PM
i think ud need thottles with a button or 2.
press button to select engine, move throttle
ta da
how best todo the button, now thats the question...

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tttiger
02-12-2004, 12:56 PM
With the powered ailerons on the L, I don't think roll rate will be an issue.

I probably would still choose a J, though. Faster, better climb, better turn.

At least in RL, we'll see what Saint Oleg does with it (and then insists it's accurate even when it isn'thttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

ttt

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p1ngu666
02-12-2004, 01:06 PM
the initail roll was crap i think

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Gibbage1
02-12-2004, 01:08 PM
Sadly, I dont think Oleg will put in the throttle/roll thingy. He does not believe it happened and that its a myth. I asked a local P-38 pilot at a museum about this but he has yet to reply to me on it.

jayarbro
02-12-2004, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Sadly, I dont think Oleg will put in the throttle/roll thingy. He does not believe it happened and that its a myth. I asked a local P-38 pilot at a museum about this but he has yet to reply to me on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
****

Surely he will have to have seperate engine control for a twin engine fighter though.

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

Xnomad
02-12-2004, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jayarbro:

Surely he will have to have seperate engine control for a twin engine fighter though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God I hope so as I can't wait to fly the P 38 and the Bf 110 as I already have a Hotas and an extra slider I wouldn't mind having control for each engine instead of selecting them with a button like we have to do with bombers.

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Troll2k
02-12-2004, 02:15 PM
I am not sure if this would work.I have seen several post here about guys building throttle quadrants for each engine.

CARBONFREEZE
02-12-2004, 02:20 PM
I think the reason it will not be included into the game as a possible manuver is due to the limited amount of torque Oleg can aparently model for an aircrafts engine. It would be nice to have this manuver possible in FB

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ZG77_Lignite
02-12-2004, 02:23 PM
I don't really see how effectively halving one's horsepower can aid in maintaining a specific energy state, especially while in a radically tight (read: high energy bleed) turning manuever? It seems to me that this is a good way to get low and slow in a hurry, though I'll admit that it may decrease your turn radius. Besides a possible snapshot or last ditch effort to live, that doesn't seem usefull in very many situations, but maybe thats just me.

BaldieJr
02-12-2004, 02:26 PM
more axisesesessses please!!!

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jayarbro
02-12-2004, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Lignite:
I don't really see how effectively halving one's horsepower can aid in maintaining a specific energy state, especially while in a radically tight (read: high energy bleed) turning manuever? It seems to me that this is a good way to get low and slow in a hurry, though I'll admit that it may decrease your turn radius. Besides a possible snapshot or last ditch effort to live, that doesn't seem usefull in very many situations, but maybe thats just me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
****

I am afraid you got it backwards. Maybe I can help with the concept.
The usefulness of this maneuver is after an attack where you climb at 60 to 80 degrees (zoom climb) and need to reverse quickly without loosing your energy by rolling 90 degrees and pulling G's. I believe it is referred to as a Chandelle and you would not get "low & slow" because you are already way above your opponent after having converted speed into altitude. Gravity and engine thrust would work together for once and increase your yaw rate. In this case that would reduce your turn radius at the top of the "arc". The P-38 is an energy fighter and I would hope not to get into any turning fights in it anyway.

The question was not about whether the maneuver would work (I will find that out in March and documents support that it was used) but whether anyone knows if the engines will be modeled seperately and how to best control them. I know there are twin throttles out there but I am not ready to give up my Cougar HOTAS yet. I am not sure if you can map different engines to different axis either.

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

Korolov
02-12-2004, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Sadly, I dont think Oleg will put in the throttle/roll thingy. He does not believe it happened and that its a myth. I asked a local P-38 pilot at a museum about this but he has yet to reply to me on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then surely he'd believe all the pilot's deaths from loosing a engine on takeoff and having the torque snap roll them into the ground. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

horseback
02-12-2004, 03:49 PM
Actually, the way Ethell described it was at the top of the zoom, you would 'pivot' around the inside (chopped) engine; I picture it as though the two nacelles/booms were two separate a/c flying in formation, where the inside a/c has to slow down and the outside a/c has to speed up through a turn in order to maintain their relative positions.

So, I'm at the top of my climb, and almost out of momentum. I chop the left throttle all the way down to idle and leave the right engine at max, kicking hard left rudder without rolling into the turn. The much slower left prop is now acting like an airbrake, while the right engine is pulling me around it with the help of the rudder (and remember, I've got a LOT of rudder surface) until I'm looking 'downhill' and I equalize my throttles to start back down on the poor bast@rd who thought he was going to live to see another day.

That was the method described as a standard for 38 drivers throughout the war for reversing direction out of a zoom climb. Since little or no roll was required, it didn't hurt you to have a poor roll, although the J & L models, which became available in early spring of 44, had very good roll due to their hydraulic boosting of the controls.

You'd use a similar technique to skid into a turn, using a lot less roll, I imagine. That would be where the simultaneous use of both throttles would be handy.

Cheers

horseback

Cheers

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

p1ngu666
02-12-2004, 04:06 PM
its thrust not torque anyways
if u cant picture it, its like taxining on the ground, slam open left throttle and leave right idle and yourll spin around
same but verticle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
current fb controls will make this annoyingly fiddly i feel

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AaronGT
02-12-2004, 04:17 PM
It's possible to test if this is
possible in principle using the
existing flyable twin, the He-111
In theory you can try it with the
AI planes too.

