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View Full Version : who use's the "pit" If they dont have too?



skarden
08-22-2006, 10:25 AM
When i play online(or anytime for that matter) i always use the cockpit view,it seem's to be the best way to play IL-2 since it's suppose to be a "simulation".
For me personally it's best to try and keep it as close as real life as possible to get the most fun out of it(and it IS a lot of fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

but after readin p-11.cAce's thread on the wonderwomen view i started wonderin how many will forsake realism(and to me some of the fun of the game) to win when givin the option?

I"v seen that most of the 4.05 server's have full realism,so it isnt an option there,but at the moment I'm stuck with 4.04 for a little while longer until i get 4.05,and most 4.04 server's give you the option to use either view.

So I thought i take a poll so that ppl can (hopefully! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif) reply honestly to without gettin flamed by the numerous ppl who seem to wait for such an opportunity to arise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
And satisfy my curiosity.

Cheers

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

F6_Ace
08-22-2006, 10:32 AM
The cockpit view is not the most realistic. After all, you can move your head in real life and/or you're not always a midget that cannot see over a bar that was never there.

I prefer to fly with cockpit off, though, as when I bag someone with a tricky shot in a 190, it massages my ego http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RaVe_N
08-22-2006, 10:37 AM
I only flew arcade/ wonder woman when I first started.it helps one learn how the AC handles and if your new to a sim its a big help in orientation to a sim.
But as years went bye I just found that it became so unchallenging that I derived no pride in my skill . Personally speaking, for only myself, I take much greater pride when I fly in full real servers its much more of a challenge and skillfull to take out the opponent in a full real server for one ACM's (air combat maneuvers) actually work and have an effect on the outcome of a dog fight also the use of stealth is much more effective so over all full pit has now become the only way I will ever fly a flight sim. Also I like the Idea of navigateing with compas headings it opens up a whole new chalenge for me.
also track Ir played a very big roll in the enjoyment of full real servers for.

LEBillfish
08-22-2006, 10:39 AM
I always fly with cockpit on, yet after a fight when I'm rtb'g and such will look external using F2....

To me it is "more" realistic then not....Yet more so, I simply lose all orientation without it and can't fly. Even insturments alone, the first no cockpit screen is difficult as without seeing part of the plane I lose all reference so simply flounder in the air.

However, I don't fly "no pit" servers in that it suddenly puts me at a great disadvantage.....Yet, rarely do no external servers as I miss all the eyecandy and it is VERY unrealistic as even in taking off you'd have some direction getting to the pad, or at least know the area.

What I'd like to see is F2, F6, & F7 be switchable functions...IOW, can make it so they don't work server side. That would eliminate much of the abuse that makes folks go no external.

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-22-2006, 10:46 AM
I always use fly 'pit-on'.

The only time I'm not in the pit is when I watch a track and I hop outside for better perspective, screenies etc,...



TB

DuxCorvan
08-22-2006, 10:59 AM
I'd like to use full cockpit along with those arrows of the WWV, which, IMHO, compensate for the lack of situational awareness inherent to the small range of view and natural head movement, but I can't.

F6_Ace
08-22-2006, 11:03 AM
I made the suggestion about having arrows with cockpit on a long time ago. After all, it would be nice to have the option available.

Instead, I prefer to press my F6 key every 0.000000000000000000001 seconds to make up for it.

Rjel
08-22-2006, 11:07 AM
When in the plane, I always fly with the cockpit on. But I like outside views enabled. This sim looks too good to me not to be able to enjoys it.

IAFS_Painter
08-22-2006, 11:10 AM
If I'm skinning I hop outside - it's impossible to check a skin if you don't look at it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If I'm checking a track, I hop outside

If I'm dead, I'll take a look around


If I'm flying combat, I stay in the pit even if there is an option to jump out.
I use TiR, and find WW view very dis-orientating if the sight is not visible.

IAFS_Painter
08-22-2006, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
I made the suggestion about having arrows with cockpit on a long time ago. After all, it would be nice to have the option available.

Instead, I prefer to press my F6 key every 0.000000000000000000001 seconds to make up for it.

You could script that - maybe not THAT frequently, but it'd be simple enough

Xiolablu3
08-22-2006, 11:19 AM
If the server allows qwonderwoman, then I use it, purely becasue you need all the help you can get in a dogfight.

I much prefer cockpit on tho and only usually fly pit-on servers.

You get so much more immersion from having cockpit on, flying wonderwoman just takes away the feeling of flying WW2 planes. Its like you are superman flying around with a couple of 20mm cannons strapped under your chest.

triad773
08-22-2006, 11:36 AM
I think because we lack the 6DOF, and depth perception cannot be rendered yet in this or any sim, it is a compensating effect to be able to change views. Just like 'icons on' gives one some compensation for judging distances when the icon is too small to see how far away another ship is, it helps.

Avont29
08-22-2006, 11:57 AM
when i play online i play with cockpit off, so i can get used to and get better at deflection shooting, then once i ge tbetter, i'll just stay in cockpit view

vocatx
08-22-2006, 12:19 PM
I've never tried 'pit off in this sim. I tried it once when I had CFS 3, and ended up getting disoriented and crashed.

I and a friend jumped into an arcade server one night and flew 'pit on. It was a lot of fun blasting guys out of sky. I agree with Billfish about floundering in the sky with 'pit off. A lot of the guys we saw had very poor aircraft control, probably due to bad situational awareness. On several occassions we were out-numbered two or three to one and shot down all attackers, then RTB-ed.

As for externals: in our nightly co-ops we have externals, but we have a gentlemens' agreement not to use it unless we have landed or are shot down. Plus, you aren't allowed to give advice to the other guys, such as when they are about to be attacked. It isn't easy to watch a bandit saddle someone up and not say something, but it's fun to watch the fight!

Ernst_Rohr
08-22-2006, 12:24 PM
I fly pit on all the time, but with externals enabled when flying offline, for screenshots and such.

I find it a lot more challenging to fly pit on and as close to full real as I can. I was flying 100% on Zeke vs Wildcat last night, and it was quite the challenge!

Bearcat99
08-22-2006, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Rjel:
When in the plane, I always fly with the cockpit on. But I like outside views enabled. This sim looks too good to me not to be able to enjoys it.

Me too.... but if I happen to be in an open pit server I will fly open pit. IMO they both have thier place and I don t think any better of myself or less of anyone else if they chose to fly differently.

leitmotiv
08-22-2006, 01:02 PM
Pit on is keeping with the challenge of the game.

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-22-2006, 01:05 PM
Where's RBJ?! Next to trim-on-a-slider, WW view was his legacy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Jaws2002
08-22-2006, 01:36 PM
I'll use whatever the server will allow me to use.

Offline is Pit on, unless i'm testing speeds.

skarden
08-22-2006, 07:50 PM
another thing about not usein the pit is how do you guys judge RPM in your aircraft??
I just recently learned about prop pitch and how to use it(yes I'm stil i noob http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif) mainly becouse i really like the 109 and found it was much more effective when the engine didnt blow up on take off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Do you guys use the sound? or is there an RPM gauge in the WW view?and what about the other stuff in the pit? like the ammo counter's and engine temp?I struggle with those things when i CAN see what they're doin,I cant imagine that it would be easier without those guages(or is it?)

mmmm either way i think I might have to start gettin use to usin the non cockpit view to keep an even playin field online as i get hammered a far bit when i jump on.I always figured it was becouse the other guys are so much better(which I'm pretty sure they are)but someone usin the non cockpit view against someone who does use the cockpit would have to have a pretty big advantage over them so maybe it's the way to go.
Cheers for indulging my curiosity guys.

Xiolablu3
08-22-2006, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Avont29:
when i play online i play with cockpit off, so i can get used to and get better at deflection shooting, then once i ge tbetter, i'll just stay in cockpit view

I used to play Wonder Woman all the time Avont.

This sim is very hard when you first start, its easy to get swamped if you try full dificulty right away.

Fly the easier settings to start with, you will naturally progress to the harder settings when you feel comfortable.

Once you feel comfortable with deflection shooting/flying in wonderwoman, then move onto cockpit view, it feels so muh more realistic and adds lots of immersion. Now I hate flying wonderwoman and love no icons, having to ID the plane you are shooting at first adds a whole new level of reality. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, I sent you a pm the other day about a couple of good beginner servers, did you get it? UYou didnt reply thats all.

Xiolablu3
08-22-2006, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
What I'd like to see is F2, F6, & F7 be switchable functions...IOW, can make it so they don't work server side. That would eliminate much of the abuse that makes folks go no external.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

RayBanJockey
08-22-2006, 08:30 PM
The problem with wonderworm view is that it simulates a pilot with only one eye. So it restricts your view of the outside world by about 20% than what it really should be in a true cockpit simulation (because a pilot with 2 eyes sees through a portion of the vertical edges of the cockpit bars). Sadly, I've seen the screenshots of cockpits in Battle of Britian (BoB) and they still haven't adressed this issue.

If you don't know what I mean then hold up 3 fingers together about 2 feet from your face, then look beyond them. See what it looks like with one eye closed and two eyes open. Voila!

Nobody ever has to use the cockpit, they can choose what server to play on. Me, I like to warm up in the cockpit servers (I master all settings, from dull real to unlimited ammo) then I throw the gloves off and duke it out in the cockpit-off servers. I'm sure if real WW2 pilots could turn the cockpit off, they would too, so why not? You only live once (supposedly)

Bandit.426Cdn
08-22-2006, 09:52 PM
*blink*

RBJ?

mortoma1958
08-22-2006, 10:05 PM
Why would anybody fly with no pit?? I have never fought, not even one single time against any plane, AI or human flown without the pit. The only time I have ever flown with no pit was to get true airspeed measurements. But I've never flown any air battle/dogfight without the pit, not even a QMB mission. Not no way, not no how. Not ever, never will. Simply not realistic. Real pilots have real cockpits, have to manuever to keep enemies in view. Even a six year old should be flying with the cockpit on!!! If I made a sim I would not allow such a wussy view.

NonWonderDog
08-22-2006, 10:52 PM
Wonderwoman view doesn't even give accurate TAS -- it actually shows groundspeed. There's really no reason at all for me to fly without the pit.

mazexx
08-22-2006, 11:07 PM
This is the place where I would normally put a sarcastic comment about full real beeing a stupid simulation of a pilot with a broken neck and a tight cone strapped on his head. But I have seen the light as I got my TrackIR yesterday... TrackIR really makes it possible to keep an eye on your six while chasing someone and keep you eyes on an opponent during a tight scissors fight, thus I say cockpit on all the time!

Longtime TrackIR pilots posting here saying that you're a looser if you play cockpit off should be ashamed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You may have forgotten how it was before you got your tir...

/Mazex

JamesBlonde888
08-22-2006, 11:56 PM
I always fly with it on but I usually have no idea what a lot of the stuff in there is since my cyrillic, finfish and german (etc) leave somewhat to be desired.

There is a much more exciting feeling from looking out of a cockpit over floating in a transparent bubble. Dogfighting is easier for me too although canopy frames are a real nuisance and I love to fly the 109.

Charos
08-23-2006, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by RayBanJockey:
You only live once (supposedly)

I thought he had been shot down since he was MIA so long.

#1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

CAF96th_Sillyak
08-23-2006, 12:05 AM
The only time I ever used the wonder woman view was when I was flying this biplane and couldnt see out of the thing. even if the server allows wonder woman view i wont use it simply because it takes away so much from the immersion of the game and makes you feel like you are flying some cheesy arcade game.

WOLFMondo
08-23-2006, 01:21 AM
me! cause I get disorientated without it. And WW has no fuel gauge.

F19_Ob
08-23-2006, 02:32 AM
I usually fly with pit on and icons off regardless of server nowadays.
I have no problem with others preferences.

Most fun are the pit-on servers like 'Zekes' because there are more serious and experienced players, wich often lead to spontanious formations and somtimes big-wings.
Once I took part in an formation of 18 or so Betty's attacking shipping.
That never happens on pitt-off servers.

The pitt-off servers tend to be more air-quake, and people there are in general more careless and just search furballs, wich can be a moments fun though.Simming-fastfood so to speak.

SeaFireLIV
08-23-2006, 04:10 AM
I went on a server once and I must have been flying around for half an hour before I realised it was no cockpit server. Funny thing was I never found harder flying with cockpit on against no=cockpit flyers. Most of the no cockpit flyers still have a terrible situation awareness. I carried on with cockpit on for a bit then left.

han freak solo
08-23-2006, 02:32 PM
For most of the planes, there is too much eye candy in the pit to turn pits off.

Who the f@k wants to look at a blank horizon anyway? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

p-11.cAce
08-23-2006, 03:25 PM
I guess the question really comes down to how much of an advantage is gained by using the "arrows" available with the pit off - in pit you do not have them and I think they are certainly advantageous. In 334th dedicated, for example, it is helpful with the pit off to zoom in on a dot and look away just until the arrow appears to determine if it is a friendly or not.

leitmotiv
08-23-2006, 06:54 PM
The only way to have a full appreciation of how much situational awareness you can have in a virtual cockpit is to get the latest TrackIR and use it in the 6 DOF cockpits of BATTLE OF BRITAIN II or FS2004. You can twist around your cockpit to look for "the hun in the sun," look around your back armor and over your plane's spine, and move right up to your gunsight as if you were putting your face up to it. This is truly amazing. Unfortunately the Maddox cockpits are not even close to this level of realism. The Maddox cockpits do make you feel like you are in a staightjacket. I was amazed at how well I was able to track a 109 in BBII (it still managed to creep up on my tail and bash me, but I had relaxed my vigilance---"eternal vigilance or eternal rest" as Jimmy Flatley put it). With this kind of visibility you really begin to think your survival depends on constant sky watching.

gdfo
08-24-2006, 04:43 AM
I only Play on servers that offer limited options. Cockpit on speed bar and mostly no icons. Some do not have speed bar or icons. It is sometimes the toughest but I think you can learn faster that way.

BaronUnderpants
08-24-2006, 04:43 AM
Putting aside the usuall ranting about Full real vs WW i mostly fly WW myselfe ( fly FR now and then, depending on map, prefrebly with somekind of icons ) Why? First, because personally i think WW evens out the playing for everyone, we all have the same advanteges/dissadvanteges, its up to your own FLYING skill, SA and so on...no stupid wiew dissadvantege that gets u killed 9/10 of the times. The lack of cooperation, Headless chicken DF`s and so on isnt exclusive for WW servers as far as iv have seen.

Second: As for the lack of wiews in this game, there are issues that makes the playingfield univen beside Track IR. WE are all differant people with differant hands we are delt with. Im for one can proppably never be an real ace in a FR server, (Even thoug i can hold my own ) Track IR or not, why? Simply because i "suffer" from a pretty commen "illness", namly colorblindness ( giggle here ). In a summer map no Tir in the world will help me find what i cant see, and i KNOW im not the only one.

So like someone said before, just because U find it easy, have the latest stick/rudderpeddals/slider/Track IR/ 20/20 eyesight, doesnt mean u are better than the flying targets u shoot down...it means u have ALL the advanteges.

Advanteges that most of the time means squat in a WW server.

Sooner or later i will get Track IR myslfe, if not before atleast til BoB gets out simply because i want to try a new demension to this game, not becuse that gives me the "right" to diss thoose "noobs" who prefere a differant way of playing.

major_setback
08-24-2006, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I'd like to use full cockpit along with those arrows of the WWV, which, IMHO, compensate for the lack of situational awareness inherent to the small range of view and natural head movement, but I can't.

I approve of this post. ( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif).

major_setback
08-24-2006, 05:52 AM
Pit 'off' can also be challenging. It can be very disorientating flying with the pit off, especially if you are using padlock and can't see the sight, or don't have any cockpit reference to tell you where you are facing.
Also you can't easily judge how much you are jinxing/slipping/yawing with no reference point (such as a window frame) between yourself and the rest of the world.

I'm glad we have the option for both cockpit views. Both have their advantages, cockpit off isn't necessarily easier than cockpit on.

Bearcat99
08-24-2006, 07:02 AM
The arrows are the biggest turn off to open pit for me... if I am flying open pit I prefer it with no icons.... or closed pit with icons.. but I HATE those stinking arrows.... You dont really have to even watch attitude speed and direction of the enemy.. just follow the arrow.... No thanks..

Chuck_Older
08-24-2006, 07:13 AM
I hate no cockpit mode. I am disoriented with no visual reference as to where my virtual body would sit, which the pit provides, and the no cockpit gauges are not historically accurate. Where are my undercarriage indicators in the WW mode? Where are my ammo counters? I disagree that no pit makes up for the inaccuracies of no being able to see around bars and somesuch. That problem has existed as long as flight sims have been around, this sim is not the first to encounter the problem

In addition, since I have been interested in flight since I was child, losing the cockpit robs a plane of character. This may as well be Tie Fighter v XWing if all I cared about was zooming around and shooting stuff

WWMaxGunz
08-24-2006, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
The cockpit view is not the most realistic. After all, you can move your head in real life and/or you're not always a midget that cannot see over a bar that was never there.


Pilot had to lean forward and down to put his eye in line with the Revi light.
The bar was always there. It should not be seen due to refraction which is not modelled.

You like to fly no cockpit? And yet the sig. Funny but I've never used F6. Don't you
have to be flying with externals on to use that?

Jaws2002
08-24-2006, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by RayBanJockey:
The problem with wonderworm view is that it simulates a pilot with only one eye. So it restricts your view of the outside world by about 20% than what it really should be in a true cockpit simulation (because a pilot with 2 eyes sees through a portion of the vertical edges of the cockpit bars). Sadly, I've seen the screenshots of cockpits in Battle of Britian (BoB) and they still haven't adressed this issue.

If you don't know what I mean then hold up 3 fingers together about 2 feet from your face, then look beyond them. See what it looks like with one eye closed and two eyes open. Voila!

Nobody ever has to use the cockpit, they can choose what server to play on. Me, I like to warm up in the cockpit servers (I master all settings, from dull real to unlimited ammo) then I throw the gloves off and duke it out in the cockpit-off servers. I'm sure if real WW2 pilots could turn the cockpit off, they would too, so why not? You only live once (supposedly)

Missed ya. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Do you still have that fancy avatar of yours somewhere? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Freelancer-1
08-24-2006, 07:36 AM
Hmmmm...

Wonder Women view, huh?

Never tried it. Sounds kinda dumb to me. I didn't buy a Quakewar2 fps game. I bought a WW2 air combat simulator.

So I'll fly it that way, thank you.

Worf101
08-24-2006, 08:01 AM
I started out offline like a kitten. No take offs, no landings, WW view and unlimited ammo. I got a lot of medals had a lot of fun. As I "grew" into the game and after I joined the Redtails I HAD to learn how to take off, land (on carriers even), shoot with limited ammo and bomb accuately when you don't have unlimited bombs to drop.

I also had to ditch the WW as the squadron didn't fly that way. This became much easier once I got Track IR to work properly. So now about the only thing I use is the occaisional external view. I also won't turn dowon icons if I can get them, my eyes ain't what they used to be.

Da Worfster

major_setback
08-24-2006, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


You like to fly no cockpit? And yet the sig.

I don't know if this refered to my sig, but It simply means I have a good (true) aim, or at least hope to. Nothing to do with prefering 'full real', which is perfecly OK too. Play it however you want - you bought it.

Jaws2002
08-24-2006, 08:15 AM
Is funny how many guys are here that think that if they fly only pit on they are so much better then the "inferior pit off guys".

Skill has nothing to do with pit on or off. I play both , this days mostly on, but I'll tell you, there are so many people in pit off servers that would wipe the floor with some of this "I fly cockpit on and you are an inferior race" guys.

I agree that pit on is the natural way of playing but, there are things you'll learn much faster in pit off, while having fun. As a new guy to the game you'll be able to put up a fight much faster if playing in pit off. You'll find a fight much faster and you'll learn to adapt to certain situations.
I met online people that fly only locked pit for years, trumpet the full difficult all day and I was shocked how clueless they were in a fast close dogfight, or how quick I was able to drain all the energy out of them. And I'm not that good "pilot".

On top of that is the hardware issue. In locked pit you need better machine to run the game. First you lose lot of FPS from the pit, then if you have a big screen you have a huge advantage. Much easier to see those small dots.
On top of that TIR is another barier. If you don't have it you'll need a lot of hat switches for the views.

Let's not forget the beauty of the game. I love watching planes in fly-by. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

I don't care what settings people like to fly. This is a game and one should play it the way he gets most fun out of it. If pit off gives you more fun so be it. If you like locked pit good for you, but that doesn't make you any better then the other guy.

p-11.cAce
08-24-2006, 08:35 AM
The interesting thing for me is that this was never really an issue until I started using my TIR online. I had not played online for a long time due to lack of highspeed connection and until last week had not flown online with my TIR. Online I had often flown WW if the server allowed it but when I tried that with my TIR I suddenly could not fly! Without reference to a pit or the sight (which is always snapped to front with the hat switch) I found it impossible to orient myself. This got me thinking about the pros and cons of WW vs using the pit. I agree that locked pit is more realistic but I still feel that in a non-locked pit server the guy using ww has the advantage over someone in their pit. I also think it is a fallacy to assume that WW users only use WW view - I, for example, use the pit for takeoff, landing, and most flying - switching to WW when entering a fight and then switching back to the pit afterwards.

Charos
08-24-2006, 08:37 AM
Ah what the heck, Im dragging her out of the closet for another spin. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


I am wonder woman , watch me soar

I am wonder woman , watch me soar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I see too much to go and not pretend
cause I've been blinded by bars before
And I've been down there on the cockpit floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again

CHORUS
Oh yes I am Invisible
But it's Invisibility born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
I wont be shot down again
If I have to, I will do anything
I am uber (uber)
My planes invisible (invisible)
I am wonder woman

You can shoot but never change me
cause it only serves to derange me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a noob any longer
cause you've deepened the scar on my soul

CHORUS
I am wonder woman, watch me buy it
cockpit bars I just wont try it
As I spread my crate far across the land
But I'm still an embryo
With a long long way to go
Until I make my full switch brother understand

Oh yes I am Invisible
But it's Invisibility born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
I wont be shot down again
If I have to, I will do anything
I am uber (uber)
My planes invisible (invisible)
I am wonder woman
Oh, I am wonder woman
I am invisible
I am uber

FADE
I am wonder woman
I am invisible
I am uber
I am wonder woman

Saburo_0
08-24-2006, 10:14 AM
I like the pit on so I feel like I'm in a 109, or Yak or whatever. No problems if people want to fly without it to me tho. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif