PDA

View Full Version : Killing AI gunners - it is possible



djetz
03-08-2006, 05:43 AM
I spent an interesting time today experimenting in the QMB, attacking bombers in an attempt to verify that AI gunners can be killed.

It is possible, since I have brought down bombers and had some crew members bail while others stayed in the plane. Using the pause button and zooming the external view around, it's possible to identify which crew members stay at their posts, and I have confirmed to my own satisfaction that this means they're dead.

One interesting thing I noticed is that if you kill the pilot, the rest of the crew go down with the ship - presumably, the AI crew are patiently waiting for the order to bail. A bomber will fly along with the pilot dead and the crew at their posts till it hits the ground.

It seems to me that this must be written into the AI code. They follow orders even if it kills them.

MajorBloodnok
03-08-2006, 05:50 AM
Original IL2 with gore=1 was an interesting sight when you went head on with an He-111. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif I think that the Bf109-F2 had the 'cockpit splattered with gore effect' for a while too.

F19_Olli72
03-08-2006, 06:02 AM
Of course they kan be killed, just as easily as human pilots. Its just another myth about bombers originating from ppl who cant aim.

djetz
03-08-2006, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by MajorBloodnok:
Original IL2 with gore=1 was an interesting sight when you went head on with an He-111. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif I think that the Bf109-F2 had the 'cockpit splattered with gore effect' for a while too.

Yeah, that was the other part of my experiment - to see if anything did happen to AI aircrew when you shoot them. I have gore=1 set. Answer: nothing happens. They look the same, but are dead or wounded. They stop shooting, but the only way to tell for sure that they're dead is that they don't bail out when the rest of the crew does.

I thought this was what happened, and I've proved it to my own satisfaction. F19_Olli72 is correct. The "unkillable" AI gunners are killable if you can hit them.

JG53Frankyboy
03-08-2006, 06:33 AM
so far i rmember arcade=1 has a "gunner down" bubble, hasnt it ?

btw, fly more often bombers, you would be surprised how often you get the screenmessage "gunner down" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Allied_Killer
03-08-2006, 06:35 AM
The simplest way to test is to use the TB3, jump into one of the gunners positions on the top, take aim at the head of the AI and fire away with your machine gun. You would think that one bullet should do the trick, but not so, you'd be surprised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Sturm_Williger
03-08-2006, 06:36 AM
Yes, if you can hit them - however, their "hitbox" is ridiculously small.

Eg. I have whaled approx. 10 20mm cannon rounds ( also on other occasions, approx. 4-5 30mm rounds ) into the rear fuse of a B17. Waistgunners / tail gunner unfazed !

Perhaps they're immune to shrapnel effects. In fact, I've broken the B17 in half with cannon rounds at the tailgunner point - all crewmembers bailed safely. Maybe they're only affected by direct hits.

Think about how far away from a bang your pilot can be killed - blast effects don't seem to hinder AI gunners.

Dash_C.
03-08-2006, 06:38 AM
Some aircraft have dead crewmembers slumped over their guns, but the only to be sure they are dead is to put a 20mm AP between the eyes.

Sturm_Williger
03-08-2006, 06:38 AM
Frankyboy - the AI gunners on a human piloted plane are NOT the same as the gunners on an AI piloted plane.

Yes, if you're flying it, the enemy seem able to progressively kill/wound your gunners. The same hits on an AI-piloted plane don't seem to affect the gunners. ( Certainly not as often )

ImpStarDuece
03-08-2006, 06:54 AM
Flying QMB with arcade = 1 I generally get one 'gunner killed' message at least every second pass I make.

I think that killing gunners is MUCH easier than people make out. Attacking a formation of He-111s with a Hirricane I, I usally get at least one if not more gunner killed meassages.

