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View Full Version : gunsight...my opinion



Fighterduck
01-08-2005, 04:50 AM
so, I know that this aren't priority for a flightsimulator but for me the gunsight in pf and il2 are not so exciting to use: the modellisation is good, but when you fire....don't really seem a real machine gun. The sound are not so good, but the thing i don't like its that when you fire, you don't have the impression to fire a real gun. For example, in b-17 the gunsight are really good, when you pull the trigger it's a pleasure.
I konw that's another concept of flightsim, but good gunsight add more "passino" plaing the game.

Fighterduck
01-08-2005, 04:50 AM
so, I know that this aren't priority for a flightsimulator but for me the gunsight in pf and il2 are not so exciting to use: the modellisation is good, but when you fire....don't really seem a real machine gun. The sound are not so good, but the thing i don't like its that when you fire, you don't have the impression to fire a real gun. For example, in b-17 the gunsight are really good, when you pull the trigger it's a pleasure.
I konw that's another concept of flightsim, but good gunsight add more "passino" plaing the game.

Longjocks
01-08-2005, 06:33 AM
What are you trying to get across here? Are you talking about the sight shaking? Head shake? Or is this about tracers and the more 'cinematic' look they have in B-17 as if they were mimicking gun-cam footage?

Fighterduck
01-08-2005, 07:00 AM
no, it's the way the guns fire.
I think that gunsight must be made like in FPS: not the same, but in such games, when you use turrets or big cal. guns you have the senstation they are really "heavy". I'm not able to explain that wery well i know.
But when you fire with a turret in pf...it don't give the sensation that you are really use it.
Also the sound make a really important part here.whena you fire with turrets it don't seem .30 cal or 12.7.
Think when you use the standard weapons on the plane : nose and wing machine guns are really beautiful to use. they give you a sensation on "fire power". But turrets and other machine guns aren't so good.

han freak solo
01-08-2005, 07:17 PM
My only gunsight problem is the Japanese gunsights that obliterate my target, like on the Zero or Tony. I can't see Jack through them.

chris455
01-08-2005, 07:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by han freak solo:
My only gunsight problem is the Japanese gunsights that obliterate my target, like on the Zero or Tony. I can't see Jack through them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You shouldn't be shooting at "Jacks" (Raidens).
They are on your side! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HotelBushranger
01-09-2005, 06:50 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif You fooool!
I think I can understand what Fighterduck is on about, for example, in FPS games, Ghost Recon 2 for example, you jump into an emplaced gun, like a 12.7 Kord, and you start firing, now when you do, there's a deep, booming sound as the big bullets start flying, and the gun shakes. This can also be felt even more with iron sights, like shooting a Degtarev in Vietcong, youve got recoil, etc. so you get a real good idea of what the guns like, its weight, range, recoil etc.

Now the problem with doing that in a CFS, is that with things like weight, youre already dragging around the weight of the plane, which the guns are included in, there not a seperate thing. However, thats with wing guns, and I agree with him with turrets, they dont have the 'turret' feel, it just stays completely still and fires rounds, with a rather pissy sound.

Im pretty sure thats ^^^ what Fighterducks talking about, and I agree. Heavier, louder sounds for winguns, and shake and heavier sound for turrets. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Chuck_Older
01-09-2005, 07:20 AM
You're not firing a gun, though

You're firing guns on a Gun Platform.

It's supposed to be steady.

What I am reading here is this:

'I play a lot of games and this sim doesn't do the same thing as these games when I fire a gun. The way the games do the effect is cool, and I think it's accurate that way, so the way the guns fire here is incorrect'

Seriously- the argument here is that in other PC games, the gun firing effect is different but 'cool' so the effect here is the problem.

Ever fire a wingful of .50 cals while buttoned up in a cockpit, anyone? Anyone? Anyone here at all ever fire the guns in a B-17 while in flight? Any other bomber? No?

Why do we assume so much? Why is the sim wrong and a game right because the game is 'cool'?

Wolf-Strike
01-09-2005, 10:37 AM
The guy is just asking for a more meaty effect when firing a big gun with your hands.Even if they are bolted down to the plane they still recoil though not as much as freestanding.Look at WW2 footage of a bomber turret and youll see they look powerful to fire.

Asgeir_Strips
01-09-2005, 12:02 PM
I dont have any sources on this, but i think the Gun sound isn't up to par.. I think the .50 cal sound is to weak, and the 20mm also to weak..
And i think for an example that .50 cals , 20mm 7.7mm, .303 cals sound the same on every plane..
Is this only me or do you feel the same thing?

DarkCanuck420
01-09-2005, 12:22 PM
I think what he is getting at is in some fps games and other shooting games when you fire your guns you get a sense of real firepower.
it is not only recoil, head shake and plane movements in our case, but its also the visuals and the sound that brings the "feeling of power."

I also feeling that the guns are not all that convincing.

it is a sim and i have not had the pleasure to fly or fire weapons on any of these planes so i dont know what it was/is like. but when you see real flight clips or read pilots recounts, you can see, hear, and "feel" the sense of power.
the firing affect may be accurate, however it still does not bring the feeling of power that the guns should convey.
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Fighterduck
01-09-2005, 01:00 PM
eheh..thank you guys...looking that english isn't my language I can't explain precisely what i'm tring to say. But i think you have understood what I mean.
Turrets and machineguns needs more "feeling" when you fire. HotelBushranger made a good example ( mabye nto the good game ) of some effects that you need when you fire a machinegun.
I fired with a .30 , 12.7 and .50 cal fixed machine gun: also if they have support, they aren't perfecly stable.
I don't say that the sim it's wrong, but i think that some effects can be added to make it more "realistic" .
Don't know if it's historicly correct ( but I think yes ) but when I watch Memphiss Belle I was so "excited" to see how the turrets and machingeguns fired. And if you look it, they aren't stable...they give a really sensation of "power".

Chuck_Older
01-09-2005, 01:08 PM
I undertsand that even with support, they aren't perfectly stable. I have fired rifles from stands and they still have recoil.

Have you fired those guns while sitting in a fighter while in flight, is my question. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I know that I have never done this either, but this is simply a matter of opinion is my whole point:
The argument for it has exactly the same evidence as the argument against it in this thread: precisely none at all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I have no evidence other than "I think that it should be like this", and you have no evidence other than "I think it should be like that"

There's no way to come to a conclusion here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Nobody can refute anyone's points, because it's all hearsay and gut feeling

Atomic_Marten
01-09-2005, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fighterduck:
...you don't have the impression to fire a real gun. For example, in b-17 the gunsight are really good, when you pull the trigger it's a pleasure.
I konw that's another concept of flightsim, but good gunsight add more "passino" plaing the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. B17.. there's no airsim that beats that one in the term of gunnery (sound and visualisation). I have the most respect for IL2 in that regard, but B17 is simply better.

When you see tracers from B17 turret for the first time the only thing you think is WHOOOAW!! Also, there's awesome 'mettalic' sound..

Fighterduck
01-09-2005, 01:40 PM
ehehe...nice you enjoy B-17 gunnery Atomic_Marten http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
I agree with Chuck that we can only say "I think that"...but i'm really sure that firing with turrets and machine guns need more improvements...also if I never fired one in a b-17, i'm sure that they need more firing effects...some recoil, turret or visual shaking, don't know...they need something...but i know that programmers have other priority.

Atomic_Marten
01-09-2005, 01:58 PM
Uh..? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif No-one has evidence, but(!) sit in the gunner position of the TB3, then switch to B17 game in one the fortreses turret. You will know what I mean. (this one is adressed to you guys that didn't try game B17 - for you that are actually try it, you have no doubts I'm sure of that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

For sure that 7,62mm in the TB3 did not sounded that way. And this one ain't no whining, just observation.

Sakai9745
01-09-2005, 01:59 PM
Brought this question to the Chief Pilot in my flying club - he had flown OV-10D's during Desert Storm, which was armed with MGs (somewhat... I'll explain later).

Per his observations, the Bronco was a steady aircraft when firing the four sponson-mounted light MGs (7.62mm). Slight vibration, but nothing that would throw off the aim greatly. Of course, we are talking 7.62mm vs the .50 cal or 20mm variety (hence, somewhat), but it was his opinion that with internally mounted MGs/cannons are always more steady than the turrent or pintle mounted types. More steadying mass to dampen the recoil.

I apologize for posting more hearsay, but at least it's coming from a source that's experienced it. Think of it as hearsay-light http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fighterduck
01-09-2005, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I apologize for posting more hearsay <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no problem...lookig that anoyne can really know how firing a real turret is ( think only veterans can ).
I only fired on tanks with those calibres so i don't know how they work in planes: but i think that turrets and machine guns need really some effects improvements.
But I repeat, i'm not saing thatthe flightsim is wrong, but i think that more improved turrets and Mg can add more pleasure to play the game.
You can watch B-17 for example. ( however I don't want to start a "fight" between those Fs )

DarkCanuck420
01-09-2005, 04:23 PM
All we can do is wait until TBoB, oleg has a lot on his plate right now and to adjust this would invole a large overhaul.

The game is amazing, most complaints are just nit picking that not everyone agrees upon.

all major problems have been rectified, and the small ones are a matter of perception.
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