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View Full Version : Have u seen any hackers in IL2?



Afromike1
09-06-2008, 01:38 PM
This game has been out for over 7 years and I have not been able to see any OBVIOUS hackers online yet.

Sure I see tons of times when the server says `CHEATING HAS BEEN SPOTTED` but is the game THAT good at detecting cheaters? Is the game really unhackable?

Have you guys seen any hackers?

slipBall
09-06-2008, 01:54 PM
Don't worry, everyone has to much love and respect for Oleg, to go ahead and hack the game on him.

general_kalle
09-06-2008, 02:06 PM
Cheating has been detected just means that theres lagg in the game...warping planes and such.

Bearcat99
09-06-2008, 02:14 PM
I have not seen any hacking that I could tell.. even after the release of the unofficial mods that threatened to divide the community. Which is IMO a good thing.

RepublicofTexas
09-06-2008, 02:19 PM
Everytime I get shot down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

triad773
09-06-2008, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Afromike1:
This game has been out for over 7 years and I have not been able to see any OBVIOUS hackers online yet.

That's because they will be severely pummeled by the other fliers and banned from that server http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif Strength in the community I consider it.

LEXX_Luthor
09-06-2008, 05:20 PM
triad::
Strength in the community I consider it.
I've been thinking of this. Shucks, the Offline play community in Shockwave's BoB2 is far stronger than this community ever was, at least at this forum, until recently perhaps. Only a weak community has to depend on endless snotty insults and accusations that we saw at this forum for many years, and have to be somewhat supported by or "given a pass" by the serial moderators (Oleg was forced out as well). Now, with more online players going Mod and not cheating, and not willing as paying customers to tolerate bullying accusations, this can become a strong community as well.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif


Indeed, the sheer strength of Shockwave's Offline play community is something all The Devs should take note of.

Chivas
09-06-2008, 06:04 PM
Shockwave BOB community has some very good people but its quite small compared to the IL-2 community. If BOB WOV could have gotten their on-line componant to work you would have seen the same problems over there.

Now that IL-2 has one of the best English Channel 1940 maps I've ever seen, especially with the trees and hedgerows mod. WOV could even start to have alittle competition in the Battle of Britain market. The map is a work in progress, but Canon and Campons say things are looking very good for the final.

LEXX_Luthor
09-06-2008, 06:43 PM
Chivas::
If BOB WOV could have gotten their on-line componant to work you would have seen the same problems over there.
You may be right, and The Devs should pay close attention to this. But if they did get online play working, it may not be handled the same as in FB/PF. For one thing, BoB2 devs know very clearly what a dynamic campaign can be, and so *should* have some idea of what Online War can be.

ImMoreBetter
09-06-2008, 07:12 PM
I've seen one hacker online. He hacked the planeset.

Everyone yelled "Boot him!"

And he was booted and banned.

SeaFireLIV
09-06-2008, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Afromike1:
This game has been out for over 7 years and I have not been able to see any OBVIOUS hackers online yet.

Sure I see tons of times when the server says `CHEATING HAS BEEN SPOTTED` but is the game THAT good at detecting cheaters? Is the game really unhackable?

Have you guys seen any hackers?

I did have one rare occurence the other day when chasing a 109 close. I was taking shots at him and he would `scoot` forward a little. He kept doing it as I chased him, always pushing himself forward a couple of virtual meters ahead. It was so off putting that I failed to down him. It was like watching a dragonfly that does those sudden move fast to a spot ahead movement, but in small increments. My Squad wingman mentioned he could see it too.

Now this was not the standard lag (I`ve been flying online enough to know the difference) that sometimes affect aircraft, it was something else.

Afterwards, i posted in chat about his strange movements and asked if he had lag and he simply said, "I don`t know."

Without further evidence to prove anything I had to leave it. But it was curiously strange.

VW-IceFire
09-06-2008, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afromike1:
This game has been out for over 7 years and I have not been able to see any OBVIOUS hackers online yet.

Sure I see tons of times when the server says `CHEATING HAS BEEN SPOTTED` but is the game THAT good at detecting cheaters? Is the game really unhackable?

Have you guys seen any hackers?

I did have one rare occurence the other day when chasing a 109 close. I was taking shots at him and he would `scoot` forward a little. He kept doing it as I chased him, always pushing himself forward a couple of virtual meters ahead. It was so off putting that I failed to down him. It was like watching a dragonfly that does those sudden move fast to a spot ahead movement, but in small increments. My Squad wingman mentioned he could see it too.

Now this was not the standard lag (I`ve been flying online enough to know the difference) that sometimes affect aircraft, it was something else.

Afterwards, i posted in chat about his strange movements and asked if he had lag and he simply said, "I don`t know."

Without further evidence to prove anything I had to leave it. But it was curiously strange. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He may well have been cheating...I won't discount that because I wasn't there but I've seen something similar and I've had someone else report it that I was doing it and here's why.

I was flying with people I knew and I was on TS with them...and they knew me well enough that they knew I wasn't cheating. But my plane was stopping and starting on their screens sort of like what you were talking about. Turns out, for whatever reason, HyperLobby which normally minimizes in the background was in full lobby mode...

Every new message caused my system to pause slightly and thus I could see it a bit on my side and they could REALLY see it on their side.

So it was a sort of consistent lag...it was bothering me too but it was even worse for them.

So it *may* not have been cheating as well. I know some people were manipulating their connections to gain some small advantage a while back too but that was also different.

Not much cheating has gone on in IL-2. Combination of programming and strong community I think. I haven't seen anything in the years I've been playing. Thank goodness. Cheating, unchecked, can destroy MP comunities.

Treetop64
09-06-2008, 10:52 PM
Back years ago when I flew online my plane got hacked to pieces at an unacceptably high rate. Sure it still happens nowadays...

jayhall0315
09-07-2008, 01:40 AM
I once ran into a guy late one night (North American night time that is) who showed me his invisible plane. I was on the War Clouds server as a noob and he had a cheat mod where he could make his plane invisible and then attack me, and then reappear his plane when I was flaming on the way down. He demonstrated it for me about three times and then said that he was a CS major in the North East and then logged off. I have not run across him since, but I have always been wary since then.

Jay

Vortex_79
09-07-2008, 04:34 AM
~S~

Jayhall0315, do you happen to remember his callsign? I'm a WC Mod and any activity like that = instant life time ban.

If any WC player sees anything like that, then please post on our forums so that we can stop these people and protect those playing online.

Thanks...

gdfo
09-07-2008, 04:55 AM
If a person can hack the game they can certainly get around 'banning'.

The 'invisible' plane has been around for a while.

jayhall0315
09-07-2008, 04:57 AM
First, Vortex, let me say S! I have come to really enjoy War Clouds. Sometimes I secretly wish you guys would place the bases a little closer together for quicker action, but a damn fine server.

I do not remember exactly but his name was something like ...Canterelli, or something similar to that. He did not have a squad prefix in front of his callsign, so I am pretty sure he was a lone wolf.

Seeing that invisible plane though first hand and then having people tell me later that FM mods do not exist or I imagined it, well it was surprising.

Take care and keep up the good server,
Jay

Vortex_79
09-07-2008, 07:18 AM
~S~ Jayhallo315...

Many thanks for getting back to me. I've done a search for that name and even shortening down his callsign I'm afraid doesn't bring up any hits. Hopefully it was a one off and he hasn't been back.

Also, thank you for your kind words about the server! We're glad that you and many others enjoy it for what it is. Bases are placed like that so that anyone wishing to base raid has to do some planning and not just sweep in. It also gives bombers a chance to get on-route and not be shot down as they spawn. This all means that teamwork is essential, those who fly by themselves tend not to do so well.

As for banning, it is certainly difficult, but its possible to ban ip ranges and even whole area's such as towns and to the extreme, whole countries, which has been done!

These 'Mods' are certainly leading to difficult times for those servers who wish to keep the purity of IL2 alive, which is what WC intends to do for the the foreseeable future.

Aaron_GT
09-07-2008, 09:35 AM
I did have one rare occurence the other day when chasing a 109 close. I was taking shots at him and he would `scoot` forward a little. He kept doing it as I chased him, always pushing himself forward a couple of virtual meters ahead. It was so off putting that I failed to down him. It was like watching a dragonfly that does those sudden move fast to a spot ahead movement, but in small increments. My Squad wingman mentioned he could see it too.

I have seen the same. What it could be (other than cheating) is (and this is guesswork!) the server load is too high and his connection is poor. The server has to track your bullets, and then pass the information to him. If his connection is poor the server estimates his course but if the server is heavily loaded tracking your bullets it might not be doing the estimation correctly. I always got the impression in old Warbirds that it prioritised position first, and if load was high it tended to forget about your bullets (hence the old Warbirds 'rubber bullets' problem).

Stingray333
09-07-2008, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I did have one rare occurence the other day when chasing a 109 close. I was taking shots at him and he would `scoot` forward a little. He kept doing it as I chased him, always pushing himself forward a couple of virtual meters ahead. It was so off putting that I failed to down him. It was like watching a dragonfly that does those sudden move fast to a spot ahead movement, but in small increments. My Squad wingman mentioned he could see it too.

I have seen the same. What it could be (other than cheating) is (and this is guesswork!) the server load is too high and his connection is poor. The server has to track your bullets, and then pass the information to him. If his connection is poor the server estimates his course but if the server is heavily loaded tracking your bullets it might not be doing the estimation correctly. I always got the impression in old Warbirds that it prioritised position first, and if load was high it tended to forget about your bullets (hence the old Warbirds 'rubber bullets' problem). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have seen this "scooting" phenomena many times online. Not only does it make dogfighting hard, but any thing like formation flying or aerobatics becomes very difficult.

I don't think that it is cheating, merely the result of how the game handles lag. What is happening is that the client is constantly sending position, velocity and orientation information about the aircraft you are flying to the server. Should your internet connection become "lagged", either slow or perhaps your packets momentarily are not getting to the server, essentially the server doesn't know where you are, but it knows where your location and your orientation the moment before the communication "lag" happened.

Now, from the perspective of someone flying behind you, it would look very jerky if their game just rendered the information that you sent to the server. There is some estimation that must take place so that the animation is smooth continuous to the person flying behind you.

So if your packets happen to have momentary trouble, rather than stopping your plane in mid air, or your plane disappearing, the game uses your current heading and airspeed to continue moving you along your trajectory, and hopes that when your packets do arrive specifying your position, orientation, etc, that the guess it had to make in the interim time is not too far off. If the guess is off, then it will interpolate between where the game client is drawing you at and your true position and quickly "scoot" you to the correct position.

This "scoot" is necessary because for someone following you, you would simply appear to teleport to a new position if they did not animate it.

So, I would definitely say that it is not cheating, just the a reality of playing games on the internet.

Here is something to keep in mind: first person shooters typically require very low lag to play well online... playing counter strike or day of defeat, I like to be under 60.. under 80 is ok, but more than that becomes a hindrance. So when you play these games you tend to only play on servers that you get good lag on.. servers in Europe definitely out of the question, and servers with a far geographic distance typically have high lag.

The nature of flight sims, where your motion is dictated by the physics of flight, and hence follows a smooth trajectory where you line up for a shot, means that the game is playable with a much higher lag level. Seems that I can play with a ping of 200ms or higher with no problems.. in an FPS that type of ping would be a death sentence.

This means that people on these servers can, essentially be playing almost anywhere in the world. So, there may be the potential for a few more little "hiccups" in the connection as people you are playing with and against are communicating to you over an ocean or a continent.

Stingray

Aaron_GT
09-07-2008, 11:41 AM
The fact that the scoot tends to be more of an issue when close to another plane makes me wonder if it handles things a little differently for near and far objects on the basis that you are likely to be less interested in far objects, and perhaps (if there is such a difference) this causes more problem with jerkiness in close-in objects?

The flip side to this is when you get shot down by someone not that close to you or not apparently in a decent firing position - they are lagging relative to you, but on their machine you are right in their sights.

As you say, the only real solution is very low lag. I've seen lags up over 500ms before, although I think most servers set the absolute limit at that or under.

Stingray333
09-07-2008, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
The fact that the scoot tends to be more of an issue when close to another plane makes me wonder if it handles things a little differently for near and far objects on the basis that you are likely to be less interested in far objects, and perhaps (if there is such a difference) this causes more problem with jerkiness in close-in objects?


I suspect that this is only because you are close enough to notice, have your pipper trained on the target and are watching it like a hawk going for the kill, rather than when an object is at distance, where you are maybe not watching it as closely. However, without knowing more details as to the inner workings of IL-2 and what Oleg and his crew did, it is impossible for me to say with any certainty.

I must say however, that on my observations and experiences, the networking implementation by IL-2 seems very good and robust compared to some of the networked games I have played.

I have noticed, that when I am on the tail of a plane and shooting, and it has lag, that it will appear to be flying very oddly, like moving in very odd ways and not on the natural trajectory of what the plane should be flying given its attitude and orientation. I find that when the plane is doing this, probably due to lag, that it is very difficult to hit, and even if I am putting bullets directly into its tail from 20 meters away, that it will not go down, and I have learned to just resist the urge to go for the kill when I suspect there is some lag at issue I try to just maintain my position of advantage, watch my 6, and wait for it to fly "normally" again.

Stingray

Bearcat99
09-07-2008, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:

Only a weak community has to depend on endless snotty insults and accusations that we saw at this forum for many years, and have to be somewhat supported by or "given a pass" by the serial moderators (Oleg was forced out as well). Now, with more online players going Mod and not cheating, and not willing as paying customers to tolerate bullying accusations, this can become a strong community as well.


Not quite sure how to take your post there Lexx... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think this community has always been pretty darned good.. and pretty strong. Even at the height of the whole mod fracas.. it was only the passion for this sim that incited such vitriolic fervor.. and the fact that that has not only calmed down.. but that fact that the "serial moderators" over here were the first of the big 3 meaning UBI, SHQ & M4T to relax the policy on mods.. inspite of sometimes very vocal opposition, says IMO a lot about this "weak community" and it's "serial moderators".

jayhall0315
09-07-2008, 04:11 PM
That is why I am still posting here instead of keeping my ideas to myself. The moderators here are fairly reasonable. Some of the guys at these other sites wouldnt really have done well as pilots during the war (I know, I shot them down in HL), but they sure would have made it in Goebbels censorship bureau.

Jay

Remember that it is the free flow of info that outs the cheaters and bad mods and not a draconian policy that only makes it harder to learn what is really going on.

BigKahuna_GS
09-07-2008, 05:26 PM
S!


The biggest cheat I ever experienced first hand was the prop pitch cheat on War Clouds. I was in a 1v1 P51D vs 109G-10 and I held the altitude advantage at around 21,000ft. I knew this pilot way back from from my EAW days and I had flown many times against him before. I forced the 109 to dive away from around 17,000ft to 12 or 11,000 thousand feet and I did not pursue him down as I wanted to maintain my energy and altitude advantage.

Well later this 109 came screaming back up to about my altitude at around 20,000ft and leveled off-he was going very slowly as he bleed all his energy off in the very steep climb. I still had a slight advantage and made a run at him. When this 109 saw me coming he pulled his plane straight up on it's tail from a near zero energy state he climbed nearly 400ft straight up without stalling. We were co-alt at the time and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. After the encounter I confirmed his energy state when the 109 went vertical. I had no idea at the time that the prop pitch cheat existed. I only knew that no WW2 aircraft should be able to do that at 20,000ft moving very slowly in a near zero energy state and convert that into a verticle altitude gain without stalling .

Now I know the prop pitch cheat has been removed and I am very thankful for that.

So why do I bring this up?

Because it was very troubling to hear this person try to justify that a 109 should be able fly like that. I thought he was a fair and rational person but he had absolutlely no problem extorting this over the top cheat to gain an unfair advantage. What was even more troubling was that there was many more 109 drivers out there that felt exactly the same way he did. I am not trying to single out 109 drivers of that time period but point more at human nature and how people can fool themselves into thinking manipulating the code into an unfair advantage is perfectly fine.

So my point in all this is that there is probably cheats out there right now. That some people have exploited the code and are using these cheats. The worst part is they have justified in their own minds that it is perfectly Ok to use them and if the code allows it it's really not a cheat.

That is the sorry part.



_

LEXX_Luthor
09-07-2008, 05:56 PM
Yough Bear, my "weak community" comment applies to the past, as far back as RayBanJockeyhttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/RBJ.gif and the Trim Wars, when I was still a Newbie, as that's as far back as I go. See my SiG. Its possible the community will become stronger now, thanks to AAA which is now the "big 1" for Oleg's paying customers. This thread may be a good clinical study.

Footnote: The private server community has always been a strong community, for reasons you and I tried to discuss many times.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

IceFire::
I was flying with people I knew and I was on TS with them...and they knew me well enough that they knew I wasn't cheating. :doublethumbsup.rbj:

stalkervision
09-07-2008, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:

Only a weak community has to depend on endless snotty insults and accusations that we saw at this forum for many years, and have to be somewhat supported by or "given a pass" by the serial moderators (Oleg was forced out as well). Now, with more online players going Mod and not cheating, and not willing as paying customers to tolerate bullying accusations, this can become a strong community as well.


Not quite sure how to take your post there Lexx... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think this community has always been pretty darned good.. and pretty strong. Even at the height of the whole mod fracas.. it was only the passion for this sim that incited such vitriolic fervor.. and the fact that that has not only calmed down.. but that fact that the "serial moderators" over here were the first of the big 3 meaning UBI, SHQ & M4T to relax the policy on mods.. inspite of sometimes very vocal opposition, says IMO a lot about this "weak community" and it's "serial moderators". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we're a pretty strong community. We ironed out all this nonesense ourselves eventially. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-08-2008, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I have not seen any hacking that I could tell.. even after the release of the unofficial mods that threatened to divide the community. Which is IMO a good thing.

Been here since the beginning and I agree with BC.

S!