Just on the killing the pilot thing: usually if you kill the pilot, the rest of the crew will bail out immediately. If you get the PK = 1 message in arcade mode, you can write the bomber off, even if it has a co-pilot position. The crew will jump as soon as they can after a pilot kill.

horseback
03-08-2006, 09:52 AM
For the sake of clarity, my comments are specifically about 'pure' ai encountered by the offline player, not the considerably less capable ai encountered in coops and in human -piloted bombers:

Yes, the ai can be killed, but it takes a silver bullet dipped in garlic & Holy Water, quickly followed by a wooden stake to the heart and immediate decapitation. To paraphrase what one member posted on another thread, I'd rather face a Terminator with a fully loaded gatling gun than an Il-2 ai gunner armed with a single shot matchlock pistol...

Generally, I've found that if the gunner is 'hidden' behind the skin of the aircraft, he is invulnerable; you have to hit the portions of his body exposed to the open air or visible through canopy or windows (if said windows are not supposed to be armor glass), and do it repeatedly.

As a general rule, though, the ai gunners will usually get you before you can get them. Your best bet is to take out an engine or wing from long range or an extreme angle if you can't nail the cockpit in a headon shot. The 'tunnel' gunners in the German bombers are almost untouchable, as are the rear gunners in Me 110s (enclosed positions, armor glass), although the former bane of the Il-2 & Fb fighter pilot, the gunners of the FW 189,are now quite touchable (wide open greenhouse/no armor glass), and I have made an occasional lucky burst into the gunners' positions of individual Il-2s and Pe-2/3s. Attacking a formation of two or more is still pretty close to suicide.

But on average, it takes a LOT more hits into the gunners' positions than it took in RL to kill or disable a gunner, and you run a much greater risk of being 'killed' or having your aircraft disabled than in RL, and this does NOT enhance the playability of the game for the offliner, who is looking for immersion, not artificially hard 'gameplay'.

cheers

horseback

djetz
03-08-2006, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Just on the killing the pilot thing: usually if you kill the pilot, the rest of the crew will bail out immediately. If you get the PK = 1 message in arcade mode, you can write the bomber off, even if it has a co-pilot position. The crew will jump as soon as they can after a pilot kill.

I've never tried arcade mode. But I've certainly shot up only the cockpit and had the rest of the crew stay in the plane, even if the plane itself is not badly damaged and still flying evenly.

In my experiments earlier today I shot up an He111 cockpit, and watched it slowly circle down for several minutes, pilot obviously dead at the controls but the rest of the crew still trying to track me with their guns. I was mentally urging the AI crewmen to jump before it was too late.

Perhaps the AI is coded differently for arcade mode.

F6_Ace
03-08-2006, 09:59 AM
Some time ago, I repeatedly experimented with trying to kill the Betty rear gunner with a P47 offline. I tried maybe 30 attacks overall, split 50/50 between those from dead 6 (bad idea) and beam attacks. Not once did I kill the rear gunner.

I shot down a bomber online the other night and the rear gunners were blazing away while the plane went down on fire. I've also seen this offline in 4.04.

You might think that the betty gunner would be easier to kill with 8 .50s than generally receiving a PK through armoured cockpit glass by a rear gunner maybe firing a 7.92mm or similar.

Saunders1953
03-08-2006, 12:04 PM
Horseback has it exactly right, IMHO, based on many, many hundreds of offline attacks on bomber formations of all sorts.

F19_Olli72
03-08-2006, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
You might think that the betty gunner would be easier to kill with 8 .50s than generally receiving a PK through armoured cockpit glass by a rear gunner maybe firing a 7.92mm or similar.

Betty reargunner = 20 mm.

Adam906
03-08-2006, 04:16 PM
This is something that Oleg and the guys have to fix. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

You can hammer away till the end of time on some AI gun positions and nothing happens. I've turned invincibility on and adjusted the convergence to something like 5 metres to try out what happens. You can then fly right up to the position and let loose and usually nothing happens as you would expect. You will get return fire (if of course you've not chopped the plane in half with your first burst of concentrated fire) but then in my experience, the gunner stops but then will commence firing after a time as if he was only hidding. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Considering how often crew members are killed or wounded when you fly a bomber the least that you could expect is the same level of fairness when attacking a bomber. IMO this is one of the things that really p.'s me off about the game and takes away from the experience. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Go head to head with a formation of B-17s - scary enough at the best of times - but to know the only way a gunner is going down is when the plane he is in is shot down doesn't make things any better. Even when flames are pouring over his turret or past his window he still bangs away....

