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justiceboy
09-27-2005, 06:55 AM
Ladies and gents
I am not a pilot that is extreamly concerned with stats, but as a mathmatician, i am concerned. I see stat pages with kill/death ratio, gun accuracy, ground objects destroyed, kills, deaths, ships sunk, freindly kills, as well as many more. These stats are nice and quite interesting, but they tell us nothing about the pilot, as a pilot. Anyone can get 1000 kills if they play for 1000 hrs. Anyone can get a kill death of 500/1 if they kill then bail right after so no one can shoot them down. Anyone can sink 100 ships or 1000 ground objects given enought time. My goal was to find out how a pilot fairs overall on a per sortie basis. Everytime a pilot goes out, how well does he or she take care of business and try to make it home, or make an impact in the game.(cause it is a game). What i developed is a system to rate pilots, much similar to the quarterback rating of the NFL. Some would say this is inaccurate and what can it do for the game. Well i believe for the stat trackers it can help alot, and as for inaccurate, kill death ratios are inaccurate, because you can cheat your way to higher averages, by not being a pilot(bailing when someone gets on you so you don't die, actions of a weak game player). This method will fix that. If you are a stat tracker, it can help pinpoint what areas, one may need to improve,(we will eventually have bar graphs for each individual rating that is calculated into main pilot rating with sheets of 20 sorted by that particular individual rating, ie completed sorties). This rating system is not based on hours flown, it is based simply on sorties fown, and the aggregate average, of all actions taken during each sortie flown. In order to get a good accurate rating, fly a min of 100 sorties, you will notice at our stat pages how the pilots are sorted. Anyway here is a link to how it works.

http://oc77th.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=2

here is a link to the stat sight. you will notice a rating in the top 10's, then when you click on overall stats on left, you will see how the pilot ratings are sorted, as explained on websight. If you ckick on each pilot you will see his or her rating at the top.

http://70.86.90.122/il2sc/

Server is in HL Pacific Theater.
give it a try what is you rating.

Our pilots are gonna hate it, cuz most of us don't pay attention to stats lol. fly till we die. any questions or scepticisms let me know.

justiceboy
09-27-2005, 06:55 AM
Ladies and gents
I am not a pilot that is extreamly concerned with stats, but as a mathmatician, i am concerned. I see stat pages with kill/death ratio, gun accuracy, ground objects destroyed, kills, deaths, ships sunk, freindly kills, as well as many more. These stats are nice and quite interesting, but they tell us nothing about the pilot, as a pilot. Anyone can get 1000 kills if they play for 1000 hrs. Anyone can get a kill death of 500/1 if they kill then bail right after so no one can shoot them down. Anyone can sink 100 ships or 1000 ground objects given enought time. My goal was to find out how a pilot fairs overall on a per sortie basis. Everytime a pilot goes out, how well does he or she take care of business and try to make it home, or make an impact in the game.(cause it is a game). What i developed is a system to rate pilots, much similar to the quarterback rating of the NFL. Some would say this is inaccurate and what can it do for the game. Well i believe for the stat trackers it can help alot, and as for inaccurate, kill death ratios are inaccurate, because you can cheat your way to higher averages, by not being a pilot(bailing when someone gets on you so you don't die, actions of a weak game player). This method will fix that. If you are a stat tracker, it can help pinpoint what areas, one may need to improve,(we will eventually have bar graphs for each individual rating that is calculated into main pilot rating with sheets of 20 sorted by that particular individual rating, ie completed sorties). This rating system is not based on hours flown, it is based simply on sorties fown, and the aggregate average, of all actions taken during each sortie flown. In order to get a good accurate rating, fly a min of 100 sorties, you will notice at our stat pages how the pilots are sorted. Anyway here is a link to how it works.

http://oc77th.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=2 (http://oc77th.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=2)

here is a link to the stat sight. you will notice a rating in the top 10's, then when you click on overall stats on left, you will see how the pilot ratings are sorted, as explained on websight. If you ckick on each pilot you will see his or her rating at the top.

http://70.86.90.122/il2sc/

Server is in HL Pacific Theater.
give it a try what is you rating.

Our pilots are gonna hate it, cuz most of us don't pay attention to stats lol. fly till we die. any questions or scepticisms let me know.

justiceboy
09-27-2005, 07:12 AM
small error on sight gonna have to fix it tonight but you should get picture

F19_Ob
09-27-2005, 08:58 AM
I only use stats to see if I got the plane I bounced or left damaged.
I try not to follow enemies down, giving up my energy.

Problem with stats is like u mentioned the lack of details.
Stats are often missleading and may give the less observant totally wrong info.
One example:
When a friendly is in trouble I often spray after the chasing enemy to make him break off or kill, often from long ranges.
I also often fly inferior planes compared to the opposition and often are forced to fire from too long ranges to get some firing opportunities at all.
I often also use my tracers to force an enemy to maneuver (from long ranges, again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )so I can improve my situation and get closer and/or a better angle.
Now this ofcourse ruins my hitpercentage vs shots fired. The stats tells me that I missed a lot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

When talking about hitpercentage vs shots fired, one must also take into acount the weapontypes.

A short burst of 30mm canonfire kills most target with lowest possible rounds, but a Gladiator might need most of his ammoload to down a fighter.
Kill deathratio is also something that cant be used to compare or determine the best pilot.
Too many variables.
A Bf109 K4 pilot has a lot easier time than a il-2 pilot etc......

so people should view stats with sound contemplating, and just for fun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

justiceboy
09-27-2005, 09:39 AM
your right f19-ob most stats wont give you an indications of how you fly overall, but given enough sorties, you will get more accurate averages of how you fly. I plan on having graphs of each rating and how you compare to other pilots in the same areas. It takes alot into account, and you can tell the people who want to be pilots as opposed to the fly till you die pilots. I agree, that stats should be for fun, but lately competitions have been run, where unsuitable stats are used to guage the best pilot. I am confident that this is the only fair way to guage pilots. I have studied stats and averages for all sorts of things. And i know this, everything has a rating, the chair you sit in, the pc you are using, the games you are playing, the toaster you toast with. It is a way to find out how one object compares to another. I will have it more detailed in the future. But give it a fair shot.

TacticalYak3
09-27-2005, 12:05 PM
Interesting thoughts justiceboy. I like the feedback of stats and how it can challenge me to perform better.

You're exactly right. Numbers by themselves are meaningless without some context. Most stats I have seen, however, do provide the number of sorties. But you are quite right about bails and what not (which are not an issue with my hosting as folks are always required to land, and can only bail if legit - damaged plane, out of fuel, etc).

Anyway, one of the stats I like is Survival Rate (Total # Sorties - Deaths/Total # Sorties) x 100.

I have seen folks calculate averages like points per sortie, kills per sortie, and even detail stats like bullet hit percentages. There's certainly a lot to record if one is fascinated with numbers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-27-2005, 12:29 PM
I like to check my hit % as a simple guide on my own gunnery skills. I do the same thing when I go to the shooting range and pop clays, silhouettes or simple downrange marksmanship. I reload and like to keep a log of what works and what doesn't.

Having said that, the reality is as a 'comparison' of pilots there is little that it proves. If you're a diehard mudmover (I know some of the best there are btw) then your survival rate is going to be lower than a dedicated fighter-jock...typically.

There are too may intangibles not considered in the stats generation to use it as an accurate tool to delineate pilot quality.


TB

neural_dream
09-27-2005, 12:51 PM
Although I am a statistics freak since ever, I don't like statistics in a non-arcade flight simulator. They are perfect for sports, but a simulator is not a sport and there is no reason you should compare yourself to anyone else. Serious flight simulators are like good Role-Playing Games. You play a character, a pilot, and try to follow your orders, use your flying abilities, your intelligence and your experience to carry out these orders, but first make sure you survive. In that Stats have no place.

And as i said JusticeBoy i am a Stats freak. I can collect data and do graphs all day watching sports, but in a sim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif. A simple "max total consecutive kills and landing" would be fine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

justiceboy
09-27-2005, 01:27 PM
Neural, all things you said considered, it is a game, and games are played to win, for fun, or for determaning ones skill level. What i have done is determine what is important to the GAME PLAYING aspect. People call it a sim, and that it is, but in all acuality it is a game. I just made sense of all the numbers i see. as you will notice it doesn't matter how many kills you have, or how long you have played to have the better rating. If pilots want to increase there rating, they can notice the change after a few sorties, and slowly climb, or fall down the list. Playing for hours won't keep you at the top of the list on our stat pages like it will other stat pages. it gets rediculous to see the pilots who play all day at the top of the list as if they are the better pilots. If you noticed I am not concerned with my stats as a pilot, as much as i am as a mathmatician. When i see a #1 in front of a pilot, it needs to be there for a better reason than just, i am off all week and will play all day.
anyway appreciate the feedback Neural and no need to get http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif, some like it, others don't, we all have our preferance, perhaps i see you in the skies sometime. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BaldieJr
09-27-2005, 02:54 PM
I play games to pass time. Winning is no more a treat to me than someone picking up the phone when I call them.