Torque may be weak, but I am
not sure if asymmetric thrust is.
Maybe over the weekend I'll
fire up some sims and see how
they handle the thrust and the
actual maneouver. From memory
EAW, SDOE, B17-II, WW2
Fighters and WB3 are sims I have
with flyable P38s. May take me a
while to remember all the engine
controls though.
are sims I

ZG77_Nagual
02-12-2004, 04:19 PM
The engine trick was also use to increase instantaneous roll rate - that is to overcome the slow initial roll - and slow speed roll in any p38 (power assist increased rate at higher speeds - but I don't think it impacted roll onset - which the engine trick does help with) Pilot account is this would make the plane roll so quickly and immediately that if you didn't watch it you'd hit your head on the canopy.

Korolov
02-12-2004, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Nagual:
The engine trick was also use to increase instantaneous roll rate - that is to overcome the slow initial roll - and slow speed roll in any p38 (power assist increased rate at higher speeds - but I don't think it impacted roll onset - which the engine trick does help with) Pilot account is this would make the plane roll so quickly and immediately that if you didn't watch it you'd hit your head on the canopy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is essentially what happened if you lost a engine on takeoff; it will also happen with planes that have props going the same way but is more pronounced on counter-rotating planes.

Basically, you suddenly loose a engine on one side (lets say the left engine) - the left side is dragging and the right side is full of thrust. The right wing generates more lift than the left, so the right wing comes up and rolls, and then you become inverted and go down into the dirt. Happened very quickly because the sudden torque was hard to control with the rudder.

In combat you could mimic this effect by throttling back a engine to give you drag and having the other engine to produce thrust, giving you a quick roll over.

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jayarbro
02-12-2004, 06:03 PM
I think I found my own answer in ORR
Oleg quoted;
"Also there will be more twins probably ...
Engine of FB can hangle twins easy."

Meaning they should have seperate engine management like the bombers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

necrobaron
02-12-2004, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Sadly, I dont think Oleg will put in the throttle/roll thingy. He does not believe it happened and that its a myth. I asked a local P-38 pilot at a museum about this but he has yet to reply to me on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well,I hope Oleg gets to believin'. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif This maneuver was one of the first I wanted to try. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Korolov
02-12-2004, 07:19 PM
Maybe Oleg hasn't flown a twin engined plane with counter rotating props.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

effte
02-13-2004, 02:53 AM
It is a stall turn (hammerhead) for all practical purposes. The same restrictions apply. Be very sure to have a sufficient energy advantage. If the opponent can still get his guns to bear while youâ're hanging there motionless at the top of the climb, youâ've just bet your life on your energy advantage and lost.

Second the request for more axes (axissessessssss, my preciousssssss). No reason not to enable them.

Cheers,
Fred

Tully__
02-13-2004, 03:19 AM
Seperate throttle management in FB is going to be an exercise in flying fingers on the keyboard and creative engine select control assignment. At the moment on one throttle axis exists and I don't anticipate that changing. This sort of manouver is going to have to be achieved by manually selecting/reselecting engines and manipulating the throttle.

From what I've seen of the FM's, this will work, but it will require a virtuoso on the control keys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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LeadSpitter_
02-13-2004, 03:36 AM
CH is coming out with a 6 engine trottle soon, I think its going for $160

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jayarbro
02-13-2004, 05:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tully__:
Seperate throttle management in FB is going to be an exercise in flying fingers on the keyboard and creative engine select control assignment. At the moment on one throttle axis exists and I don't anticipate that changing. This sort of manouver is going to have to be achieved by manually selecting/reselecting engines and manipulating the throttle.

From what I've seen of the FM's, this will work, but it will require a virtuoso on the control keys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

****************************************

It will be perfect with the Cougar throttle. The 4 way hat on the front of the throttle quadrant can select left, right or all engines while working the throttle axis (and flying with the right hand & feet). I will have to map trim to another switch. Probably the one I have controlling mixture since I would think the current trend to have mixture control automatic will continue.

Thanks for the response Tully.


"Go in close, and then when you think you are too close, go in closer."
Major Tommy McGuire, USAAF ~ 38 victories in the PTO

Copperhead310th
02-13-2004, 05:41 AM
I may be able to pull this off. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here's how i have my Engine comtrols maped on my keyboard.

Useing the numbers @ the top of the keybord
to seltct wich engine i wish to control.

Select Engine Number

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
+ + + + + + + +
E E E E E E E E

Shift + E to selct all Engines.
So if i want to cuy power to engine 1 i hit
E+1
After i i return to bot engines by pushing
Shift E

This should work in the 38. Basically i've noticed that in twin engines (unlike heave Bombers with multi engines) that just jumping bach to Both engines instead of "De-selecting" a piticular engine is the best, fatses & simplest way to get this to work since you only need to control Engine 1 or Engine 2 Or Both 1 & 2. some of the twin VVS AI light bombers would make good test subjects. Just my thoughts on this subject.

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Rajvosa
02-13-2004, 05:59 AM
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Towndog_31stFG
02-13-2004, 09:22 AM
Ch Products is working on a throttle quad that can be set up for dual engine control of throttle, pitch, and mixture.
http://www.chproducts.com/retail/index.html

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-13-2004, 09:22 AM
Don't forget that we allready have twin engine control with the He-111 and four engine control with the TB-3.

The TB-3 is only capable of doing turns on the ground with seperate engine control.

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Platypus_1.JaVA
02-13-2004, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Seperate throttle management in FB is going to be an exercise in flying fingers on the keyboard and creative engine select control assignment. At the moment on one throttle axis exists and I don't anticipate that changing. This sort of manouver is going to have to be achieved by manually selecting/reselecting engines and manipulating the throttle.

From what I've seen of the FM's, this will work, but it will require a virtuoso on the control keys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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It'll be easy with the three-position switch on my X45 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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p1ngu666
02-13-2004, 09:49 AM
yeah its got a muntload of axis, great. still gotta faf about selecting engines.
u either need a button or something on the lever, or it autoselects when u move it
:\

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