In RL you get a gunner heavily wounded and you not only take out him but also another crew member to come to his aide. That's why it is always better to moderately to heavily wound your enemy than kill him outright. You kill him that's one less, you put him in a stretcher and your need two other guys to carry him.

dravisar
03-08-2006, 04:28 PM
I'm with you guys on this one. By far, the number one way I lose my aircraft in this sim, is to bomber gunners. Even moreso than flak/AA. Two engine russian bombers (TB3s?) with the lower tunnel gunner firing the single ShKas, takes out the engine in my 109 or just blows my head off, from 1000m on in.

On my Finnish campaigns flying the G6, I must have reupped one mission to intercept a flight of russian 2 engine bombers, about 20 times, due to my engine getting shot out over and over again, and having to bail out.

If course, concentrating fire on the gunner positions first, with 20mm cannon and 13m MGs, does nothing to stop them from sniping my ***.

And this is true for all bombers....their gun positions should be VERY easy to knock out if you get a hit with an HE round anywhere in the vicinity, or spray them with 50 cal AP, etc. Even rifle sized rounds like 7.92 or .303 with enough rounds in the right area should kill gunners.

Its very, very annoying, and should be fixed.

Treetop64
03-08-2006, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
For the sake of clarity, my comments are specifically about 'pure' ai encountered by the offline player, not the considerably less capable ai encountered in coops and in human -piloted bombers:

Yes, the ai can be killed, but it takes a silver bullet dipped in garlic & Holy Water, quickly followed by a wooden stake to the heart and immediate decapitation. To paraphrase what one member posted on another thread, I'd rather face a Terminator with a fully loaded gatling gun than an Il-2 ai gunner armed with a single shot matchlock pistol...

Generally, I've found that if the gunner is 'hidden' behind the skin of the aircraft, he is invulnerable; you have to hit the portions of his body exposed to the open air or visible through canopy or windows (if said windows are not supposed to be armor glass), and do it repeatedly.

As a general rule, though, the ai gunners will usually get you before you can get them. Your best bet is to take out an engine or wing from long range or an extreme angle if you can't nail the cockpit in a headon shot. The 'tunnel' gunners in the German bombers are almost untouchable, as are the rear gunners in Me 110s (enclosed positions, armor glass), although the former bane of the Il-2 & Fb fighter pilot, the gunners of the FW 189,are now quite touchable (wide open greenhouse/no armor glass), and I have made an occasional lucky burst into the gunners' positions of individual Il-2s and Pe-2/3s. Attacking a formation of two or more is still pretty close to suicide.

But on average, it takes a LOT more hits into the gunners' positions than it took in RL to kill or disable a gunner, and you run a much greater risk of being 'killed' or having your aircraft disabled than in RL, and this does NOT enhance the playability of the game for the offliner, who is looking for immersion, not artificially hard 'gameplay'.

cheers

horseback

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif, as well as Adam906's and dravisar's posts.

italianofalco
03-08-2006, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
For the sake of clarity, my comments are specifically about 'pure' ai encountered by the offline player, not the considerably less capable ai encountered in coops and in human -piloted bombers:

Yes, the ai can be killed, but it takes a silver bullet dipped in garlic & Holy Water, quickly followed by a wooden stake to the heart and immediate decapitation. To paraphrase what one member posted on another thread, I'd rather face a Terminator with a fully loaded gatling gun than an Il-2 ai gunner armed with a single shot matchlock pistol...

Generally, I've found that if the gunner is 'hidden' behind the skin of the aircraft, he is invulnerable; you have to hit the portions of his body exposed to the open air or visible through canopy or windows (if said windows are not supposed to be armor glass), and do it repeatedly.

As a general rule, though, the ai gunners will usually get you before you can get them. Your best bet is to take out an engine or wing from long range or an extreme angle if you can't nail the cockpit in a headon shot. The 'tunnel' gunners in the German bombers are almost untouchable, as are the rear gunners in Me 110s (enclosed positions, armor glass), although the former bane of the Il-2 & Fb fighter pilot, the gunners of the FW 189,are now quite touchable (wide open greenhouse/no armor glass), and I have made an occasional lucky burst into the gunners' positions of individual Il-2s and Pe-2/3s. Attacking a formation of two or more is still pretty close to suicide.

But on average, it takes a LOT more hits into the gunners' positions than it took in RL to kill or disable a gunner, and you run a much greater risk of being 'killed' or having your aircraft disabled than in RL, and this does NOT enhance the playability of the game for the offliner, who is looking for immersion, not artificially hard 'gameplay'.

cheers



-----------------------------------



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif...me too!! - Falco

FI-Aflak
03-08-2006, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Of course they kan be killed, just as easily as human pilots. Its just another myth about bombers originating from ppl who cant aim.

I just took the Me-262 A1/U4 up against 16 AI B-24s in the QMB. One hit on a B-24 would cut the fuselage in half, or tear a wing off. I hit directly between the two wings would light both inboard engines on fire.


Anyway, the meat of my story is that the Me-262 is kind of a death machine against bombers - even at 850 kph (indicated), after enough passes they are bound to score some hits on your kite. On the Me-262 that pretty much means engine fire. Not today. My fuselage took dozens of hard hits and looked like swiss cheese - even my pilot took a hit (and survived wounded), but my wings and engines didn't even get scratched. Most survivable 262 i've ever flown.

joeap
03-09-2006, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Of course they kan be killed, just as easily as human pilots. Its just another myth about bombers originating from ppl who cant aim.

Yea right, getting a headshot and black screen EVERY TIME even when closing in at 650kph in a 262 from behind is such a myth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

djetz
03-09-2006, 04:54 AM
It's weird that people are getting conflicting results. I'm not any kind of über pilot, but I don't find AI bombers too much trouble. On their own, I can take them down and survive 9 times out of ten. I've never used invulnerability setting. And I've killed AI gunners, while avoiding getting seriously shot up by them.

I agree with everybody else - they are too hard to kill, and hits that should knock them out of action often have no effect. But I've never found them to be deadly accurate snipers like some people seem to.

As I said, I'm not that good a pilot. I can shoot pretty well, though. But all this is making me wonder if different systems affect the performance of the AI.

F19_Olli72
03-09-2006, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
Yea right, getting a headshot and black screen EVERY TIME even when closing in at 650kph in a 262 from behind is such a myth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No need to use hyperboles like that, admit it...it doesnt happen EVERY TIME. And if it does, its because you use wrong tactics.

A) Why are you flying so slow in 262? If the bomber has a speed of 300 km/h and your closing from behind with 650 km/h.....no wonder you get hit. For example, in the 262 Heinz B¤r typically had 800 - 900 km/h and he often used headon attacks.

B)If its still too hard you can adjust AI to rookie level...or even empty gunners.

HotelBushranger
03-09-2006, 07:08 AM
I was just in QMB, my personal 205 against a score of B-24s. My high score so far is 2 bombers, and by jove I'm proud of those 2! The seldom times I did a dead 6, even at ~600kmh, I got a dead engine or a dead pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Once, I was about 550 flying parallel about .6-1 km away, and 2 solitary rounds float up and take me out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

HotelBushranger
03-09-2006, 07:26 AM
4 kills against B-17s now. They are MUCH easier to down than B-24's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Sturm_Williger
03-09-2006, 07:32 AM
Yeah, it's funny that - B17's and B29's are both much easier to take down than B24's.

joeap
03-09-2006, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Yea right, getting a headshot and black screen EVERY TIME even when closing in at 650kph in a 262 from behind is such a myth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

No need to use hyperboles like that, admit it...it doesnt happen EVERY TIME. And if it does, its because you use wrong tactics.