But I'm a nutjob. Your results may vary.

nickdanger3
09-27-2005, 04:26 PM
I want to see some multidimensional scaling and some regressions to find out what makes a good pilot (leaving aside the debate as to what good is).

For example, is the % of hit bullets correlated to kills? Are the best marksmen the top scorers?

Max.Power
09-27-2005, 04:54 PM
I think that you'll find that the more experienced players are, the better they shoot and fly.

I personally don't exactly agree with your critique on k/d ratio. I mean, in my experience, a very small population of the *dogfight* community even cares about k/d ratio (judging from the INSANE target fixation). Moreover, if a pilot wants to shoot someone down then rtb immediately to collect his 100 points, that's his choice and is hardly illegal. You can pad your stats any way you want, given creative flying techniques. I think that judging stats on a kills/sortie basis would only indicate that this person is not a airquake tnb'er who likes the challenge of wading into a dogfight regardless of odds. I don't think that playstyle is a good indicator of skill, considering the turn-and-burn = skill elitism culture out there. Not every one of those guys can be idiots... that's not statistically likely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

justiceboy
09-27-2005, 08:07 PM
nickdanger3 i did not consider accuracy of guns, i don't think it is as important as completing the mission, who cares how many bullets it took to take down the bloody enemy as long as he is down. I could use it as a factor in calculating, but i don't think it will make a severe impact, but i guess it would come into play in tight races. And as for your question as to are the best marksmen the top scorers, No. If you continue to fly without even trying to make it home, then your death rating, or survival rating goes down. So it becomes irrelevent. But i will say this, the people i thought would be at the top, are at the top. Why? cuz you truly know who the good pilots are. The ones that take care of business, whether it be a bomber pilot, or a fighter pilot. The ones that try to fly like it were, in a small sense real life. If you look at our stats sight, you will notice changing in position, that will happen daily. Sometimes you have a great day, and sometimes it is bad. This will show as you slip and rise in the ratings. I guess I like it because it allows pilots who are good, but don't get to fly that much, because they have lives, to make it to the top, to shine a little.
Anyway I welcome all you you to give it a try and see how you do.
Try it before you bash it, see if you are where you think you should be.

TacticalYak3
09-28-2005, 01:02 PM
I think everyone is right (and no I'm not a politician http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

I wish the ranking system in a game like Battlefield 2 wasn't based on raw number of points, as this only results in "dead-beat" teens who play 10 hours a day being on the top of the leaderboards, but as mentioned not necessarily the best players.

Over a period of time, especially in a controlled environment (i.e., similar mission types), Player A who has the better stats has to be considered the better pilot (at least for that scenario) than Player B will poorer results.

Of course the stats can't capture how one managed to bring a damaged plane back home, only that he shot down that bomber. In the end, stats have a limited value to determine skill level.

The thread starter is just trying to capture more useful information.

TS!

rnzoli
09-28-2005, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justiceboy:
any questions or scepticisms let me know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I congratulate your attempt on trying stats in a different light.

I recently had a go at the same subject, and I figured that pilot skills translates to relative efficency: getting more results with less resources.

Results can be:
- points
- number of various targets destroyed

Some results are impossible to capture, such as helping a friendly to get home safely.

Resources can be:
- virtual life (death)
- virtual freedom (captured by enemy)
- airplanes destroyed or damaged (varies by plane type - older ones are less 'expensive', modern types are more 'expensive')
- time (virtual fuel burnt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Some resources can never be captured, such as getting help from a friendly by taking off someone on your tail.

Eventually, with some sensible weighting (death is most costly, and time is lest costly), it should be possible to arrive to just 1 single efficency figure, characteristic of skills.

Unfortunately, any individual stats will motivate people to become better by themselves, but not necessarily better in a team - or in fact, on the contrary.

nickdanger3
09-28-2005, 01:42 PM
&gt;&gt;nickdanger3 i did not consider accuracy of guns, i don't think it is as important as completing the mission, who cares how many bullets it took to take down the bloody enemy as long as he is down.&gt;&gt;

I think we are talking past one another. I agree that the formula that you set up is a far superior way of ranking pilots. I was trying to look deeper and see if the stats can tell us what factors are related to which other factors, so that we who suck can work on those aspects that really are more valuable.

Your point about stats that are not based on raw numbers is exactly right. At WarClouds, the streak stat is a very valid one in this regard. If you see a player with a Streak (or Best Streak) of 15 and only 13 sorties flown, you know that that guy is a killing machine.

That's why I'm interested in more robust statistical analyses. For all we know the best predictor of a pilots "quality" really is his gun accuracy. Maybe it's kills per sortie, I don't know. Maybe you've stumbled upon it. Put another way, wouldn't it be interesting if gun accuracy was very highly correlated with your Pilot Quality formula (which is to say, you can just use gun accuracy and be done with it).

I'm reminded of how people came to realize that RBI's and Batting Average are actually LESS useful stats in determining the quality of a hitter than On Base % and Slugging %. Quality in this case being measured by how many runs did the team get, since more runs usually means more victories.

So let's back up. What makes a good pilot? He helps his team win. OK. So you need to look at which team won which mission and assess what the differences were between the stats of the pilots on the winning and losing teams.

So with that in mind, why not include a calculation on wether the pilot helped to win a map?

Again, not bashing. I think this is a fascinating part of the game that hasn't been explored.

StellarRat
09-28-2005, 01:47 PM
You also don't get points or partial kills for planes you damage, but don't finish off yourself (for whatever reason.) This a particular problem for pilots that fly .50 armed planes. You damage planes all the time, but they usually don't go down immediately.

I really think the only true measure of success is which team won the mission. I haven't seen any stat trackers that show how many times a pilot was on the winning team vs. losing team.

neural_dream
09-28-2005, 04:47 PM
what he said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Jumoschwanz
09-28-2005, 08:04 PM
What are the difficulty settings on this server? I just looked on HL and it is not up! If it is full difficulty with limited icons at the most I will give it a try.

Jumoschwanz

OC77th-Stone
09-29-2005, 12:42 AM
JumoSchawnz, it is in hyperlobby as Pacific Theater. The settings are cockpit only, limited icons(friendly only) and external views....We tried it with no externals and no one ever joined, so we are gonna give this a try for awhile.

justiceboy
09-29-2005, 01:25 AM
Nueral, now i see where your getting, hmmm, now that would be some coding, but i am sure it is possible. Interesting thoughts, on how to compare, and analyze the stats, I do plan on having graphs breaking down each smaller rating, as to get a visual of what part of your flying, whether it be kills, death rate, or ships sunk, needs to improve. Ihave been thinking of inserting landings as well. I totally get where you guys are coming from and I like it.
I will look into the possibilities of coding some of what you asked for.
thanks for the input
S!

WOLFMondo
09-29-2005, 01:59 AM
Theres only 1 stat I've ever considered important, thats your deaths. I can't say on the servers I do play on I never die but my no.1 priority is not shooting down enemy AC, its staying alive!

rnzoli
09-29-2005, 02:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StellarRat:
I haven't seen any stat trackers that show how many times a pilot was on the winning team vs. losing team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Question: if there is slow map rotation, what happens when someone changes side to balance the teams evenly? How to deal with this from stats perspective in such way, that people don't flock over to the winning side just before the eventual victory?

Should maybe people in underdog teams get more points for successfully defending their objects for a period of time?

TacticalYak3
09-29-2005, 10:03 AM
I think the discussion has now focused on teamplay. As others, including myself, have said in the past, if BOB is to continue with a point system for the pilot, not unlike (but hopefully better) a game like Battlefield 2, folks need to be rewarded for teamplay, and not just individual actions. This may help in some measure to foster better teamplay.

justiceboy
09-29-2005, 10:58 AM
Well lets see. The survival rate and successful landings, will be something I can add fairly quickly to the stats, and eventualy show graphs for those as well.

hmmmmmm as for who is on winning side, that would be tough, but perhaps taking the flying stats for the time you are on a color, of all the players of that same color, get rating, compare to your rating at the time, and then calculate a "team assist rating". +/- rating.
If your rating is better than the team at the time, you get a + rating if you bring down the average, then you get a - rating. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif man i don't know about that one. unfortunate thing is how to store those stats to get an average using each calculation, of each time you fly to come up with an average.

If anyone can think of a logical way to calculate that, then it can possibly be done. After all they are just numbers, we just have to get them to tell us what we want.

But for now i will get working on the successful landings, and survival rate.
It will take a few days though.

justiceboy
09-29-2005, 11:02 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

TacticalYak3
09-29-2005, 11:37 AM
Exactly what lots and lots of numbers ALWAYS end up doing mate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Hence we invented computers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif