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Hkuusela
05-25-2007, 02:24 PM
Here's the reason I have problems with this game. I flew a QMB mission with FW-190 A8 (1944)against a Hurricane (1941). A huge difference in speed, climb and armament. It should be pretty one sided performance wise. What happens? Even though I try to get altitude to control the engagement, I can't outclimb the Hurricane. It is glued on my tail, although some six hundred meters behind. I'm keeping my nose only slightly up to keep my air speed. But it doesn't rise above 300 km/h if I'm climbing and over 400 km/h in level flight. Ball centered. I go into a shallow spiral climb and the Hurricane starts to close the gap. At 350 meters I decide to dive. At least I can get away that way. So I push the stick and dive almost 90 degrees down. I gather speed instantly. When the gauge is at around 680 km/h, I see tracers rip my FW to pieces. Switching to an outside view I can see that I didn't make any distance to the Hurricane diving.

In my view (although I'm sure there is a chart somewhere to contradict this) none of this should have happened. I should have been able to climb away from the Hurricane, control the fight and score an easy kill. Right? If not, I at least should have been able to dive away.

It could be explained saying, that AI is able to fly perfectly, but we all know that's horse manure. I had my plane trimmed and flew the ball centered with full throttle. I did not have CEM, but if the AI is omnipotent, I suppose so should be my AI EM. There is no explanation for a Hurricane being able to do what a FW-190 A8 does in terms of speed or climb, period.

I know there will be responses saying I can't fly. I know that already, so don't bother. It still doesn't explain this. Btw, I'm not saying that any plane is over or under modeled. I'm saying this game is f****d up offline. I know I should be burned at stake for saying it, but I just don't give a c**p.

P.S. No, I don't have track, so I must be lying and on an agenda, right...

Daiichidoku
05-25-2007, 02:28 PM
use the climb indicator + speedometer to get best climb, or for highest speed w/best climb

and have more than a few seconds of patience!

Philipscdrw
05-25-2007, 02:53 PM
Fighting against the AI is an exercise in frustration for me. Countless times, the AI just goes up in a gentle spiral climb, and if I do manage to catch up, he rolls inverted just when I'm getting close to firing range, dives, and repeats. Eventually he might end up flying home in a straight line and completely ignore my fire.

Flying in campaigns is better than in the QMB, I think, and flying online is best of all!

Hawgdog
05-25-2007, 02:55 PM
Registered: Tue March 20 2007


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Hkuusela
05-25-2007, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
use the climb indicator + speedometer to get best climb, or for highest speed w/best climb

and have more than a few seconds of patience! I don't think that really was the issue. FW-190 A8 should beat the Hurricane easily in both speed and climb. So if I'm in a shallow climb of around 10 m/s, I should at least make distance with my superior speed, shouldn't I? Patience is not my virtue, I admit, but I've had this game for over a year and even though there are things I love about it, it is really frustrating offline. So instead of a few seconds I've kept my peace for quite a few months.

XyZspineZyX
05-25-2007, 03:05 PM
Actually the Hurricane is a better climber than the 190A8...

Alot of people think that the Hurri is an inferior foe then they quickly realise that reality is quite the opposite. There is a reason why the Luftwaffe hated Hurricanes so much.

Ok, I will hand to you that the 190 should out dive a Hurri, but a dive from 350m? cooome ooon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

If you want to distance yourself you need to start that dive from atleast 4000m.

leitmotiv
05-25-2007, 03:07 PM
Well, the first question should be how much ordnance were you hauling? Were you carrying gun packs? Were you fully loaded with fuel? Which model Hurricane? If you were heavily loaded, a Hurricane IIB which was lightly loaded could eat your lunch. It is not as simple as it seems. The Fw 190A-8 was a degraded, debased end of its legs variant of the radial of the species. A 190A-4 was the beast at the top of its form---light, handy, and murderous.

Hkuusela
05-25-2007, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Skunk241981:
Actually the Hurricane is a better climber than the 190A8... Really? What exactly was the climb rate of FW-190 A8? The best rate of climb for the Hurricane that I know is 3140 ft/min for Mk IIA.


Originally posted by Skunk241981:
Ok, I will hand to you that the 190 should out dive a Hurri, but a dive from 350m? cooome ooon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The Hurricane was 350m behind me. We were at around 2500 meters.

Jaws2002
05-25-2007, 03:26 PM
from 2500m you should be able to dive away from him.
do it in a shallow dive.
If he got too close try rolling a bit while diving, so he won't have a firing solution until you get out of range.

Hkuusela
05-25-2007, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Well, the first question should be how much ordnance were you hauling? Were you carrying gun packs? Were you fully loaded with fuel? Which model Hurricane? If you were heavily loaded, a Hurricane IIB which was lightly loaded could eat your lunch. It is not as simple as it seems. The Fw 190A-8 was a degraded, debased end of its legs variant of the radial of the species. A 190A-4 was the beast at the top of its form---light, handy, and murderous. No ordnance, both planes with full load of fuel, default weapons, Hurricane Mk IIc.

