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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 11:22 PM
Im wondering if you flew the zero in fb, somethings very wrong with its manuverability, power to weight or energy bleed, I've read along time ago the hurricane was compaired to the zeros manueverabilty that they had the same ROT.

To me it seems like the zero can do the tighest split S's do loops around a quarter somethings very wrong with the fm and also the effect.

Another this is the effect .50 cals have on the zero and the ki84 it seems to take a quarter or more of your ammo to down one while the 109 yak la hurricane 190s p47s just about every plane in the game you can shoot off the wings of them pretty easy with 2 short bursts.

Just wondering if you can find any charts but somethings definatly wrong with the japanes planes ki84 should not be as strong as the 190 and the mustang shouldnt be weaker then the zero from .50 and .303

I would like to see oleg give the hurricane mk1 and iib more strenght in it guns.

Also the p40 and hurricanes seem like the only planes with severe stick pressure at 400-600kmph. As of now the p40s stand absolutely no chance against the zero. You can shoot one down sure but in 2 vs 1 or 1 vs 1 see how difficult even if the p40 has a huge alt advantage

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 11:22 PM
Im wondering if you flew the zero in fb, somethings very wrong with its manuverability, power to weight or energy bleed, I've read along time ago the hurricane was compaired to the zeros manueverabilty that they had the same ROT.

To me it seems like the zero can do the tighest split S's do loops around a quarter somethings very wrong with the fm and also the effect.

Another this is the effect .50 cals have on the zero and the ki84 it seems to take a quarter or more of your ammo to down one while the 109 yak la hurricane 190s p47s just about every plane in the game you can shoot off the wings of them pretty easy with 2 short bursts.

Just wondering if you can find any charts but somethings definatly wrong with the japanes planes ki84 should not be as strong as the 190 and the mustang shouldnt be weaker then the zero from .50 and .303

I would like to see oleg give the hurricane mk1 and iib more strenght in it guns.

Also the p40 and hurricanes seem like the only planes with severe stick pressure at 400-600kmph. As of now the p40s stand absolutely no chance against the zero. You can shoot one down sure but in 2 vs 1 or 1 vs 1 see how difficult even if the p40 has a huge alt advantage

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:06 AM
Going to contradict some of that methinks.

1) Zero feels to me much like the Hurricane in ROT. The Zero probably can do split S much better due to weight (the Zero was very very light - the Hurricane I thought was heavier).

2) I've found the Zero and Ki-84 to be the weakest when it comes to .50 cal bullets.

3) The Zero also has severe stick pressure at high speeds. Does seem strange however that the P-51, D9, a couple of Yak's (not the Yak 3 interestingly enough), and the Ki-84 can all turn very quickly at high speed. I'm glad that planes handle better in high speed now but I've seen a couple of manuvers that are very impressive. Sure blacks the pilot out tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:16 AM
One thing, I missed (I know, it's a beta..)
is the comprassability.
That should be a serious problem for the Zero when entering and sustaining dives...

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:28 AM
Stang is very capable turn fighter too, FW has no chance at all against it, and i readed somewhere that in really high speeds, stang has one circle time to get hit at opponent, cos it has better turn rate, but while turning more, going at slower and slower, FW should take upper hand in turn rate. and i wonder how P-51 is able to saw B-17 tail of with one sec burst. i wonder that how easy it is to down enemies with pony in BnZ attacks, taking lead and deflection is so easy, can score hits every time i Dive on at enemy, no matter what kinda evasive maneuvers enemy tries to do, always it get hitted. now try that with FW, no way.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:52 AM
I have to diagree with you on every point here Leadspitter.

The Zero seems very well modeled. It is maneuverable, but has a very low top speed and is terrible in a dive.

It seems quite vulnerable to .50s, as it should be. I actually shot down four Ace Zeros in a single mission yesterday. That is a first for me. One of them exploded in a giant fireball in front of me. I have never seen that happen with .50s before, really quite spectacular.

I think it is very well modeled. Kudos 1C.

Beergator

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 01:01 AM
Enofinu wrote:
- Stang is very capable turn fighter too, FW has no
- chance at all against it, and i readed somewhere
- that in really high speeds, stang has one circle
- time to get hit at opponent, cos it has better turn
- rate, but while turning more, going at slower and
- slower, FW should take upper hand in turn rate. and
- i wonder how P-51 is able to saw B-17 tail of with
- one sec burst. i wonder that how easy it is to down
- enemies with pony in BnZ attacks, taking lead and
- deflection is so easy, can score hits every time i
- Dive on at enemy, no matter what kinda evasive
- maneuvers enemy tries to do, always it get hitted.
- now try that with FW, no way.

P-51 is only good at turning at high speed and I suspect the global variables (if such a thing exists) for high speed manuvering is a bit off for all planes in the beta.

Scoring hits with a .50 cal does not equal instant kill. It rarely if ever does, even with the latest modifications. I saw one instance in several hours of play where a short burst was able to sever a wing...seemed like a bug or a one in a million statistical chance that will be present with all weapons.

BNZ is still easier in a FW...if you have the right lead on the target, you will blow it to pieces (or you aren't aiming properly). Conversely with the P-51 you need to be closer and you need to stream enough bullets on the target for a kill. A couple of well aimed 20mm's does much more damage.

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:46 AM
Lead, I reinstalled FB clean a few days ago, and only have the most current offical patch installed.

But from what I rememeber, the Zero rolled very fast at all speeds. Too fast I think.

And the thing did absord a helluva lot of .50 rounds. And frankly it's cannons seemed profoundly powerful.

I didn't do any measurements, but those are my recollections.



Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:52 AM
i had a zero out turn me on the deck last week. lol
i was in a IL-2 Field mod 50m off the deck @ 40% throttle with full flaps. Up untill now..i've never seen any plane in FB that could do this. the guy over shot me wiped around and came back for a head on in less than 3 second.
i've seen zekes pass me on a head on & be dead on my six in most planes in less than 5 seconds. I'm not saying ti's right or wrong. just saying what i've seen with my own eyeballs. lol

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:15 AM
well somethings wrong im sure oleg will spot it out before it goes final, goes from 200kts to 400 in a couple 4-5 seconds, hope you check it out skychimp,

shoot a mustang with the mustang then shoot a zero and see what im talking about, fire on a 190 and fire on a ki84 you will be suprised of course test it many times fight zero vs zero in a turnfight and you will see what im talking about.

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:16 AM
From a quick check(Mike Spick's Directory of Fighters) the Zero weighs less, has less wing loading and only a little less engine horsepower than the Hurricane. If it performs better than the Hurricane it shouldn't be too much of a surprise. Now as far as taking damage...

DangerForward



Message Edited on 11/07/0309:20PM by DangerForward

ZG77_Nagual
11-08-2003, 03:18 AM
Offhand I'd say the zero handles a bit too well at high speeds.

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:12 AM
After I read all posted message as I expected lot of talk about manueverabilty. In real life, Lot of Japanese pilots had been trained hard for low speed dogfight but not expected in diving speed. Yes that's true as so hard to roll when they are in higher speed. Also "butterfly" combat flap made huge different in manueverabilty on Ki-43 and some next planes.

I guess if anyone play in online dogfight then Japanese planes will best and when play in VEF then planes in B&Z tactic like Me109 are best when other side players lost attention in long flight to target.


LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- Im wondering if you flew the zero in fb, somethings
- very wrong with its manuverability, power to weight
- or energy bleed, I've read along time ago the
- hurricane was compaired to the zeros manueverabilty
- that they had the same ROT.
-
- To me it seems like the zero can do the tighest
- split S's do loops around a quarter somethings very
- wrong with the fm and also the effect.
-
- Another this is the effect .50 cals have on the zero
- and the ki84 it seems to take a quarter or more of
- your ammo to down one while the 109 yak la hurricane
- 190s p47s just about every plane in the game you can
- shoot off the wings of them pretty easy with 2 short
- bursts.
-
- Just wondering if you can find any charts but
- somethings definatly wrong with the japanes planes
- ki84 should not be as strong as the 190 and the
- mustang shouldnt be weaker then the zero from .50
- and .303
-
- I would like to see oleg give the hurricane mk1 and
- iib more strenght in it guns.
-
- Also the p40 and hurricanes seem like the only
- planes with severe stick pressure at 400-600kmph. As
- of now the p40s stand absolutely no chance against
- the zero. You can shoot one down sure but in 2 vs 1
- or 1 vs 1 see how difficult even if the p40 has a
- huge alt advantage
-
- <center><img
- src="http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LS1.t
- xt"> - Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter
- <a
- HREF="http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authori
- dfilter=:Leadspitter:&comefrom=top5&ts=1068087655"> - LeadSpitters Skins
- </center>

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 08:22 AM
S!



The Zero:

For a plane that had no armor or self-sealing fuel tanks, it takes a heavy dose of .50cal to shoot a wing off or make it burn.

Roll rate is too fast. At speeds approaching 200mph the roll rate dropped off getting slower as speed increased.



The Ki84 is harder to shoot down with .50cals than a 190. Japanese armor and self-sealing fuel tanks were reported not be very effective.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:00 AM
hmmm i dont know. I agree lead somethings not quite right. i cant put my finger on it. I had a Dora in coop last night plant hiself dead on my 12. i stayed with him for many mins @ close range. (withing 30m the whole time) & wmptyied all 6 barrels into him. still couldn't bring him down. I think RAF Buzzsaw had the same problem on that mission. as we were talking about in on RTB.
is it the 51's guns that are weak or is there just way to much armor on certin planes. i always have trouble with the late 190's DM. I'm no sharp shooter.... but i'll ba damned if even i can miss a guy that much at such short range.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:01 AM
hmmm i dont know. I agree lead somethings not quite right. i cant put my finger on it. I had a Dora in coop last night plant hiself dead on my 12. i stayed with him for many mins @ close range. (withing 30m the whole time) & wmptyied all 6 barrels into him. still couldn't bring him down. I think RAF Buzzsaw had the same problem on that mission. as we were talking about in on RTB.
is it the 51's guns that are weak or is there just way to much armor on certin planes. i always have trouble with the late 190's DM. I'm no sharp shooter.... but i'll ba damned if even i can miss a guy that much at such short range. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:11 AM
I dont think its the gunstrenght of the .50s to be honest but the damage model of the ki84 and zero. I understand its still beta but a 190 and 109 wing shouldnt come off quicker then a ki84 or zero. and .50 strenghts seem damn accurate on 190s and 109s yaks just about every plane, you need wing hits not fuselage hits

Cannons do enilate both the zero and ki84 from 1-2 hits, I think dm are really great now have the stronger fuselage and weaker wings but the zero and ki84 need to be reduced in wing strenght dm if oleg has it modeled that way. As of now they take alot of damage from .50 cal but its not impossible to shot down themt takes about half your ammo of good perfect convergence hits.



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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:22 AM
Oh god, of course I go and test this and what do I find?

4 zeros go down with 1-2 second bursts at convergence from a P-40E, leaving me with over half of my ammo. In each case, they burst into flames or exploded.

Ki-84s are much tougher, but not nearly as tough as a P-47. With the P-40E, it took on average 3-4 second bursts at convergence to take down a Ki-84. It IS tougher than a 190, but I imagine we will have some issues with the 190 due to the way it's damage modelling is handled. I had hoped we would get a complex DM for the 190 to replace the old Il-2 one, but unfortunately that takes a lot of work, so to rectify the excessive toughness we saw in 1.11, it would appear that the 190 has been made globally weaker. Tail and wings pop right off of it now when hit. Seems like maybe it's over done a bit, but we'll see as people test more rigorously (which y'all need to start doing before making the sweeping statements about DMs).

So, Ki-84 maybe a bit too tough, but don't compare to 190 cuz I think it's been made a bit too weak.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:14 PM
AKD go troll elsewhere this is ment for skychimp and oleg.

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ZG77_Nagual
11-09-2003, 02:43 PM
If I may be permitted to post /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
At first I thought the dm of the ki84 was off, but lately I've revised this, because I've also bounced numerous 37mm rounds off p51s as well. Obviously theses were glancing blows. The ki is tough - but solid hits do bring it down -so I"m on the fence about it's DM. The zero seems easily the most fragile plane in the simm. I think the high speed roll is off, and I have had them follow me in a 750kph dive - which doesn't seem right - but it is the later zero which was stronger. On damage from .50s or .30s I see no problem with the zero. Haven't got to the 190s yet but anything from straight six is not going to give the best results - bullent impact angles are too shallow.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:32 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- AKD go troll elsewhere this is ment for skychimp and
- oleg.
-

Whoa! Posting about actual testing in the game rather than poorly formed subjective opinions is trolling? I didn't realize that.

If this is intended for Oleg, what do you imagine he will think when you post that it takes half the ammo load of 6 .50 calibers to shoot down a zero, and then he loads up the game and finds that he can easily shoot down 4 zeros with LESS THAN half the ammo load of 6 .50 calibers?

Don't you think you owe it out of respect for Oleg to not post criticisms of his game until you have actually tested what you are criticizing?

Me thinks that someone went online and got shot down in a P-51 and decided that it's all Oleg's fault.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:59 PM
lol, it gets better: with the 8 .303s in a Hurricane I, I just destroyed 9 and damaged 2 Zeros before running out of ammo. Pilot kills or flaming infernos with each one shot down.

If you even look at their fuel tanks funny, they burst into flames.

Glad to provide the track if anyone wants to see it, but it's very easy to test. Just fill the sky full of friendly Zeros and go to town with their DM. You'll never feel comfortable flying a Zero again.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:10 PM
A.K.Davis wrote:
- lol, it gets better: with the 8 .303s in a Hurricane
- I, I just destroyed 9 and damaged 2 Zeros before
- running out of ammo. Pilot kills or flaming
- infernos with each one shot down.
-
- If you even look at their fuel tanks funny, they
- burst into flames.
-
- Glad to provide the track if anyone wants to see it,
- but it's very easy to test. Just fill the sky full
- of friendly Zeros and go to town with their DM.
- You'll never feel comfortable flying a Zero again.
-
---AKD

You're not using the 'being a good shot' cheat are you? :-)

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 05:57 AM
S!



Good shot cheat? What is that ?

I hope that is not something possible online.



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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:06 PM
LOL@AaronGT...good one!

I very much enjoy flying the Rei-Sen and Hayate in the beta. Neither are juggernauts like their Allied counterparts and require good SA to use successfully. Any hit to your plane spells big trouble.

OTOH, A team of either Ki84 or A6M using good tactics and communications could easily clear the air of any Allied aircraft, including the venerable Lavochkin and Jakolev fighters. In a simulation environment, the most significant troubles that plagued Japan are not really a factor at all.

Overall, I am highly satisfied and glad to be able to fly Japanese aircraft in this simulation, given its history to date. In closing, it would be wise for those of you who wish to make reports to gather and submit during this beta period any primary source data proving errant performance. Offhand remarks and "gut feelings", etc. do not mean much unless you are currently qualified to fly the airframe in question and have logged significant hours in it.



Message Edited on 11/10/0307:08AM by Bully_Lang