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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:39 AM
Sorry but I just has to tease some. I am on a silly moode today.

here it is, I have noticed many here thrust Toms hardware...

I quote:

Tom has removed FX from the guides...
This might be old stuff since it is posted on THG on the 22. of September, but interesting nonetheless (searched but couldn't find a similar thread).

THGC Graphics Card Buyers' Guide (22/Sep/2003):

"Special GeForce FX notes: All GeForce FX cards are temporarily removed from this buyers' guide due to their serious performance problems in Half Life 2 and unimpressive performance with other DX9 games. If Detonator 50 driver solves the problems without cheating, we will again add GeForce FX series cards in this buyers' guide.

Till then, avioid all GeForce FX cards by all means. "

Link: http://www.community.tomshardware.c...lapsed&sb=5


I am so sorry, I am so sorry couldn´t help it... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif You shouldn´t kick a dead dog...

Come on, let the flaming begin /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:39 AM
Sorry but I just has to tease some. I am on a silly moode today.

here it is, I have noticed many here thrust Toms hardware...

I quote:

Tom has removed FX from the guides...
This might be old stuff since it is posted on THG on the 22. of September, but interesting nonetheless (searched but couldn't find a similar thread).

THGC Graphics Card Buyers' Guide (22/Sep/2003):

"Special GeForce FX notes: All GeForce FX cards are temporarily removed from this buyers' guide due to their serious performance problems in Half Life 2 and unimpressive performance with other DX9 games. If Detonator 50 driver solves the problems without cheating, we will again add GeForce FX series cards in this buyers' guide.

Till then, avioid all GeForce FX cards by all means. "

Link: http://www.community.tomshardware.c...lapsed&sb=5


I am so sorry, I am so sorry couldn´t help it... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif You shouldn´t kick a dead dog...

Come on, let the flaming begin /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:45 AM
Here we go again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:47 AM
i bought a fx 5200 and it "seams" ok to me but i dont really fallow that stuff it was the first grafix card i ever bought and i only bought nvidia because thats what was in the com before could i have gotten something better fore the same price?(250 us)

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 12:06 PM
Well I took a gamble today and I'am now the proud owner of a ATI 9800pro card, so far so good.

My first attempt at running a ATI card was a complete disaster however after much debate we concluded that it was probably due to it's being a first revision card.

This one is running fine so far even without a full windows reinstall. I will give it some time then I will do a full reformat and see if I get a boost in performance.

Fingers crossed

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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 12:08 PM
I am so sorry, I am so sorry couldn´t help it...

You are a sadist... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 12:18 PM
I think these Nvidia VS ATI are getting quite like this game and the blue vs red debates...or even RL

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/falcofb.jpg>

JerseyD
09-29-2003, 12:21 PM
There is a legend about this guy,he goes by RBG or RJB or something.
Anyway he knows everything about this stuff.I have a feeling he might post here soon then all our questions will be answered.This guy is all knowing! A genius I tell you!!!
Anyway he'll likely be poping in here soon to enlighten us/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I can hardly wait

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Message Edited on 09/29/0308:25AM by JerseyD

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 01:27 PM
I bet this tread gets about 50 or more responds/i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif
(If not I'll help it , so I cant loose/i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif )

<center> http://www.uploadit.org/files/060903-avia_036.jpg1.jpg <center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red">[b] http://www.uploadit.org/files/070903-flugzeug4.gif <marquee> <FONT COLOR="red">[b]
<font color="red">I</font> <font color="blue">c</font><font color="green">a</font><font color="orange">n</font>
<font color="yellow">d</font><font color="pink">o</font> <font color="purple">c</font><font color="red">o</font><font color="blue">l</font><font color="lime">o</font><font color="yellow">r</font> /i/smilies/16x16_robot-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 01:38 PM
My fan can´t read,even when it´s from Nvidia?

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1064771027.jpg

JerseyD
09-29-2003, 01:45 PM
Hey whats going on? that links deader than a doornail!!!

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J¨rsé¿D¨v*L

<a href=http://www.diskworks.com/myth.html>The Jersey Devil (Fact or Fiction?)</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 01:46 PM
<center> <img src=http://www.geocities.com/g8tr45/trimuph.txt>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 02:09 PM
lol steve, I love triumph, even when he berates me.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
btw, my OC Systems 9700 Pro 128Mb Level 3 works great!

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Hawgdog
09-29-2003, 03:06 PM
steve_v wrote:
- <center> <img
- src=http://www.geocities.com/g8tr45/trimuph.txt>


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
http://members.chello.se/ven/sour.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 03:16 PM
We should introduce new category: NVidiawhinners!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 05:32 PM
Maj_Kursula wrote:
- We should introduce new category: NVidiawhinners!

nvidia winners or nvidia whiners? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

And yep this thread is perfect to poop on, ain´t it funny? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
09-29-2003, 05:44 PM
Did you lose the link to the HL forum again? This is the FB forum. You know, A DX8 game.

Keep trying to stir up crap though. It's cute../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 05:45 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Did you lose the link to the HL forum again? This is
- the FB forum. You know, A DX8 game.

Heavy artillery has arrived /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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adlabs6
09-29-2003, 05:49 PM
At least these threads are a change from the million year old padlock or full real debates. No less controversy, but still...

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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 08:02 PM
Did Tom benchmarked with Forgotten Battles?

Why ATI fans are that desperate?

To justify their money spent on soon-to-be-forgotten-VGA? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


If Lock-on & HL2 attack us, we are all crap. Even 9800 can't survive. We're in same boat.

Did Valve told you 9800 runs smooth in HL2? They're lying. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 08:16 PM
Tom wrote:

-due to
- their serious performance problems in Half Life 2
- and unimpressive performance with other DX9 games.

FX series plays todays game at a resonable frame rate.
Tomorrow is another day/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11819

Master

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:05 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Did you lose the link to the HL forum again? This is
- the FB forum. You know, A DX8 game.


Yes but it's an interesting information. Not everybody changes his graphics card every week as you do. Buy a GF FX thinking in the future looks like a bad idea, nothing wrong in warning people.

Yes, a little OT but who cares...



|TAO|

Buzz_25th
09-29-2003, 10:09 PM
I don't buy a vid card every week. I switched from the 9800 fast, because I didn't like it. I have no plans on changing the 5900.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:18 PM
Here is the full link... It was broken apparently http://www.community.tomshardware.com/forum/showflat.m?Cat=&Board=comp_graphics&Number=505591&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5

Tomorrow is already here. Halo is already here and most importantly Half Life 2 will definiatly be here by holiday season this year. If it wasn´t for the hardware problem with the nvidia cards I would guess we would see both DOOM 3 and HL 2 already out since Valve admitted they spent five times more optimizing for the FX series than for the ATI.

And ATI fans being desperate these days??? Oh man look at the nvidia forums everywhere??? All are praying for the NV40 to fix everything that´s currently wrong with the FX series. (The unreasonable ones who can´t imagine getting any other video card than nVidia regardless of performance).

Hell if I want to play DOOM 1 I can just put my old voodoo 2 card in. I can get fps in DOOM in the 100 with that beauty :P

But I am only a sadist being happy with my RMA ti-4600 to 9700 PRO free of charge conversion still beats 5900 ULTRA in the games that matters http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Come on guys you are being to nice, flame on! Where is RBJ when you need him?

I don´t think anyone would have a problem with the FX series if they where advertised as dx 8 videocards not dx 9++ as they currently are...



Message Edited on 09/29/0309:20PM by oeqvist

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-29-2003, 10:21 PM
OMG, not again...

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:40 PM
The maturity level is severely ovemodelled.

Here is correct NACA data, overlayed in blue.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/sour.jpg

Tests have show that the maturity spike near the high end of the post count is due to the first part of the FW-190 view study.


Message Edited on 09/29/0303:44PM by StG77_Fennec

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-29-2003, 10:49 PM
ROFLOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:53 PM
Sorry someone got you to it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

StG77_Fennec wrote:
- The maturity level is severely ovemodelled.
-
- Here is correct NACA data, overlayed in blue.
-
- http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/sour.jpg
-
- Tests have show that the maturity spike near the
- high end of the post count is due to the first part
- of the FW-190 view study.

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 10:58 PM
No video game will be released that doesn't work well on an Nvidia card.

In contrast, plenty of video games are released that don't work well on ATI cards (as evidenced by constant patches that note ATI bug fixes)

I am not worried about FX5900. I'll never own one anyway. I will take a serious look at the FX5700 next month though.



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adlabs6
09-29-2003, 11:05 PM
LOL @ Fennec

Still, what does this garbage matter? I have never, ever, ever been able to run any "brand new" game at max settings, max resolution, and max FSAA and AF. So what? I will just run the game the best I can, which means with some detail sliders turned down.

If HL2 is any good, I may buy it since the original was enjoyable for me. According to some of the tests so far, HL2 can average between 20 and 30 fps on an FX5600 in DX8.1 mode. Heck, that's faster than I played the original half life! And I must assume that all the settings are *HIGH* for these tests, so I should do even better if I drop the detail abit.

Believe me, if I can smoke along in a brand new game at over 30fps on average, then I won't be complaining that the DX9 HDR halos etc. aren't showing.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
09-29-2003, 11:07 PM
Jepp. Only a few games with DX9 support are being released in the coming month, or at the beginning of 2004.

Still, this is no guarantee, these programs will work better with ATi. Don't get me wrong, I'm an ATi-Fan all the way, but the driver-support from ATi really sux.
If I only remember those days, when AmericasArmy was released and ATi drivers weren't able to show the fog in the game with older Radeon-Versions.

I wish some of those ATi-fanatics would remember this and open their eyes for ATi has still problems with some games (RavenShield, for example)

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


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XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 11:47 PM
FX card can give you frame rate on-a-slinder. To bad the slider is stuck on "slow as hell" in DX9 stuff. We will see how good these Det 50's are. Currently im running an Ati 9500 and love it.

RayBanJockey wrote:
- No video game will be released that doesn't work
- well on an Nvidia card.
-
- In contrast, plenty of video games are released that
- don't work well on ATI cards (as evidenced by
- constant patches that note ATI bug fixes)
-
- I am not worried about FX5900. I'll never own one
- anyway. I will take a serious look at the FX5700
- next month though.
-


No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

Buzz_25th
09-29-2003, 11:57 PM
I'm more concerned about past/present games that the 9800 run like crap. Than I am about future games that the 5900 MIGHT not run.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Cpt.LoneRanger
09-30-2003, 12:38 AM
Agreed, Buzz.

I don't care about games that will be released in the future that I possibly cannot play in full detail, while other games, that I play don't run on the otehr gfx-card.

This is really ridiculous and unfair, btw.

9800pro is fast, yes, but not on any system and definately not with every game (got 3 times the FPS in UT2k3-Benchmark over 9800pro with my GF4Ti4800SE and omega-drivers)

I allready heared something like "Well, that's a cheating driver that makes the cards faster on some games, slower on others.", but where's the difference to ATi???

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 01:46 AM
well i read the toms doom3 bench marks 5900 came out on top http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, by the time hl2 comes out the next wave of vid cards will ither be out or on their way, i see no point in buying top of the line video cards ild rather wait till there are alot of games that need them before i will buy a new card, my mx440 dose the job now gives me good frame rates with my 2400xp. Also i run linux for games on the q3 engine gives me much higher frame rates, ati linux support isnt great.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 01:54 AM
You know , I have never seen something like this.. like here .

Someone is trying to let us , the gamers know that there is a problem with a video card. And then they get pounded , Not just in this thread but others...

The chip does not handle DX 9 and that is not good.. as the new games come out using it then the ones who did not care will scream like crazy..

There were no payoffs to make nvidia not work with it , it just does not work at this time.. Now they may fix it with drivers or the sort.. But who know..

This is why after using nvidia cards for years I went to ATI .
They where stable and fast.. now nvidia has fast and very good stuff.. it just is not running DX9 very well at all..

If some one wants to have one knowing that , great no problem . But don't keep trashing the ones who are trying to let others know what is up..

Buzz_25th
09-30-2003, 02:18 AM
Here is one of the advantages to buying a Falcon system. I just called them to see what they were going to say about this. Here's what they told me.

When HL2 shows up, and the 5x,xx drivers don't let the 5900 Ultra run the game as it should. They will swap me the latest ATI card that is out at that time for free. So i'm not worried about running future games one way or the other.

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 02:22 AM
Tom's site sucs

It use to be good many moons ago

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:18 AM
Cess-Harpoon wrote:
- You know , I have never seen something like this..
- like here .
-
-
- Someone is trying to let us , the gamers know that
- there is a problem with a video card. And then they
- get pounded , Not just in this thread but others...


Wrong. Someone is a little trolling fanboy who makes bogus claims like saying ATI's drivers are better. Even if ATI cards do better than Nvidia'a in a game that won't be released for months, they'll probably still have all the problems they are known for in the past (documented)

If you play games, stick with Nvidia. If you go bug hunting, ATI is the way to go.

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:30 AM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:51 AM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- Jepp. Only a few games with DX9 support are being
- released in the coming month, or at the beginning of
- 2004.
-
- Still, this is no guarantee, these programs will
- work better with ATi. Don't get me wrong, I'm an
- ATi-Fan all the way, but the driver-support from ATi
- really sux.
- If I only remember those days, when AmericasArmy was
- released and ATi drivers weren't able to show the
- fog in the game with older Radeon-Versions.
-
- I wish some of those ATi-fanatics would remember
- this and open their eyes for ATi has still problems
- with some games (RavenShield, for example)
-

Well if ATI drivers sucks what can you say about nVidias /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Tell me any computer company that got better drivers than the Radeons right now. There is a reason they top the whql-ranking...

Quite a few games and expect a big amount of titles based on the source engine in 2004 especially. Just about every major fps, 3D rpg and such will be dx 9 in 2004. Stalker, and more and more and more. The list is quite long.

As well as probably all EA titles and most other big publishers. Not to mention all titles running the DOOM III engine but that will sure take a while since DOOM III is delayed and delayed and delayed.

Sure you can crap on any drivers since noone is perfect but some are better than others... And believe me 95 % of the driver problems are due to game developers rushing their products and not beta testing their products properly. Time is money you know...

So if you want flawless drivers by a console and forget about pc gaming.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:03 AM
I don't care!!!
All my favourite games are in OpenGL and as long as Il-2,Nascar and Gp Legends hike it on my 5900 I'm happy./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

(trying to convince myself) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


F19_Choocky

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:14 AM
Agreed, Buzz.
-
- I don't care about games that will be released in
- the future that I possibly cannot play in full
- detail, while other games, that I play don't run on
- the otehr gfx-card.

But if you buy a modern video card you may want to buy the newest games too? Not all are flight sim junkies and only play IL 2 FB for 5 years before going to the next game...
-
- This is really ridiculous and unfair, btw.

The 5900 ULTRA is a dx 9 video card so why is it unfair using dx 9 tests with this card. It´s after all got more dx 9 functions than the 9800 PRO so if that would be the case it would be the opposite?
-
- 9800pro is fast, yes, but not on any system and
- definately not with every game (got 3 times the FPS
- in UT2k3-Benchmark over 9800pro with my GF4Ti4800SE
- and omega-drivers)

3 times the fps with your magic ti-4800 se??? The cheating nVidia drivers generally only boost a 20 % performance thanks to it´s no trilinear filtering. But I guess you are a fps guy and not a IQ guy so you probably run at 800x600x16 with no aa and anisotropic so your cpu do all the work. Look at benchies in UT 2K3 and see how many favours the ti-4800se against newer nVidia or Radeon video cards /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Most would see the 9800 PRO being 3 times as fast as the ti-4800se /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- I allready heared something like "Well, that's a
- cheating driver that makes the cards faster on some
- games, slower on others.", but where's the
- difference to ATi???

Well ATI don´t cheat. They don´t force you to run game specific optimizations. They don´t sacrifice image quality for speed it´s as simple as that. They don´t alter the shaders whereas nVidia do. They det 50 is actually their worst cheating drivers ever. The det 45 has better IQ then these.

Anyway I read an interview and it seems like nVidia is on a retreat. They said that video cards isn´t there prime market anymore. They will put more efforts in their other products like nforce mainboards and other computer components so nVidia is maybe seeing the same faith as 3dfx??
-

And about those bug fixes people think about. How can it be negative that ATI delivers new drivers as double the pace of nvidia??????????? Is it better not to fix problems? Why would there be new drivers in that case. If nVidias drivers where perfect why do they still update them?

Here is one of the advantages to buying a Falcon system. I just called them to see what they were going to say about this. Here's what they told me.

And Buzz...

When HL2 shows up, and the 5x,xx drivers don't let the 5900 Ultra run the game as it should. They will swap me the latest ATI card that is out at that time for free. So i'm not worried about running future games one way or the other

That´s great Buzz, guess Falcon don´t want angry customers. Just be sure to trade if you got that opportunity.

and

Cess-Harpoon wrote:
- You know , I have never seen something like this..
- like here .
-
-
- Someone is trying to let us , the gamers know that
- there is a problem with a video card. And then they
- get pounded , Not just in this thread but others...


Wrong. Someone is a little trolling fanboy who makes bogus claims like saying ATI's drivers are better. Even if ATI cards do better than Nvidia'a in a game that won't be released for months, they'll probably still have all the problems they are known for in the past (documented)

If you play games, stick with Nvidia. If you go bug hunting, ATI is the way to go.

The fact is even if I enjoy the lack of knowledge and objectivity of many people in this forum that even if I think it´s funny with people in here still thinking nVidia is number one (the only forum I see this nowadays, there was loads more just some months ago in other forums).

Especially this ATI driver sucks thingie is quite funny. In other forums the threads was crapped with those threads especially before the Catalysts and though much of it was true for some years ago that ain´t the case. 95 % of the gamers knows this but 95 % in the IL 2 forums do not...

And yes since I have experience of both the newest nVidia and ATI video cards I ain´t afraid of posting about the problems nVidia got nowadays... Just look in other forums. Just pick one and see what guys thinks and you will be stunned of how apart it is from the users in this forum.

And don´t worry since the nvidia fanboys obviously are in such big majority in these forums I expect to be flamed, I can take it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LLv34_Jani
09-30-2003, 12:14 PM
What annoys me most is that people goes nuts just because of the slower performance of Nvidia with 1 game...wich above all is sponsored and optimised by/for ATI.

Wait untill STALKER Oblivion comes out wich will be just as good or even better than Half life 2 wich is sponsored by Nvidia and optimized for FX cards....wonder wich way the pipes play then? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I just installed an FX5800 card and in perfect mode i get an avg of 40/50 FPS in 1600x1200 32bit 4xFSAA in IL2 FB.

I couldnt care less if my card is 30fps slower than a 9800 Pro as long as its playable. jeeez....all this noise over 1 game....its rediculous.

Buzz_25th
09-30-2003, 05:27 PM
The biggest thing that unsets me about ATI cards is they never fixed the problems in Grand Prix Legends. I know it's an old game, but that just gave them more time to address the problems. GPL has a very strong community. Stronger than IL2. It has been upgraded to look better than any 2003 game. There are many mods coming out to keep the game alive for years. Yet ATI has chosen to ignore it.

ATI has great drivers? I guess that depends on what game your playing. For me to give up a card that plays GPL perfect to play a future game is a tough call for me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:30 PM
LLv34_Jani wrote:
- What annoys me most is that people goes nuts just
- because of the slower performance of Nvidia with 1
- game...wich above all is sponsored and optimised
- by/for ATI.
-
- Wait untill STALKER Oblivion comes out wich will be
- just as good or even better than Half life 2 wich is
- sponsored by Nvidia and optimized for FX
- cards....wonder wich way the pipes play then? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
-
- I just installed an FX5800 card and in perfect mode
- i get an avg of 40/50 FPS in 1600x1200 32bit 4xFSAA
- in IL2 FB.
-
- I couldnt care less if my card is 30fps slower than
- a 9800 Pro as long as its playable. jeeez....all
- this noise over 1 game....its rediculous.
-

It´s not one game... It´s all dx 9 games... Halo, Tomb raider, HL 2 even DOOM 3 even if it´s OPEN GL. It still applies since it´s the pixel shaders on the nvidia cards that is so poor. The Radeons is as fast in dx 8 and dx 9 taking virtually no performance hit.

Stalker is a supposed to be a dx 9 game too and if it wants to compete with Half Life 2 in term of graphics it has to be dx 9. And it was originally developed with a 9700 PRO (No nVidia dx 9 card by that time) so I am sure it will.)

Expect them to do with the nVidia very much what John Carmack and Valve does...

In one sense Half Life 2 is also optimized for nVidia since the developers optimized it five times longer for the nVidia cards than for the Radeons. Same with DOOM 3 and it´s also dead slow in ARB 2 mode. Those John Carmack runs it in mixed mode and lower precision.

So if you don´t care about performance and image quality the geforce cards will run the dx 9 games fine in dx 8 mode... But then you shouldn´t own a 5900 ULTRA you should own a Geforce 4 or even Geforce 3...

And this game optimized for this certain video card is just a PR trick. The game developers can´t afford throwing 50 % of the gamers out of the window and get bank rupt by doing so. They will make the games look best on whatever video card you got.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:45 PM
oeqvist wrote:
- Stalker is a supposed to be a dx 9 game too and if
- it wants to compete with Half Life 2 in term of
- graphics it has to be dx 9. And it was originally
- developed with a 9700 PRO (No nVidia dx 9 card by
- that time) so I am sure it will.)


Stalker was a game?

I thought LLv34_Jani was talking about oeqvist. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

=======================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-30-2003, 08:19 PM
@oeqvist:
You are right, that drivers are a major problem for every game, oeqvist.

There are games running without any problem under the very same driver, that makes a LOT of problems on other games.

But I can play every single game on the market with my GF4 without any problems and infact, with the omega-drivers I get 3 times the FPS in UT2k3-Benchmark than with ATi9800pro with latest drivers and the same system. (=>Flyby, Botmatch 25FPS more)

So, if you talk about ranks and numbers from any performance test, you just gotta search a little longer and X will be faster than Y, though it was Y being faster than X, on the other test. I don't give to much on that benchmarks (especially not these artifical benchmarks like 3DMarks!)

What interests me is not how much horsepower a car has, but if it does drive. And speaking of ATi, they STILL(!) have the very same problem with Z-Buffer, that they had when UT1 was released. It was allready posted in the LOMAC forum several times, that textures are flickering, causing BAD FPS loss. The very same happened on UT, UT2k3, HL and all those other little games, using multiple textures and it was still a problem on points like shores and smoke in IL2(FB).
I don't expect to be my gfx-card the fastes, but I want to play my games without nasty performance losses due to a bug that is in the Radeon since it the first build!

Again, I'm an ATi-fan and I'll probably switch back to ATi, but they really gotta get drivers, that work with all games, not just with benchmarks.


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:59 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- @oeqvist:
- You are right, that drivers are a major problem for
- every game, oeqvist.
-
- There are games running without any problem under
- the very same driver, that makes a LOT of problems
- on other games.
-
- But I can play every single game on the market with
- my GF4 without any problems and infact, with the
- omega-drivers I get 3 times the FPS in
- UT2k3-Benchmark than with ATi9800pro with latest
- drivers and the same system. (=>Flyby, Botmatch
- 25FPS more)
-
- So, if you talk about ranks and numbers from any
- performance test, you just gotta search a little
- longer and X will be faster than Y, though it was Y
- being faster than X, on the other test. I don't give
- to much on that benchmarks (especially not these
- artifical benchmarks like 3DMarks!)
-
- What interests me is not how much horsepower a car
- has, but if it does drive. And speaking of ATi, they
- STILL(!) have the very same problem with Z-Buffer,
- that they had when UT1 was released. It was allready
- posted in the LOMAC forum several times, that
- textures are flickering, causing BAD FPS loss. The
- very same happened on UT, UT2k3, HL and all those
- other little games, using multiple textures and it
- was still a problem on points like shores and smoke
- in IL2(FB).
- I don't expect to be my gfx-card the fastes, but I
- want to play my games without nasty performance
- losses due to a bug that is in the Radeon since it
- the first build!
-
- Again, I'm an ATi-fan and I'll probably switch back
- to ATi, but they really gotta get drivers, that work
- with all games, not just with benchmarks

Again ??????? about the drivers. I got less problems with my ATI drivers than I ever had with the Geforce 2- Geforce 4 ti cards that I have owned. For an overclocker nothing beats the stability of the ATI drivers.

And nope ati don´t have trouble with z-buffer really. And the flickering problem I have only heard about on 5900 ULTRA cards so you maybe have mixed things up???

