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View Full Version : Blue dominance mystery solved...Well...Kinda...



Hydra444
09-04-2005, 05:55 PM
Over the past couple weeks,I've been team hopping between Red and Blue.Noticed that my scores are immensly higher when I fly Blue than when I fly Red...

At first,I just assumed that I was "better" in the 109 than in the Jug...But then a friend pointed out that I actually down more when I fly as a Red than as Blue,I just make it back to base more often when I fly as a Blue.

Then it dawned on me...Maybe,its not so much the performance of the planes,but the tactics involved.I notice alotta times Red flyers "Lone-Wolfing" it.Where as on the Blues side,I have often noticed 2,3,sometimes even 4 Blues all covering one another and picking up whatever slack is left by each other.

Sure,it can be said that often the Blue side out numbers the Red side.But,I have not ever really been in a server where the balance of "power" was so in favor of the Blues that it could be called an advantage.Most the time it appears that it is alot of individual efforts (I.E. Reds) against one mass collective effort (I.E. Blues).

So...What is it that makes the Blues so **** hard to put down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ...Teamwork http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


Oh,and the MG151 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Kuna15
09-04-2005, 06:08 PM
The math is simple; whoever is in larger number in specific area usually wins the ensuing combat, if the players are disciplined enough. No mystery there.

You can tnb and drain energy with Bf-109 in P-47 if you know there's buddy above you waiting for meeser to drain his energy in turn. Then simply dive and hit. That way Jugs are winners even if one Jug do not stand any chance in low alt turnfight with messer. That is simplified winning formula.

huggy87
09-04-2005, 06:15 PM
The mk-108. No mystery to me.

Hydra444
09-04-2005, 07:44 PM
I haven't been in many servers where the Blues had a HUGE numerical advantage.So....

As for the Mk.108.Maybe if people didn't whine about it so much,they could actually realize that it ain't so hard to dodge them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Kuna15
09-04-2005, 08:13 PM
Hydra about dodging MK108 you are certainly right. If distance is considerable we can dodge MK108.

However if we are on pit on server it is harder to dodge but also doable. The real benefit of MK108 cannon comes from snapshots and in that area Bf-109 is champion. Once when Bf-109 gets on our tail and we can't outrun him or outturn without providing him chance for a shot, it is impossible to dodge it. Assuming that messer driver knows his job.

Also I recall of hits from over 400m on pit off servers that I made with nose MK108 cannon of Bf-109. Simply some players don't count on that and they can be surprised. And there is also the fact that you need only one shell usually to cripple fighter.

Grey_Mouser67
09-04-2005, 08:37 PM
You'd have to qualify the server...I don't like using Warclouds as the benchmark, but that is often where the discussion is....I flew both sides and I didn't find the team work to be any different...usually the team that was on defense and/or the team with the most on teamspeak and depending on the location of the target areas relative to the base...green maps favor red a bit where white, snow maps blue reign supreme.... why???

Sea level speed and big cannons.

The Red side has Mustang MkIII which could be good but guns are pathetic...the P-38late is good with acceleration but the A-9, D-9, K-4, G6 A/S are all faster at sea level...the Fw's are the most survivable planes in the sim...the allies best plane is the Spitfire...can't follow any blue planes...simply wait for a furball to start and start shooting. I flew the Spitfire and K-4...I could evade everything with the Spitfire through turning except the Bf109G-2 and G6 A/S. With the K-4...just don't turn with it and watch your score rise...nothing catches it on the deck except Mustang MkIII and you just won't find many of them around with those peashooters. The KingCobra can be good but still not up to speed...D Mustang is pretty good but again...little firepower and K/D9 still faster on the deck.

That is my take on blue dominance...if the HMG's are sync'd and some stability given so the HMG's can shoot something down...a high boost late model D Mustang, Spitfire or Spit MkXIV in combination with a Tempest and I think those stats will even out quite a bit....they'd be on Red's side if Blue flew Fw 190A4's and Bf109G6's vs Spit Mk IXc, Mustangs..even B model, Lightnings etc...teamwork wouldn't be the deciding factor...why don't you try to talk Sparx or whoever is in charge of the maps to try it out for a couple of weeks and we'll see!

If teamwork is truly it, then flying slightly inferior planes shouldn't change the outcome that much....yeah right! Planes do affect the outcome...the only question in my mind is how much? Teamwork affects the outcome too...but how much?

The real connection I find is that pilots who care about statistics gravitate towards the team with the best planes...I see it on every server I fly. I wonder what would happen to the server if La7's and Yak 3's, 9U's and 3P's were added? Maybe more players would shift to Red...and if winning the map were the objective and pilots flew that way, those high flying 109's and Fw's would have to come down and meet the La's, Yaks, and Spits...I think stats would even out too in that scenario.

The plane set in order to be equal aught to be primarily Bf109G6 and Fw-190A8...that is primarily what was going on mid 44...we're missing an entire plane set for late 44 and early 45 engagements on the allied side.

Jaws2002
09-04-2005, 09:04 PM
D-9 is not faster then P-51 on the deck. The late D9 is but not the 44 model.

ColoradoBBQ
09-04-2005, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
D-9 is not faster then P-51 on the deck. The late D9 is but not the 44 model.

I try and I try and I try but I just can't get away from that 1944 D-9 when I fly the P-51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Xiolablu3
09-04-2005, 10:07 PM
I have yet to see a map where blue has the '**** planes' yet there are plenty of maps where red are totally outclassed.

I was on a map last night, the Reds had the Hurricane and the Gladiator, the blus had the Zero and Ki43.

It was a turkey shoot, the blue planes could outturn AND outrun the red planes.

Also those .303 dont do much damage even to the early Jap planes.

This was my reason for asking for a Late war Spitfire like the Mk14 or Mk 16, at least then Red could compete on level terms with the late 109's and 190s. There were more Spit 14's and 16's and 's built than 109K's or Fw190D's.

Blue never seems to be at a disadvantage.

VW-IceFire
09-04-2005, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I have yet to see a map where blue has the '**** planes' yet there are plenty of maps where red are totally outclassed.

I was on a map last night, the Reds had the Hurricane and the Gladiator, the blus had the Zero and Ki43.

It was a turkey shoot, the blue planes could outturn AND outrun the red planes.

Also those .303 dont do much damage even to the early Jap planes.

This was my reason for asking for a Late war Spitfire like the Mk16 or Mk21, at least then Red could cpmpete on level terms with the late 109's and 190s
Blue never seems to be at a disadvantage.
I think I know that map Xiola and yes it sucks for Red hardcore. The best you can do is take a Hurricane with bombs or a Blenhiem and bomb the ships quickly and at all costs. BUT...and a big BUT here...a lone Zero will get whacked by a two well flown Hurricanes. Even two damaged but flying Hurricanes can down a Zero if they work together and the situation is right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But lets leave that map alone. Most hate it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Definately a late war Spitfire would do the trick. My latest tests show the Spitfire IXc is actually 15-30mph slower than it should be (I could not reach rated speed in a standard test) so you're already starting at a slight speed disadvantage plus most of the late 1944 aircraft are faster than a 1943 Spitfire IX anyways.

So as the RAF fighters go...we're in 1943 except the Mustang Mark III which is darned fast but the armament is difficult to work with against well protected later war aircraft.

It looks like no Spitfire XIV...BUT...a Tempest V would do well to redress the balance provided that its modeled as it should be (or introduced in two versions).

Kuna15
09-04-2005, 10:38 PM
Xi I think the blues are stronger in that kind of planeset, because Hurricane can't guarantee succesfull hit'n'run tactic, and Gladiator is useless for anything than pure tnb since it has pathetic top speed even alt advantage wont help to catch smart opponent in A6M or Ki-43.