A) Why are you flying so slow in 262? If the bomber has a speed of 300 km/h and your closing from behind with 650 km/h.....no wonder you get hit. For example, in the 262 Heinz B¤r typically had 800 - 900 km/h and he often used headon attacks.

B)If its still too hard you can adjust AI to rookie level...or even empty gunners. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to be insulting I just guessed how fast I was flying. I know very well to use headons and proper tactics. i could accept a flaming motor but the point is magical head shots happen way too often and really should not happen at all with hand operated mounts. Got numbers to show us???

bazzaah2
03-09-2006, 11:39 AM
killing AI gunners and taking down bombers is pretty straightforward provided you don't attack from dead 6 (or not for longer than a second or so), but not so bad from high or low 6. As far as I can remember, it's always been like that in this sim, and it's almost certainly not realistic, but just the way it is. I kind of like getting the attack right and making a good attack from 4/8 o'clock positions.

Adam906
03-09-2006, 09:47 PM
I don't fly online so can't compare there but I find the B-24 much easier to bring down and the B-29 the easiest of the lot to shoot down. What I have trouble with is the fact, as has already been mentioned, the fact you pump 2-5 20mm in a crew station and unless you hit the gunner spot on nothing happens.

Flying through a formation of 30+ bombers is hard work even when coming in from the beam. Unless your first burst is dead accurate (pardon the pun) you're in for some degree of damage, maybe even a dead pilot.

Taking a bomber on alone is easy and frankly if you can't bring it down - even an ace then you should only be flying a desk. But multiply the disadvantage you face by a factor of how many bombers (and therefore gunners) in a formation then it's like asking to be blown out of the sky.

For the purpose of comparison I set up a mission with 30 B-17s and an attacking force of 8 Bf 110s and hung back to see the tactics of the AI 110s and they almost without exception come in from the 6 and can make on average 2-5 runs before coming unstuck. Granted there are exceptions to the rule but when I try the same tact I usually end up with at least one dead engine, fuel tank fire and/or dead pilot.

You put a 20mm round in the vacinity of any of the crew and you are bound to at least cause some inconvenience to them, if not to say make them late for dinner but it very seldom works like that. Spraying lead at a bomber is slight different to spraying lead at a fighter and so my tactics differ slightly. I always try and aim for the cockpit or engines but with a bomber if I can 'only' hit the fuselage then that's okay because in theory it should still knock out a gunner and lessen the defences for the next pass.

Interestingly - whenever I knock down a B-17 I always pause and check out the a/c to see who is left inside and almost without exception the radio op always stays behind - even if I've not hit anywhere near his station. This leads me to wonder whether the radio op. is the fall guy for dead crewmembers (ie he takes over from gunners) or is just a piece of art work rather than an actual AI crewman.

Oh, and for the record - I can aim and have become quite a proficient killer so saying it is a case of inaccurate fire is rubbish. The point still stands that to take out a gunner is way too difficult. You don't have to kill him but a short burst of m.g and cannon fire into the immediate vacinity would be enough more often than not to at least distract the gunner concerned - possibly even disable his guns or injure the crewmember concerned. As a military historian I've read housands of combat reports and talked to various veterans who all would concur. If a single ship is singled out then the guys would be more inclined to stay at their guns but in the relative safety of a formation it would be more easy to stop firing your guns and look after what is happening to you.

sdcruz
10-12-2007, 10:24 PM
I suppose in RL, the gunners were trained to shoot into the cockpit - so I guess the AI sniper kill into cockpit is not all that unreal ?

ViktorViktor
10-12-2007, 10:34 PM
Does the AI level setting (rookie, ace) affect how well an AI gunner fires ?

I've noticed that AI bombers set to rookie level do not seem to react (i.e. fire back) as quickly as ace level. But do ace gunners shoot more accurately than rookie gunners ?

msalama
10-12-2007, 10:43 PM
Aha, you guys into oldies but goldies here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


But do ace gunners shoot more accurately than rookie gunners ?

They most bloody definitely do. I'm working on this coop ATM where 8 ace Stukas attack an airfield and a bunch of LaGG-3s scramble to intercept them, and let me tell you, even one second in their line of sight/fire and you're PKd every ruddy time. So yeah, they do...

sdcruz
10-12-2007, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Does the AI level setting (rookie, ace) affect how well an AI gunner fires ?

I've noticed that AI bombers set to rookie level do not seem to react (i.e. fire back) as quickly as ace level. But do ace gunners shoot more accurately than rookie gunners ?

Yes definately, ACE is well... the elite !

M_Gunz
10-13-2007, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by djetz:
It seems to me that this must be written into the AI code. They follow orders even if it kills them.

LOL! LMAO! For sure you've never written any real code! It's okay but it also leaves these
funny kind of conclusions.

They are not following orders, they have none so they do nothing. Without code there is no
action and it appears that there is none for when pilot dies and copilot as well.

So... it is not written into the code, what is needed is missing from the code.

M_Gunz
10-13-2007, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by Adam906:
I don't fly online so can't compare there but I find the B-24 much easier to bring down and the B-29 the easiest of the lot to shoot down. What I have trouble with is the fact, as has already been mentioned, the fact you pump 2-5 20mm in a crew station and unless you hit the gunner spot on nothing happens.

If the shell is fragment type and one of the fragments hits crew they are supposed to be wounded.

Way back I sent in a track where a shell burst right next to the head of the pilot in a Tu-2
and one shrapnel line did go through him with nothing happened. The next patch listed a fix
of crew wasn't being wounded by shell fragments. So unless they blew it on revision control
that error should not be anymore.

What kicks me is that the concussion from so close even with leather helmet should have knocked
the pilot senseless if not worse. The shell burst on his seat back right next to his head!

Run tracks with arcade=1 and you can see IF there are fragments and direction of each.

joeap
10-13-2007, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by sdcruz:
I suppose in RL, the gunners were trained to shoot into the cockpit - so I guess the AI sniper kill into cockpit is not all that unreal ?

Necromancer.

fabianfred
10-13-2007, 05:46 AM
http://public.fotki.com/fabianfred/il2-sturmovik-on-li/dead.html

http://public.fotki.com/fabianfred/il2-sturmovik-on-li/dead.html

SeaFireLIV
10-13-2007, 06:54 AM
Killing AI gunners is definitely doable. I`ve noticed this on Stukas which are easiest to test. Gunner gone I can sidle right up to him without a response.

However, it is generally hard to get them in most aircraft.

Like some have already said, they are not affected by near hits or jolts. Sometimes when i`m charging down a gunner, I think to myself `whoever cracks first loses`, but the AI gunner never cracks! Even if I get first hits on him, then riddled his gunner area with shells, he`ll still shoot back fearlessly and accurately.

It`s not whether he`ll crack, it`s whether I`ll crack or I blow up his plane first!

Fear, close call shots with everything shattering around him, especially if the attacker shoots first should at least put the AI gunner off its aim.

And of course AI online and AI offline seem to react strangely differently, ie, AI gunners seem even tougher to kill online.

DKoor
10-13-2007, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
http://public.fotki.com/fabianfred/il2-sturmovik-on-li/dead.html

http://public.fotki.com/fabianfred/il2-sturmovik-on-li/dead.html 1st question..........do you have a track of that mission?
2nd question.............what is the version of the game under which you recorded it?
3rd question.............I suppose you have to have HighGore=1 in conf.ini?

Thank you in advance.

DKoor
10-13-2007, 07:09 AM
About killing the Ai bombers without getting hit by a sniper......it is doable but requires a discipline.
Here is a track (http://www.esnips.com/doc/ed27e945-b26b-446a-841f-8ad3dc0c28ab/KunaMe262-vs-25xB17G-405) that shows that it is possible to kill many of those fat birds and still not be chewed to death by their "ace" snipers.

ViktorViktor
10-13-2007, 07:23 AM
I remember reading that the Finnish ace Juutilainen (can't remember the name spelling) described several times in his combat memoirs methodically knocking out rear gunner positions on Soviet bombers/ground attack aircraft in order to set up a clean shot on the engines.

The way he describes it, it was the gunner who had to fight with a big disadvantage, both psychologically and firepower-wise. By the way, I don't think Juutilainen or his plane ever got hit in his 'duels' with rear gunners.

I have to wonder what data Oleg based IL2 gunner accuracy upon. Anybody know ? (Is Oleg aware that in the West, aircraft-destroyed claims by gunners are regarded as greatly exaggerated?)

Also does anybody know if killing gunners was an official strategy (by any air force)for shooting down some bomber types ?

cawimmer430
10-13-2007, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by djetz:
One interesting thing I noticed is that if you kill the pilot, the rest of the crew go down with the ship - presumably, the AI crew are patiently waiting for the order to bail.

Now that's what I call "loyal till the end". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

BaronUnderpants
10-13-2007, 09:15 AM
I do agree 100% with Horseback and others and sometimes just http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif at the amount of ammo i sometimes put into ai gunners ( talking almost exclusivly about online here ) against bothe ai ac`s like B-17 and like the flying tiger tank B-25.

I think its a simple matter of trying to even the playing field by Oleg. There are so many factors we as fighterpilots on and offline dont meet...like fear of death for ex or the fact that aiming a ac`s guns in real life is so much more of a bich than it can ever be ingame.

If the bombergunners wasnt uber...it would be waaay to easy shooting down bombers. They would be in effect defencless if theire accuracy was remotly modelled like IRL.

Thats what i think anyways.

On that note, its allways a toss when going up against bombers from dead 6 but last weekend i just completly tossed all precations out the window when me and a couple of others was trying to down a B-17. We blasted away with everything we had and nothing hapend, a bit of smoke and such. So when i ran out of 20 mm in my Fw D9 i just thought "f** it" and slowly creeped up on him...i mean real slow from 500 m and in, all the way up to 100 m, and then let loose my mighty peashooters in the nose ( wich was all i had left ) For some reason the gunner didnt focus directly at me but kept shooting every wich way....a lot on me to actually, but i made it all the way in. I could see the exact split second i nailed the gunner, and just smileg to myselfe. After that it was easy pickings for a Bf109 to kreep up and plant a few select 30 mm rounds in the wing and down he went. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It did however take the better part of my mg`s ammoload (wich is alot in the D9 ) directly into the gunners postion from 200-100m to get him.

x6BL_Brando
10-13-2007, 09:46 AM
i made it all the way in. I could see the exact split second i nailed the gunner

Would that be anything like the convergence point as set up in the Arming window? Even with nose-mounted guns this has an effect, because it also allows for the dropping of the bullet stream in the vertical plane. I.e. If you have 250m convergence, then rounds fired from 500m (with the target in the cross-hairs) will fall beneath the target. Likewise rounds fired from 50m (with the same 250m convergence) will fly high.

I don't disagree that AI gunners are wildly over-accurate in IL-2, but it's worth noting that fighter gunnery is also a fine art, as is the correct approach when attacking either a single bomber or worse, a box formation. Avoiding the gunner's cone of fire is essential!

In a way the air gunner's task is easier; he doesn't have to fly the aircraft as well.

B.

msalama
10-13-2007, 10:07 AM
...and like the flying tiger tank B-25.

Yeah? Take one up online sometime and see how much of a "tank" you think it is after that wee experience http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BaronUnderpants
10-13-2007, 10:09 AM
I do have my mg`s set to 200 m wich ever ac i fly, exept 50 cal.

Looking back at it i remember closing in so slow that every hit from 250 and in was clerly visible ( especially since i used max zoom at the time ). I just trailed the fire right into the middle (or in this case right between the eyes of the gunner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. One of the most deliberate aims of mine for a long time.

Usually its just up to snapshots etc. and not as calculating as this one.

BaronUnderpants
10-13-2007, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...and like the flying tiger tank B-25.

Yeah? Take one up online sometime and see how much of a "tank" you think it is after that wee experience http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Theres allways 2 sides to a story, but in my experiance, generally speaking the B-25 can soak up alot of fire before going down. Especially in my case, but maby thats because i usually consentrate my first sh**tstorm on center mass ai. bombbay and forward. Mostly i put my bet one getting as much fire as possible at one point, doesnt matter where...i tell myselfe thats a faster way than trying to aim for anything perticullar...i works very well for B-17 for ex. wich can blow up if u get a solid 2-4 sec burst at a consetrated point. Usually from very high 6 and right between the wings.

stalkervision
10-13-2007, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by djetz:
One interesting thing I noticed is that if you kill the pilot, the rest of the crew go down with the ship - presumably, the AI crew are patiently waiting for the order to bail.

Now that's what I call "loyal till the end". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. It's just that only the pilot has the combination to the "crew safe" on the plane which has all the payslips of the crew and their petty cash. The crew never has enough time to break into the safe and bail out once the pilot is killed... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

msalama
10-13-2007, 10:45 AM
One interesting thing I noticed is that if you kill the pilot, the rest of the crew go down with the ship - presumably, the AI crew are patiently waiting for the order to bail.

Eh... are you sure about that? Just asking because my experience so far has been that they always bail when I manage to execute a proper h2h and, hitting the CP, presumably kill the pilot because they're out like a goat to a man after that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

And it's the same thing on- or offline, Allied or Axis...

Manos1
10-13-2007, 11:18 AM
Without having read all posts on this thread,

I have killed a B-17 tail gunner so I am sure it is do-able.
I have never lived that long to kill a B-25 tail gunner though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif It requires discipline but I learned never to approach a B-25 from the rear, and that's it.

Tail gunners die if shot at the head.

If you want to test it, just change conf.ini to arcade=1 and you will see the areas your bullets hit.

~S~

DKoor
10-13-2007, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Manos1:
Tail gunners die if shot at the head. That's why 7,62 (.303) & 12,7 (.50) rawks vs them.
I just buzz on them at high speed and splash lead in their general direction.
I almost always kill someone.

jensenpark
10-13-2007, 11:54 AM
from a DD coop...this was my lousy rear gunner helping out.

Either dead or having a nap.

I find everyone else's rear gunners rock. Mine just die alot. LOL.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/jensenpark/deadguy.jpg

stalkervision
10-13-2007, 01:12 PM
My rear gunners always rock. That is probably because I force them to wear a tee-shirt with a bulls eye sewn on to it.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4010/grab0027zh2.jpg

...........

This is my rear gunner firing at the spit btw and not me.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6759/grab0025ou5.jpg

mortoma
10-13-2007, 01:30 PM
The mentioning of the AI going down with the plane if the pilot does not bail is true. And it follows this same theme if you are manning a gunner position instead of letting AI do it. For example, if you are in a stricken bomber and in a gunner position, you can't bail!! You can hit Ctrl E until you are purplish orange ( maybe a touch of chartreuse, too ) in the face and it won't do any good. If you want to bail you have to switch to the pilot position first and THEN bail. You will see the pilot go, the copilot if any, and then all other crew and your former gunner position bail, which is now an AI gunner instead of you.

fabianfred
10-13-2007, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:
http://public.fotki.com/fabianfred/il2-sturmovik-on-li/dead.html

http://public.fotki.com/fabianfred/il2-sturmovik-on-li/dead.html 1st question..........do you have a track of that mission?
2nd question.............what is the version of the game under which you recorded it?
3rd question.............I suppose you have to have HighGore=1 in conf.ini?

Thank you in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
no track sorry...it was on Daiichidokus server at hyperLobby using planes from the sound mod...and yes to the 3rd

DKoor
10-13-2007, 08:40 PM
Thanks.