PDA

View Full Version : NtBS-tactics



F19_Orheim
09-06-2006, 08:01 PM
I would say that we too often talk about T/B and B&Z tactics.... Lately we have read about E-retention... but we forget that one of the MOST important tactics is NtBS (Not to be seen)-tactics, which is very dependent of the advisaries SA (Situational Awareness).

This you can forget when offline flying, the AI will see you even in those white fluffy things we like to call clouds.

B&Z tactics is one approach to NtBS (where T/B is not), but also to go low to target when enemy is high, enter clouds when threatened from above or getting on someone's low six are important uses of this tactic.

The best way to understand the value of NtBS tactics is to view http://www.tristatevelo.com/images/arrow.gif THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do6hTwZ6Un8) educational video. Here you will understand the consequences of Beeing seen in contrast to NOT beeing seen.

Discuss.
-Are clouds obvious hiding places and which cloud should you use?

- Informants in your team and their mistake when chatting in wrong channel revealing their friendlies.

- How to deal with informants.

ColoradoBBQ
09-06-2006, 09:28 PM
As a rule, you should never fly into a cloud, someone else may be occupying the same cloud.

F19_Orheim
09-06-2006, 09:29 PM
or hide in a shrubbery?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

iQv_nuclear
09-06-2006, 09:47 PM
How can you hide in a shrubbery? I would like to see you try.

I think you have a nice point, but I also think that surprise is a bonus; just another advantage. Height, speed, and surprise, surprise being last for a reason. If you can position yourself in the sun and set up a nice attack, that's nice, a good bonus. If you, for some odd reason, are flying rediculously low.. actually never mind. I can't find a good reason to be hiding in clouds waiting to surprise someone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In the time it takes to set up a decent attack in the cloud you could have gained precious altitude, which is more useful.

But don't listen to me, wait for better pilots. I suck.

LEBillfish
09-06-2006, 10:08 PM
Clouds I use more as shields as once in them you can lose your opponent.

As far as Chat goofs, I'll often in army chat remind they need to switch, then add more information in open chat, sometimes the actual plan even if I think they'll take it as misinformation, then switch back.

You're saying informants as though deliberate, if so, I announce to the team to break off and let the enemy feast on him......and alter what we're doing.


Originally posted by iQv_nuclear:
How can you hide in a shrubbery? I would like to see you try.

I think you have a nice point, but I also think that surprise is a bonus; just another advantage. Height, speed, and surprise, surprise being last for a reason. If you can position yourself in the sun and set up a nice attack, that's nice, a good bonus. If you, for some odd reason, are flying rediculously low.. actually never mind. I can't find a good reason to be hiding in clouds waiting to surprise someone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In the time it takes to set up a decent attack in the cloud you could have gained precious altitude, which is more useful.

But don't listen to me, wait for better pilots. I suck.

Actually, it's not a bonus, it is an imperative as the second you are seen you can be hit back. Most air combat kills by a rediculous margin were made in single strafing passes by an enemy unseen by the victim.

If you get in a spot where seen, even if you have the advantage your opponent can evade, and if done well turn the tables. Better if seen to work yourself into a position of being unseen, then attack..........Or sometimes simply moving on.

Personally, if I see an opponent passing on one side of a cloud, I'll skirt the opposite side and attack just past normally behind. My personal preference for attack however will ALWAYS be, a diving attack far behind my opponent, passing his altitude and using my now superior speed and E to attack low his six....(think maybe 5-4 oclock low) with the intention being to shoot on the climb aiming for the edge of his prop right up the center, and continue my E climb as High as I can go, rolling on my back preparing for a second pass if needed.

If in a turning fight (as I fly a lot of better turning craft)....I'll try and keep 4 o'clock low his 6 eeve if it means a wider turn. I'll also always hold my fire till at the optimum range..........Often that resulting in the pilot thinking he has lost me...........Yet on rare occassions will use my light guns to let him know where I am, yet manuever him into a position I want (think of hearding http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

Yet at all times I'll take a single pass kill if I can, as the second it turns into a fight, not an attack you can lose.

VW-IceFire
09-06-2006, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
or hide in a shrubbery?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Next to the picket fence. But not too tall!

Feathered_IV
09-06-2006, 10:13 PM
I usually try to avoid silhouetting myself against cloud. Or flying so low over water that I leave a visible wake...

sudoku1941
09-06-2006, 10:45 PM
My favorite tactic using clouds is this one, and it works far more often than not:

You have a bogie on your six (hopefully not in gun range, but a danger nonetheless) and you see a cloud. Perfect. You dive for it. As you near the cumulous savior, start doing banks and slight turns in a pattern that the enemy can pick up on. Left....right....left... right... or whatever is expedient to also help you avoid any gunfire that might be coming your way.

Then, as you enter the cloud, sell that last bank/turn for a good few seconds... and then reverse it suddenly and pull for the heavens. More often than not, when you emerge from top of the cloud, the enemy will have "guessed" your direction from your "predictable" setup maneuvers, and will have gone the wrong way. Also he might have lost sight and gotten totally confused. If I had a dollar for each time this worked like a charm and actually allowed me to get on my pursuer's six for an easy, close range kill, I'd have a nice chunk of change.

Or, if there is some expedient place for you to disengage to, like towards friendlies, or friendly ship AAA, or simply toward your home base... then as you make for the cloud, sell that you're egressing in a different direction... then, when you reach the cloud, break for the more sensible egress direction.

LEBillfish
09-06-2006, 11:12 PM
p.s...........You can actually VERY easily lose our AI in the clouds, or even by getting in a blind spot....They seem to work a lot like padlock with a few seconds of looking around after.........If they don't find you they move on.

F19_Orheim
09-07-2006, 03:41 AM
what about the shrubbery?

Sudooku,,, pretty much the same tactics As I use when heading for clouds... sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Important though is NOT to stand up!

WOLFMondo
09-07-2006, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by ColoradoBBQ:
As a rule, you should never fly into a cloud, someone else may be occupying the same cloud.

I've never collided with someone in a cloud! I find them damn useful online when trying to get somewhere when I don't want to be seen.

Henkie_
09-07-2006, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
B&Z tactics is one approach to NtBS (where T/B is not)

what? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

One of my favourites is to keep disappearing below BnZ-ers noses in a TnB plane. Ofcourse just before they want to squeeze that trigger.

In case you haven't noticed. That's one big place to hide below all those cockpit dials and gauges.

Doesn't really matter if the BnZ-er can see you later, as long as you can keep disappearing below their noses before they fire, they can never hit you.

F19_Orheim
09-07-2006, 06:51 AM
What about the neighbour then?

Henkie_
09-07-2006, 07:10 AM
What about yellow ribbons tied to oak trees? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Kuna_
09-07-2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Doesn't really matter if the BnZ-er can see you later, as long as you can keep disappearing below their noses before they fire, they can never hit you. And if you R/T your buddy of your position, there is a high chance that bandit will get surprised himself and likely shot down.

One cannot defend himself if he is not awared of attack.

That is why I always consider surprise as main part of the attack.
If surprise part went good, remaining enemy has usually no other option but to either flee or die.

I've seen many times that experienced player can defend himself very very well against superior position attacks (call it bnz) and if I didn't get him in first pass, and am alone in many cases I'll just disengage.

About bnz defense well I've never saw better than this (Henkie's track):
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/790...501026574#8501026574 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7901020574?r=8501026574#8501026574)

Henkie_
09-07-2006, 07:28 AM
exactly.

Target fixation is another phenomenon to exploit. Also not restricted to just BnZ-ers if I may add!!

SA problems have been exploited since the beginning of aircombat simming. Nothing new under the sun.

There's lots of ways to cause SA problems. In fact FB in itself is already one big SA problem on FR settings.