You are correct... these are not whines. I have flown both sides and it is considerably easier to fly on blue side.
Regarding late war.
Simply on red side there is no such succesful plane as FW-190. And that is going on for quite a while now. 1-pass tactic, -search-dive-hit-climb back- tactic. And everything goes down because of hitting power.
About Bf-109... that plane can not have such succesful k/d ratio as FW-190 because of it's usage. Messer must get down low and mix it up with enemy fighters, so k/d ratio part is understandable when compared to FW-190.

On the other hand, on VVS side the is no pure bnz plane.... I could say they have good planes all around, Lavochkin 5FN/7 series (I wouldn't put Yaks in this group, not even 9U/UT).
On western front situation is different. This planeset is similar to the German planeset -- Spitfire, P-38, Mustang MK.3 v Bf-109 .. P-51, P-47 v FW-190.
Here, guns are the crucial factor on axis side.
Now nothing would come more handy to allied flyers than some late version of Spitfire.

It is good thing to have boosted P-47D_LATE, but better choice for allied flyers as it is now would be MK.14.

Xiolablu3
09-04-2005, 10:42 PM
Howdy IceFire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes, it was the map that you left on last night, I remember....

Totally agree, the TRempest would be a great addition, even the proposed 25+ boost Spit would address the late war balance somewhat.

I feel almost guilty flying blue at the moment, cos reds often outnumbered and struggling.

The one time I dont mind flying Red tho is when there is a Spitfire on the map as its more of an equal fight.

Kuna15
09-04-2005, 10:52 PM
I don't know really about that Spitfires are, as it is now, equal to messers since messers can outrun them on most late planesets. And believe me if you are in MK.9e and you are mixing it up with G6AS, G10, you must be extremely careful otherwise messer is gonna outmanoeuver you and get snapshot opportunity in no time. And he only needs one shot. I don't even need to point out that messer can always disengage by climbing away (G10 and K4 have much much better RoC).
You can also forget about disengaging since messer will quickly catch you up.

http://www.airwar.ru/transfer/grishan///camms/ar/52/pics/9_8.jpg
Spitfire MK.14

Xiolablu3
09-04-2005, 11:04 PM
Sorry Kuna, you replied while I was writing to IceFire.

Yes I agree you still have to be careful in a Spit, its low speed being the one major drawback, but at least you arent totally dominated and can fight back a bit,

I know reds can fight back if they coordinate efforts, its just frustrating when noone is on the server who wants to use any teamwork.

Kuna15
09-04-2005, 11:12 PM
I know reds can fight back if they coordinate efforts, its just frustrating when noone is on the server who wants to use any teamwork.

Yes you are completely right. Just between the two of us, I'm one of these who are breaking teamwork efforts, because I can not setup my TS properly so everyone experiences echoes while I'm connected. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It worked for some time then I messed it up some settings in sound properties and I can't use it anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

So now I can just follow the group, speachless. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Anyway I have always been for teamwork. It is really simple, usually whoever has better organisation - wins. In spite of planeset.

Badsight.
09-04-2005, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
II was on a map last night, the Reds had the Hurricane and the Gladiator, the blus had the Zero and Ki43.

It was a turkey shoot, the blue planes could outturn AND outrun the red planes. thats a slaughter for the Hurricane , but the Gladiator as well as the other 2 Bi-planes are the tightest turning planes in FB

no mono can match them , any of them

Gibbage1
09-05-2005, 12:14 AM
One reason, allied "glass" engines. 1 hit = 1 stopped engine on US aircraft even the historiucally durable R-2800's in P-47's. Its complete BS and i very much doubt it will ever get fixed. On the otherhand you have the Axis engines that can take a licking and keep on kicking. They may not be producing much HP, but it will get you home. A stopped prop wont.

WOLFMondo
09-05-2005, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
D-9 is not faster then P-51 on the deck. The late D9 is but not the 44 model.

The Mustang MkIII is but the rest are not faster than the D9'44 on the deck. At least in my online experiance I've always managed to be able to run away from P51's in the '44 D9 on the deck.

HelSqnProtos
09-05-2005, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
One reason, allied "glass" engines. 1 hit = 1 stopped engine on US aircraft even the historiucally durable R-2800's in P-47's. Its complete BS and i very much doubt it will ever get fixed. On the otherhand you have the Axis engines that can take a licking and keep on kicking. They may not be producing much HP, but it will get you home. A stopped prop wont.

S~!

Hear Hear !

GAU-8
09-05-2005, 01:58 AM
"wolf pack" is primarily detirmined by how tight your aircraft can turn vs time. blue obviously has the advantage.

ever see a succesful gaggle of P-47's online? no. its cuz they cant turn.
wolf pack is strictly a term used primarily for tight turning aircraft in groups online.


its not that red is LONE WOLF... but all red can do is fly straight.if they turn, they die. where as blue can immediatealy sniff each others butts to see "who is who" in a frantic fights and cover each others 6. red doesnt have nearly the luxury. allied aircraft are equal to the big road tourer in the 70,s and 80,s .., bad manueverability , but they can sail ahead in luxury once you pick up speed.
.

Tvrdi
09-05-2005, 02:04 AM
its simple...

1) "Its the pilot"
2) teamwork (with comms even better)

Jaws2002
09-05-2005, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
The Mustang MkIII is but the rest are not faster than the D9'44 on the deck. At least in my online experiance I've always managed to be able to run away from P51's in the '44 D9 on the deck.

Get into a QMB on Crimea map and do some testing.

Kurfurst__
09-05-2005, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
There were more Spit 14's and 16's and 's built than 109K's or Fw190D's.

Spit 16 was the same thing as the MkIX, just with license-built US Packard Merlin (2)66.

There were 957 Spit XIVs produced, incl. post-war production, about 500 of them Fighter types.

There were 1700 K-4s produced (859 up to Dec39 1944), and iirc 1600 D-9s, both stats via Rodeike.

Jaws2002
09-05-2005, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by GAU-8:
"wolf pack" is primarily detirmined by how tight your aircraft can turn vs time. blue obviously has the advantage.

ever see a succesful gaggle of P-47's online?


Did you ever run into "56th Fighter Group" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif? Get your FW or 109 and go look for them online. Good luck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Abbuzze
09-05-2005, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:


On the other hand, on VVS side the is no pure bnz plane.... I could say they have good planes all around, Lavochkin 5FN/7 series (I wouldn't put Yaks in this group, not even 9U/UT).
On western front situation is different. This planeset is similar to the German planeset -- Spitfire, P-38, Mustang MK.3 v Bf-109 .. P-51, P-47 v FW-190.
Here, guns are the crucial factor on axis side.
Now nothing would come more handy to allied flyers than some late version of Spitfire.

It is good thing to have boosted P-47D_LATE, but better choice for allied flyers as it is now would be MK.14.

A pure BnZ plane is an aircraft without the ability to turn, La5FN/7 are good in Boom and Zoom, but the fact that they can turn let most pilots use this ability. At least this prevents VVS Pilots to learn to fly BaZ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (At least in il2 classic nearly nobody used such a tactic)
The absence of the turning ability is no advantage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But so it´s a necessarity to fly with good tactic.

Also before the advent of the P38L good BaZ by allied pilots were not seen very often!
I remember a handfull of P51 pilots using their plane correct, same for P47 but with a wider gap in the skill of the pilots.
But maybe the pony is just more forgiving tactical mistakes.
Flying a G10 I usually know after the first pass if the guy in the P51 will be a hard oponent or gunfood. Spitfire HF´s are real hard enemies for G10´s. Even down low they are much better than clean IX´s.

WOLFMondo
09-05-2005, 03:52 AM
Theres been some great P47 BnZ'ers online for sometime. Trouble is its not forgiving if you wind up in trouble with little height or little energy.


Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
The Mustang MkIII is but the rest are not faster than the D9'44 on the deck. At least in my online experiance I've always managed to be able to run away from P51's in the '44 D9 on the deck.

Get into a QMB on Crimea map and do some testing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats odd cause one of the dead certain things when online is the D9 will outrun the P51D. I've never been caught by one in an all out run on the deck. I guess there might be a difference with rads fully open and overheating that causes P51's to back off or reduce power but I've never been caught by one unless I've bled speed off when looking on my 6 to see if its still there.

MEGILE
09-05-2005, 05:49 AM
We all know you speedhack Mondo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Blue has mostly Big guns, red has mostly small guns. That is why. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kuna15
09-05-2005, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
A pure BnZ plane is an aircraft without the ability to turn, La5FN/7 are good in Boom and Zoom, but the fact that they can turn let most pilots use this ability. At least this prevents VVS Pilots to learn to fly BaZ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (At least in il2 classic nearly nobody used such a tactic)
The absence of the turning ability is no advantage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But so it´s a necessarity to fly with good tactic.

I've tried... bnz in Lavochkin. I gave up as soon as my first pair of wings fell off.

Seriously, Lavochkins are good all around but to say they are good bnzers... they are simply not (if we bear in mind dive performances of pure bnzers in game). With FW-190 or P-47 you can preserve energy better since you can push throttle hard in dive (OK that has limits too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). Also LAs don't have so good performance versus axis fighters on higher altitudes.

WOLFMondo
09-05-2005, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
We all know you speedhack Mondo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Its a fair cop guv.

F19_Ob
09-05-2005, 05:54 AM
It's a fairly simple equation to explain the most common causes for german success.
German planes are generally faster and better armed wich gives the possibility to get away when things go bad.
Most earlier allied planes does not have that possibility, but later in the war many allied get closer to the german performance speed and armament and the gap lessens although noticeable in some respects.
Latewar 109's and fw190 have a harder time to keep the distance to allied fighters but the 30mm cannon gives more opportunities to "one pass kills" wich makes up for some.
I think many allied latewar planes would be equally effective as the german if they had that one pass kill thingy.

This also affects damage ratio a lot. Often with skilled opponents there is less possibilities to fire from directly behind and 90' deflectionshots are more common.
A few hits with heavy mg's is less likely to disable a plane than a single hit with 20mm and 30mm cannon.

Usually the 109 can climb faster and steeper and therefore controlls the higher skies in higher degree than allied planes and the old doctrin that the one with altitude is better off still applies.

well what I think.

Pirschjaeger
09-05-2005, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by ColoradoBBQ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
D-9 is not faster then P-51 on the deck. The late D9 is but not the 44 model.

I try and I try and I try but I just can't get away from that 1944 D-9 when I fly the P-51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Raise your flaps. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
09-05-2005, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
Blue has mostly Big guns, red has mostly small guns. That is why. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Is this one of those compensation issues? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Lucius_Esox
09-05-2005, 07:23 AM
Someone posted earlier about the relative amount of planes in an area, the side with the most normally wins, assuming competant pilots, I am talking about Warclouds here.

The other night on Warclouds Red flew togther in a big group on one map.. Don't know why because there is normally enough on comms, pilot mix maybe?

Every fight Red seemed to outnumber Blue by at least two to one.. Red did not lose planes at a 1-2 ratio or even 1-3, it was carnage for blues for about half an hour. The same old faces did most of the killing for Red but there was so much extra help they did it unhindered and unworried.

I have to say that is probably the first time I have seen that happen so effectively on the Red side and has changed my opinion of teamwork. No one went anywhere alone!!

Actually it wasn't so much teamwork, just everybody stuck together and no one went off on wild goose chases. Everything just seemed to work out right.

So in my humble opinion.. Given competant pilots, and roughly equal planeset, MOB HANDED RULES http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I still think from what I've read the relative performance of some aircraft is way wrong,, and no I'm not going to be specific.

Cajun76
09-05-2005, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GAU-8:
"wolf pack" is primarily detirmined by how tight your aircraft can turn vs time. blue obviously has the advantage.

ever see a succesful gaggle of P-47's online?


Did you ever run into "56th Fighter Group" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif? Get your FW or 109 and go look for them online. Good luck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Howdy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

willyvic
09-05-2005, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Someone posted earlier about the relative amount of planes in an area, the side with the most normally wins, assuming competant pilots, I am talking about Warclouds here.

The other night on Warclouds Red flew togther in a big group on one map.. Don't know why because there is normally enough on comms, pilot mix maybe?

Every fight Red seemed to outnumber Blue by at least two to one.. Red did not lose planes at a 1-2 ratio or even 1-3, it was carnage for blues for about half an hour. The same old faces did most of the killing for Red but there was so much extra help they did it unhindered and unworried.

I have to say that is probably the first time I have seen that happen so effectively on the Red side and has changed my opinion of teamwork. No one went anywhere alone!!

Actually it wasn't so much teamwork, just everybody stuck together and no one went off on wild goose chases. Everything just seemed to work out right.

So in my humble opinion.. Given competant pilots, and roughly equal planeset, MOB HANDED RULES http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I still think from what I've read the relative performance of some aircraft is way wrong,, and no I'm not going to be specific.

Lucius, many nights at about 4 to 8 Pacific time there are a lot of us Reds on comms and flying together. Lately we have been attempting to gather up the lone wolfs and incorporate them into the flight. Has been working pretty well. We join, stay together, and attack as an element. This is effective as long as the core group can mantain discipline. We have learned to nibble at targets, much like piranah, knowing that the cumulative effect is more devastating than trying to rack up individual scores. Now we have to learn to disengage and regroup when our numbers are lessened by combat. You will still see glory hounds a-plenty but more and more of us are in a team kill sort of mind.

Sincerely,
One of the Mob http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jaws2002
09-05-2005, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:

Howdy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

****, I still have nightmares after the abuzze i got from you guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Abbuzze
09-05-2005, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:


I've tried... bnz in Lavochkin. I gave up as soon as my first pair of wings fell off.

Seriously, Lavochkins are good all around but to say they are good bnzers... they are simply not (if we bear in mind dive performances of pure bnzers in game). With FW-190 or P-47 you can preserve energy better since you can push throttle hard in dive (OK that has limits too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). Also LAs don't have so good performance versus axis fighters on higher altitudes.

Thats right, no doubt, but when you loose your wings you are also to fast for a good attack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
At this speeds the 109 is stiff and the 190 can´t follow a turning away target cause of the bar in the gunsight. I prefer a closer kind of BaZ. Speeds within 250 and 500 km/h.
And you are right with high alt performance of the LA´s (at least in RL didn´t test it in FB/PF 401).
But the key is just to be higher, then you have at least some attack runs and if your energy is equal you can still start to TaB.

rnzoli
09-05-2005, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abbuzze:
A pure BnZ plane is an aircraft without the ability to turn, La5FN/7 are good in Boom and Zoom, but the fact that they can turn let most pilots use this ability.

I've tried... bnz in Lavochkin. I gave up as soon as my first pair of wings fell off.

Seriously, Lavochkins are good all around but to say they are good bnzers... they are simply not </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for correcting this misconception.
The wings fall off the La-5 above ~700 km/h, so have to be very careful about any dive, not just about powered and vertical dives.

BSS_CUDA
09-05-2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by willyvic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Someone posted earlier about the relative amount of planes in an area, the side with the most normally wins, assuming competant pilots, I am talking about Warclouds here.

The other night on Warclouds Red flew togther in a big group on one map.. Don't know why because there is normally enough on comms, pilot mix maybe?

Every fight Red seemed to outnumber Blue by at least two to one.. Red did not lose planes at a 1-2 ratio or even 1-3, it was carnage for blues for about half an hour. The same old faces did most of the killing for Red but there was so much extra help they did it unhindered and unworried.

I have to say that is probably the first time I have seen that happen so effectively on the Red side and has changed my opinion of teamwork. No one went anywhere alone!!

