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SS_Bubblehead
09-14-2005, 08:03 PM
I have searched sideslipping and found many discussions, however, I never quite found an answer to my question.

I always remember the statement " Step on the Ball". If the ball swings left then apply left rudder. This works quite well in a cessna.

How about when tryin to shoot a tank, I seem to remember reading and hearing to "Stay off the rudder" while tryin to shoot.

Sideslip indicates that the nose of the plane is not straight, right, so kicking in a little rudder puts ya straight, right?

In the IL2 which is the only ship I really fly, I cant get away from A2G, there is no rudder trim after 4.01 so I have to correct using slight rudder pressure, however, this seems contrary to orthodox gunnery.

Anyone care to school me on this.

note: just loaded PF merged with Aces and patched to 4.01 so this is why all the heartache.

SS_Bubblehead
09-14-2005, 08:03 PM
I have searched sideslipping and found many discussions, however, I never quite found an answer to my question.

I always remember the statement " Step on the Ball". If the ball swings left then apply left rudder. This works quite well in a cessna.

How about when tryin to shoot a tank, I seem to remember reading and hearing to "Stay off the rudder" while tryin to shoot.

Sideslip indicates that the nose of the plane is not straight, right, so kicking in a little rudder puts ya straight, right?

In the IL2 which is the only ship I really fly, I cant get away from A2G, there is no rudder trim after 4.01 so I have to correct using slight rudder pressure, however, this seems contrary to orthodox gunnery.

Anyone care to school me on this.

note: just loaded PF merged with Aces and patched to 4.01 so this is why all the heartache.

VF-29_Sandman
09-14-2005, 08:18 PM
LW planes, il-2's and some early russian fighters have no rudder trim...but the us planes do. maybe u should use jugs, corsair, or 38's for a2g instead.

SS_Bubblehead
09-14-2005, 09:29 PM
Sandman thank you for your input. Yes I do intend to fly other planes, I particularly want to try carrier operations.

But anyway, my question is whether or not others use rudder to correct sideslip while shooting, in any situation A2A or A2G.

I dont think it is necessary to switch ships, the IL2 was quite suited for tank busting, and correct if I am wrong but those big 30s on the IL2 3M are still the best tank guns in the game.

Wolf-Strike
09-14-2005, 09:31 PM
Why wouldnt you use rudder for ground attack??This is the way it was done to line up targets.Could you imagine WW2 planes bank and rolling trying to keep a tank lined up when all they had to do was apply rudder?

Kuna15
09-14-2005, 09:49 PM
I also use rudder when aiming, if that is the question.

You can enable arcade mode=1 in conf.ini file within main IL-2 Forgotten Battles folder. That will show you where your bullets are hitting (as well as other damage dealt to objects).

<sub>
[game]
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Arcade=1</span>
HighGore=1
mapPadX=0.6689453
mapPadY=-0.046875
viewSet=49
Intro=0
NoSubTitles=0
NoChatter=0
NoHudLog=0
NoLensFlare=0
iconTypes=3
eventlog=eventlog.lst
eventlogkeep=1
3dgunners=0
TypeClouds=1
ClearCache=0
SubTitlesLines=3
</sub>

Also take note that using rudder input during dive bomb run is not advisable because it is very hard to hit that way.(Stuka, Aichi Val, SBD Dauntless...)

FritzGryphon
09-14-2005, 10:02 PM
I put the crosshair on the target and shoot.

To "stay off the rudder" probably just means line up properly on the target before shooting, that's all. Don't make large rudder motions when you near the target, so you don't get the pendulum motion.

polak5
09-14-2005, 10:33 PM
Always line up for ur attack.
If its a column attack vertically. But lets say u have no time becouse u have a 109 on ur six, or are in heavy flak and u have to attack a column that is horizontal to you. Heres what I do, Line up on the middle vehicle and shoot, just as im doing that I twist left and right on my joystick, wich applies left and right rudder. This way I get a spray motion on the left and right side of the column. By the way this spray tactic works best with light vehicles becouse they dont take as many hits to knock them out.

Anyways, what I understand from ur question, is wether or not u should apply rudder while attacking a single tank or other non moving ground targets for that matter. This can be hard at first becouse u are moving fast and in a steep angle towards a stationary target. I always apply rudder if im out of line with my target. But like I said this can be hard becouse of speed soo the slightest touch can make u move alot. It just takes practice and patience really.
These are just my tactics, hope it helps.
Regards, Polak

dieg777
09-15-2005, 02:31 AM
Here is a link to what I consider to be a very good explination of slip and when to use rudder

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_001a.html

Tully__
09-15-2005, 06:33 AM
I use rudder to correct aim if it's convenient.

Just be aware that shooting without the ball centered introduces some interesting aim leading problems http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
09-15-2005, 07:07 AM
I always use trim if I have it but for ground attack using rudder can mean very precise targetting or being able to hit several targets on one pass. I like to practice the on the pacific islands QMB map.

Run down the dead centre of the Japanese airfield and hit the planes on the right first and then on the left but always keeping the direciton of travel going down the centre of the airstrip despite the nose pointing elsewhere.

effte
09-15-2005, 07:15 AM
If you want your stream of bullets to go where the gun cross is pointed, do whatever you have to with the rudder to keep the aircraft in coordinated flight.

Actually, that should be level, coordinated flight. Anyone who has spent some time at a gunnery range knows the effect of leaning the weapon. However, chances are you will be able to eliminate any sideslip but unable to do much anything about banking.

Cheers,
Fred

geetarman
09-15-2005, 09:09 AM
For all shooting engagements (air or ground) I try to keep the ball centered, be it through trim or rudder input. I think it's really that simple.

roybaty
09-15-2005, 11:31 AM
I myself use rudder all the time when using MGs or canons.

HOWEVER when attacking ground targets with bombs and rockets using the rudder impairs accuracy as you are using the reticle to aim the bomb/rocket which will continue in the direction your aircraft is moving and NOT where you nose is pointing.

Texas LongHorn
09-15-2005, 01:09 PM
what you're actually talking about is a form of deflection shooting. Read hartmann's book and he talks specifically about using the rudder to rock the shots back and forth. Others may disagree, but it works for me too. All the bloody best, LongHorn

SS_Bubblehead
09-15-2005, 10:39 PM
Thanks to everyone for the helpful tips. I have read Andy Bush's excellent articles on BFM, recommended material to say the least.

He did mention that using rudder for last minute corrections or fast corrections can throw off your projectiles vector, quote "your gunsight is lying to you".

I am assuming then that as long as your are in coordinated flight ie ball centered, your rounds will hit on target. This works in the sim so far for me and seems to be the general concensus.

Thanks again all and happy shooting.

STENKA_69.GIAP
09-16-2005, 12:48 AM
When delivering Bombs your rudder must be centred and smooth all the way through the delivery phase but when delivering rockets or in gunnery a small adjustment with rudder is faster and preferable to using alierons.

In air to air combat on a high speed pass it can be better to approach from 5 or 7 oclock rather than 6 then sideslip with rudder to get a shot down the side of the fuselage. This loses little energy, and gives a chance of a pilot or engine hit. The direct rear of pilot and engine was often armoured. This takes a lot of practice, learn to shoot straight first. There are gunnery training sessions on the GIAP site, click on my badge to access and look in the training section.