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MrSteven37
05-31-2010, 10:47 PM
Just saw an episode of Dogfights on the history channel where a P-51 pilot was in a head on pass with 2 Me-262s about 500 feet above and jettisoned his drop tanks hoping to hit the 262's with them. He missed, but it got me wondering, would this actually work in the sim?

AndyJWest
05-31-2010, 10:57 PM
the history channel
Yeah, right... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for whether this would work in the sim, I don't know, and don't care. I'm sure if you were in a Sopwith Camel, and a F-16 made a close pass, you could down it with a halfbrick if you threw it at the right time, but how many attempts would it need?

The 'History Channel' is bunk...

M_Gunz
05-31-2010, 11:03 PM
Who was above? How were they arranged? How full were the drop tanks?

You can get lunched by debris from a broken/blown-up plane, you can take planes out by dropping bombs on them
or at least we've seen screenshots of cassettes destroying bombers in flight so why not drop tanks?

The whole collision thing though is a bit iffy. Sometimes you get the damage, sometimes you don't.

na85
05-31-2010, 11:13 PM
Pretty sure that drop tanks do indeed have a collision model.

I can't say I've tested this though, and am too lazy to try :P

saipan1972
05-31-2010, 11:35 PM
prob does work as i have been taken out by bombs with 10 sec delayed dropped as the enemy runs on the deck.

Waldo.Pepper
05-31-2010, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by na85:
Pretty sure that drop tanks do indeed have a collision model.

I can't say I've tested this though, and am too lazy to try :P

I tested it years ago and it does nothing. To my great disappointment.

The History Channel gets a lot of grief (deservedly so). But if I were sitting in Tim's talking with a Veteran who told me this story I sure would believe that he had tried it. Just because he told it to the History Channel then they told me - does not mean that it is bunk, or worthy of derision.

TinyTim
06-01-2010, 06:32 AM
Drop tanks do have a collision model, but cause no damage. They do "hit" the plane, leaving a "splash" effect at a fixed point in the space (not traveling with the plane):

http://www.shrani.si/f/5/mo/3geLgj9u/01.jpg

http://www.shrani.si/f/1R/cp/3ORVj9Xe/02.jpg

http://www.shrani.si/f/19/jI/gvSs15s/03.jpg

You can bomb other aircraft though - the bomb "glues" to the aircraft and explodes after the delay. I takes some practice to hit tho.

p-11.cAce
06-01-2010, 06:49 AM
Best Skin Evar http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Makes me wanna bust out some para-troopers tonight.

TinyTim
06-01-2010, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Best Skin Evar http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif


Yeah, all the ramming (TB-3 is hard to miss or to avoid to be frank) starting to get on my nerves so I started using it online, for obvious reasons. Does it help? No, but at least rammers are humiliated. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rfxcasey
06-01-2010, 07:45 AM
Well, they make a big splash when they hit the water so I would say yeah you can down a plane with them though not practical. Why not just experiment dive bombing a truck using it as the bomb. I'm gonna try that just for fun when I get home.

TheCrux
06-01-2010, 09:06 AM
Just an observation:

I was experimenting carrier take-offs in an F4U Corsair with various loadouts. As one cannot select a 'Tiny Tim' just by itself because it requires a "package" of other bombs or a drop tank. I selected a drop tank/tiny tim combo, and after spawning ( and taxiing to the extreme rear of the deck ) I released the drop tank right on the deck with no catastrophic effects...though the graphics do show the fuel splashing.

Post script. One cannot take-off from a stationary carrier in a Corsair with a Tiny Tim.

No how, no way.

LEBillfish
06-01-2010, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by AndyJWest:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the history channel
Yeah, right... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The 'History Channel' is bunk... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

easy..........Doesn't mean that it wasn't tried, in fact it would not surprise me at all.

As to the sim I believe "drop tanks" are one of those sorts of objects that you cannot collide with unlike say bombs. Shell casings are another. Parts of aircraft however of a certain size still retain "hit-ability"....

DOH!...having flown this sim since 2003 I didn't even know drop tanks made a splash...Kewl!

K2

JG53Frankyboy
06-01-2010, 10:29 AM
there was a game version, just after the P-40E/M release were their droptanks , and olny their, could be used a bombs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
but that was patched..................

droptanks cant harm anything in game 4.09.

jarink
06-01-2010, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by AndyJWest:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the history channel
Yeah, right... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for whether this would work in the sim, I don't know, and don't care. I'm sure if you were in a Sopwith Camel, and a F-16 made a close pass, you could down it with a halfbrick if you threw it at the right time, but how many attempts would it need?

The 'History Channel' is bunk... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The History Channel does have it's moments, but I find a story like this to be completely believable. I've heard stories about guys throwing out buckets of frozen urine and feces over targets in Germany, trying to hit fighters with (unopened) packets of "Window" chaff or expended "brass", even stragglers running out their long HF antennas in an attempt to foul the prop of any fighters that might try to get to close.

In war, you use what's at hand.

In real life, getting hit by even an empty drop tank could ruin your whole day. The 108-gallon paper tanks probably wouldn't do much more than a bird strike, but even today birds bring down plenty of planes. The steel tanks, OTOH, could probably rip parts off of wings or the tail, not to mention what it could do to a prop (or compressor blades in a jet).

TinyTim
06-01-2010, 03:20 PM
One should consider what the target audience of history channel is, and that TV stations, like any other company, makes a living and profit out of the size of it. Stating for example that Soviets shot down about twice the number of LW planes the US and GB did combined during the war, despite being a historical fact, wouldn't really help their cause. Same here, they must emphasize heroism of US pilots, since quite simply, their target audience is mostly US, plus a company that's running the channel is a US one. That's exactly why you can't expect much objectivity - and you also can't really blame them, media houses are just another branch of business, nothing more, so rest assured they will twist the words, skew the truth etc. to make money out of it.

That said - before I'm crucified for being "anti american" - It's not any different in any other country (major combatant of WW2 at least), History Channel just happens to be produced by US company for mostly US audience. As a matter of fact, it can and does get a lot worse at some other places.

If they'd start to make some serious business, say in China I wouldn't be surprised how fast they'd start to glorify Chinese aces of Korean war and their ways to kill "imperialist pigs" with drop tanks.

horseback
06-01-2010, 03:34 PM
First, as to the believability of the attempt--bear in mind tht we're talking about a guy in his early twenties--I suspect that he was far from the first to try it and even farther from being the last. There's a cetain amount of the "What the hell--it's worth a shot" mentality in young men everywhere.

Second, if the two aircraft had a combined closing speed over 400kph/250mph, I'd expect any type of droptank used in WWII to do tremendous damage if it hit one of the aircraft, particularly if it were partially full.

If his tanks had hit one of those 262s, there would have been a hell of a crash, his name would be legendary in the annals of hot-rocks fighter pilots, aviation artists would visit the incident agan & again AND (most important) he'd never have to pay for his own drinks again.

cheers

horseback

Wildnoob
06-01-2010, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
There's a cetain amount of the "What the hell--it's worth a shot" mentality in young men everywhere.

As a 20 year old IL2 pilot I've already obtained sucess in the following attempts:

I was taxing and someone was strafing the airfield. I work with the rudder and trottle to line my guns on him and...

In another I was being pursuit on the deck with a Stuka holding a big bomb with delay. Guess I don't need to say what I did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Given the dimensions of WWII, may be logic these two experiences happened several times during the war.

Aviar
06-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by MrSteven37:
Just saw an episode of Dogfights on the history channel where a P-51 pilot was in a head on pass with 2 Me-262s about 500 feet above and jettisoned his drop tanks hoping to hit the 262's with them. He missed, but it got me wondering, would this actually work in the sim?

Drop tanks in IL-2 cannot damage anything they happen to collide with. Also, they cannot be damaged themselves. In other words, try shooting them at point blank range and nothing will happen.

Hopefully, they will be more realistically modelled in SoW.

Aviar

WTE_Galway
06-01-2010, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Aviar:


Drop tanks in IL-2 cannot damage anything they happen to collide with. Also, they cannot be damaged themselves. In other words, try shooting them at point blank range and nothing will happen.

Hopefully, they will be more realistically modelled in SoW.

Aviar


I suspected that.

Sooo ... what about when they are still attached to an aircraft ? Are they still gun/canon proof ?

ElAurens
06-01-2010, 06:21 PM
Ages ago in the original IL2 I was attacked head on by a 109 G6AS. I pulled up and released my load of AJ Cassettes and fried him.

One of my most memorable kills.

BoB_GEN_Tazman
06-01-2010, 06:48 PM
I was flying a B-25 and being chased by a 109. I had the parafrag bombs loaded, and in one of those "it's worth a shot" moments I went into a shallow dive and released my bombs....the 109 hit one, and I got credit for the kill........nice feeling!

AndyJWest
06-01-2010, 07:04 PM
Yup, bombs seem to work as A to A weapons, and parafrags are possibly the best choice here. As I've found to my cost, the crew bailing out of a plane you've just perforated are also 'solid' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It probably comes down to the complexity in trying to deal with every 'droppable' object - the programmers didn't consider droptanks as a weapon, so only modelled the 'splash'. I think parachutists are 'solid' to discourage shooting at them, as you risk a collision - even hitting the 'chute can down a plane.

If droptanks were 'solid' they'd need to react differently according to content, which would make things even more complex.

Frankthetank36
06-01-2010, 08:25 PM
The history channel also said something about a German 8x8 box formation used against bombers, seems pretty unbelievable that so many planes could do that.

TinyTim
06-01-2010, 09:10 PM
The ultimate bomber destroyer in this case in my opinion is Yak-9B. You load it up with 192 PTAB antitank bomblets and simply saw through anything in the air! Pity you only have one shot, plus the loaded plane is a real b!tch to fly, let alone to take off. The PTABs are loaded behind the pilot and really do mess the COG up. But you can kill anything, or multiple anythings with a bit of luck and skill.

gizmo60
06-02-2010, 03:23 AM
Can you imagine the number of threads if droptanks were solid ............


WTF...IL-2 is BUGGED. My wingman keeps killing me with his droptank. This BUG ruins the whole game.
This BUG needs fixing NOW
WTF rant WTF rant WTF rant...........



Be thankful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers

WTE_Galway
06-02-2010, 03:36 AM
You would also need a different collision model for the paper ones used late war.

The paper drop tanks were easier to handle, cheaper to make and more importantly did not supply the German war effort with a ready source of scrap medal every raid http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/droptank02.jpg

Frankthetank36
06-02-2010, 12:54 PM
This might sound like a dumb question, but how in the world would a drop tank made out of paper not soak through, let alone hold its shape at 300+mph?

JtD
06-02-2010, 01:19 PM
They don't sell Tetrapaks in your local store? Add a bit of internal pressure and make it streamlined, you won't even need a lot of structural bolstering.

Art-J
06-02-2010, 01:42 PM
Keep in mind these were not made of "pure" paper only. It was impregnated with a resin, resulting in a material one could call a "grandfather of composites". I don't think it was able to hold fuel without leaks for prolonged period of time, but with just a few hours between filling and jettisoning, they were good enough for the job.

Cheers - Art

Aviar
06-02-2010, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aviar:


Drop tanks in IL-2 cannot damage anything they happen to collide with. Also, they cannot be damaged themselves. In other words, try shooting them at point blank range and nothing will happen.

Hopefully, they will be more realistically modelled in SoW.

Aviar


I suspected that.

Sooo ... what about when they are still attached to an aircraft ? Are they still gun/canon proof ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that's what I meant (the drop tanks cannot be damaged while still attached to the plane).

I never tried shooting at them while they were actually dropping. Be my guest and try it if you like. I don't think you will see any difference...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aviar

rfxcasey
06-03-2010, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Aviar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aviar:


Drop tanks in IL-2 cannot damage anything they happen to collide with. Also, they cannot be damaged themselves. In other words, try shooting them at point blank range and nothing will happen.

Hopefully, they will be more realistically modelled in SoW.

Aviar


I suspected that.

Sooo ... what about when they are still attached to an aircraft ? Are they still gun/canon proof ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that's what I meant (the drop tanks cannot be damaged while still attached to the plane).

I never tried shooting at them while they were actually dropping. Be my guest and try it if you like. I don't think you will see any difference...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aviar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh this is just BUNK then. What is you sneak attack boom and zoomed some poor sod with his tanks still on. Hitting one of those with a tracer could really set off some fireworks.