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sledgehammer2
09-06-2005, 08:01 PM
Hello Ivan, I am addressing this to you because you can communicate with Oleg, and also it has probably already been discussed before and may just seem like a waste of space.

I don't do much "testing", which is to say looking for things to complain about, but I see a couple of things with the F6F and the F4U that can't be right.

That is to say that their performance at 20,000 + ft is abysmal. I'm talking max speed 160 knts in the Hellcat and barely able to even make it to 25000'! The Corsair isn't much better, I was able to get it to maybe 190 kts at 20,000 but it still struggled to get to 25000.

Now I realize that these weren't high altitude aircraft in the strictest sense of the word but I have done enough reading to know that flying at 20000 + ft was not uncommon, and these planes should be capable of more here.

The reason I am asking you about this is that I want to know if Oleg already knows it? If not, how best to get something done about it? I am not just trying to ***** and complain here. I realize that there are many issues with many of the planes, like the P-38 Lightnings and a host of others and many of the people here are very vocal about their complaints (not that that is necessarily bad). I just want to address this constructively and hopefully get it changed for the better. BTW, I am not flying with CEM so that can't be the problem.

Then again you may say that this is all pointless because nothing will be done about it and I will just have to live with it. If that is the case tell me (I hope it's not). I appreciate your help.

Regards,
Sledgehammer2

sledgehammer2
09-06-2005, 08:01 PM
Hello Ivan, I am addressing this to you because you can communicate with Oleg, and also it has probably already been discussed before and may just seem like a waste of space.

I don't do much "testing", which is to say looking for things to complain about, but I see a couple of things with the F6F and the F4U that can't be right.

That is to say that their performance at 20,000 + ft is abysmal. I'm talking max speed 160 knts in the Hellcat and barely able to even make it to 25000'! The Corsair isn't much better, I was able to get it to maybe 190 kts at 20,000 but it still struggled to get to 25000.

Now I realize that these weren't high altitude aircraft in the strictest sense of the word but I have done enough reading to know that flying at 20000 + ft was not uncommon, and these planes should be capable of more here.

The reason I am asking you about this is that I want to know if Oleg already knows it? If not, how best to get something done about it? I am not just trying to ***** and complain here. I realize that there are many issues with many of the planes, like the P-38 Lightnings and a host of others and many of the people here are very vocal about their complaints (not that that is necessarily bad). I just want to address this constructively and hopefully get it changed for the better. BTW, I am not flying with CEM so that can't be the problem.

Then again you may say that this is all pointless because nothing will be done about it and I will just have to live with it. If that is the case tell me (I hope it's not). I appreciate your help.

Regards,
Sledgehammer2

FritzGryphon
09-06-2005, 08:07 PM
Disabling CEM affects performance characteristics.

You should do all testing with CEM on.

sledgehammer2
09-06-2005, 08:21 PM
Would it have that much of an effect? Hey if I need to start flying with CEM enabled then I will, but I just don't know that much about it.

tttiger6BL
09-06-2005, 08:59 PM
This sim was designed around the Eastern Front where most of the air battles were below 10,000 feet.

It never has been properly modeled at high altitudes. Once you get above about 24,000 feet it is wildly inaccurate. Try taking a P-47 up to 30,000 feet. It will barely stay in the air. Yet, in Real Life, it fought best at 37,000 feet.

This simply is not a high altitude sim. You might as well get used to that fact because it can't be changed.

And, yes, CEM makes a huge difference.

And, yes, the Corsair and the Hellcat were very mediocre climbers (so were almost all U.S. planes).

And, no, you aren't exactly the first one to notice this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ttt

Badsight.
09-06-2005, 11:32 PM
in v3.04 , the Hellcat got its Real Life topspeed at 7K with just 90% power : )

that left 30% power in reserve : )

FritzGryphon
09-06-2005, 11:52 PM
In 4.01, F6F topspeed at 7000m (both versions) is ~630km/h. Online sources and object viewer say 611-613km/h.

Far from being abysmal, it's (still) overmodeled.


Edit: 3 supercharger stages on F6F.

JunkoIfurita
09-07-2005, 01:44 AM
Also, when using complex engine management, you have to up the supercharger stages over 3500m (I think it's a two-stage). You're not going to get specified speed if you're running at a low-altitude blower setting.

----

Max.Power
09-07-2005, 04:19 AM
The f6f and f4u both have 3 stage supers. Engage the 1st stage after 2500 and the second after 5000, I believe. I'm not much of a red flier but I think that engaging the supers at those altitudes doesn't blow my engine, at least.

sledgehammer2
09-07-2005, 05:37 AM
But if you are letting the AI control the engine mgt wouldn't the supercharger be handled properly? I have always thought that it would.

And yes I do realize that everyone has always said that the hi-alt aspects of flight are not well represented here.

BBB_Hyperion
09-07-2005, 06:34 AM
AI dont uses Boost nor Supercharger Stages.

Tully__
09-07-2005, 06:36 AM
[soapbox mode]Firstly, it's almost universal throughout PC sims that you suffer a performance or precision of control disadvantage if you use the "auto" features that take away some of the things you have to do in real life. This is intended to give you extra satisfaction in mastering the intricacies of the real thing to get the full performance (and it does for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

2nd, are you sure you were flying level when you did the tests at 20,000 feet? I just tested (F6F-5 and F4U-D) and was maintaing a 1500'/min climb at 150knts indicated when I reached 20,000 feet. Levelling out allowed that to increase to over 200knts in both aircraft.

3rd, maximum sustained climb rate drops off as you increase altitude past best performance altitude, but I was still able to reach over 32,000' in both aircraft, and still able to maintain over 800'/min climb rate at 32,000 in both aircraft at considerably faster than best climb speed.

4th, max speed figures are quoted in True Air Speed (TAS). Except at sea level (and even then only approximately) the air speed indicated on the control panel (Indicated Air Speed / IAS) is not even close to TAS. The higher you go, the bigger the difference. The only place in the game you can read TAS is the cheesy arcade style gauge you see when you switch the cockpit off. It's in km/h but multiply by 0.5399568 to get knots (0.54 is close enough for this exercise). Both aircraft will do around 600km/h TAS at ~21,000' in the game. This converts to over 320knts TAS.[/soapbox mode]



Edit: my tests were Crimea map, CEM on, 100% fuel load at takeoff & default loadout. Additional ordnance will reduce performance, less fuel will increase it. Hotter maps (pacific, desert) will reduce performance, colder maps increase it.

VFS-214_Hawk
09-07-2005, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
Edit: my tests were Crimea map, CEM on, 100% fuel load at takeoff & default loadout. Additional ordnance will reduce performance, less fuel will increase it. Hotter maps (pacific, desert) will reduce performance, colder maps increase it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maps are modeled that way? cool!!!

Equilizer
09-07-2005, 08:40 AM
Cockpit gauges read IAS, not TAS. Indicated Air Speed will always be considerably less than True Air Speed at those altitudes. Do not use in cockpit gauges if you want to test True Air Speed.

sledgehammer2
09-08-2005, 09:06 PM
Well, I see now what a huge difference CEM makes! After reading the replies here I created a new pilot and assigned all the CEM control functions because on the pilot profiles I have been using I have never had those assigned. I set my CH Pro throttle up to handle it and started a UQMG at 20,000 in the F6F-3.

I see now that the AI was never even getting me into stage 3 blower, but with CEM I was amazed! I got up to 30,000 in no time and was loping along at 170-180 KIAS. If I had more practice with the CEM I could probably have gotten faster, but compared to the other night I am delighted!

I am sold now on using CEM, even as bad as
everybody on the forum says it is. I never knew that the AI didn't adjust for that.

I now have some other questions pertaining to the CEM but I will start a separate thread for that. Thanks for the help! I am really happy I discovered this.

Sledgehammer2

-HH- Beebop
09-08-2005, 10:32 PM
Here is an excellent article on CEM:

Complex Engine Management (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_cem.htm)

When I was Air Racing I quickly learned you couldn't compete without it.

Now my squad always complains that I leave them behind. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hope that article gives you some assistance in learning CEM. It's a huge advantage!