PDA

View Full Version : A question about BoB, the film and a comment for Cobra



squadldr76
05-25-2006, 12:23 PM
Ok, I have a question and you 'plane nuts here be would the perfect place to start. "The Battle of Britain" has always been a favorite film of mine, as has the history of the conflict. One thing in the film has always puzzled me though. It's the 109's. The cowlings on them has always looked too large in the film. Was this on purpose? Were they a different aircraft dressed up to look like 109's for the film? Or are they actually a specific earlier version with an unusually larger cowling? Any info someone might offer would be a great help to me. Thanks.

Also, Cobra, if you happen to brush by this, let me say that Hurricane Season is one of my favorites right now. You've really captured the feel that I've always wanted, diving after the Stukas as I pray that the 109's don't find me while I work. I'm looking forward to the next one. All I can say is HURRY! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That's all, guys. Thanks!

squadldr76
05-25-2006, 12:23 PM
Ok, I have a question and you 'plane nuts here be would the perfect place to start. "The Battle of Britain" has always been a favorite film of mine, as has the history of the conflict. One thing in the film has always puzzled me though. It's the 109's. The cowlings on them has always looked too large in the film. Was this on purpose? Were they a different aircraft dressed up to look like 109's for the film? Or are they actually a specific earlier version with an unusually larger cowling? Any info someone might offer would be a great help to me. Thanks.

Also, Cobra, if you happen to brush by this, let me say that Hurricane Season is one of my favorites right now. You've really captured the feel that I've always wanted, diving after the Stukas as I pray that the 109's don't find me while I work. I'm looking forward to the next one. All I can say is HURRY! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That's all, guys. Thanks!

Ishmael932
05-25-2006, 12:39 PM
I saw the film when it first came out. At the time there were articles about the film. The Bf-109s used in the film were from the Spanish Air Force. Ironically, they had all been retrofitted with Rolls-Merlin engines some years prior to the filming. This explains the difference in silhouette on the planes as the Merlin was slightly larger than the original engines.

MrMojok
05-25-2006, 12:51 PM
I have been watching "Piece of Cake" recently, and it looks like they have the same merlin-engined 109s in that one too.

squadldr76
05-25-2006, 12:55 PM
You know, it's funny. We have a Spanish 109 at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo near here and now that I think about it, that too has the larger cowling. So, that would make sense.

Thanks for solving that. I love that film but it's always bugged me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

berg417448
05-25-2006, 01:04 PM
http://www.realaero.com/buchon.htm

MrMojok
05-25-2006, 01:20 PM
How did the spanish manage to obtain a supply of Merlins, though?

Rattler68
05-25-2006, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
How did the spanish manage to obtain a supply of Merlins, though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hispano HA-1112-M1L Buchon

* Period: Postwar (1945-1959)
* Uses: Fighter
* First Flight: September 1935 (Bf 109)
* Display Status: Aircraft Storage Wing.

The HA-1112 airframe is a Spanish-built version of the famous Messerschmitt Bf 109G fighter. With no German engines available after 1945, early postwar versions were powered by the Hispano-Suiza engines. Later versions used the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. Altogether there were nine different Spanish variants using either of the two engines. Production ceased in the spring of 1961. Many were sold into private hands and are still flying in the air show circuit.

The installation of the upright V-12 engine makes the nose contours of the HA-1112 quite different from those of the original Messerschmitt Bf 109G, hence its nickname €œBuchon€ (pouter pigeon). The Buchon are popular performers and are among the only surviving examples of the famous German aircraft that can be seen in the air.

http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/collections/artifact...1112-M1LBuchon.shtml (http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/collections/artifacts/aircraft/HispanoHA-1112-M1LBuchon.shtml)

MrMojok
05-25-2006, 02:00 PM
thanks for that!


Edit*

How many true German Bf109s are left that are flyable?

Gumtree
05-26-2006, 12:05 AM
I believe the Merlin was not bigger as such but the reason the cowling is different is that the Merlin is an upright engine with the cylinder head on top and the typical V-shaped format .
Where as the Daimlier was an inverted V thus the need for fuel injection in the early models and its negative gravity advantage over the normaly aspirated Merlins with Gravity feed.

Thus the narrow topside of the Daimlier engine cowl can not be fitted over the Merlins since the engine is much wider up top than the inverted German Design

wicklow
05-26-2006, 12:11 AM
Also if you look them nasty Hienkles are also fitted with merlins. When I was a kid my parents took me to Sheppey(a small island on the Kent side of the Thames Estuary) and one day while building the old sand castles my dad said to me take alook son as 3 hienkles and their 109 (Buchon) escorts flew at about 500ft up the Thames to "bomb" London.

dazako
05-27-2006, 12:38 AM
The BOB film company made attempts to 'improve' the look of the 109's a bit by adding the tail struts and did some odds and sods to the variety of Spits to compromise a sort of Mk V-ish type.
There was an attempt at a Ju87 style by modifying a Percival Proctor,but apparently it did'nt fly so good.
There's head-on shots of Hurri's in formation where due to their limited number repainted 109's are used in the background as filler.
A great film and catalyst for warbird preservation.
There's a couple of great inside scoop books on the film,mine are currently packed away.
The sole airworthy 109e is here in Canada.It looks and sounds incredible,and was a real BoB partcipant flown by Hans-Joachim Marseille.
http://www.airic.ca/html/friendly_foes.html

I just found these pics today: http://community.webshots.com/album/144275379vYptDH

jolulure
05-27-2006, 03:27 AM
Yessss!!! Im spanish... my neighbour flew many aircraft. He has thousands of photos of henkels flew by him. He helped in the making of Battle of Britain, and first version Pattoon. Well, if you happen to have any questions about henkels, there is no one who knows better than him. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

By the way, dont you think that Hurricanes in PF are harmless, I have been 2 minutes without stop shooting at a BF from the back, and finally I killed the pilot!!! I think PF has badly modeled damage model made by low caliber guns. If you count, hurricane MK I has 8 x 0.303, that makes a total of 60,8mm. However, BF e - 4 has 2 x 20mm and 2 x 7,9, which makes 56 mm. Why is BF more damaging that hurricane???

ojcar1971
05-27-2006, 11:06 AM
Hello jolulure! I'm from Madrid!
0,303 machine-guns were weak weapons in real life. In the game is essencial to adjust them in a very short convergence distance. Don't fire them at 6 o' clock, because at 6 o clock 0'303 won't damage the engine or pilot. Try defection shooting at short distances.
109's 20 mm doesn't fire bullets. They fire shells. Like an artillery weapon. They carry a mix of penetrating and explosive shells and can do much more damage than a light machine-gun

the_av8tor
05-30-2006, 01:36 AM
MrMojok Posted Thu May 25 2006 13:00
thanks for that!


Edit*

How many true German Bf109s are left that are flyable?



None. The only true airworth 109 was operated by the British Ministry of Defence thought the 90's based out of Duxford. The last airshow it was in it had and accident and broke its back. the aircraft was only restored to static display. Its a great shame. I do belive there is a 109, or could be 2 in the states with a DB605 engines, but they are both the Buchon
's modified to accept the DB605

JG52Karaya-X
05-30-2006, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jolulure:
By the way, dont you think that Hurricanes in PF are harmless, I have been 2 minutes without stop shooting at a BF from the back, and finally I killed the pilot!!! I think PF has badly modeled damage model made by low caliber guns. If you count, hurricane MK I has 8 x 0.303, that makes a total of 60,8mm. However, BF e - 4 has 2 x 20mm and 2 x 7,9, which makes 56 mm. Why is BF more damaging that hurricane??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) What exactly do you expect rifle calibre MGs to do - break aircraft apart? If it's that, you're not gona see it...
The problem with low calibre MGs is that they only really harm a plane when striking vital parts such as the engine, radiators, fuel tanks, cockpit (with pilot) or control cables - other than that you will only sieve your opponent without downing him. In the real BoB German bombers often returned with several hundred bullet holes. Fighter aircraft are a lot smaller so the vital parts in effect are boxed more closely together and thus increase the probabilty of scoring a lethal hit.

BTW, why do you think they upgunned the Hurricane to an even high number of guns (12x.303) and later just changed to 20mm cannons both on Spits and Hurris?

2) Pls don't just add up the calibre of guns in mm. 8x.303 is not 60,8mm and 2x20mm plus 2x7,92mm is not 56mm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

It's still 8x.303 and 2x20mm plus 2x7,92mm respectively.

Damage does not increase linear with increasing calibre - a 20mm Hispano cannon for example deals out 4x the damage of a 12,6mm Browning, m'kay?

jolulure
05-30-2006, 09:33 AM
thanks. Like your answers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif