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View Full Version : ME-262 whupped by a Ki-27 Otsu?



FlyingPingu
01-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Ok, this is probably going to make me sound like a complete noob, but I'll ask this anyway. Is the ME-262 underpowered or am I doing something wrong?

Out of curiosity, I decided to pit a 1938 Ki-27 Otsu against an ME 262 HG-II (with me in it) in a quick mission, starting altitude 1000m, neutral starting positions. My tactical decision was simple, use my massive power advantage to climb above the Ki-27 and boom and zoom. It seemed like a turkey shoot.

I started climbing at full power as soon as the mission started and didn't engage straight away, aiming to get some height, but despite climbing and climbing, I kept looking back and the bugger was still there, just out of gun range, keeping pace with me. No matter what I did, changing climb speeds, flying level, diving away and then doubling back to attack, I couldn't make significant headway, having climbed to ~7000m dived to sea level, been repeatedly sniped at by the bleeding Otsu.

I've tried this in the 262 A-1a and HG-II over several flights and have had similar results. It seems really odd that a 1938 prop can keep such close pace with a 1944 jet. I'm running Il-2 1946 straight oob without patching.

Any thoughts?

J

PBNA-Boosher
01-15-2007, 06:47 PM
What was your speed? Power does not equal speed. Kinetic + Potential energy equals speed. If you were climbing at 220 kph, I can see an easy reason why that Ki-27 could follow you. We would need a track to understand fully.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LStarosta
01-15-2007, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
Kinetic + Potential energy equals speed.

When's the last time you took a physics class?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Tooz_69GIAP
01-15-2007, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:Kinetic + Potential energy equals speed.

The first thing my lecturer said in my first lecture of my aeronautical engineering course was that potential energy does not exist!!

Anyway, kinetic energy + potential energy does not equal speed. Potential energy is the energy which is stored within a system, but this is entirely theoretical, so from a practical point of view, this energy state doesn't exist, kinda. Speed (or rather velocity, I think) is more like kinetic energy (Force) - friction (neg Force - air density, gravity, whatever).

There's a bunch of other formulas within that, but I forget them. Anyway, I think that's how it goes, been a while since I thought of that stuff.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
01-15-2007, 07:10 PM
Hm, even without a track this looks odd. Were you climbing at a very steep angle? Try the experiment again and watch your speed gauge and record your speed at your altitude. Another factor---perhaps one engine was off---look at your engine gauges to see if both running.

VW-IceFire
01-15-2007, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by FlyingPingu:
Ok, this is probably going to make me sound like a complete noob, but I'll ask this anyway. Is the ME-262 underpowered or am I doing something wrong?

Out of curiosity, I decided to pit a 1938 Ki-27 Otsu against an ME 262 HG-II (with me in it) in a quick mission, starting altitude 1000m, neutral starting positions. My tactical decision was simple, use my massive power advantage to climb above the Ki-27 and boom and zoom. It seemed like a turkey shoot.

I started climbing at full power as soon as the mission started and didn't engage straight away, aiming to get some height, but despite climbing and climbing, I kept looking back and the bugger was still there, just out of gun range, keeping pace with me. No matter what I did, changing climb speeds, flying level, diving away and then doubling back to attack, I couldn't make significant headway, having climbed to ~7000m dived to sea level, been repeatedly sniped at by the bleeding Otsu.

I've tried this in the 262 A-1a and HG-II over several flights and have had similar results. It seems really odd that a 1938 prop can keep such close pace with a 1944 jet. I'm running Il-2 1946 straight oob without patching.

Any thoughts?

J
If i'm reading this right...you decided to outpower the Ki-27 by going straight into a steep climb yes? The problem is that the power of the jet engines isn't good enough in these early jets to just point the nose up and go like a F-15 can. You still need to climb like a prop fighter and achieve best climb speed. What was your speed in the climb? If you're climbing at the Ki-27's best climb speed and you're edging on a stall the whole time...no wonder he out climbed you because his best climb is probably still better than your worst.

Instead of climbing...bore in at him at full power, get 400kph of speed or more, go into a zoom climb at a 90 degree angle from him and then fall back on him.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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BillyTheKid_22
01-15-2007, 07:15 PM
http://hsgalleries.com/images/ki27jb_1.jpg


Ki-27?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
01-15-2007, 07:24 PM
On the other hand, you may have had a confrontation with the Japanese Ki-427-Kai-yi-yi which was under development for possible production around 1958. It was a Ki-27 with a small nuclear engine. Rumor has it Oleg slipped it into 46 just to freak out people inclined to pit Ki-27s against uberfantasyfighters!

FlyingPingu
01-15-2007, 07:31 PM
Yes, Billy, the Ki-27, hence my surprise and concern that my technique was "somewhat lacking" ;-)

I have just gone back and tried a few different climb speeds, I climb at about 10 m/s at 440kph (sustained, any faster it has trouble doing much more than staying level without dropping speed and any slower I don't actually escape at all), at that speed the Ki-27 doesn't actually catch me, but I escape really really slowly, to the point that if I could trim it out accurately I could have put it to 8x compression, made a cup of tea, come back and then have still only just gained enough room to double back and not get a face full of his radial in 15 seconds.

I know the ME-262 can't be treated like an F-15, but I thought they had a little more grunt than this...

FlyingPingu
01-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
On the other hand, you may have had a confrontation with the Japanese Ki-427-Kai-yi-yi which was under development for possible production around 1958. It was a Ki-27 with a small nuclear engine. Rumor has it Oleg slipped it into 46 just to freak out people inclined to pit Ki-27s against uberfantasyfighters!

Hey we all need to practise deflection shooting somehow ;-) You only learn to aim better when they are in front of you :-P

BillyTheKid_22
01-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by FlyingPingu:
Yes, Billy, the Ki-27, hence my surprise and concern that my technique was "somewhat lacking" ;-)

I have just gone back and tried a few different climb speeds, I climb at about 10 m/s at 440kph (sustained, any faster it has trouble doing much more than staying level without dropping speed and any slower I don't actually escape at all), at that speed the Ki-27 doesn't actually catch me, but I escape really really slowly, to the point that if I could trim it out accurately I could have put it to 8x compression, made a cup of tea, come back and then have still only just gained enough room to double back and not get a face full of his radial in 15 seconds.

I know the ME-262 can't be treated like an F-15, but I thought they had a little more grunt than this...


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FlyingPingu
01-15-2007, 07:52 PM
Interestingly, with the Ki-27 I can keep position under an AI ME-262 just as easily as they kept position with me, denying them the space to make a planned attack...

BillyTheKid_22
01-15-2007, 08:07 PM
Kein plm!!! Ok!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Vike
01-15-2007, 08:18 PM
Flying Pingu,AFAIK,the best defence is...Attack. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

You have a enormously better plane,why not simply attack the little Ki? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Tip:For fighting "inferior" planes,while using German jets,combat flaps can *greatly* help,just keep an eye on speed! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Here is a track,versus a Ki27Otsu russian Ace bot.

I used moderate throttle (~80%).In less than a minute,it was over. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Enjoy:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Ki27otsu DOOMsDAY (http://vike01.free.fr/images/Ki27otsuDOOMsDAY(AceMode).ntrk) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif



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avimimus
01-15-2007, 08:35 PM
I assume one attacks by going into a turning dogfight? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...

leitmotiv
01-15-2007, 08:55 PM
A slow plane can give a fast plane a great deal of grief. If you are seeking some gunnery practice, probably better to use 16 C-47s than a Ki-27. This is like pitting a Fokker triplane against a Spitfire I. As long a the Fokker is turning, the Spitfire will have no joy.

VW-IceFire
01-15-2007, 09:07 PM
Interesting! I went in and tried it out. The best technique is to bore straight in and blow the Ki-27 up. Failing that, dive...get to 650kph...pull up, do and overhead reversal and come down on him.

The tricky bits are that the Ki-27 is so maneuverable that it can flip on a dime. So the AI is always facing you no matter what your attack vector. He just turns around and faces you.

Also...in checking IL2 compare...the Ki-27's climb rate for medium and low altitude is similar to many higher performance late war aircraft including the Me-262. I'm not sure if this is accurate but the Ki-43 is in a similar boat. Could be a matter of power to weight...these little gems have quite a bit of engine power for very little weight. The Tempest V on normal (non-WEP) power, according to IL-2 compare, doesn't overtake the Ki-27 for climb until 6000m. On WEP its no contest...Tempest wins. But the Tempest is also something like 4 times the weight.

Not sure how that sits.

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JR_Greenhorn
01-15-2007, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
Kinetic + Potential energy equals speed.

When's the last time you took a physics class? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks, LStarosta, that gave me my Official Best Laugh of the Day.




Originally posted by FlyingPingu:]
I know the ME-262 can't be treated like an F-15, but I thought they had a little more grunt than this... I think here is most of your problem. Although "grunt" is not a highly technical term, it is a very specific term when discussing engine-powered vehicles (of all types). The grunt you're looking for can be found in this sim in the rocket planes liket the BI-1 & -6 and Me 163. Just for fun, try the same scenario and strategy out with one of those planes (preferrably the BI-1).

Now, while the Me 262 doesn't have much grunt, what it does have can be described by another not very technical but highly specific term: "long legs." Think of the Me 262 as a big, fast locomotive. It may take it a while to pull away from the station, and even longer to get up to speed, but once it does there's no stopping it. You've got to give the plane some room to stretch its legs and build some speed. Once you do, don't give up very much speed for anything. Keep it fast; you don't need very many good hits when you're firing 30mm rounds.



Remember that historically, Me 262's required prop fighter cover for taking off and landing. The jets were virtually defenseless in those situations, as they could not accelerate quickly enough to get away.

I recall reading somewhere is that the best way to get away in an Me 262 if someone got the jump on you is to give it full power and fly straight. With luck, you'll get up to speed before your plane gets shot out from under you. If you do manage to get up to speed, you'll get away and nothing will touch you.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Bellator_1
01-15-2007, 11:08 PM
The Me-262 was infact a very capable dogfighter as long as the speed stayed high. It had excellent high speed control and its amount of excess thrust at medium to high speed was much greater than that of any prop fighter, allowing it to actually out-turn the prop fighters at these higher speeds. Another characteristic of the Me-262 was its reluctance to loose speed in even the tightest of turns, which meant that once you were up to speed it would take a lot of harsh maneuvering to bring you down to slow speed again - making it an excellent high-speed-fighter/Interceptor.

However going slow against a prop fighter in the Me-262 would render you a sitting duck, as the propeller driven fighters accelerate much quicker at slow speeds than jet fighters do. - Hence why landing and taking off was so dangerous for the Me-262 pilots.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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chris455
01-15-2007, 11:50 PM
Horsepower/Thrust to weight ratio and it's effect on airspeed in game is conversely proportional to the aerodynamic co-efficient - and thus acceleration- of any plane Oleg likes alot. And if the AI happens to be is flying it, hunker down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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general_kalle
01-16-2007, 12:10 AM
its very easy X=Y-2 *24/5-6 (520*(-4/5) + 901^2%

thats it

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trumper
01-16-2007, 07:01 AM
Vike,i watched the ntrk you posted.The AI KI 27 did'nt move much,just seemed to wait to be shot down.I would guess had it used its manouvrability it would be hard,or harder to shoot down.

LStarosta
01-16-2007, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Interesting! I went in and tried it out. The best technique is to bore straight in and blow the Ki-27 up. Failing that, dive...get to 650kph...pull up, do and overhead reversal and come down on him.

The tricky bits are that the Ki-27 is so maneuverable that it can flip on a dime. So the AI is always facing you no matter what your attack vector. He just turns around and faces you.

Also...in checking IL2 compare...the Ki-27's climb rate for medium and low altitude is similar to many higher performance late war aircraft including the Me-262. I'm not sure if this is accurate but the Ki-43 is in a similar boat. Could be a matter of power to weight...these little gems have quite a bit of engine power for very little weight. The Tempest V on normal (non-WEP) power, according to IL-2 compare, doesn't overtake the Ki-27 for climb until 6000m. On WEP its no contest...Tempest wins. But the Tempest is also something like 4 times the weight.

Not sure how that sits.

ODD!

Think of the X and Y component vectors of a climbing airplane. The Ki-27 may match the Y component of many aircraft, but it is highly doubtful that it can match the X component of the climb vector. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



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