It wasn´t fixed until recently with new det-drivers.

And there will always be people who can´t run their computer on nVidia hardware and vice versa since we are on a PC with millions of different combinations. Today the truth is ATI got less issues than the nVidia det drivers so I don´t understand if you don´t own an ATI card why you would crap on them? You are basing your facts on old facts which is really old by now which every Radeon owner can tell you.

Not that there isn´t issues with some games with Radeons. There is always issues weither it´s nVidia or ATI no matter if the drivers themself are perfect or not but they can say that they aren´t a bit worse than nVidias more of the opposite.

And again, look at the UT benchies. You can run UT benchies on just about every map available. See how many have the Geforce 4 ti-4800se come on top on any Radeon 9500 or higher under any settings?

And Omega drivers is for image quality not speed!! You shouldn´t see any speed increase thanks to the omega drivers just slightly better image quality which I also find very odd.

Not to say you compare a Geforce 4 ti-4200 in disquise with a 9800 PRO ????????

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:05 PM
For those interested the overclocked 9800 PRO reviews is out there (9800XT)

http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files/S&V/radeon_9800xt(3).shtml (http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files/S&V/radeon_9800xt[3).shtml)

http://www20.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030930/radeon_9800-32.html

http://www.lostcircuits.com/video/ati_r360/

http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2003q3/radeon-9800xt/index.x?pg=1

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/9800xt/index.htm

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:06 PM
Give it up, Oeqvist. Your wrong and even people with ATI cards are turning against you. Quit living in your fantasy world, go salvage what you can for your 9800pro on Ebay, and buy an Nvidia card.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

JerseyD
09-30-2003, 10:09 PM
This is getting good/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hey RJB I heard he called your mother a fa......

never mind carry on



<Center>http://home.cfl.rr.com/jerseydevil/JerseyDevil's%20Frag%20Zone/Frag%20Zone_files/109chevysig.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/IL2/il2_skins_sports.htm)</center>

J¨rsé¿D¨v*L

<a href=http://www.diskworks.com/myth.html>The Jersey Devil (Fact or Fiction?)</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:21 PM
Hi RBJ, you are getting slow... Where have you been all this time? Have almost missed you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz_25th
09-30-2003, 10:26 PM
Your wrong about the Omega drivers. When you install them, you have a choice between quality or performance. It's your pick as to which one you use.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-30-2003, 10:32 PM
@oeqvist

?

What are you trying to tell me? I got rid of my ATi just a few month ago and I had an 9800pro sapphire here for testing just 2 weeks ago.

If you believe what you say, fine, but don't take it for the one and only truth!

- And again, look at the UT benchies. You can run UT
- benchies on just about every map available. See how
- many have the Geforce 4 ti-4800se come on top on any
- Radeon 9500 or higher under any settings?

ROFLOL! Yes, true, but the benchmark is standard and comes with the game. You need to modify some inis to et other maps. Therefore all run the Asbestos and Antalus.

- And Omega drivers is for image quality not speed!!
- You shouldn´t see any speed increase thanks to the
- omega drivers just slightly better image quality
- which I also find very odd.

What? Seems you're a pro! LO!

- Not to say you compare a Geforce 4 ti-4200 in
- disquise with a 9800 PRO ????????

Ti4400 with 8x AGP and yes, it is faster with OmegaDrivers. Face it.

And the best at the end:
- And nope ati don´t have trouble with z-buffer
- really. And the flickering problem I have only heard
- about on 5900 ULTRA cards so you maybe have mixed
- things up???

ROFLOL - that's a good one, really - gonna write this down and send it to some of my friends with ATi-gfx-cards. Really good! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You really should read ATi's FAQ and trouble-shooting sites. Spent many hours there. But you don't want to realize, cause you spent so much more money on your card, right?

Again, you're speaking with a fan of ATi, but I'm far from what you are - this has fanatic traces...

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:45 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- The maturity level is severely ovemodelled.
-
- Here is correct NACA data, overlayed in blue.


http://www.airattack.co.uk/club/modules/Forums/images/smiles/lol.gif


Good one, Fennec. Gave me a good chuckle, that did.

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-30-2003, 11:19 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Your wrong about the Omega drivers. When you install
- them, you have a choice between quality or
- performance. It's your pick as to which one you use.


Just one of many points that show his proficiency. HE really knows what he's talking about and of course, he tested it, as you can clearly see /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:29 PM
Omega drivers?

Why the hell would someone download drivers from some solitary hack?

Don't you think the 100's of employee's at Nvidia and ATI know a little more than he does?

Omega drivers what a joke. You probably have some crazy virus on your puter now.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:08 AM
ATI does have some problems with Raven Shield, but on my card atleast, these bugs appear only at 1600X1200 on full quality settings, and the game fps is still high enough to be playable. I'm guessing that it isn't a problem with the card as muh as it's a problem with the code. It doen't happen on any other title I own.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 12:20 AM
@RayBanJockey

Yes, it's probably government controlled and they planted a virus to control the valuable data on my computer...

nVidia's official drivers are designed to work best way possible with the current systems on the market and with the broadest possible range of games and apps.

Omega doesn't. They just max the settings out, that RivaTuner, etc. uses, too, to either present best image quality possible or to get best performance possible without overclocking.
They clearly say, that some programs run a lot faster with these drivers, while others don't. Even games with different engines (DX vs. OpenGL) can have very different values on either render-engine.



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:49 AM
I love these pointless arguements you guys without lives get into on this forum. Nvidia v ATI, Intel v AMD, this one cheats that one does not, this one is better than that one etc.. at nauseum.

What I find most interesting about the fanboy talk from you guys is that each side seems incapable of admiting the other is actually better in this or that area than the other. It is like the Republicans and Democrats ALWAYS saying the other side is lying, cheating or just flat wrong.

Clearly, both of these fine companies has a vested interest in making a product that works well with the majority of software releases. The entire updating of drivers proves this point.

So, continue on with your pointless fanboy discussions of which of you has the largest ***** in town. We won't ask your wife/girlfriend in an effort to keep from hurting your feelings and destroying your cyber-stud images. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Message Edited on 09/30/0304:50PM by BlackPhenix

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 02:10 AM
BlackPhenix

Since your posting on this thread. I guess you have no life either.


Nice try asshat, but no cigar.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:17 AM
But I still don´t understand how you could claim that your ti-4800se (which is a ti-4200 with 128 mb of RAM not a ti-4400...) would be faster than the 9800 PRO in UT2K3.... My 9700 PRO was over 2 times faster than my ti-4600 on any UT 2K3 map and it´s just silly stating that your ti-4200 is 3 times faster. Show how much you know...

And every Omega driver I have tested has been 2-3 fps slower than the det counterparts but they always have better IQ. Shows how much I know /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:18 AM
<center> <img src=http://www.geocities.com/g8tr45/gayness.txt>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:48 AM
"gaydar has detected gayness in your post"

The moderator should not be encouraging raaaid to be at home... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:17 AM
Hey Buzzard-

If you took the time to actually read my post you would have ascertained that it was directed towards the fanboys arguing over Nvidia v ATI and Intel v AMD. However, since you responded it is clear that you have no life and enjoy your troll exsistance here. Cheers to ya ********, eat some more dead sheit and enjoy life. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:30 AM
Oeqvist,

I just stumbled across this thread and I have no intention in getting in another flaming vidcards debate, but: the Ti4800SE is based on the Ti4400 and thus has faster ramchips than the Ti4200. The Ti4800 sic, so non-SE, is based on the Ti4600 and has even faster ramchips, or should have, anyway. The GPU of all Ti4800 cards is different from the "classic" Ti4200/4400/4600 cards and they *all* run at over 300 Mhz easily. (mine does 315 and could go even further probably, but I highly value a stable system)

The major difference between the SE and non-SE is in the speed the ramchips can reach. But they both should easily reach higher speeds than any Ti4200 could do. Unless you're in luck and have a Ti4200 with *really* good, fast ramchips. The Albatron's come to mind here. (my ram does 635 btw)

And yes, I also have seen benchmarks in which >>OpenGL<< games ran slightly faster on a Ti4800 than on a 9700 Pro.
Of course, at the real high resolutions the ATI card overtakes them again, but still, not bad, eh? For "only" a GF4 based card. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I run online in FB with 85 fps solid and only on very rare occasions incidentally go down to 44 fps minimum. Which I find more than satisfying. And yes, that's in excellent IQ.

Oh, and that's in-cockpit and using Omega's 45.23 drivers.



Message Edited on 10/01/0307:34AM by Airborn_

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 06:35 AM
BlackPhenix

Two posts! You really have no life ********. (according to you) Your as lame as they come. Nothing you say will change that now.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:46 AM
How many post and how many threads for you butt***ker? You are well known in the forums for being the butt***ker troll you have made yourself in this thread as well. Nothing will change that no doubt about it. This can go on as long as you like. Now go play with yourself again buzz***ker. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 07:00 AM
Three posts! Do you have any time for anything else?

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25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:06 AM
Yes. I was playing LOMAC, but I could not get the Mig mission to run. Feel sorry for me? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 07:10 AM
Some people feel sorry for the lame. I'm not one of them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:14 AM
There you go again. Any chance at civility and you butt***ker it up. ~S~. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:14 AM
go buzz!

flying online as 25th_Inmate



http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/inmate.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 07:21 AM
Just having fun with you bud. Don't get in a huff about it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:23 AM
Intel, NVidia, CFS3 and Scooby Doo r0xx0rz.

a11 else teh ghey.

<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~lenazavaroni/images/tva_01a.jpg

<font size="+4">What a fox!</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:24 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Here is one of the advantages to buying a Falcon
- system. I just called them to see what they were
- going to say about this. Here's what they told me.
-
- When HL2 shows up, and the 5x,xx drivers don't let
- the 5900 Ultra run the game as it should. They will
- swap me the latest ATI card that is out at that time
- for free. So i'm not worried about running future
- games one way or the other.


They will swap for FREE? Is this just for you,Buzz,or for any of their customers? If it's for anyone,that's awesome. That's really beyond the call of duty. I'm gonna have to scrape up some money and look into a Falcon system./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

In context of this ATI vs. nVidia thread,I have a Radeon 9700 and have been quite happy with it. But then again,I'm no tech-head.....

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:26 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Just having fun with you bud. Don't get in a huff
- about it.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Message Edited on 09/30/0311:26PM by BlackPhenix

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 07:32 AM
necrobaron

It's for anybody who isn't satisfied with the perfomance of their system. Falcon is into having happy customers. Happy customers keep updating their systems.

If Nvidia can't run DX9 games than the cards are flawed. Falcon will send them back for refunds. They pass this on to the customer by giving them a card that will work.

You may not be aware, but my first system had a 9700 Pro when I bought it. It had a conflict with the MB I had. Falcon discovered the problem, and replaced my 9700 with a 9800 pro for free. The 9800 used a different chip, and didn't have the conflict.

Falcon customer service is top notch. They bend over backwards to keep you happy.

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25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:32 AM
Airborn_ wrote:
- I run online in FB with 85 fps solid and only on
- very rare occasions incidentally go down to 44 fps
- minimum. Which I find more than satisfying. And yes,
- that's in excellent IQ.
-
- Oh, and that's in-cockpit and using Omega's 45.23
- drivers.


What resolution?


<center>http://www.goobage.com/pics/D_Rat.gif </center>
<center><font><font size=1 ><font color=000000>Visit RatFinks Screaming Pile of Sin and Confusion</font></font size> (http://www.goobage.com/forum.php)</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:34 AM
Rgr that,Buzz. Thanks...

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 07:34 AM
@Airborn_

Thanks, might, but it won't convince him. As you could see, he has the opinion that ATi is better all the way and I doubt there is any chance to show him, there's no clear better or worse...


@BlackPhoenix
As always I like to see how quickly after the first whiners appear the first whiner-whiners post, thinking of being somewhat better than the original whiners. Nobody forces you to read this thread and if you even post here, it doesn't really look like you're not interested at all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 11:07 AM
They will swap for FREE? Is this just for
- you,Buzz,or for any of their customers? If it's for
- anyone,that's awesome. That's really beyond the call
- of duty. I'm gonna have to scrape up some money and
- look into a Falcon system./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
-
- In context of this ATI vs. nVidia thread,I have a
- Radeon 9700 and have been quite happy with it. But
- then again,I'm no tech-head.....
-

that is why the Falcon systems cost three times more then building a faster system yourself :P

They rob you of all your money than make good PR giving something back to you hoping they can rob you again when you earn new money http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Falcon and othersmakes about the worst bang for the buck computers out there but then they are for non sensible people with the thumb in the middle of their handshttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 11:24 AM
@Airborn_
-
- Thanks, might, but it won't convince him. As you
- could see, he has the opinion that ATi is better all
- the way and I doubt there is any chance to show him,
- there's no clear better or worse...

I guess you referr to me and no you can´t convince me that nVidia is better since the 5900 ULTRA is such a lackluster card.

nVidia will better release a good performing video card with their NV40 if they will stand a chance in the video card market in the future.

Here is a list of bug fixes that needs to be fixed with the NV40.

- First of all get rid of all cheating drivers and come to understanding that to be competitive your video cards need both speed and image quality.

- When you get rid of your cheating enhance your aa and anisotropic so they can compete with the Radeons in both performance and image quality. Under no circumstances sacrifice image quality for high benchmark scores!!

- Follow the dx 9 standards since you failed totally with CG trying to gain monopoly like 3dfx with glide.

- Stop lying and use all effort on create great video cards not just make your stock holders happy.

- Go officially and make excuse for your repeated missteps with the FX serie to earn back all thrust you lost from gamers including me.


I really believe if nVidia don´t shape up they will no longer be developing high end video cards in the future. They really start to look like 3dfx... 3dfx last video cards where giants that even needed external power to be run. Looking at nVidia their videocards got far more transistors, run at higher clock speeds and still being slower even with optimized drivers in many cases...

Nvidia even says that the video market won´t be where they will spend the most efforts in...

You can just live on your name for so long...

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 01:34 PM
Hehehe

1. ATi allready admitted, that their drivers were "adopted" to get better results in benchmarks, too. (That was the main reason, Tom stopped the current benchmarking btw. You should read more and more closely)

2. You're naming no bugs, but you personal opinion.

3. If you know all that much about nVidia, you'd know, that nVidia has introduced the FX-series as a cheap alterative to other products (ATi), especially for DX8 market, until they'll finish their version of DX9 hardware.

4. If you believe a company is heading to disaster, because it doesn't develope a gfx-card for the gaming market, ATi was dead long ago. For over 5 years, they retreated completely from the gamers market, to develop chipsets for professional apps (Their native buisiness, btw, but I'm sure you know), to fight nVidia in that market (That's where most nVidia-gfx chips come from and that's why they're so much better in OpenGL than in D3D)
nVidia is taking some bigger steps in this market now and will probably design a less expensive version for the end-customers gamers market.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:39 PM
Well I hit 17800 in 3dmark01se so I'am happy with my new ATI 9800 pro 128meg /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 01:45 PM
LO, yes, that's what I meant. After the first WOW!, people got wondering and asking questions and ATi admitted they pulled even, because nVidia had cheated before, so they "optimized" their drivers for those kind of artificial benchmarks.

So, I wonder how somebody still can say "These are bad, those are so much better!". Face it, they're all lying.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:50 PM
Buy the way I know the numbers meen bugger all in the real world but what other choice do we have? when I get new hardware I want to see how it compares to what I had before.

No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 03:45 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- Hehehe
-
- 1. ATi allready admitted, that their drivers were
- "adopted" to get better results in benchmarks, too.
- (That was the main reason, Tom stopped the current
- benchmarking btw. You should read more and more
- closely)
-
- 2. You're naming no bugs, but you personal opinion.
-
- 3. If you know all that much about nVidia, you'd
- know, that nVidia has introduced the FX-series as a
- cheap alterative to other products (ATi), especially
- for DX8 market, until they'll finish their version
- of DX9 hardware.
-
- 4. If you believe a company is heading to disaster,
- because it doesn't develope a gfx-card for the
- gaming market, ATi was dead long ago. For over 5
- years, they retreated completely from the gamers
- market, to develop chipsets for professional apps
- (Their native buisiness, btw, but I'm sure you
- know), to fight nVidia in that market (That's where
- most nVidia-gfx chips come from and that's why
- they're so much better in OpenGL than in D3D)
- nVidia is taking some bigger steps in this market
- now and will probably design a less expensive
- version for the end-customers gamers market.
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger

Hmm your mind is distorted.

1. ATI hasn´t been caught cheating since the Quack issue. There was some optimizations for 3DMark 2003 whereas image quality was the same (that´s the difference between optimizations and cheating). But this was in one driver release and they dropped it instantly. nVidia hasn´t dropped their cheating hell they even open support it!!! Believe me they where all over the Quack issue but all suddenly it´s okay not doing full trilinear, anisotropic filtering and not rendering hole images??

And the det 50 is the worst cheating drivers ever from nVidia! Not only in dx 9 where it is a must to get more performance but also in dx 8 applications.

2. No bugs??? I can name plenty if you want but what´s the fun in that. I can count 10 nVidia bugs for 10 ATI bugs and if I really want to 100 nVidia bugs for perhaps 100 ATI bugs.

3. Is the FX a cheap alternative to ATI??? They are priced higher all of them. Even the pos video card 5200 and 5600 is more expensive than the higher performing ATI counterparts 9600 and 9100. Not to speak about the 5900 ULTRA...

4. I don´t think nVidia will go under as 3dfx did. I am just noting that they have nothing but failures since the Geforce 4 series and their sales are hurting badly from it. But they have other areas to fall back on like the great mainboards they develop and a hole series of other computer parts. They may still be in the budget section since there is where 95 % of the consumers are but I don´t think they are ready to spend the amount of time and resources to reduce or surpass ATI:s currently technology advantage.

Considering the nVidias first dx 9 video card was released almost a year after the 9700 PRO and took a hell of a beating as we all know. And now the 5900 ULTRA not being able to compete in the upcoming games of 2004...

As I have said nVidia themself says that the video market isn´t where they will spend their most resources and efforts on and that can´t be good for us who wants competition.

ZG77_Nagual
10-01-2003, 03:56 PM
Just a couple points

THe evolution of graphic cards favors Image Quality
So - some of the older gf cards (with their rather deceptive naming conventions I might add - but then what's up with all these 9100s, 9200s etc.!?) will post higher frames with aa and af off or at low resolutions than top end ati or even nvidia cards.

What I've noticed on my overclocked 9700 and my 9800pro is these cards don't lose much when you crank the res - or image quality.

I think nvidia freaked and started pushing their archetecture, which is the easiest thing to do, when confronted by ATI's explosion onto the gaming scene. As a result they do have problems with quality control - in addition to their cards often being overpriced. Their benchmark optimizations don't speak to highly of them either. However - they are a big company with lots of resources - I am sure they'll catch up. The 5900s are good cards - alot of the nvidia stuff is good - from my perspective however ati currently has them beat in the big picture in terms of design and bang for the buck.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 04:06 PM
oeqvist wrote:
- I can count 10 nVidia bugs
- for 10 ATI bugs and if I really want to 100 nVidia
- bugs for perhaps 100 ATI bugs.

Again, Oeqvist is living in a fantasy world. It when he posts stuff like this that he looses all credibility with the readers. Everyone knows ATI is the bug leader by about 10x in games.



- 4. I don´t think nVidia will go under as 3dfx did. I
- am just noting that they have nothing but failures
- since the Geforce 4 series and their sales are
- hurting badly from it.
-
- Considering the nVidias first dx 9 video card was
- released almost a year after the 9700 PRO and took a
- hell of a beating as we all know.

Nvidia came to the DX9 market a year later and already more consumers own more DX9 video cards from Nvidia than ATI. I hope you wake up from your dream state someday Oeqvist.



"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 04:35 PM
oeqvist

, you still didn't mention a single bug and I really begin to like your way of looking at things and placing arguments. It's so wonderfully naive. - "my favourite company doesn't cheat /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif - they can't, they build these things for us, not to earn money."


Really cute.

Again, think about the up and downs in the last years. What was before the 9800pro and what will be, after the NV38 is released? So, why do you think ATi 9800pro rules the world? Yes, it's a very nice gfx-card, especially at the moment and the XT-Version is even gonna top it, but even the XGI - Volari Duo poses a definite threat, when it will be released to the public.
And to the overclocking, Catalyst drivers use dynamic overclocking since 3.6 and it will be extensively used in the XT-series.


On the other hand, if you can really name 10 nVidia bugs for 10 ATi-bugs, you're getting my point, here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 05:46 PM
oeqvist

So you state you can build a system for one third what Falcon sells theirs for. Which means you can build my system for $1000?

Like everything else you say. That is total crap! Your full of it up to your eyes, and their brown too. Your just a nerdy little twit with half a brain. You never talk about FB. You just have your nose up ATI's a$$, and come here to talk your crap. To talk like you own ATI, and developed the 9800. Wrong! Your just some twit who bought an ATI card like everybody else. Why don't you find something constructive to do? This ATI fanboy act is rediculous.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:31 PM
oeqvist
-
- So you state you can build a system for one third
- what Falcon sells theirs for. Which means you can
- build my system for $1000?
-
-
- Like everything else you say. That is total crap!
- Your full of it up to your eyes, and their brown
- too. Your just a nerdy little twit with half a
- brain. You never talk about FB. You just have your
- nose up ATI's a$$, and come here to talk your crap.
- To talk like you own ATI, and developed the 9800.
- Wrong! Your just some twit who bought an ATI card
- like everybody else. Why don't you find something
- constructive to do? This ATI fanboy act is
- rediculous.

Easy Buzz just kidding /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif But why do you think your system cost so much? Look at internet sites and pick the parts yourself and see what some you come up with using the same parts...


You are paying not only for the parts, you are paying Falcon to build it for you and you are paying for Falcons support which should be quite expensive if they really would exchange your nVidia card.

That would be almost as a great deal I got when my ti-4600 broke my third time and they wheren´t selling the ti-4600 anymore and I got an 9700 PRO free of charge instead.

But you should know that? You are taking the easy way not set your system up yourself but let other do it for you? Nothing wrong with that but that´s never cheap.

And as long as you don´t overclock you can never get top performance...

I can build a faster system for lot less money quite easily if I just get to keep my old 21" trinitron aperture grill monitor which I ain´t going to toss anywhere. Otherwise it can be hard fitting the 1000$ bill...

By Falcon if money is no concern, do it yourself if performance is your primary concern.


And someone really wanted a bug list.

you still didn't mention a single bug and I really begin to like your way of looking at things and placing arguments. It's so wonderfully naive. - "my favourite company doesn't cheat - they can't, they build these things for us, not to earn money

For example, UT2K3, Rallisport Challenge runs very poor on nVidia hardware both sporting the nVidia "the way it´s meant to be played" logo. Loads of others as well seen in nvidia forums as expected of course since that is what technical forums is around but I am currently owning a 9700 PRO so I wouldn´t have much knowledge about current nVidia bugs would I?

Can you list all the Matrox bugs for me???

And this is your qoute not mine "my favourite company doesn't cheat - they can't, they build these things for us, not to earn money

You nVidia fanboys needs to come with something better to counter the fact that nVidia is cheating and ATI is NOT!!! It´s as easy as that. nVidia cheats, ATI do not. How can that equation be everybody cheats???

Yes ATI wants money but they know the best way of earning money. Number one rules in sale school. The customer is always right, Give the customers what the customers want. instead of nVidias way of implementing it give the stock holders what they want.

ATI actually listens to their consumers whereas nVidia go every way to deceive their customers in every possible way.

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 06:47 PM
I built 10 systems before I bought a Falcon. It's not a big deal, and it's not hard. As for o/c my system. I can still do it easily. Falcon doesn't know what i'm doing.

I did add up the parts, and you can't come close to building it for 1/3 the price. You can't even do it for half the price. One of the big advantages to owning a Falcon is the warranty. If you burn out a vid card in your system. What do you do? You take it out, and send it to the manufacture. Then you wait forever. Meanwhile you have no system. With Falcon you tell falcon you have a problem. They overnight the new card to you, and you have it the next morning. Then they send the old one back for you. This service alone is worth the extra money. They also give you tech service for life. Any problems you have with windows, or any game is just a free phone call away. Look at the tech forums of any game to see how valuable this is.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 06:58 PM
- For example, UT2K3, Rallisport Challenge runs very
- poor on nVidia hardware both sporting the nVidia
- "the way it´s meant to be played" logo. Loads of
- others as well seen in nvidia forums as expected of
- course since that is what technical forums is around
- but I am currently owning a 9700 PRO so I wouldn´t
- have much knowledge about current nVidia bugs would
- I?

ROFLOL!

You're really the top, might!

Check out the benchmarks. In OpenGL based games (like Q3A and Ut2003 under OpenGL), FX is still on top, even above the new 9800TX, the gfx-card, that will perhaps find it's way in my machine.

http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/Bench.jpg


Besides that, you're still missing the point. We're not blind fans of nVidia, but we are able to make up our minds - something you fail to do.

Your bad experiences with the Ti4600 you mentioned and probably lead to your concrete made opinion, are bad, but I had the very same problem with my second ATi. The first one was dead from the factory. Bullsh*t quality test! The second card lived exactly 2 hours but it was without working acceleration chipset - great - for writing emails... The third one worked for almost 6 month until it finally got slower and slower. That's when I decided to test nVidia and my GF4 is running for over a year now, w/o any problems at all.
The bad thing about ATi customer service:
I waited 2 weeks for the first replacement and it came back with the comment "working" - my reseller tested it and noticed, ATi hadn't even opened the box.
The second time I sent it in, it took them 4 weeks and I got a new one.
As it died, I sent it in and got a reply 8 weeks later, that they sent it back to my reseller without being able to determine the problem. It turned out, it wasn't the card I had sent in.

So don't tell me about ATi caring about customer-crap!

I've made my experiences and you can't tell me that was an illusion of a fanboy!



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:21 PM
How stupid can you get?

Do you think Quake 3 ARENA and UT 2K3 uses the same game engine??????? Let me advice you Quake 3 Arena is ID software and UT 2K3 is ATARI and two totally different games.

Quake 3 Arena engine has been out for how many years??? Me I played Star Trek Elite force (Heavily adapted Quake 3 Arena engine) maximum settings all the way up 1600x1200x32 at 85 hertz 6x aa 16x anisotropic full detail and still hit fps in the 60:s so it´s a ridiculous CPU benchmark these days..

Another Quake 3 Arena engine Jedi Knight 2: Outcast the Radeons outnumber the 5900 ULTRA with ease. Und so weiter, und so weiter. Everybody knows that the 9800 PRO and 5900 ULTRA gives about the same fps in dx 8 games. Without aa and anisotropic some favour to 5900 ULTRA in term of fps and with aa and anisotropic some favour to 9800 PRO in fps.

Not mentioning image quality since those two cards aren´t comparable...
And you mean that ATI is the only one with bug fixes??? Or why would you flame me because of the poor performance in mentioned games on my ti-4600? This was before nVidias cheating driver schedule mind you....

Again, think about the up and downs in the last years. What was before the 9800pro and what will be, after the NV38 is released? So, why do you think ATi 9800pro rules the world? Yes, it's a very nice gfx-card, especially at the moment and the XT-Version is even gonna top it, but even the XGI - Volari Duo poses a definite threat, when it will be released to the public.
And to the overclocking, Catalyst drivers use dynamic overclocking since 3.6 and it will be extensively used in the XT-series.

Before the 9800 PRO was the real stunner 9700 PRO. The 9700 PRO is the real star. Have achieved the highest star rating since voodoo II days. 9800 PRO is very much an overclocked 9700 PRO with even more enhanced smoothvision and some new dx 9 functions.

And before the 9700 PRO was the 8500 which after a tough start raced way ahead of the Geforce 3. But many seems to forget that and compare it against the Geforce 4 ti-series and thus thinking the 8500 was a failure... I am very interested in dx 9 benchies of the 8500 though. considering it´s dx 8,1 against Geforce 4 dx 8 and it has superior shaders should mean it would compete quite well in dx 9 games running in dx 8 mode...

So ATI sure have a history. They have been in the video market much longer than nVidia really. And ATI:s track record easily beats nvidia these days.

And please explain why you choose these two benchmarks. One benchmark on a (is it 4 year old) game engine, one with famous hacked drivers which boosts performance with 20 % plus (UT 2K3 don´t tell me you didn´t know that already).

UT 2K3 actually looks better on my Geforce 4 ti-4600 with old drivers than the 5900 ULTRA I tested it with.

I am thinking you are an ATI fan and secretly conspire with me showing all nvidias weak spots /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


On the other hand, if you can really name 10 nVidia bugs for 10 ATi-bugs, you're getting my point, here

Well I was wrong, you are a Xbox advertiser... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



Message Edited on 10/01/0306:29PM by oeqvist

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 07:23 PM
UT 2K3 actually looks better on my Geforce 4 ti-4600 with old drivers than the 5900 ULTRA I tested it with.

Bull!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:31 PM
Not bull... Geforce 4 ti-4600 with old drivers got far better anisotropic and trilinear filtering than with the cheating FX drivers. ESPECIALLY at UT 2K3 since this is one of the most heavy and ruthlessly optimized games from nVidia. Where do you think the 20%+ performance increase comes from on the 5600 FX for example?

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 07:43 PM
oeqvist wrote:
- How stupid can you get?
-
- Do you think Quake 3 ARENA and UT 2K3 uses the same
- game engine??????? Let me advice you Quake 3 Arena
- is ID software and UT 2K3 is ATARI and two totally
- different games.

R E A D my posts, before calling me stupid, stupid.

It seems you don't even know what OpenGL is!?

Either you're unbelievable dump or you're sitting behind your screen laughing about your own posts.

- This was before nVidias cheating driver schedule
- mind you....

The cheat works with 3DMark and Sandra, not with games, noob. You don't even know there's a difference, do you?

If you like playing Q3-engined games try MOHAA. Dunno about the latest drivers, but with the 8500 I had that time, I got an awesome avg.FPS of *5* in SnowyPark.

The 8500 (my ex-card I had so much problems with) was an overclocked and blown-up Radeon32DDR. From that point until the 9800pro and the 9800XT as the next step, ATi is doing the same as nVidia: pushing clocking-timings and Ramdacs to the limit. I got an overall performance boost of 8-15% (15FPS more in IL2, 30FPS+ in UT1 and AmericasArmy, to name the ones I tested thoroughly before and after the refit.)

(ATi ruled the video-editing buisiness, nVidia is from CAD/CAM field.)



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 07:44 PM
Which drivers do you think were the cheat drivers? Your always talking about them, so you should know. They all arn't cheat drivers you know?

btw..I don't use the cheat drivers, because they suck.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:55 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- @BlackPhoenix
- As always I like to see how quickly after the first
- whiners appear the first whiner-whiners post,

I love these pointless arguements you guys without lives get into on this forum. Nvidia v ATI, Intel v AMD, this one cheats that one does not, this one is better than that one etc.. at nauseum.

What I find most interesting about the fanboy talk from you guys is that each side seems incapable of admiting the other is actually better in this or that area than the other. It is like the Republicans and Democrats ALWAYS saying the other side is lying, cheating or just flat wrong.

Clearly, both of these fine companies has a vested interest in making a product that works well with the majority of software releases. The entire updating of drivers proves this point.

So, continue on with your pointless fanboy discussions of which of you has the largest ***** in town. We won't ask your wife/girlfriend in an effort to keep from hurting your feelings and destroying your cyber-stud images. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
_________________________________________

Not a whine in there just facts. However, if there is a whine, aren't you the whinner about people whinning? Who are you again?

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 08:19 PM
LO, yes, BlackPhenix!

That's what I'm talking about

1. You're taking part in this discussion

2. We're no lobbyists trying to convert people to their electronic religion. I'm only arguing exactly what you say:

This lobby-bullsh*t is just dump. When I buy a piece of hardware (or anything, btw), I go for tests and if I can mange, I make them myself. It's nothing but stupid to say Asus makes the best MBs, ATi the best graphics cards, Creative the best soundcards, etc. This is simply NON-SENSE.

And actually this is exactly, what we're trying to tell that dude. We're not telling him to buy nVidia, or something else. All we, well I say (at least) is, that you cannot judge a product by the name on the box.

So, yes, you're right, but you're infact only posting for one lobbyist, here, not for all of us.

Would be nice, if you read closely before calling names - thx.


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 08:20 PM
Oh, forgot. You're right.

I'm a fanboy of IL2 and my Lobby is called Hyperlobby, LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


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Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 08:21 PM
BlackPhenix

Didn't we do this already?

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ZG77_Nagual
10-01-2003, 08:30 PM
- true - with the 9800tx or whatever - ati is just ramping the timeings. I wouldn't pay extra for one since the 9800 or 9700s overclock just dandy.

I used to run 8500s - I had an le that ran stably at 290/310 - no extra cooling! Still have a hercules radeon 8500 128 - interestingly it will not clock has high as that le would - ran il2 on that one for a long time - very good frames. Main diff on the new cards is the aa and as more than frames.

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adlabs6
10-01-2003, 08:47 PM
I saw this last night, made me think of this thread...

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Anyway, I got my RMA back yesterday from PNY, and it's a Ti4200 8X 128MB. Kinda glad that it wasn't the FX card. Everything is back to being quick as lightning, and I can play FB online again!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 08:52 PM
Falcon just agreed to send me a 9800XT Pro for free as soon as they get them. Guess i'm an ATI fanboy now../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

To bad nvidia.You snooze you lose.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 08:55 PM
Reviews are valid and nvidia is getting knocked about by both reviewers (and users), and the new merril report is showing bad results.

rogo

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"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:00 PM
None of the reviews are recomending buying the nv38 or the nv35 because of their poor performance when juxtaposed with the new ati cards.

If you can test them yourself and write a decent review then your opinions might matter.

but until you do ati is now officially the king of the (super) vga show and not amount of loddycoddling will change that fact.


JESUS WILL SAVE YOU RJB.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 10/01/0301:08PM by Rogodin

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:01 PM
Rogo, you post like a pogo.

Learn to use the edit button and quit lying about Nvidia.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

adlabs6
10-01-2003, 09:14 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Falcon just agreed to send me a 9800XT Pro for free
- as soon as they get them. Guess i'm an ATI fanboy
- now..

Why are they doing that? Did your 9800pro or 5900 break down?

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Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 09:23 PM
They like to keep the customer happy. They know the 5900 Ultra will have problems with HL2, and other DX9 games. So they're giving me a card that works.

There are some advantages to owning a Falcon. Try this with Alienware, or a home built system.

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adlabs6
10-01-2003, 09:27 PM
I see. I thought you still had that 9800 pro for Dx9.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:28 PM
I thought you didn't care about dx9 and HL2 buzz.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:34 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Rogo, you post like a pogo.
-
- Learn to use the edit button and quit lying about
- Nvidia.
-
Oh man, watch out RBJ seems to have a Rogo radar. Every time Rogo posts RBJ comes with is Rogo you post like a pogo /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And yes Buzz that is great support it´s. That is what you pay all the extra money for. Now you can stop deceiving yourself and see the real truth /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Can still build a faster system for half the money myself though...

And please enlighten me with any detonator FX drivers that let´s you totally disable nVidias specific game optimizations? To me acknowledge there aren´t any and definiatly not with the new det 50:s.

All nVidia drivers run game specific optimizations for the wast majority of major games not just synthetic benchmarks like Aquamark 3 and 3dMark... noone lets you totally disable them. So I can point out just about every det fx release. This is no secret even nVidia has stated this themselves.

It would be quite easy let the user disable those game specific optimizations don´t you think? How come nVidia don´t allow this do you think?

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:37 PM
Strange the RJB is, oeqvist /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It's now a logical fallacy to buy or support nvidia.

rogo



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"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

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Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 09:41 PM
Rogo,

I don't care about HL2 that much. Not until I try it anyway. I just like new cards. Especially when it's free.

btw.. Someone already added up my system when I got it, to see what it could be built for. It came to $2000. The warranty, and tweaking they do is worth the difference to me.

Do you think anybody would buy a 5900 now? the 9800XT is a $500 card. There's half of it back already.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:46 PM
You should wait to see if the 9800XT even works on your system before you get that warm fuzzy feeling. ATI are known to have compatability issues with the latest Pentium systems (and games, for that matter) All Rogo and Qvist can do is dream of a day when they can play their little Quake game in 3 months. Pretty sad existence.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:48 PM
ANdand says that 2 modern games don't work on the nv38 or nv35 and hence won't recomend them.

why should we belive you RJB?

rogo

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:53 PM
Cpt Loneranger please do your research.

Open GL and Directx? Only different programming language for doing the same thing. The difference is that you can lower the colour precision in OPEN GLs fragment programs which helps performance some with nVidia cards of course to expense of performance. This is very important for coming dx 9 and OPEN GL games like Half life 2 and even DOOM 3 which runs separate paths for the Radeons and the NV30 series. Both OPEN GL 1.5 that DOOM III runs and dx 9 is fully capable of taking full advantage of dx 9 cards.

Believe me running in OPEN GL doesn´t disable the pixel shaders... The fact that the 5900 ULTRA for example runs better in NV30 mode than ARB 2 mode for example is it can run for DOOM 3 for example 12 or 16-bit precision instead of 32-bit. This is necessarily since the Radeons can do just about everything on a single pass with it´s 8 pipelines whereas the 5900 ULTRA is 4x2 thus needing 2 passes for the same amount of data.

The problem with the 5900 ULTRA is it´s hardware design. Radeon cards take virtually no performance hit in dx 9 mode whereas the nVidia cards comes to a crawl thanks to badly implemented pixelshaders.


The cheat works with 3DMark and Sandra, not with
- games, noob. You don't even know there's a
- difference, do you?

You have falled victim for nVidias marketing team. No they do this with most major games too not just UT2K3. nVidia likes playing with shaders you know. Again confirmed by nVidia themself. After forced to after being faced with hard evidence.

If you like playing Q3-engined games try MOHAA.
- Dunno about the latest drivers, but with the 8500 I
- had that time, I got an awesome avg.FPS of *5* in
- SnowyPark.

MOHAA flies on my 9700 PRO. Don´t really stress my video card at all.

The 8500 (my ex-card I had so much problems with)
- was an overclocked and blown-up Radeon32DDR. From
- that point until the 9800pro and the 9800XT as the
- next step, ATi is doing the same as nVidia: pushing
- clocking-timings and Ramdacs to the limit. I got an
- overall performance boost of 8-15% (15FPS more in
- IL2, 30FPS+ in UT1 and AmericasArmy, to name the
- ones I tested thoroughly before and after the
- refit.)

I don´t know what to say.... If you got the 8500 right away sure I bet you had driver problems. There is no secret ATI have had that problem in the past. That´s the reason I went with the Geforce 3 ti-500 instead. Nowadays the 8500 is outperforming the Geforce 3 quite comfortable and performs very much like a Geforce 4 ti-4200 in dx 8 games. I believe it will surpass the Geforce 4 in dx 9 games thanks to it´s superior shaders but that I don´t know yet, just a good guess.

ATI doing the same thing? The 9700 PRO was revolutionary. Think of how long the 9700 PRO has been out and the fact that nVidia couldn´t outperform it until the 5900 ULTRA. And the fact that 9700 PRO is way faster in dx 9 games...

That is what I call a revolution for gaming. But sure they do use their magic R300 core to the maximum. 9800 PRO and 9800XT is by no means anything other than rehashing hardware.

And their R420 is supposed to be based on 4 RV360 cores I think (9600 cores) but it will probably be a 12 pipeline video card.

In that area nVidia has taking bigger hardware leaps with their 5800 ULTRA and 5900 ULTRA but they are still at least 1 year behind it seems.

Me having bigger hopes for XGI as a competitor to ATI as competition is good for all parts. The NV40 is probably the last chance for nVidia to come back in the near future in the high end market.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:56 PM
Well, first of all forget ATI or Nvidia, if you spend over $200 for a VIDEO CARD you are an idiot. I know video cards mean alot to you, but in reality they are the most overblown investment you can ever make.

Me, I wait for the stuff to trickle down, and make the best purchasing decision. Thats why I bought a GF4Ti4400 a year ago.

I am going to look closely at the NV36 (aka FX5700). But it will still cost over $200 at first. There is a good chance I won't buy a new video card till Q22004, when I get a 90nm Athalon64 with dual channel non-ECC memory hooked up the the best Nvidia mobo.

By them all this hoopla will be sorted out. Now, 3 months before any DX9.0 games are out, is foolish make premature assumptions. ATI still sucks though.

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Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 10:03 PM
Ray,

That would be a concern if I had built the system myself. In this case I have no worries. This is how it goes with a Falcon.

UPS picks it up at my door. It's sent overnight to Falcon. Falcon formats the system, and installs the 9800XT. They install all the latest drivers for everything, and test, and tweak it. They will also install, and test games if youwant them too. After they are satisfied with everything. They cut recovery CD's for the system. That way if the customer screws up the system, he can just run the CD's, and it puts it back like it was when he received it. After that, they overnight it back to you. This service is priceless to me.

I'm not interested in screwing with my computer anymore. I just want to hit a button and go. My spare time is spent working on/driving my Jeep. Much more fun.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:03 PM
- why should we belive you RJB?

You shouldn´t. You cannot expect an objective assessment from someone who is either an ATI or NVIDIA fanboi for that matter, RBJ belongs to the latter.

Best thing you can do is to compare it yourself, which shouldn´t pose a problem if you go to LAN´s or have friends with different setups.


============================
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Japanese Samurai and Philosopher
(More than 60 Victories in Hand-to-Hand combat.)

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:04 PM
I spend no more than $240 on video cards.

My 9800non pro (flashed to a pro) was only $241

same with my old 9700non pro.

Nvidia has NO MATCH for a $240 radeon 9800/9700 non pro PERIOD.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:06 PM
"ATI still sucks though."

Not as much as NVIDIA.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:09 PM
Listen Nvidia has made the best MOBO (Nforce), they have trumped Creative with the best sound hardware for games (Soundstorm) and they are still the #1 seller of video cards for games.

Why go ATI? For a few more FPS and more bugs? You know it's true.

If you play games, just stick with Nvidia. If you edit home videos, then ATI might be the card for you (All-in-Wonder).

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Buzz_25th
10-01-2003, 10:10 PM
I'll be the judge of which card is better. I have all the results of what the 5900 Ultra is doing in a bunch of games. I'll do the same tests when the 9800XT is installed. Exact same system, so it should be a reliable comparison.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
10-01-2003, 10:38 PM
Oak_Groove wrote:
- Best thing you can do is to compare it yourself,
- which shouldn´t pose a problem if you go to LAN´s or
- have friends with different setups.

Yeppo. Right on.

I'll make up my own mind, if I consider upgrading my gfx-card, as I did when I got my Radeon32DDR, which was quite revolutionary at it's time and I've done that when I switched to nVidia, so I don't get the point here (now even some guy I won't name, admitted there were problems - at least to some degree, but it seems, he's not into ATi all that long).

I don't understand this fanboy'ism and I really don't like being called a lyer because I read more than one test about a piece of hardware and test them myself.
Yes, I am in a position to test these cards, before I buy them, thoroughly, and all I can say is, that it really depends on the game, the setup and the drivers.
I've tested the 9800pro and it's definately faster than my card in 99% of the games, but my card is a year old and it still tops the 9800 with Cat3.6 in UT-Benchmark - period.

(Besides that, 9800 supports OpenGL2.0, which incorporates PixelShaders, but I never said a GeForce would run better with HL2. Dunno where you got that.)

Anyway, your standpoint is getting more fluid by the post and it's clear you are dissapointed of one company and completely trusting another. There's no way of a neutral conversation, so this discussion ends for me, now. Maybe, we'll have the same conversation a year later, when nVidia is your favourite again. (btw I don't believe you were an nVidia-fan, but that's one of the fluids things, gelle? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )



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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:04 AM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:

- I don't understand this fanboy'ism

- Anyway, your standpoint is getting more fluid by the
- post and it's clear you are dissapointed of one
- company and completely trusting another. There's no
- way of a neutral conversation, so this discussion
- ends for me, now. Maybe, we'll have the same
- conversation a year later, when nVidia is your
- favourite again. (btw I don't believe you were an
- nVidia-fan, but that's one of the fluids things,
- gelle?
__________________________________________________ ________
BlackPhenix wrote:

What I find most interesting about the fanboy talk from you guys is that each side seems incapable of admiting the other is actually better in this or that area than the other. It is like the Republicans and Democrats ALWAYS saying the other side is lying, cheating or just flat wrong.

Clearly, both of these fine companies has a vested interest in making a product that works well with the majority of software releases. The entire updating of drivers proves this point.
-----------

Pretty similar wouldn't you say? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:10 AM
Okay since these thread has over 120 posts it would be handy what of these comments are aimed at me?

Many people thinks this type of threads is ridiculous yet the post counts in these subjects always seem to be the highest. Me I don´t think I have post more than 10 % of the replies in here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Well I will comment those anyway to be sure.

I'll make up my own mind, if I consider upgrading my
- gfx-card, as I did when I got my Radeon32DDR, which
- was quite revolutionary at it's time and I've done
- that when I switched to nVidia, so I don't get the
- point here (now even some guy I won't name, admitted
- there were problems - at least to some degree, but
- it seems, he's not into ATi all that long).

That´s fine just don´t make up your mind on current ATI cards by your old 8500... As I have said ATI has taken tremendous steps in the last years in the high end video card market. And that an 9700 PRO still totally obliverate the totally fresh 5900 ULTRA in dx 9 benchmarks not only in term of image quality but also in raw speed talks for itself.

And yes ATI has showned themself thrustworthy. No lying, no bull, no deceiving just focusing on the basics. There is every reason to be dissappointed with nVidia if you have followed every U-turn they have made the past years. ATI try to get the most out of their cards without compromises. Not taking any short cuts but doing all to satisfy their customers.

That is how you build up a user base that is consistent.
NVidia has had all that in the past which still shows in this forum but they seem to have forgotten all about it. Believe I don´t know how nVidia could have handle things worse than they have with the FX series.


Besides that, 9800 supports OpenGL2.0, which
- incorporates PixelShaders, but I never said a
- GeForce would run better with HL2. Dunno where you
- got that.)

I did say that it doesn´t matter much if OPEN GL or DX 9. Both are capable of handling the futures of resp video card. nVidia got some trouble with dx 9 thanks to not following specs. They hoped for CG scoring big but they have now dropped it all together apparently.

From your post I got the impression that you thought the nVidia video cards was faster in OPEN GL mode.

Maybe, we'll have the same
- conversation a year later, when nVidia is your
- favourite again. (btw I don't believe you were an
- nVidia-fan, but that's one of the fluids things,

Believe me it will take more than a year for me ever going nVidia again. I have to see first hand that the NV40 really performs WITHOUT cheating and see how nVidia shape up if ever considering getting the NV50. That one I will only get if nVidia start to finally do things right with the NV40.

Believe me thrust is easily lost but hard to gain. Am I fluid? I have had the same opinion ever since I got my 9700 PRO. That it was the best card I have ever owned, easily the biggest upgrade ever but then I do buy video cards quite often. Geforce 2 gts to geforce 3 ti-500 to geforce 4 ti-4600. All this I have been very happy with.

Parts of me still want nVidia to succeed for two reasons. Have XGI, Nvidia and ATI battling eachother just can be good for customers as long as they don´t get the urge for cheating.

NVidia got far better stereo3d support than ATI (only 3rd party support) which is a real bummer since the 9700 PRO and such got all the power to run these beauties. IL 2 without stereo3d glasses just isn´t the same as with.

So why should we praise nVidia these days??? Any reason, anyone?

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:12 AM
Well I have always said nVidia is better for stereo3D gaming.

All I can find really...

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:15 AM
TomsHardware is not known for either their accuracy nor their independence.

They tend to rate hardware based on 1) how much the manufacturer pays them and 2) how far you can overclock it.


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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:22 AM
Heuristic_ALgor wrote:
- TomsHardware is not known for either their accuracy
- nor their independence.
-
- They tend to rate hardware based on 1) how much the
- manufacturer pays them and 2) how far you can
- overclock it

Exactly. That is what I have tried to tell people in here but many still thrust Tom. My bet is the only reason they admit nVidias poor performance is that they feel forced to not loose all credibility from the readers that knows better and it can´t be hide any longer.

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 12:33 AM
@oeqvist

Okay, one more word, that was allready spoken, btw, but I commented on that, before, too.

**I tested the 9800pro just 2 weeks ago.**

The tests I conducted with IL2FB, UT2k3, AmericasArmy(1.9.0) & BF1942.

On most games the difference was marginal, on Ut2k3, as I said, the benchmark(s) showed a clear plus for the nVidia (with Omega-Drivers)

IL2FB had errors with highest settings, only small errors, but there were small distortions and false colors in some textures. (Cat3.6)

Only in really high resolutions, like 1600x1200 there was a clear point for the 9800pro all the way.

And again, I'm not speaking for nVidia! I'm just pointing out, that you opinion of some company being the one and only good company is narrow-minded.


So, if you're pointing at me, I'm not praising nVidia at all. I would buy an ATi, too, now, but I wouldn't ever say: "Hey, ATi's so brilliant and won't ever trick on me, they'll get all my money."

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:35 AM
I think that Nvidia and ATI need to hire at least two of your guys each as official marketing reps. You make well thought out arguements and support them with unquestionable facts. Very well done! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Message Edited on 10/01/0304:37PM by UCLANUPE

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 12:39 AM
Hm, good idea. But I doubt they'd offer that job to me. I'd be to risky as a double agent /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

adlabs6
10-02-2003, 12:51 AM
Heuristic_ALgor wrote:
- TomsHardware is not known for either their accuracy
- nor their independence.
-
- They tend to rate hardware based on 1) how much the
- manufacturer pays them and 2) how far you can
- overclock it.


I saw this comment in another forum today also...

So Tom is paid by the maufacturers? I had no idea.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 01:34 AM
Yep, he's been a biased nvidiot for a long long time.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 04:02 AM
Now he's ATI biased /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 04:04 AM
Nope, he just can't twist the truth anymore with all the empirical evidence.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LLv34_Jani
10-02-2003, 08:35 AM
I think i rest my case!
Did u really think Nvidia would sit on their butts watching ATI sail by? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"We used ATI's publicly available Catalyst 3.7 drivers and in order to support the NV38 we used NVIDIA's forthcoming 52.14 drivers. The 52.14 drivers apparently have issues in two games, neither of which are featured in our test suite (Half Life 2 & Gunmetal)."

And regarding Aquamark 3 testing...
"Image quality appears to have improved for NVIDIA in this benchmark over what has been reported of previous drivers, and the NV38 handled the massive overdraw portion of the test the smoothest of all the cards."


http://www.anandtech.com/video/show...?i=1890&p=5

Quoted from a thread in the nvidia forums at www.guru3d.com (http://www.guru3d.com)

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 08:53 AM
They can't do much when ATI's hardware is superior.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:33 AM
Why do you people think you should give such loyalty to any one brand name, do you think they really give a rats *** what you think?.As long as they get your money they are happy.

Why not just look at the reviews and buy whats best at the time of your purchase ,thats what I did and I'am as happy as a pig in shyte /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

When people are more open minded about what hardware to buy then we all get the best bang for our dollar.

After all why try to outdo the opposition when you know your "followers" will buy whatever crap you serve up.



No1RAAF_Pourshot
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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:29 AM
But you have to realize that the 9800 PRO being slower than the ti-4400 in UT 2K3 just ain´t happening... Every single benchmark and my own testing of the 5900 ULTRA (which should be faster than a ti-4400??, not to mention my earlier ti-4600). None of these came close to the performance in UT2K3 (without 5900 ULTRA of course which is faster as would be expected).

So you stating the Ti-4400 being 3 times faster than the 9800 PRO in UT2K3 really asked to be asked questions about...

It just doesn´t happen...

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 06:57 PM
When a company is making great hardware with whql driver releases on time, with driver feedback and members of the driver teams taken time to listen to complaints in public forms, and WORK without IQ degredation, the support of that company is NOT FANBOYISM.

I bought nvidia when the G4ti series was taking the crown for performance and reliablity (although they couldn't run AF and AA worth a damn)-and I will do so again when nvidia turns back to the consumers needs and listens to their desires (on high middle to ultra high end cards).


What is funny to me is all of you guys that have to stick up for nvidia when some rational people site reviews, have experience with nvidia cards to reference, and prove that ATI is making some of the best VGA hardware for gamers these days, yet you accuse these people of fanboyism when you are ironically the ones being myopic.

rogo



<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 08:27 PM
oeqvist, you are a poor guy

Even your highly praised TomsHardware shows the FX-cards are AT LEAST as fast as the 9800Pro, even with 1/2 year old Det-drivers in UT2003-Standard-Benchmark (D3D, not even the OpenGL-Test!)

You should check the review of the just introduced 9800XT.

You really don't know a bit what you're talking about, and even the sources you're naming yourself, say the exact opposite of what you claim them to say.

The only thing I see, is that you feel betrayed by nVidia. But that is no reason to say everything that nVidia does is BravoSierra, while everything ATi does is SierraHotel and anybody who has nVidia hardware and is feeling comfortable with it, is either a lyer or stupid.

End of discussion.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-02-2003, 08:50 PM
I said it before,and i'll say it again. The 9800 Pro doesn't beat the 5900 Ultra in FB.

Future 9X games is a different story, but for right now. The 5900 is still my pick.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 08:58 PM
You and hunter need to run your two systems and compare txt logs.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz_25th
10-02-2003, 09:06 PM
Why? His is overclocked to the moon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
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Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 09:35 PM
I will run both cards on my system, when the upgrade is finally coming for real, for me, and decide from the results.

They are both overclocked by the max, but it still depends on the system and the games you want to play.



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:36 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- oeqvist, you are a poor guy
-
- Even your highly praised TomsHardware shows the
- FX-cards are AT LEAST as fast as the 9800Pro, even
- with 1/2 year old Det-drivers in
- UT2003-Standard-Benchmark (D3D, not even the
- OpenGL-Test!)
-
- You should check the review of the just introduced
- 9800XT.
-
- You really don't know a bit what you're talking
- about, and even the sources you're naming yourself,
- say the exact opposite of what you claim them to
- say.
-
- The only thing I see, is that you feel betrayed by
- nVidia. But that is no reason to say everything that
- nVidia does is BravoSierra, while everything ATi
- does is SierraHotel and anybody who has nVidia
- hardware and is feeling comfortable with it, is
- either a lyer or stupid.
-
- End of discussion.

Not end of discussion. Where you the only one who missed the irony in the topic title? Believe me I don´t thrust Tom for a second... And the reason I really dislike nVidia these days is not because they perform second best. It´s because of how they act against their customers.

And please post benchmarks showing where the ti-4400 scores 2-3 times better than a 9800 PRO in UT 2K3... If it only achieves that in your system and no others you have to use logic and see if there maybe is a problem with your system?

Perhaps you running a Celeron 750 or running 640x480x16 or whatever? Honestly I don´t believe I can reproduce that result with my old ti-4600 against my 9700 PRO even if doing everything to make my ti-4600 look good.

It´s all okay for Geforce 4 cards not perform well in todays dx 9 games or Open GL 1.5+ games since they are merchandised as dx 8 cards. It´s not okay for 450$ video card not be able to perform in dx 9 when it´s released years after the dx 9 release...

It´s not okay with cheating drivers. It´s not okay to lie and deceive people...

You really don't know a bit what you're talking
- about, and even the sources you're naming yourself,
- say the exact opposite of what you claim them to
- say

Nope the sources say exactly what I say just in kinder words. See what other hardware sites tell you. Just pick one of the major ones and see how many praises nVidia for their current strategy with their det fx cards?

See how many brag about nVidias superior drivers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
Believe me I am not the only one disappointed in nVidia. I saw nVidia on the top as well as I saw 3dfx on the top.

Back in the days when they still had the right goals in their minds. Had hoped 3dfx could live through nVidia but it sure doesn´t seems like it.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:39 PM
Why don´t you overclock your to Mars then? Don´t tell me you got the fastest P 4 CPU and went cheap on the cooling?

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:42 PM
ATI are the most bug ridden cards on the face of the earth.

If you play games, stick with Nvidia. If you want to kill bugs, go the ATI route.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:49 PM
You've never used ati rjb so your take a big dose of reality and get rid of your crappy g4ti4400 and pick up a bug free "golden driver" award radeon 9800nonpro for $225.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz_25th
10-02-2003, 09:54 PM
quote from oeqvist;

"Why don´t you overclock your to Mars then? Don´t tell me you got the fastest P 4 CPU and went cheap on the cooling?"


Still sounding as stupid as ever.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:57 PM
Hey Ray, I guess your not an ASUS fan anymore after seeing this picture.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/editorial/ati-rock/rick.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:09 PM
Rogodin wrote:
- You've never used ati rjb so your take a big dose of
- reality and get rid of your crappy g4ti4400 and pick
- up a bug free "golden driver" award radeon
- 9800nonpro for $225.


You obviously don't play games and read technical support forums. You also don't read the readme's of game patches.

ATI has bugs galore and you are in denial.



Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- Hey Ray, I guess your not an ASUS fan anymore after
- seeing this picture.

I have never owned an ASUS product. I heard they used to be good but have kind of slacked off as of late.



"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 10/02/0305:10PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:18 PM
I guess you like to stick your head in the sand.

You can catch me over at nvnews.net as Rogozhin
rage3d.com as Rogodin
beyond3d.com as Rogodin
Hardocp as Rogodin

There are now very few supporters of nvidia over at their main user website NVNEWS.NET

Why don't you go over there and post your fallacious opinions-you will get flamed quite badly RJB by people that know much more than you do about nvidia.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:19 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- quote from oeqvist;
-
- "Why don´t you overclock your to Mars then? Don´t
- tell me you got the fastest P 4 CPU and went cheap
- on the cooling?"
-
-
- Still sounding as stupid as ever

Why buy a P4 CPU at 3.2 for loads of money when there aren´t a single P 4 2.4C that don´t to 3.2 Ghz??? This is the reason I easily can build a faster system for half the money even if I go for a 5900 ULTRA /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-02-2003, 10:21 PM
I buy a 3.2 so I don't have to o/c. Hard for you to understand? Sorry../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:23 PM
And battle is still going eh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

Buzz_25th
10-02-2003, 10:24 PM
It's fun Ivan../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:25 PM
It's not really a battle either /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:27 PM
I don't hang out in geek forums where the only concern is FPS and stressing over .5 of CAS latency.

I check out gaming forums and read the readme's of patches.

ATI is just a buggy card that makes sacrifices for speed. If you own one, it's your problem. Quit trying to push your problem on others.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 10:27 PM
ATi has still problems with drivers. Even RavenShield, officially optimized and sponsored by ATi had to patch the game 2 times to make it work with all ATi cards.

Again, it's really much a question of what games you wanna play.

@oeqvist

Why should I spend my time searching you a benchmark result that you wouldn't believe anyway? With patched 3DMark2003 it got almost twice the points of original Dets, but you wouldn't believe it, right?
And one other thing: I have a 4800, not a 4400. I know you don't see the difference, but that's not my problem.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 10:34 PM
@oeqvist

Quote:

Did ATI "cheat" on 3DMark2003?

Version 3.30 of 3DMark03 not only defeated the DetonatorFX driver's app detection mechanisms, but it also managed to uncover an ATI optimization that landed the company in a bit of hot water.

ATI's optimization involves using a more optimized shader program in Game Test 4 for the water shader program, but according to ATI, this water shader renders ".the scene exactly as intended by Futuremark, in full-precision floating point. Our shaders are mathematically and functionally identical to Futuremark's, and there are no visual artifacts; we simply shuffle instructions to take advantage of our architecture..However, we recognize that these can be used by some people to call into question the legitimacy of benchmark results, and so we are removing them from our driver as soon as is physically possible. We expect them to be gone by the next release of CATALYST."


from www.extremetech.com (http://www.extremetech.com)

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:35 PM
I didn't need the patched raven shield for my 9700 or 9800 but my brother needed the patches for his 5900nonU.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:40 PM
You got it azz bacward RJB:
"ATI is just a buggy card that makes sacrifices for speed."


Nvidia's 5800 and 5900 have been having major problems and the forums over at nvnews.net have shown this-and I guess you really don't read anthing because NVIDIA is the one making SACRIFICES FOR SPEED!

Scandall after scandall and even ANAND won't recomend the fx to buyers. plus the question of the suspected clip plane insertions by nvidia in the HL2 benchmard with the new dets.

Nividia has ALWAYS sacraficed speed for IQ-just try running 4xAA and 4xAA (non quincunx) on your G4ti4400-my old 8500LE could run those settings faster than my G4ti4400.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:42 PM
It's funny listening to Rogo post complete crap that flies in the face of the majority. Try selling your bogus claims of ATI ruling the world over at the Raven Shield forums. Then go read about all the problems people have with ATI cards in this game. Then go read the readme's of game patches, where time and time again they list bug fixes for ATI cards.

Time to admit that ATI sucks Rogo. Even your fellow ATI owners think you are a joke. Go scam someone on ebay like you did with your last card and get a real video card ... from the kings of games, Nvidia.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Buzz_25th
10-02-2003, 10:43 PM
What convinced me to go with the 9800XT is Falcon won't build a system with the 5900 anymore.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:54 PM
i have bought nvidia all the time until now, but since nvidia does only sh't last time, im thinking about changing to ati. i need a new card, and i guess anything would be superior to my integrated geforce2, which is actual performing like a geforce 1 or worse... these nvidiascammers really disappointed me that time. (bought my mainboard a time when gf2 was a good card)

oh and before i forget, RBJ stop talking factless fanboy cr'p and go put something on a slider.

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:02 PM
DeBaer.534 wrote:
- i have bought nvidia all the time until now, but
- since nvidia does only sh't last time, im thinking
- about changing to ati. i need a new card, and i
- guess anything would be superior to my integrated
- geforce2, which is actual performing like a geforce
- 1 or worse... these nvidiascammers really
- disappointed me that time. (bought my mainboard a
- time when gf2 was a good card)


Integrated graphics solution is only for internet browsing. I have the same board as you and of course bought a video card for it before it even came in the mail. To say you got scammed by integrated graphics is naive. Know what to expect. When it comes to ATI, expect bugs.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-02-2003, 11:05 PM
Rogodin wrote:
- I didn't need the patched raven shield for my 9700
- or 9800 but my brother needed the patches for his
- 5900nonU.

Why? Since we all know nVidia only overclocks and doesn't invent, this sounds really odd. I play RVS a lot on LANs and it took until 1.4 to run on all ATi cards /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:07 AM
Can we please stop this?

Both cards are good for gaming and both cards have bugs in the drivers.
Both ATI and Nvidia release new drivers to fix stuff and to make games run better.

Deal with it and move along.

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-03-2003, 12:10 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- Can we please stop this?
-
- Both cards are good for gaming and both cards have
- bugs in the drivers.
- Both ATI and Nvidia release new drivers to fix stuff
- and to make games run better.
-
- Deal with it and move along.

Yippieh!

That's right what I'm saying /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Problem is, some don't care /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:13 AM
The reason Nvidia isn't doing so hot in DX9 is because they are using a higher level code than ATI that isn't optimized for the short term. Nvidia uses 32 bit mode floating point performance while these newest DX9 games that are so fresh are only using 24 bit (which is what ATI is optimized for). So it has to back-track in order to run these.

This is just a flash in the pan and will not persist.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:34 AM
RBJ,

I have a FX5900 Ultra. I think it is a good card. I do wonder why, if they are going to take up two slots anyway, why not just go ahead and vent it outside....

ANYWAY.

I run the 45.23 Dets. These seem to work great with everything (CFS3, IL2FB, GR, MOH) except for FS2k4.

Since you are so outspoken for the Nvidia's, I was wondering if you had heard anything about this and if you had heard about a fix.

BTW, if I turn off AA in the card, and let the game do it, it seems to work, but this is a pain.
AND I love Nvidia cards. Maybe they aren't as good as ATI for the time being, but Catylist drivers suck. I bought a 9700 once, and had nothing but probs with the drivers so I took it back and got a Nvidia.

Later

TinMan

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:34 AM
Highest resolution. all in Perfect, AA off. Decent framerates. Some choppiness over busy terrain.

1280x960x32. As above, but always smooth.

1024x768x32. Can use AA now and get smooth fps, but looks better in higher res w/o AA.

With all Excellent settings, decent fps in all but 1920x1440x32 when AA on.

Recent on-line, couldn't read letters above map because I forgot I had left it in 1920x1440x32 in Perfect. I didn't notice because it was smooth.

I like ATI, but this 5900 FX Ultra seems to run fine. Honestly, this is really not a tongue-and-cheek slam. I almost bought a 9800 instead. I'd still like to see it perform on my machine, but the "wod is shot" as they say, so the FX has a home for a while.

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 05:19 AM
I play raven shield every day on my 9800non pro and since I haven't been able to connect to the internet for the last month (last 3 days are my new hook ups) I've not played with patches and it runs rings around my brothers PATCHED version on his 5900nonU on a P4 2.4ghz.

For every opinion ranger there is the antipode.


You guys are lame trying to bring one game to the forefront that seems to have problems except that there are just as many if not more nvidia complaints.


ATI is superior these days no question asked and no discussion needed

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz_25th
10-03-2003, 06:38 AM
Rogo,

One game? GPL, F1 99-03, NR2003, IL2, FB. FS2004. Should I go on?

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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:45 AM
Not from what I've read Buzz.

It's the scientific method where you have to prove that it's true across all cases and I've seen posts where guys are playing the games you've listed (besides myself on a few) with no problems.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 07:03 AM
FS2004 is suck with any FX card , i have seen it with my eyes.
my nephew has FX5900U and he has FS2004 also, he's system i is laggy and images are choppy.
when i install the game in my system which has r9700pro on it, OMFG its smooth as butter and has no jaggies on the planes!! unlike with his system.

The Sun is Gone
But I Have a Light
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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 07:15 AM
ANd there are a few guys playing F1 on 9700s that haven't had any problems over at nvnews.net.


Buzz, you are old enough to know that your experience isn't enought to reach a universal conclusion.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz_25th
10-03-2003, 07:23 AM
I was talking about performance, not problems. Although there are problems in some of those games with the ATI.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
10-03-2003, 07:49 AM
Rogodin wrote:
- You guys are lame trying to bring one game to the
- forefront that seems to have problems except that
- there are just as many if not more nvidia
- complaints.


Thanks. That's really true. Good you've said that and I hope now all ATi fans don't think it's the best because one game (HL2), that isn't even on the market should decide what gfx-card is best for price and value. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(Just kidding, but then, I (again...) tested the 9800pro and it was an excellent quality with UT2003 and RVS and decent frame rates, until it came to some semi-transparent surfaces, water reflections and some smoke. I had these problems with UT1-engine and they were there with UT2003. If you think that makes this excellent piece of hardware a bad choice, that's not what I've said. Again, as I said almost every single post I made: I'd buy an ATi9800pro, too, nowadays, but that doesn't mean I would do it without testing and making up my own mind with the games I'm playing. That's all. I've never said something else. I just hate to hear "these are good", "these are bad". Nothing is black and white, everything is in shades of grey in life and you simply cannot judge a book by the cover or the author. Is it so difficult for all these people here to remain neutral and to look at a product without this prejudgement!? If you want a computer made of products that run without flaws in every test, your case would stay empty.)

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 07:56 AM
Well the ti-4400 is faster than the ti-4800se so it makes it even weirder. I am quite confident you can´t show any benchmarks on UT2K3 where the your ti-4800se isn´t heavily beatened by the 9800 PRO. It´s just hilarious you like to compare these two video cards. It´s like comparing a Geforce 3 to a Voodoo 2...

Since you seems need to be educated the ti-4800 is a ti-4200 with 128 mb of onboard RAM and AGP 8X support. To put things into perspective you gain perhaps 1-2 % performance by using 8x agp over 4x agp on a 5900 ULTRA or 9800 PRO...

You may think that the ti-4800 is faster than a ti-4600 but you are getting deceived by nVidias theme. ti-4800>ti-4200<ti-4400 and upwards...

So please go ahead and show those benchies. The best thing you can do is recognize that you made a misstake however...

Why should I spend my time searching you a benchmark
- result that you wouldn't believe anyway? With
- patched 3DMark2003 it got almost twice the points of
- original Dets

Noone believes you... It´s for your own sake looking at those benchies and realize how wrong you are...

I have never heard of a driver released with increase performance by 100 %. Sure nVidia has cheating 3dmark drivers but those only enhance the performance by about 20 % not 200 %.

Am not sure you being serious with these arguments???

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:00 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- The reason Nvidia isn't doing so hot in DX9 is
- because they are using a higher level code than ATI
- that isn't optimized for the short term. Nvidia
- uses 32 bit mode floating point performance while
- these newest DX9 games that are so fresh are only
- using 24 bit (which is what ATI is optimized for).
- So it has to back-track in order to run these.
-
- This is just a flash in the pan and will not
- persist.
-
- "The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace
- said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was
- still a newbie.
- news update (http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.p
-)



Ok, now you're sounding like an idiot.

Nvidia is using a combination of 16bit and 32bit floating point calculations. Hence they get great performance when 16bit calculations are used, but new games that have 32bit code are usually bringing the FX series to their knees. ie, all the new complete DX9 games.

Even if Nvidia used 32 100% of the time, which it doesn't, it doesn't have to "backtrack" or anything to do 24 bit calcs. it's like a monitor that can handle a resolution of 1600x1200. it doesn't have to backtrack to do 800x600!


wheas ATI is actually working as advertised when it uses it's floating points.. sorry I don't remember off the top of my head if it's 24 or 32.

Spets

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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:11 AM
Thanks. That's really true. Good you've said that
- and I hope now all ATi fans don't think it's the
- best because one game (HL2), that isn't even on the
- market should decide what gfx-card is best for price
- and value.

If you mention dx 9 games you have to mention Half Life 2. It´s game engine will probably run more games than even the DOOM engine. And 2004 all the major titles will be dx 9. Far Cry, STALKER, HALO, HL 2, DOOM 3 and much much more. So saying that the performance in future games doesn´t matter anything is living in a dream world.

Sure if you only play IL 2 or old games it´s no disaster getting a nVidia card this day. If you don´t care much about image quality or bang for buck that is.

And nVidia is very grey right now. They just don´t do anything right really so sometimes things are quite black and white.

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:13 AM
Are you referring to CG RBJ? I can tell you that nVidia has dropped it´s CG and instead are going to use microsofts shader language in the future instead... Tells quite a lot on what failure that was doesn´t it...

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-03-2003, 08:25 AM
GF4Ti4200 - Ramdac 275MHz, DDR 350MHz
GF4Ti4400 - Ramdac 275MHz, DDR 550MHz
GF4Ti4600 - Ramdac 300MHz, DDR 650MHz
GF4Ti4800 - Ramdac 350MHz, DDR 650MHz
GF4Ti4800SE - Ramdac 350MHz, DDR 550MHz (8xAGP)

I know.... "Anybody can write this, I want proof" [rolling eye, bored]

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 10:28 AM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- GF4Ti4200 - Ramdac 275MHz, DDR 350MHz
- GF4Ti4400 - Ramdac 275MHz, DDR 550MHz
- GF4Ti4600 - Ramdac 300MHz, DDR 650MHz
- GF4Ti4800 - Ramdac 350MHz, DDR 650MHz
- GF4Ti4800SE - Ramdac 350MHz, DDR 550MHz (8xAGP)
-
- I know.... "Anybody can write this, I want proof"
- [rolling eye, bored]
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger
-

Here are the specs. You have mixed up the RAMDAC with the GPU core I think. I think all Geforce 4 has a RAMDAC of 350???

But I was partly wrong. It´s clocked like a ti-4400 not a ti-4200. Mixed it up with the TI-4280...

Graphics Engine GeForce4 Ti4800 SE
Video Memory 128MB DDR
Engine Clock 275MHz
Memory Clock 550MHz (275MHz DDR)
RAMDAC 350 MHz
Vertical Refresh Rate 70-240 Hz
Max. Display Mode 2048 X 1536 X 85Hz
Bus Standard AGP 8X/4X/2X
VGA out port Standard 15-pin D-sub
TV-out port S-VHS & Composite
Video-in port S-VHS & Composite
DVI-I YES
2nd VGA YES

Cpt.LoneRanger
10-03-2003, 10:45 AM
Shouldn't copy'n paste, hm /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Okay, I bow down. ATi is the master of the universe, nVidia is a piece of worthless crap.

Man, I'm happy we got that clear. Thanks so much.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 11:09 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- I was talking about performance, not problems.
- Although there are problems in some of those games
- with the ATI.

There are problems with all cards in some games, it's not hot news either.
Being sound cards or video cards.
Some games even have problems with a type of motherboard or chipset.

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 11:21 AM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- Shouldn't copy'n paste, hm /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Okay, I bow down. ATi is the master of the universe,
- nVidia is a piece of worthless crap.
-
- Man, I'm happy we got that clear. Thanks so much.
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger

Did you copy and paste that? Where did you got that info from? You should maybe mail them and correct them then...

Flash Gordon is the master of the universe btw, but you are right nvidia FX cards is worthless crap.