Actually it wasn't so much teamwork, just everybody stuck together and no one went off on wild goose chases. Everything just seemed to work out right.

So in my humble opinion.. Given competant pilots, and roughly equal planeset, MOB HANDED RULES http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I still think from what I've read the relative performance of some aircraft is way wrong,, and no I'm not going to be specific.

Lucius, many nights at about 4 to 8 Pacific time there are a lot of us Reds on comms and flying together. Lately we have been attempting to gather up the lone wolfs and incorporate them into the flight. Has been working pretty well. We join, stay together, and attack as an element. This is effective as long as the core group can mantain discipline. We have learned to nibble at targets, much like piranah, knowing that the cumulative effect is more devastating than trying to rack up individual scores. Now we have to learn to disengage and regroup when our numbers are lessened by combat. You will still see glory hounds a-plenty but more and more of us are in a team kill sort of mind.

Sincerely,
One of the Mob http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rgr that Willy, yesterday we had a strike force of about 12-16 planes attacking a long distance target 50% fuel in a 38 to get there and back. we went in at 27,000 ft contrailing all the way, Mortin and I lead the attack with the rest following, we took out the entire target in 1 sorte, and only lost 1 plane to a direct flak hit, we also egressed at 30,000 ft, Mo and I have been flying alot in the 25K and up range, we have encountered several 109's at alt and a few 190's and we have yet to even get a hit on us while downing all of our adversaries, yesterday Bowman, Sourkraut, Mortin and Myself did 4 sorties all at alt and all of us RTB'd all 4 times with kills and no hit against us, the only time we got into trouble was when Blue vulched the base and we laid chase, that got one of us shot down, and I believe 2 others hit but RTB. sometimes it gets lonely patrolling at that alt.
but the advantages that we have up the are HUGE over the LW, too bad there are no flyable B-17's or B-24's you'd see red dominate.

2 of the MOB

WOLFMondo
09-05-2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
I have to say that is probably the first time I have seen that happen so effectively on the Red side and has changed my opinion of teamwork. No one went anywhere alone!!


I saw some of this when I was on yesterday. It was fairly scary. I saw a group 10+ planes at around 4k and I was at 6.5k in a D9 so I took a long dive into the formation to see who they where and help any freindlies. I got about 2K out from them an realised they where all enemies. I was doing 700kph so I went straight through the formation opening up on a P38 that was right in front of me and picking up a couple of bandits and decided the best course of action was to keep the speed up and fly on as fast as I could until they lost sight of me.

I told the other guys on TS where this formation was but only a few blues turned up at a time so they got beaten badly.

jeroen_R90S
09-05-2005, 09:33 AM
I was flying a A-20G a few days ago and got 2 P-38s as escorts ~we laid waste to the ground target and those guys managed to get a few blues as well using me in A-20 as bait. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Too bad I recieved a direct hit by AA.

A few hours later most of these guys were gone and I tried to form up with 2 other G4Ms but they went by themselves not reponding to any calls at all and I saw both of them getting shot down.

After I got the attention they'd gotten, I rolled and turned for my life, dumped the torpedo ('friendly AAA destroyed' -whoops sorry) and managed to damage a Corsair enough with the 20mm tail gun to force it to disengage. My mission was failed, but at least I could get a one-engined shot up Betty back home.

Despite my 'pride' of getting home it was not nearly as much fun as the A-20 mission with the other guys, though.

Jeroen

Pirschjaeger
09-05-2005, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GAU-8:
"wolf pack" is primarily detirmined by how tight your aircraft can turn vs time. blue obviously has the advantage.

ever see a succesful gaggle of P-47's online?


Did you ever run into "56th Fighter Group" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif? Get your FW or 109 and go look for them online. Good luck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Howdy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cajun, from reading these posts I'm glad you were alone when we met. The results were good(a draw). Had there been two of you,.....well, let's just say I'm glad there was only one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

AnaK774
09-05-2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:


Also those .303 dont do much damage even to the early Jap planes.

Blue never seems to be at a disadvantage.

.303 of HC is really effecient in flaming japanese planes unless youre thinking its sniper rifle and shooting from high ranges.
Get closer, fire when targets wingbeam dont
fit to sights circle...

And youre pretty new to game so never say never
If youre in doubt, try pre 4.0 versions, especially 2.04 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cajun76
09-05-2005, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GAU-8:
"wolf pack" is primarily detirmined by how tight your aircraft can turn vs time. blue obviously has the advantage.

ever see a succesful gaggle of P-47's online?


Did you ever run into "56th Fighter Group" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif? Get your FW or 109 and go look for them online. Good luck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Howdy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cajun, from reading these posts I'm glad you were alone when we met. The results were good(a draw). Had there been two of you,.....well, let's just say I'm glad there was only one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I'm pretty sure I wasn't with the 56th at that time, but even now, with the time difference I'm usually lone wolfing the P-47, not always an easy thing to do. When I first started flying it, the advice I would get about fighting down low (sometimes no choice) or at co-alt (again, no choice sometimes) was usually "Bail out", http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif so I've worked at being able to defend myself at all alts. I feel most comfortable over 3000m, as I then have a broader range of options but don't get me wrong, I end up in plenty of stern chases too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The Group actually flies higher than I normally do, and they cover each other very well. I'm not as good with the Groups style, and vice versa, but when it gels and we/they get rolling, it's like a, well, a Juggernaut. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hydra444
09-05-2005, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
its simple...

1) "Its the pilot"
2) teamwork (with comms even better)

That sums it up,period.So many people are to hung up on this plane or that weapon,I think they forget that the plane it useless with out someone flying it.After all,last time I checked no one ever got shot down by a pilotless plane.Regardless of how it's performance is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-05-2005, 05:10 PM
Advantages for blue and why its easier to live:
1. Firepower. The ability to kill and/cripple your enemy quicker will leave less exposed and keep you out of a defensless position.

2. Speed/acceleration. You can turn tail and run whenever you choose.

3. Climb/dive/turn. You can do all three as good as if not better then red.

4. "Airbrake" for 109. Just cut the throttle and pull sharply, no allied can follow that one. Then use your insane acceleration to get you on the path to home/flack.

5. Damage model and/or weaker fire power from red allows you to soak up endless rounds and buys your enough time to run home or seak help.

That about covers it. And yes blues tend to fly together more often then not. Ofcoarse this helps tremendously.

LeadSpitter_
09-05-2005, 06:27 PM
MOOOROON!

Hydra444
09-05-2005, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Advantages for blue and why its easier to live:
1. Firepower. The ability to kill and/cripple your enemy quicker will leave less exposed and keep you out of a defensless position.

2. Speed/acceleration. You can turn tail and run whenever you choose.

3. Climb/dive/turn. You can do all three as good as if not better then red.

4. "Airbrake" for 109. Just cut the throttle and pull sharply, no allied can follow that one. Then use your insane acceleration to get you on the path to home/flack.

5. Damage model and/or weaker fire power from red allows you to soak up endless rounds and buys your enough time to run home or seak help.

That about covers it. And yes blues tend to fly together more often then not. Ofcoarse this helps tremendously.

I definitley agree with 5.The 190 seems to have "shields" straight off the Enterprise.I often find perplexing as how such an obvious oversight in a DM could happen.It's my personal opinion (which doesn't amount for much,nor does anyone else's for that matter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) that many people who fly the 190 fly it for this reason.

As for the 109...Well...It USED to take some skill to fly...Yeah,I said it...USED TOO!Now its as docile as a new born pup.

That all being said,I think the Reds have some trump cards of their own too.The P-38L Late,regardless of what is said about it,is simply a solid performing plane.The P-63 too,very fast with a nice punch (thats if you can manage to connect).The Yak-9U is one that deserves some mention as well.It doesn't excel in anyone area,but it is very well balanced and not to be taken lightly.

In general,I think alotta of us here put more emphasis on performance charts than on good solid tactics.One can't just hurl themselves into combat mindlessly and expect to get a good result.It just doesn't work that way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

fordfan25
09-05-2005, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by ColoradoBBQ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
D-9 is not faster then P-51 on the deck. The late D9 is but not the 44 model.

I try and I try and I try but I just can't get away from that 1944 D-9 when I fly the P-51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i cant eather. the p51 mk3 is ok if your just comeing out of a dive bit if your say 300MPH it takes 3 days and 45 min to reach even 340mph. "i tested its to the min" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Kuna15
09-05-2005, 07:36 PM
Got track? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

MEGILE
09-05-2005, 07:38 PM
Sure but its about 300 meg in size and lasts 72 hours.... great viewing.

HayateAce
09-05-2005, 07:48 PM
Hmm, no mystery.

Blues used to get historically pounded online, so they cried.

G A M E P L A Y and S A L E S

mynameisroland
09-05-2005, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I have yet to see a map where blue has the '**** planes' yet there are plenty of maps where red are totally outclassed.

I was on a map last night, the Reds had the Hurricane and the Gladiator, the blus had the Zero and Ki43.

It was a turkey shoot, the blue planes could outturn AND outrun the red planes.

Also those .303 dont do much damage even to the early Jap planes.

This was my reason for asking for a Late war Spitfire like the Mk14 or Mk 16, at least then Red could compete on level terms with the late 109's and 190s. There were more Spit 14's and 16's and 's built than 109K's or Fw190D's.

Blue never seems to be at a disadvantage.

Hi Xiola

Was flying that map tonight and I wouldnt say its one of my faves however had a good fight with fellow reds against 3 Ki 43's up at 5/6000m.

I agree with your post except for the fact that the RAF only had several hundred Spit 14's available by VE day. IceFire would probably help me on the figures there but if I recall there were more D9's in service than Spit 14's. Id rather have a teardrop hood 25lb boost 16 anyway - who needs griffin anyhow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Grey_Mouser67
09-05-2005, 08:25 PM
Well, lets see what unfolds on WarClouds PTO...just got done flying there and I'd say the dominant aircraft on the server is the P38L.

There are Ki-84b's but no C's and the Ki is a tough bird, but not faster on the deck than the P-38...except when bounced and unaware...I was literally able to engage and disengage at will just like I could on the WF in a Bf109K...plenty of Ki-100's and Zeke's to provide quick kills too! Good thing the Ki's have such a tough damage model...but time will tell...it always does.

Maybe that superior teamwork and superior pilot skill will overcome it and maybe Red team will actually lose...I doubt it though...just couldn't see it tonight...but who knows.

Kuna15
09-05-2005, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Sure but its about 300 meg in size and lasts 72 hours.... great viewing.

Your tone indicates that there may be some problem, but I fail to realise it. I will spare money for extra hard disk and watch it 3d:45min just to see the magic of air refuelling.

WOLFMondo
09-06-2005, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Hydra444:

I definitley agree with 5.The 190 seems to have "shields" straight off the Enterprise.I often find perplexing as how such an obvious oversight in a DM could happen.It's my personal opinion (which doesn't amount for much,nor does anyone else's for that matter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) that many people who fly the 190 fly it for this reason.


It isn't that tough. Maybe you should fly it sometime.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG5_UnKle
09-06-2005, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Hmm, no mystery.

Blues used to get historically pounded online, so they cried.

G A M E P L A Y and S A L E S flying

Hmmm I have been fighting online now for 4 years and I never got "historically pounded".

Maybe I don't hang around with the right guys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Gameplay and sales well ROFLMAO - can you say .50 Cal http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif get a grip you Nimrod.

Please mods, don't ever ban this guy he's too funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

But seriously overall it is teamwork. Go on Warclouds and fly red team for a few hours, they fly blue team.

Red team (massive generalisation) play less as a cohesive team and more "Lone Wolf". When on blue team I find more pilots on comms helping each other out.

This is a VERY big generalisation and it depends on pilots more than sides but if you fly for Red and Blue you know this already http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

WOLFMondo
09-06-2005, 04:49 AM
Red on the PTO server did well last night, shame it was 30 reds vs 10 blues at one point and never got any better than 2 to 1 odds.

I don't mind the japanese planes, I'm a rubbish TnB'er but with those odds it was a slaughter.

geetarman
09-06-2005, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
its simple...

1) "Its the pilot"
2) teamwork (with comms even better)

Baloney - 80% is your guns. the rest is a misture

Xiolablu3
09-06-2005, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
There were more Spit 14's and 16's and 's built than 109K's or Fw190D's.

Spit 16 was the same thing as the MkIX, just with license-built US Packard Merlin (2)66.

There were 957 Spit XIVs produced, incl. post-war production, about 500 of them Fighter types.

There were 1700 K-4s produced (859 up to Dec39 1944), and iirc 1600 D-9s, both stats via Rodeike. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thats wierd I just checked up before I posted and it said that the 14 and 16 were griffon engined. The numbers were about 975 each for both version.

Also that there were 675 Fw190 D's produced.

The page I used may have been wrong, I dont know, Or maybe I misread the Roman numberals (more likely!). I dont know a lot about planes and havent been playing the game that long so pls, if its wrong I apologise.
Just trying to get a good idea to balance up the game without ruining the historical correctness.

Of course, you cant have 20 blue players fighting 70 red late war cos that would be silly too. ALthough historically correct.

I guess if the Mk16 Spit is not an option then the proposed +25 boost Spit or the Tempest, then re-evaluate after a month or so.

anarchy52
09-06-2005, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Of course, you cant have 20 blue players fighting 70 red late war cos that would be silly too. ALthough historically correct.

That's why I like CoT.

Xiolablu3
09-06-2005, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Hydra444:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tvrdi:
its simple...

1) "Its the pilot"
2) teamwork (with comms even better)

That sums it up,period.So many people are to hung up on this plane or that weapon,I think they forget that the plane it useless with out someone flying it.After all,last time I checked no one ever got shot down by a pilotless plane.Regardless of how it's performance is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.

A Red pilot usually has to get into position to fire a LOT more times than someone with 4x20mm+ 2MG or a 2MG+Mk108. Therefore he has to be a BETTER pilot to fly Mustang, Thunderbolt, P38, Hurricane (303) and so on.

Plus not forgetting those, '1 hit kills' u can get with the big guns as lucky massive defelection shots when they fly past across your line of fire, almost impossible with .50 cal or .303. Yet I can do them often with the German guns.

I'm not saying its not historically correct OR to alter this, just saying it IS easier for blue (western front).

Hell I PREFER to fly blue and I'm not saying this to whine. I am NOT a red flyer complaining. I have flown both sides and this is how I see it. The only time I can really compete is if there is a Spitfire on the map.

(Note : all of my findings may change once I get a Joystick, my findings are all from Keyboard flying)

jimDG
09-06-2005, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
One reason, allied "glass" engines. 1 hit = 1 stopped engine on US aircraft even the historiucally durable R-2800's in P-47's. Its complete BS and i very much doubt it will ever get fixed. On the otherhand you have the Axis engines that can take a licking and keep on kicking. They may not be producing much HP, but it will get you home. A stopped prop wont.

the merlin had all its oil lubricant lines as little tubes on the outside of the engine, so the merlins were actually quite vulnerable to even 7mm MG. Same goes for the Alison. The Griffons had the lines incorporated in the cast, so they were resistant to even 20mm AP (will leave a little crater on the engine block and thats all). But they are all carburator engines and one tracer in a carburator will set the whole thing on fire.

The radials do have the ability to run even with half the cylinders shot through (again - even by a simple 7mm MG round), but they are still carb engines.

So it's a matter of separate carb/engine modeling damage - a carburator, I imagine will be quite hard to hit, being positioned between the engine and the cockpit (but I'm not 100% certain on this)

jimDG
09-06-2005, 11:50 AM
no big mystery really. I bought Il2, i started playing offline. I tried the 109, and the 190, and I stalled and stalled in a turn (was pulling quite hard, and didnt have rudder pedals). Besides, I could see little with cockpit ON. So I tried the red planes (spit, hurry, soviet planes), and ..hallooo.. I would stall much less, and recover with just the joystick. I Could also really see my turn circle reflected on the surrounding - the way the ground moved etc - it really felt like a turn, like flying, in an airplane thas a fast turn (in deg./sec and radius)
And so, I flew the Red planes more, which carried on online.

So thats it. Inexperienced pilots fly better in agile planes, and like agile planes. Agile planes have big wings, and/or are lighter (therefore have a lighter engine, therefore have less power), therefore are less good at climbing/diving (BnZ) and running away.
So, poor pilots are more likely to pick up red planes - and loose by being poor pilots.

And thats bourne out of ww2 history - spits/hurrys and soviet planes are designed this way to some extent because the available pilots were of poor quality and of poor knowledge what to ask for in a *war* plane; the german pilots had the whole Spanish civil war behind them + some polish and french experience in 1939-1941. The luftwaffe (pilots) started training for "real" war much earlier than the RAF/VVS/USAAF (of course they were in a better position to know that there WILL be a warhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And american planes were just out of touch with reality, in the beginning.
So, allied pilots were noobs, a lot of them were hastily trained AFTER the war began (munus a small number of spanish war soviet vets) and that is reflected in the airplanes that were made for them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I still havent moved to fw190 though - I hate those ********* http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Been shot down too many times by them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. And TnB is much more fun, EVEN if you do get shot down.

JG52Karaya-X
09-06-2005, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
The Red side has Mustang MkIII which could be good but guns are pathetic...the P-38late is good with acceleration but the A-9, D-9, K-4, G6 A/S are all faster at sea level...

Sorry but I have to disagree. The Mk.III is a rocket at low and medium altitudes. 640km/h at SL is impressive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif no other plane except the jets and rocket interceptors can keep up with that. It's acceleration and climb-rate is also pretty good and its not hard to get away from a bandit giving chase. The trick for the Mk.III is to really surprise the enemy so you can get a clean and prolonged burst into your enemy at convergence (I use 200m).

And about the P38L_Late: It CERTAINLY can get away from any pursuing enemy if energy levels are similar at the beginning. Good climb, good dive, effective armament, awesome payload,... sounds good to me

Kuna15
09-06-2005, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
no big mystery really. I bought Il2, i started playing offline. I tried the 109, and the 190, and I stalled and stalled in a turn (was pulling quite hard, and didnt have rudder pedals). Besides, I could see little with cockpit ON. So I tried the red planes (spit, hurry, soviet planes), and ..hallooo.. I would stall much less, and recover with just the joystick. I Could also really see my turn circle reflected on the surrounding - the way the ground moved etc - it really felt like a turn, like flying, in an airplane thas a fast turn (in deg./sec and radius)
And so, I flew the Red planes more, which carried on online.

So thats it. Inexperienced pilots fly better in agile planes, and like agile planes. Agile planes have big wings, and/or are lighter (therefore have a lighter engine, therefore have less power), therefore are less good at climbing/diving (BnZ) and running away.
So, poor pilots are more likely to pick up red planes - and loose by being poor pilots.

And thats bourne out of ww2 history - spits/hurrys and soviet planes are designed this way to some extent because the available pilots were of poor quality and of poor knowledge what to ask for in a *war* plane; the german pilots had the whole Spanish civil war behind them + some polish and french experience in 1939-1941. The luftwaffe (pilots) started training for "real" war much earlier than the RAF/VVS/USAAF (of course they were in a better position to know that there WILL be a warhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And american planes were just out of touch with reality, in the beginning.
So, allied pilots were noobs, a lot of them were hastily trained AFTER the war began (munus a small number of spanish war soviet vets) and that is reflected in the airplanes that were made for them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I still havent moved to fw190 though - I hate those ********* http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Been shot down too many times by them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. And TnB is much more fun, EVEN if you do get shot down.

You have described things very well if I may add. That is what every newcomer to game thinks about planes in the sim, partially because of experience with AI mostly.

Now when they mix it up with 'big boys' online... they are in lot of trouble. It is likely that they wont even have a chance to fight, only chance to run but that isn't the option too because they usually start combat with altitude disadvantage.

So red newcomers are in advantage versus blue newcomers, but when experienced players are in question that isn't the case.

Once when player realises that he must force combat when he is in advantage and run away when he isn't, that is first step in becoming dangerous online player.

Also about FW-190, it isn't hard ride at all.

I remember what Cajun said in some thread "when I was in P-47 down low and asked for help, I usually get the answer: bail out". That describes things with FW-190 too.
Standard procedure with FW-190 is to take off, climb above average flight altitude on server (above everyone else), then make a formation with others and searching may start. Once when bandits are encountered first FW-190 dives and if bandit has evaded the attack, he is usually immediatelly set upon second FW-190 which then have a good chance to destroy him. Especially if he tries offensive move versus first FW-190 (predictable, he is easier target).

Now the only difference (but it makes ALL difference) is energy advantage that every good FW-190 player posses against his opponent.

In offline tnb makes all the difference, but in online bnz makes all the difference (greater energy state).

bodaw
09-06-2005, 12:37 PM
So the moral of the story here is,"Size does matter!".

I should've listened to my girlfriend a long time ago... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Kuna15
09-06-2005, 12:39 PM
rotfl

faustnik
09-06-2005, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Hydra444:
I notice alotta times Red flyers "Lone-Wolfing" it.Where as on the Blues side,I have often noticed 2,3,sometimes even 4 Blues all covering one another and picking up whatever slack is left by each other.

Where did this myth get started?

I've been on Warclouds several times before, logged into Red TS. Everybody was working together as a team.

Blue has better kill/death ratios because:

- Blue has more effective fighter weapons. The Fw190 had/has nearly twice the weight of fire of a P-47.

- Many Red a/c are/were better performers at high altitude. This isn't good for a dogfight server.

- The Fw190 DM is screwed up.

StellarRat
09-06-2005, 01:52 PM
A few points:

First, even though the .50s are good enough to cripple Blue planes, many times you'll lose your kill to someone else because of kill stealing or unintentional steals. The only guaranteed kills are massive structural damage and PKs, because of the bigger LW guns this favors LW over Red.

Second (and related to the guns again), no one should base their Blue / Red ratios on the War Clouds stats because only direct shootdowns are counted. Many times a Blue will RTB crippled by .50s and I'll get the kill, but no credit in the stats.

Third, if you count ground targets destroyed Red would actually come out much better because Red fighters usually carry much more ordnance then their Blue counterparts (particularly the American planes.)

Then we've got the 190 DM and the lack of high altitude missions as already mentioned.

blindpugh
09-06-2005, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
It's a fairly simple equation to explain the most common causes for german success.
German planes are generally faster and better armed wich gives the possibility to get away when things go bad.
Most earlier allied planes does not have that possibility, but later in the war many allied get closer to the german performance speed and armament and the gap lessens although noticeable in some respects.
Latewar 109's and fw190 have a harder time to keep the distance to allied fighters but the 30mm cannon gives more opportunities to "one pass kills" wich makes up for some.
I think many allied latewar planes would be equally effective as the german if they had that one pass kill thingy.

This also affects damage ratio a lot. Often with skilled opponents there is less possibilities to fire from directly behind and 90' deflectionshots are more common.
A few hits with heavy mg's is less likely to disable a plane than a single hit with 20mm and 30mm cannon.

Usually the 109 can climb faster and steeper and therefore controlls the higher skies in higher degree than allied planes and the old doctrin that the one with altitude is better off still applies.

well what I think. well now with all this about superior german planes how did they ever lose the war

jimDG
09-06-2005, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
It's a fairly simple equation to explain the most common causes for german success.
German planes are generally faster and better armed wich gives the possibility to get away when things go bad.
Most earlier allied planes does not have that possibility, but later in the war many allied get closer to the german performance speed and armament and the gap lessens although noticeable in some respects.
Latewar 109's and fw190 have a harder time to keep the distance to allied fighters but the 30mm cannon gives more opportunities to "one pass kills" wich makes up for some.
I think many allied latewar planes would be equally effective as the german if they had that one pass kill thingy.

This also affects damage ratio a lot. Often with skilled opponents there is less possibilities to fire from directly behind and 90' deflectionshots are more common.
A few hits with heavy mg's is less likely to disable a plane than a single hit with 20mm and 30mm cannon.

Usually the 109 can climb faster and steeper and therefore controlls the higher skies in higher degree than allied planes and the old doctrin that the one with altitude is better off still applies.

well what I think. well now with all this about superior german planes how did they ever lose the war </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you play in a server were blue get 90 (good) planes and 20 (good) pilots, and red get 180 (bad) planes and 180 (bad) pilots, blue are probably gonna loose all their pilots before the reds, or loose all their ground targets to (unintentional) ramming, or both.
Attrition; all things were not being equal in the war.

I think all this forever going circular argument about what is overmodeled and what isn't will simply go away as soon as each player in a server gets a limited number of pilots that he can use/loose - say, blue players get 2 pilots and 10 planes per map each, and reds get 10 pilots and 10 planes each (ratio may differ depending on particular year and war region)
Bit hard to implement though, keeping the fun at the same time.. I'm not gonna drop off a server if I run out of pilots, and if the total number of pilots is shared - then blue will be running out of pilots in no time as soon as someone not- so-skilled joins them and starts crashing after takeoff.
Maybe the score board should only show kills/points up to the point when the individual player runs out of his aloted "pilots"? Dunno..

The way things are right now is actually fine in some respects - whenever blue have the better planes on a particular map (which is on most early maps) - they all jump into fighters, and I particularly jump into an il2 and go after the ground targets. Things become unrealistic because most reds will also jump into fighters - rather than do the logical map winning thing and go for the ground pounders + a few fighters to keep the FWs and BFs busy... for a while. This way blue would automatically loose few pilots and planes, but lots of ground targets.
And if all ground targets had lots of small caliber flak arround them (which doesnt seem to be the case in the game), then things would be even more equal - the bf110/fw190F are quite less resistant than the Il2 to smaller calibers - so blue will still rather stick to fighters and protect their ground stuff rather than going for ground ponders in return..
Getting the Pe-2 as flyable airplane will also move things in the right direction.

I guess fending of fw190 atacks in an il2 is not much fun for most..well - it is for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Grey_Mouser67
09-06-2005, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
The Red side has Mustang MkIII which could be good but guns are pathetic...the P-38late is good with acceleration but the A-9, D-9, K-4, G6 A/S are all faster at sea level...

Sorry but I have to disagree. The Mk.III is a rocket at low and medium altitudes. 640km/h at SL is impressive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif no other plane except the jets and rocket interceptors can keep up with that. It's acceleration and climb-rate is also pretty good and its not hard to get away from a bandit giving chase. The trick for the Mk.III is to really surprise the enemy so you can get a clean and prolonged burst into your enemy at convergence (I use 200m).

And about the P38L_Late: It CERTAINLY can get away from any pursuing enemy if energy levels are similar at the beginning. Good climb, good dive, effective armament, awesome payload,... sounds good to me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are entitled to your opinion, but your signature belies your experience in the lightning and MustangIII....if you fly behind a fw and hit it at convergence with your .50's you might kill it 1 in 5 tries...and as you know, on teamspeak, you will seldom get a chance to camp on someone's six...I get the chance maybe 30% of the time...usually the other 70% someone calls to him, he sees/hears me or I'm B&Z which doesn't allow for a steady shot...especially with the pitch in a Mustang. I'm estimating...but I assure you that if the weapons were truly effective, a server like Warclouds would be crawling with Mustang MkIII's and it isn't and there is a reason...the same reason the PTO theatre was crawling with red pilots flying L model Lightnings and blue flying Ki-84's.

The P-38L has awesome acceleration, but it is not the speed demon on the maps...it'll do about 575km/hr on the deck, radiators open with the usual testing criteria and 595 km/hr with radiators closed...the Dora is faster and can run a full 13.5 minutes in overheat before engine damage...now the Lightning can run a long time at sea level with radiators open....last time I checked, the Dora was 600 or better and the K was even faster..

And so some virtual pilots want to continue to believe their elevated statistics are due to superior flying skill and teamwork.

Yesterday, I flew in a group of no less than 8 fighters on red team in the PTO...there is no lack of teamwork on red side....and I predict that the statistical advantage will swing to Red on that server and blue will continue to be outnumbered, outgunned etc... and it will be because the overall teamwork and flying ability of both sides are relatively equal but pilots will gravitate towards the best planes and the best planes will give an advantage to the team in an otherwise level playing field....

I find it amazing that after all these years flying this sim that there are so many people that still don't believe that over time, most servers will have a level playing field in terms of talent, skill and experience...the law of averages dictates this and that maps are won or lost based on how the objectives are aligned with the planeset and logistical situation....

A case in point was two maps with similar planesets...1943..planes...one map heavily favors blue and the other seems to be on Red's side....the differences? 1) Distance between bases...the long distance favored blue and the shorter favored red 2) location of the targets...the map with the targets right next to red base meant that blue climbed for a long ways before getting to the targets which were being protected by red team right next to their base at low altitude..what a turkey shoot and 3) the addition of one plane...the Spitfire Mk IXc...with the plane red team wins...with a spitfire Lf Mk Vb it loses...the plane sets pit P-47D10/22, P-38J Lightning and either a Spit MkV or IX depending vs Bf109G2, G6 and Fw190A5 or A6....Same pilots, same teamwork two different results...imagine that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jagdklinger
09-07-2005, 04:53 AM
I thought blue dominance was because blue team listens in on red comms?

WOLFMondo
09-07-2005, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:

Yesterday, I flew in a group of no less than 8 fighters on red team in the PTO...there is no lack of teamwork on red side....and I predict that the statistical advantage will swing to Red on that server and blue will continue to be outnumbered, outgunned etc... and it will be because the overall teamwork and flying ability of both sides are relatively equal but pilots will gravitate towards the best planes and the best planes will give an advantage to the team in an otherwise level playing field....


If you knew there was an inbalance on the teams why did you not switch? It really pisses me off then people complain about the team balance but do bugger all to sort the problem out.

Kuna15
09-07-2005, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I thought blue dominance was because blue team listens in on red comms?

http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/smileys/spy.gif http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/smileys/lol_1.gif

Kuna15
09-07-2005, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
It really pisses me off then people complain about the team balance but do bugger all to sort the problem out.

I must agree on that, but i am not pi$$ed about issue I'm just amused. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

For example I have joined server and there was 14 players on one side (blue) and 9 on red.
Next thing, before I've even choosen my base there is message from one blue player "please go red to balance teams". I have replied "Do you own this server?" and "why didn't you already switched red when you are so concerned about fair play". After that, of course, silence.

Lucius_Esox
09-07-2005, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by JimDG

And thats bourne out of ww2 history - spits/hurrys and soviet planes are designed this way to some extent because the available pilots were of poor quality and of poor knowledge what to ask for in a *war* plane; the german pilots had the whole Spanish civil war behind them + some polish and french experience in 1939-1941. The luftwaffe (pilots) started training for "real" war much earlier than the RAF/VVS/USAAF (of course

This is a quote from a Luftwaffe pilot who fought in the Battle of Britain

" Of course the RAF had some young and inexperienced pilots. But we had the feeling there was a strong backbone of very well trained and experienced pilots. The longer serving RAF pilots had considerable flying experience. We in the Luftwaffe did not have this advantage. Very few of those who fought on our side in the Battle of Britain had more than four years flying experience. Overall, we felt that we were dealing with an aircraft pilot combination as good as our own"

Oberleutnant Julius Neuman, ME 109 pilot.

Refs provided for the anal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That the RAF pilots were of generally inferior quality is a misnoma. My knowledge of Russian flyers is sketchy to say the least but I suspect there was a hardcore of "top" people present there as well...

It's the Superman myth all over again imho,, and it seems to want to replicate itself on Warclouds circa early 21st century lol.


I thought blue dominance was because blue team listens in on red comms?


Now who could that be???? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BBB_Hyperion
09-07-2005, 06:23 AM
Kuna15 who comes in last changes first or kick just simple as that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

BSS_CUDA
09-07-2005, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I thought blue dominance was because blue team listens in on red comms?

nah that was just Limpristo that did that, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif he couldn't get a kill the fair way, besides the rest of blue I've seen are honorable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

geetarman
09-07-2005, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hydra444:
I notice alotta times Red flyers "Lone-Wolfing" it.Where as on the Blues side,I have often noticed 2,3,sometimes even 4 Blues all covering one another and picking up whatever slack is left by each other.

Where did this myth get started?

I've been on Warclouds several times before, logged into Red TS. Everybody was working together as a team.

Blue has better kill/death ratios because:

- Blue has more effective fighter weapons. The Fw190 had/has nearly twice the weight of fire of a P-47.

- Many Red a/c are/were better performers at high altitude. This isn't good for a dogfight server.

- The Fw190 DM is screwed up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From a good blue pilot -this says it all re: 4.01.

Kuna15
09-07-2005, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Kuna15 who comes in last changes first or kick just simple as that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

he he that is exactly why I ask him first if he owns the server, he replied "no". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I thought blue dominance was because blue team listens in on red comms?

nah that was just Limpristo that did that, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif he couldn't get a kill the fair way, besides the rest of blue I've seen are honorable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Am I wrong or isn't it so that in war those who can intercept and listen in on enemy transmittions are called "intellegence"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Maybe that's why the US military intel didn't act on the intercepted messages about the inevitable attack on Pearl Harbour. It would have been "dishonourable". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz

Grey_Mouser67
09-07-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:

Yesterday, I flew in a group of no less than 8 fighters on red team in the PTO...there is no lack of teamwork on red side....and I predict that the statistical advantage will swing to Red on that server and blue will continue to be outnumbered, outgunned etc... and it will be because the overall teamwork and flying ability of both sides are relatively equal but pilots will gravitate towards the best planes and the best planes will give an advantage to the team in an otherwise level playing field....


If you knew there was an inbalance on the teams why did you not switch? It really pisses me off then people complain about the team balance but do bugger all to sort the problem out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rarely pay attention to the team balance because it swings...last night I was flying red and it got to the point where it was 11 vs 23 to blue advantage...I didn't like it so I left...couldn't take off anymore.

I do fly both sides but I let what I feel like flying for the day dictate...I doubt you'll see me flying Japanese aircraft though...just don't have any interest...

I find it an odd criticism though because it is rare that teams are ever equal...only degrees of being off...the difference to my knowledge was never greater than 5 planes.

Good thing I still have free choice! even though there are those that would have it otherwise.

Oh for the record...I was not complaining in either scenario...but there were many blue team players complaining in the PTO...in the WTO didn't see so much....team imbalance is part of the game...it is a game...but it sounds like you may have a gripe about it.

BSS_CUDA
09-07-2005, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I thought blue dominance was because blue team listens in on red comms?

nah that was just Limpristo that did that, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif he couldn't get a kill the fair way, besides the rest of blue I've seen are honorable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Am I wrong or isn't it so that in war those who can intercept and listen in on enemy transmittions are called "intellegence"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Maybe that's why the US military intel didn't act on the intercepted messages about the inevitable attack on Pearl Harbour. It would have been "dishonourable". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep in war when you break the enemy's code its called intelligence, but in this "GAME" when you've already been caught on the other teams comms and warned not to do it again its called cheating http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
and I think you need to stop listening to the Oliver Stone version of Pearl and read what really happened http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I thought blue dominance was because blue team listens in on red comms?

nah that was just Limpristo that did that, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif he couldn't get a kill the fair way, besides the rest of blue I've seen are honorable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Am I wrong or isn't it so that in war those who can intercept and listen in on enemy transmittions are called "intellegence"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Maybe that's why the US military intel didn't act on the intercepted messages about the inevitable attack on Pearl Harbour. It would have been "dishonourable". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep in war when you break the enemy's code its called intelligence, but in this "GAME" when you've already been caught on the other teams comms and warned not to do it again its called cheating http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
and I think you need to stop listening to the Oliver Stone version of Pearl and read what really happened http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All is fair in love and war. I see so many posts in here whining about realism, then when realism bites them where it hurts, it's just a game and that's cheating. If Hristo listened in on other comms and got the drop on the enemy then hats off to him and he's lucky he got a warning since in real life, he'd get a bullet after torture and interrogation.

BTW, who's Oliver Stone?

Fritz

Badsight.
09-07-2005, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
For example I have joined server and there was 14 players on one side (blue) and 9 on red.
Next thing, before I've even choosen my base there is message from one blue player "please go red to balance teams". I have replied "Do you own this server?" and "why didn't you already switched red when you are so concerned about fair play". After that, of course, silence. this is the single most pathetic thing i hate about DF rooms . its disgusting to see people ganging up on one side when its obvious that things are unbalanced

its so crazy

after a while of hosting DF rooms & seeing this , i just hosted allieds on Blue & Axis on Red . at least then i got a laugh before i kicked them out

man have i heard some LAME complaints over not switching sides , each time i see it i think
"what an 4sshole"

WOLFMondo
09-08-2005, 02:56 AM
I just wish there was an auto balance setting like 99% of all online games.

I know people will whine cause they can't fly there favorite plane all the time but why should those who rather see even teams have to put up with flying something other than there favorite ride all the time.

Pirschjaeger
09-08-2005, 02:56 PM
Just curious, when one formation met the enemy formation in real life, was balance the deciding factor? I mean, did one side dive in on another, then when seeing they outnumbered their enemy, their leader yells "Break off attack! Wingtip smoke! Don't upset them!".

C'mon guyz, how often was real life balanced?

You want realism? It doesn't show. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz

Kuna15
09-08-2005, 05:32 PM
I agree Fritz but if we allow heavy unbalance (in the planeset) on the server majority will go on stronger side be sure.
That would be historical of course but undoable online on regular basis IMHO.
Unless we recruit a bunch of masochysts on weaker side to even numbers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Pirschjaeger
09-08-2005, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
I agree Fritz but if we allow heavy unbalance (in the planeset) on the server majority will go on stronger side be sure.
That would be historical of course but undoable online on regular basis IMHO.
Unless we recruit a bunch of masochysts on weaker side to even numbers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Pirschjaeger
09-08-2005, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Just curious, when one formation met the enemy formation in real life, was balance the deciding factor? I mean, did one side dive in on another, then when seeing they outnumbered their enemy, their leader yells "Break off attack! Wingtip smoke! Don't upset them!".

C'mon guyz, how often was real life balanced?

You want realism? It doesn't show. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz

When I posted this it was 5:30 am. I had just returned from the clubs and was under the influence of about 20 Heinikens, or however it's spelt.

Now it's 10:35am and my framerates are measured in minutes. My world is slow this morning.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Fritz