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Avont29
07-24-2007, 03:22 AM
i read some old posts about CEM and actual manual prop pitch on the 109/190

i also read that other topic recently on the subject

i dont know exactly what "porked" means, but the manual prop pitch on the 190/109 doesn't work anymore?

i just read that the 190/109 have REAL prop pitch, and not the CSP like most of the other planes in the game have, i wanted to experiment with prop pitch on the 190 and 109

well, first i have to find a guide ont he cockpit reference , cause i cna't read german


but i think i found it

Avont29
07-24-2007, 03:22 AM
i read some old posts about CEM and actual manual prop pitch on the 109/190

i also read that other topic recently on the subject

i dont know exactly what "porked" means, but the manual prop pitch on the 190/109 doesn't work anymore?

i just read that the 190/109 have REAL prop pitch, and not the CSP like most of the other planes in the game have, i wanted to experiment with prop pitch on the 190 and 109

well, first i have to find a guide ont he cockpit reference , cause i cna't read german


but i think i found it

BBB_Hyperion
07-24-2007, 04:07 AM
For the 190 A Series only CSP mode is modeled and usage like 109 is not possible which irl was.

The 190 has a special mechanic computer optimizing oxygen fuel mixture rpm supercharger etc in 1 system called the Kommandogerät. This is modeled under the term Auto Pitch while manual pitch switches to CSP operated mode.

The 109 has a variable pitch prop where you can change the blade angle , not like csp which tries to maintain a given rpm. The fw190d9 ,ta152 can use variable pitch in manual mode too.

In earlier fm model versions it was possible to get significant different results about when using proper manual pitch. This for some reason is now not possible anymore. The reason for this is unclear as both planes the 190 and the 109 had blade angle control buttons (on the stick for 190 iirc).
That this was used in combat is verified by Oleg and it was later copied into Russian aircrafts as well. There should be a difference cause the automatic systems at this time were not that responsive as manual input it just reduced pilots workload.

Short it isn't worth to invest that much time in controlling pitch manual , cause there is not much difference in the results. But you can try yourself.

Rammjaeger
07-24-2007, 05:48 AM
You are free to change prop pitch in both Fw-190 and Bf-109, it's just that you have to be much more careful with the latter (wrecking the engine is very easy) - set it to 30% or 40% after shutting automatic prop pitch off.

JG14_Josf
07-24-2007, 08:47 AM
Avont29,

Two important things must be known in order to get a handle on the 109/190 prop situation in history (and the game).

1. Constant Speed Prop controls rpm
2. Variable Prop is direct control of Prop Blade Angle


Both the 109 and 190 are Constant Speed Prop control systems when using Automatic Mode; however – and this may cause a lot of confusion – the 109 and 190 both have the Constant Speed Prop control combined with the throttle control on one lever (the throttle lever).

If you look in the game at the throttle lever for the 109/190 you will see one lever. If you look in an allied plane you will see two levers.

In the allied planes the second lever is the Constant Speed Prop lever.

In the 109 and 190 the Constant Speed Prop lever is not seen because the Constant Speed Prop lever is attached to the throttle lever internally.

In the Allied planes the pilot can move the throttle forward and leave the Constant Speed Prop lever back.

In the Allied planes the pilot can move the Constant Speed Prop lever forward and leave the Prop lever back.

In the German Planes the pilot cannot move the throttle and prop levers separately because the throttle and prop levers are connected internally.

All the above concerns a Constant Speed Prop system where the RPM is controlled by the system.

None of the above concerns a Variable speed prop where the pilot has direct control of the prop blade angle.

The Prop lever in all the cases concerning Constant Speed Prop Systems - the pilot selects the desired RPM with the prop lever (separate control in allied planes and linked to the throttle in German planes). Moving the prop lever forward adds more RPM. Moving the prop lever backwards lowers RPM settings. The prop will not turn without power so moving the prop lever forward (on the runway) without moving the throttle forward (or with the engine off) doesn't change anything except the tension on the governor spring.

The governor is a fly weight device used to sense the speed of rotation of the engine (prop). The engine and prop are linked by gears so when one turns the other turns. The fly weight governor senses Prop speed by sensing engine speed. The fly weight governor may be geared to the crank shaft, the cam shaft, or any shaft turning when the engine and prop turn.

More tension on the fly weight governor spring will load up the fly weights and require more RPM to make the fly weights fly outward due to centrifugal force (more RPM = more centrifugal force = more spring tension ).

Less tension allows the fly weights to fly outward due to turning at slower speeds.

The fly weight governor is the control or signal that causes the Prop Blade Angle to change.

The Prop Blade Angle won't change unless the fly weight governor is turning at a speed sufficient to overcome the spring tension with centrifugal force on the FLY WEIGHTS.

When the RPM exceeds the RPM setting set by the pilot (like a float in a toilet kind of thing) the Governor (float) cuts off the ability to increase RPM (fill the toilet tank) by increasing Prop Blade Angle (not simply shutting off the water flow). The increased Prop Blade Angle causes more lift force generated by the higher blade pitch of the prop and therefore more LOAD on the engine and under more LOAD (trying to generate more lift force with the prop blades at a higher angle of attack) the engine RPM lowers. When the engine lowers too much below the set RPM (the toilet is flushed) the governor fly weights don't have enough centrifugal force to SLING the fly weights outward against the spring tension and the signal (control) to the Prop is to decrease PROP ANGLE and reduce the LOAD on the engine (less lift force produced by the Prop Disc) and the engine is ALLOWED to increase RPM.

Unlike the toilet where the float merely adds water to a level set by the plumber the Constant Speed Prop Governor adds and subtracts PROP BLADE ANGLE to maintain the RPM setting set by the pilot as the pilot moves the prop control lever (separate in allied planes and connected to the throttle in the 109/190) which adjusts the level of RPM to a desired amount (as if having control of the water level in the float = not just add water and cut off water flow = move prop angle higher when RPM is too low and move prop angle lower when RPM is too high).

Allied planes have two separate controls = throttle and prop lever.

German planes have one control = combined throttle and prop lever.

You may notice how the Allied planes have the throttle and prop levers close together for ease of moving both levers at the same time. There are reasons for moving both levers at the same time and those reasons are probably the reasons why the Germans elected to link the throttle and the Constant Speed Prop RPM control levers together.

Moving on to Manual Control in the German Planes:
The true answer to how the German planes controlled Prop Pitch Adjustment Manually (no longer using Automatic Constant Speed Prop with the Prop Lever linked to the Throttle Lever) is ˜up in the air'.

It is almost certain (and I can try again to find the links confirming) that the 109 uses a Manual System of DIRECT CONTROL OF THE PROP BLADE ANGLE.

If the 109 does have a manual system where the pilot has direct control of the prop blade angle, then, the pilot no longer has Constant Speed RPM control when the pilot selects Manual control.

Therefore there must be a switch to change from manual to Automatic control.

The Pilot selects Automatic and the plane has one lever that controls the throttle and the RPM governor (prop lever).

The Pilot selects Manual and the plane has direct control of the prop blade angle (variable pitch).

The 109, as far as I could find, used an electric motor geared to the prop blade angle adjusting gears. The electric motor turned in both directions depending upon the flow of current through the electric motor (as far as I could tell).

So, in either case, Manual or Automatic, the electric motor moved the physical position of the Prop Blade Angle with the 109 series aircraft.

In Manual mode the pilot has direct control of the electric motor that physically moves the prop blade angle.

In Automatic mode the pilot controls the prop blade angle by moving the throttle lever which in turn, moves the prop lever, which in turn, loads up the fly weight spring or unloads the fly weight spring with tension.

In the 109 the pilot either selects Automatic or Manual.

The manual setting requires from the pilot a constant concern for engine RPM because the engine RPM is no longer constantly held to a constant RPM by the governor used in the Constant Speed Prop (CSP) System (Automatic).

The manual setting on the 109 requires the pilot to be the governor constantly. The pilot must reset the prop blade angle manually for every change in flight condition (just like the governor does during Automatic operation).

Once the pilot switches to Manual mode the pilot is then required to push the button (or switch) to manually increase prop blade angle by sending electric current to the prop blade angle electric motor which turns the physical prop blade angle higher or lower to load up the engine with more lift force production or less lift force production.

The Manual operation of the physical prop blade angle must be changed for every change in flight condition including changes in air speed, changes in attitude, changes in throttle settings, and changes in atmospheric conditions (tail winds, altitude density, etc.).

Manual mode is an emergency SYSTEM in both German Planes.

Moving on to the 190 (anyone having specific information on the 109 can please link sources):

Fw190 Manual (http://www.tailwheel.nl/em/fockewulffw190/index.html)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">b. Airscrew
Three bladed adjustable airscrew with constant speed unit. In case of the failure of the automatic adjustment controls, or of the engine, the blades can be electrically positioned by a thumb actuated manual switch.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">8.
The aircraft is fitted with a three bladed, constant speed airscrew of 3300 mm (10'10") diameter. Inflight blade pitch adjustment is normally automatic (dependent on RPM), being controlled hydraulically from the control unit. The pitch can also be adjusted manually, eg. When the automatic pitch control fails, and on the ground.

To change from hydraulic (automatic) to electric (manual) pitch adjustment, move the pitch control switch on the left Instrument console to the ˜Manual' position. The propeller pitch can then be adjusted by depression of the appropriate side of the thumb switch on the throttle lever; this switch has two settings: ˜RPM increase' and ˜RPM decrease'. When released, the switch returns to the neutral ˜Off' position.

The pitch control unit, with attached switchover motor and RPM governor, is built onto the forward left side of the engine. Propeller pitch is monitored mechanically by an indicator on the auxiliary instrument panel right side.

Limit switches prevent the movement of the propeller blades past their allowable pitch limits.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note:
˜RPM increase' and ˜RPM decrease' can mean two things.

1.
"The pitch can also be adjusted manually...", where, the prop blade angle is physically moved to a higher or lower angle of attack by sending electric current to the electric motor that is geared to the prop pitch gearing.

2.
Manual control works like an Allied plane prop pitch lever where the pilot adjusts the tension on the prop governor spring and in doing so the pilot adjusts for ˜RPM increase' (less tension on the RPM governor spring) or ˜RPM decrease' (more tension on the RPM governor spring).

I've asked Crumpp (Kettenhunde) to confirm the question above concerning the 190 manual control and he ˜authoritatively' states that the manual control is option 1.

I'm not so sure.

Actual evidence would be nice in place of an ˜authoritative opinion'.

Crumpp (Kettenhunde) also claimed (in an authoritative manner) that the 109 and 190 aircraft were capable of prop feather positions selected by the pilot.

I'd like to see evidence of that too.

Feather is a setting whereby the prop blade angle is physically set to maximum high pitch or course pitch and the prop blade is thereby set to minimum drag (completely perpendicular to the air flow and not generating any rotational force).

Feather is a setting that must be available to twin engine aircraft in case one engine fails. If feather is not available on a twin engine aircraft, then, the prop on the failed engine will windmill and cause excessive drag which will yaw the aircraft severely.

Feather goes well past any usable setting for producing engine thrust (of course) because it is too course.

More accurate information is better than more baseless opinion – in my opinion. I may be alone in that regard.

foxyboy1964
07-24-2007, 08:58 AM
Good post Josf, thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Avont29
07-24-2007, 09:00 AM
well that was a lot of reading

thanks

JG14_Josf
07-24-2007, 09:07 AM
Rgr to the last two replies,

When I first loaded this game up (I had already done much research on prop controls) I noticed right away that the game models the 109 very well. My first experience with this game was sitting on the runway watching the PROP ANGLE gauge (looks like a clock) move as I adjusted blade angle with the Manual Prop Control.

I thought then, and still think now, this software designer knows his stuff and is extremely interested in accuracy.

It is, after all, an arrangement of ones and zeros.

foxyboy1964
07-24-2007, 09:16 AM
I always use the 190 in game, on manual. I just use the switch to keep the RPM at about 2500 to 2800 (in combat). Does that sound OK?

Avont29
07-24-2007, 09:25 AM
yea i'll play around with it, but its gonna be hard to understand the gauges and waht not

Avont29
07-24-2007, 09:25 AM
what is the button to switch from auto to manual?

foxyboy1964
07-24-2007, 09:28 AM
You've got to bind one in the Control's menu. Also, you have to select Complex Engine Management in the Difficulty Settings.

In fact you'll have to bind 3 keys in total.
1)Prop pitch Auto/Manual
2)increase PP
3)Decrease PP

BBB_Hyperion
07-24-2007, 09:28 AM
Josf you can check evidence for manual pitch on Abb.3: Schema der hydr.-elektr. Verstell-Luftschraubenanlage für BMW 801.

Crumpp must have have this document as well.

Avont29
07-24-2007, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
You've got to bind one in the Control's menu. Also, you have to select Complex Engine Management in the Difficulty Settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

woah 3 minute reply, haha

ok thanks, imma go play around with this now, probally gonna end up cooking the engine anyway, i can't understand the gauges, its in german

foxyboy1964
07-24-2007, 09:39 AM
You dont really need to read the gauges. Just listen for the engine sound.

It is very hard to cook the engine in the A series Focke Wulfs, but the 109 is another matter. When you hear the engine start to scream you will know that you have to decrease PP. Although by then it is probably too late http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Avont29
07-24-2007, 09:41 AM
^^^ haha yea, switched over to manual and cooked the engine within 3 seconds, so the 2nd time i tried it, i quickly lowered it to 30% prop pitch and worked my way up,


where is the rpm meter on the bf-109?

foxyboy1964
07-24-2007, 09:45 AM
It's on the right hand side of the panel. It has U/min written on it.

Avont29
07-24-2007, 09:46 AM
nvm i found it, im looking at the cockpit guide

im flying the fw-190d-5, this is going to be interesting in a dogfight server

Avont29
07-24-2007, 09:52 AM
woah..i can definately say the plane goe smuch faster on manual prop pitch, i wanna see this in a dogfight!

foxyboy1964
07-24-2007, 10:40 AM
This is something that I found helpfull...

Set up a Quick mission with you in a FW against eight C47 (they cant shoot back).

Set Friendly skill level to Veteran or Ace.

Now, stay in the Cockpit view but when the flight begins switch on Auto pilot.

When the Auto pilot "spots" the C47 he will increase power and speed etc to attack. While this is happening you should keep your eye on the RPM and the throttle. You will notice that Auto pilot keeps the RPM at about 2500 (in a FW190). This is the Power Band for that engine. In combat you should always try to stay in the Power Band because it gives you the quickest response from the engine.

You can do the same for any aircraft. As you adjust Throttle you should adjust PP control so that you keep the RPM within the power band.

joeap
07-24-2007, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Rgr to the last two replies,

When I first loaded this game up (I had already done much research on prop controls) I noticed right away that the game models the 109 very well. My first experience with this game was sitting on the runway watching the PROP ANGLE gauge (looks like a clock) move as I adjusted blade angle with the Manual Prop Control.

I thought then, and still think now, this software designer knows his stuff and is extremely interested in accuracy.

It is, after all, an arrangement of ones and zeros. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed good reply Josf, something to save and/or print out for those who don't know about prop pitch vs. csp etc. Thanks.