Hkuusela
05-25-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Diving from 350m http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Even my dog can jump higher then that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

or was it 350m separation? If yes, don't let it get that close next time.


190A8 eats the hurri alive even if you load a 500kg bomb on it.
All you have to do is learn to stay fast. It outclimbs the hurri too but at higher speed. Try doing your climb at 350km/h indicated.

I'd say the whole problem is in the cockpit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Sorry guys, my post was a bit obscure on this. The Hurri was 350m behind me. I would have gladly kept him further behind me, but actually that was the whole problem. I couldn't! In my view one of two things should have happened even with a monkey in the cockpit: Either outclimbing or outrunning the Hurricane.

DKoor
05-25-2007, 03:36 PM
I'll check it out sounds like fun....
I dogfighted 4 ace Hurris in a G10.... needless to say I drag them up to ~6k and I still haven't a clear advantage.....

Having a non-overheat engine is just insane advantage that negates many other disadvantages http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

VW-IceFire
05-25-2007, 03:48 PM
Sounds like you need to extend first and then climb. Sounds like you're climbing at a slower speed which means your not getting the best climb out of your plane meanwhile your climbing at what is probably the Hurricanes best climb speed (which shouldn't be discounted completely).

If I were you in that situation, I would use my straight line speed to get away at the same altitude (instead of climbing), then climb, then come back with 1500m advantage. Even then...the angle is such that the Hurricane can bring his guns to bear in a head on pass which isn't always desireable.

Try a Me-262 versus a J8A. Its more extreme in the match up but it teaches you to gain separation and wait for the right moment to turn and get the proper angle to shoot.

Cajun76
05-25-2007, 03:51 PM
A dive straight down with someone on your tail is just like a horizontal one. He's going to cut the corner. Shallow dive, level out and then shallow climb.

Let that Focke Wulf run. Get a head of steam (450+, at the least) before you climb. Keep it level, build up speed and then start a gentle climb. The Hurri will be in the dust.

Separate 2+ km and make meduim turn into him. Keep your speed up even if you have to lose some alt.

On the merge, force him to dive to try for a shot. Your NOT looking to go H2H. A 45 degree roll to the left or right (I prefer left then right) and back to the opposite side with a bit of elevator will send you up and over. If he's turning too tight for a shot, you've gained some alt and energy anyway. Now your set up for a BnZ pass in the next two maneuvers if you've done it right. Keep your speed up always.

Jaws2002
05-25-2007, 04:02 PM
Do one simple trick. Start the fight and then click on the auto pilot. See what is the AI A8 doing to beat the hurri.

Hkuusela
05-25-2007, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
A dive straight down with someone on your tail is just like a horizontal one. He's going to cut the corner. Shallow dive, level out and then shallow climb. I hear you, but the analogy doesn't work. In a horizontal turn you don't gather speed. If the opponent cuts the corner, he will gather less speed than you in a steeper dive.


Originally posted by Cajun76:
Let that Focke Wulf run. Get a head of steam (450+, at the least) before you climb. Keep it level, build up speed and then start a gentle climb. The Hurri will be in the dust. That's actually what I tried. I leveled and tried to gather speed. I got to around 400 km/h at 2000m. And my climb really was a gentle one with a climb rate of around 10 m/s, which caused my speed to drop to around 300 km/h.

Not to say I don't appriciate the advice though!

Jaws2002
05-25-2007, 04:23 PM
I think wold be a good idea to record a track and post it here. There are a lot of people that could watch it and see where is the problem.
The AI is porked in this game but not to that extent to cancel the advantage of A8 over a Hurricane.
please record a track and post it. I'm not home right now so won't be able to watch it for a day or two but there are a lot of helpful people here that could help you a lot after watching the track.

DKoor
05-25-2007, 04:31 PM
Quick conclusion (which BTW confirmes all of my findings to date) is: it's impossible to fight Ai with energy... at least not on fair basis.

HKuusela is right.... those are all great tips when fighting humans but void almost 100% when fighting Ai.
Pure nice bnz technique is always near impossible to do good with Ai.
Sure it's a lot easier to destroy it than human, but only because you know what their deadly moves are. You can learn them.... and their flying "menu" doesn't grow..... once you learn, you know it for good, no surprises http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fordfan25
05-25-2007, 04:33 PM
ai cheats. dispite claims that it shares the same FM it plays by its own riles. zeros out dive wildcats and wildcats out climb zeros ect ect. the AI in this game IMHO stinks. pluse i dont think it overheats.

DKoor
05-25-2007, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
I think wold be a good idea to record a track and post it here. I disagree 100% if you refer to HKuusela's tracks!

I would like to see the track... but not HKuusela's but from others who are willing to help him!

I can't help him because I simply can't fight Ai the way I fight the most experienced online pilots.
My stuff actually works Vs them, but fails miserably Vs Ai.
Sure I can destroy Ai in a few moves in superior plane such is FW-190 to Hurri, but as I said, I cannot fight them the way I fight humans!

So....... if some of you guys that know how to do it are willing to show the track, I'll be thankful. And also HKuusela too, I presume http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
05-25-2007, 04:48 PM
BTW I'm repeating myself like a parrot about Ai. Every time this "Ai issue" comes up.
I've conducted several serious tests which all clearly shows just how 'privileged' Ai are.

I'll post it here, again.
http://www.speedyshare.com/776965532.html

mbfRoy
05-25-2007, 04:51 PM
http://www.filefactory.com/file/390d88/

Quick track I just recorded a few mins ago. AI is set to "Ace". Hope it helps...

EDIT: I just watched it, and even though it shows that I was hit, I didn't get hit when I was recording it, or at least I didn't hear/see any hits. Weird...

Henkie327
05-25-2007, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
Here's the reason I have problems with this game. I flew a QMB mission with FW-190 A8 (1944)against a Hurricane (1941). A huge difference in speed, climb and armament. It should be pretty one sided performance wise. What happens? Even though I try to get altitude to control the engagement, I can't outclimb the Hurricane. It is glued on my tail, although some six hundred meters behind. I'm keeping my nose only slightly up to keep my air speed. But it doesn't rise above 300 km/h if I'm climbing and over 400 km/h in level flight. Ball centered. I go into a shallow spiral climb and the Hurricane starts to close the gap. At 350 meters I decide to dive. At least I can get away that way. So I push the stick and dive almost 90 degrees down. I gather speed instantly. When the gauge is at around 680 km/h, I see tracers rip my FW to pieces. Switching to an outside view I can see that I didn't make any distance to the Hurricane diving.

In my view (although I'm sure there is a chart somewhere to contradict this) none of this should have happened. I should have been able to climb away from the Hurricane, control the fight and score an easy kill. Right? If not, I at least should have been able to dive away.

It could be explained saying, that AI is able to fly perfectly, but we all know that's horse manure. I had my plane trimmed and flew the ball centered with full throttle. I did not have CEM, but if the AI is omnipotent, I suppose so should be my AI EM. There is no explanation for a Hurricane being able to do what a FW-190 A8 does in terms of speed or climb, period.

I know there will be responses saying I can't fly. I know that already, so don't bother. It still doesn't explain this. Btw, I'm not saying that any plane is over or under modeled. I'm saying this game is f****d up offline. I know I should be burned at stake for saying it, but I just don't give a c**p.

P.S. No, I don't have track, so I must be lying and on an agenda, right...

I tried it for myself and it's all true what you say. Offline this game is **** because the strange AI. And online it is no fun with AI as well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

But you can always find a way to kill AI. If not with staying fast and high, then maybe with flying low and slowing down? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.giflol

http://www.filefactory.com/file/94b656/

Cajun76
05-25-2007, 06:44 PM
If your speed is falling to 300, you're climbing too steeply. High speed climb is where the Fw and the Jug shine. The hurri can climb at that rate, but not that speed. He might be able match speed, but not while climbing. The AI will try to match your alt however, so concentrate on speed.


I hear you, but the analogy doesn't work. In a horizontal turn you don't gather speed. If the opponent cuts the corner, he will gather less speed than you in a steeper dive.

For a few critical seconds, with him gaining at 350m away, he's going to cut inside a steep dive manuever and have a fire solution.

A dive initiated by an aileron roll into about 135 or 225 position will allow you to gain speed, lose alt and turn at the same time, a challenge for even the AI. As you extend roll back upright, get co alt and extend.

lowfighter
05-25-2007, 11:27 PM
Take old Icefire advice! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It's a problem with your level speed also, you get 400 Km/h in level flight, you shoud be more like 500 Km/h, or perhaps I didn't understand well your speed statement??
If you'd like a track to see how easy you leave a Hurricane in the dust please PM me.

M_Gunz
05-25-2007, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
I'm keeping my nose only slightly up to keep my air speed. But it doesn't rise above 300 km/h if I'm climbing and over 400 km/h in level flight. Ball centered.

Did you look for what caused that? Maybe a step of flap not taken up? Bit too fast for gear down.

EDIT: of course at really high alt 400 kph IAS may be very high speed but not a 2500 meters!

Hkuusela
05-26-2007, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hkuusela:
I'm keeping my nose only slightly up to keep my air speed. But it doesn't rise above 300 km/h if I'm climbing and over 400 km/h in level flight. Ball centered.

Did you look for what caused that? Maybe a step of flap not taken up? Bit too fast for gear down.

EDIT: of course at really high alt 400 kph IAS may be very high speed but not a 2500 meters! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's right. But this was a QMB mission that started in the air. So no flaps or gear down. Just a few kilometers of level flight before meeting the enemy and then climbing.

Oh, btw, I did give it a second try. Did a shallower dive (after again initially gaining no advantage in speed or altitude) and got away easily (I maintained a speed of 650 km/h at ground level for a while), so that's definitely where I went wrong the first time (even though the analogy of a level turn isn't 100 % accurate). But again when I started to regain altitude (in a shallow climb), that damn Hurricane closed in on me. So I decided to take the fight up high. Climbed to 6500m and managed to keep the Hurricane behind me and even finally made some distance. At 6500m it was finally a piece of cake.