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georgeo76
05-09-2005, 06:04 AM
I was reading about the celebrations in Moscow yesterday when an article peaked my interest.

The peace was listing the visiting dignitarys and among them was Gerhard Schroeder. This struck me as and odd, uncomfortable place for the leader of Germany to be. So I'm wondering, how do Germans feel about VE day?

_Neveraine_
05-09-2005, 06:34 AM
My mother is very bitter the way VE day is broadcast (as opposed to the actual event) infact comments on the war in general make her pretty edgey she was on the receiving end of a lot of racial motivated comments etc. growing up. Its nice to see Gerhard Schroeder extending the arm of peace once again.

Bremspropeller
05-09-2005, 07:22 AM
Germans are glad that "we" are allowed to participate on the ceremonies for the first time.

May 8th is rather regarded as "liberation day" than "the day we lost".
"The war" and holocaust are generally considered as the most terrible things in german history. Many people are ashamed about this chapter in our history.
People know that it was Nazi-Germany that brought the war to europe, and therefore it was only good that the Nazis finally lost (though it took quite a time and many lives to make the Allies finally achive their goal: liberating Europe and Germany from the terror of the Nazi-regieme).

All in all, we Germans are glad that the ceremonies are held to think of ALL victims of this time - no matter where they came from and which race they belonged to.
So am I.

We all hope that something like WW2, which took the lives of 60 million people (more than the population of Great-Britain or France with 57-58 each), is never going to happen again - ever.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-09-2005, 07:32 AM
Well-said Brem.

F19_Ob
05-09-2005, 08:04 AM
Hello...

I'm not german but I have some insights in war traumas in my own and my wifes family, and I suspect many older in the german population will have mixed emotions.

My mother-in-law is german and although she is 75 she still feels bad when the war is mentioned.
She carries collective guilt and the propaganda after the war made it worse. Films and other media kindof made anyone german inhumane.
My wife also had to suffer because of her origins as a kid and she cant bare to see war related movies with the typical nazis in black and with standard evil appearance (aswell as music, she's a musician).
I choose to miss those movies although swedish TV is mostly cr*p.

Over the years I have, little at the time, educated her about facts and also something about evil deeds by the winners of the war and forward info about acts of humanity on all sides (even german) during those dark times...and that seems to help some.

These celebrations should not be a onesided , but an worldwide education where the bad guys is not the German population as a whole.
Education is still very rudimentary in this field I think.
Most of the people I know have really no clue about anything that happened before 1970 , if even that.

I'm anyway very pleased that so many on these boards have an interest for history...it's atleast a startingpoint for greater insight.
Although that business was so long ago its effects haven't gone yet.



A few thoughts.

bolillo_loco
05-09-2005, 11:58 AM
imagine that every year the world talked about the day your wife walked out on you, then again for some of you this might be cause for celibration, but my ex wife looked like monica bellucci http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

georgeo76
05-09-2005, 01:11 PM
I can understand the frustration of inheriting a terrible past. I live in the southern US where the stigma of slavery and segregation is very much a part of everyday life.

Sometimes I feel frustrated. I feel burdond by things my grandparent's generation did. And like most Americans, most of my family was still in Europe during slavery (the only part of my family history that pre-dates the civil war is some Cherokee on my mother's side)

At other times I feel it's important to own your past, even when it's not really 'yours'. I'm proud of many things accomplished by my country. So it stands to reason that a bit of shame for the missteps is part of the deal.

Maybe it's a good thing to own the past as a whole. But I still don't like having my face rubbed in it.

F4UDash4
05-09-2005, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
I live in the southern US where the stigma of slavery and segregation is very much a part of everyday life.

I've lived in the South all of my 42 years, and I have no idea what you're talking about.

ploughman
05-09-2005, 01:46 PM
I lived in the south for 1 1/2 years and I know exactly what he's talking about.

nickdanger3
05-09-2005, 02:10 PM
And I live in the United States, never in the South and know exactly what he's talking about.

Living in Hawaii like I do it's hard to escape facing up to the misdeeds of your own country.

SlickStick
05-09-2005, 03:24 PM
Quite interesting thread. I seldom think about the actual liberation of the German people from Nazi rule that also coincides with the end of WWII.

As for the Southern USA, I lived in Biloxi, MS for about a year and spent another 4 months in San Antonio, TX. Being from NJ, I saw and felt the difference in racial attitudes there as compared to here. And in a lot of areas of the South "silent segregation" is still practiced quite readily.

LStarosta
05-09-2005, 03:41 PM
Yeah, I live in Michigan, and segregation is sadly still practiced here today. People can say all they want, but even if segregation isn't de jure, it still exists. The Lansing area, and many other urban centers in which I've lived in have a very deep divide between white neighborhoods and black neighborhoods. The same goes for schools. Since segregation is illegal, the segregation we're faced with is of the economic and silent de facto type.

I still feel really bad about this when I look upon the deeds done by the American white man against his black brother. Not just slavery, but the attempt to supress civil rights struggles as recent as the 1960's civil rights revolution. And the sad fact is that generations still have much to learn from lessons taught in the past.

I think that for Americans, this must be a shameful stain in our history, much like WWII is for Germans.

georgeo76
05-09-2005, 06:03 PM
Check this out!!! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4493769.stm)

fordfan25
05-09-2005, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
Yeah, I live in Michigan, and segregation is sadly still practiced here today. People can say all they want, but even if segregation isn't de jure, it still exists. The Lansing area, and many other urban centers in which I've lived in have a very deep divide between white neighborhoods and black neighborhoods. The same goes for schools. Since segregation is illegal, the segregation we're faced with is of the economic and silent de facto type.

I still feel really bad about this when I look upon the deeds done by the American white man against his black brother. Not just slavery, but the attempt to supress civil rights struggles as recent as the 1960's civil rights revolution. And the sad fact is that generations still have much to learn from lessons taught in the past.

I think that for Americans, this must be a shameful stain in our history, much like WWII is for Germans.

O well heck man. do i have a deal for you. well swap. ill move up there and you can come down hear and live next to this trailer park full of crack heads. no realy its great youll get alot of target practice shoting at ********ers while thayr runing down the street with your car sterio. and listing to rap music shaking the walls at 3:00 in the morning is awsome. only reson i want to trade is im outa ammo.

LStarosta
05-09-2005, 06:24 PM
While I try to figure out if you were being serious or not, excuse me, for I have to tend to my 230 acres of rolling green pastures and expertly landscaped flower gardens complete with ponds and waterfalls, not to mention the vast and shady woodlands surrounding my estate. Who said life was easy?

georgeo76
05-09-2005, 06:26 PM
Dude, your not supposed to drink the bong watter.



Originally posted by fordfan25:
O well heck man. do i have a deal for you. well swap. ill move up there and you can come down hear and live next to this trailer park full of crack heads. no realy its great youll get alot of target practice shoting at ********ers while thayr runing down the street with your car sterio. and listing to rap music shaking the walls at 3:00 in the morning is awsome. only reson i want to trade is im outa ammo.

Christ! I was just trying to sympathize w/ how some Germans might feel. Forget I ever said anything about the south or racism.

blakduk
05-09-2005, 07:12 PM
For some Germans its a day of shame feeling the collective guilt for the suffering endured by all during WW2 that they are blamed for causing. Others feel they should have won (thankfully a very small minority of neo-facist bullies). A lot of people around the world still blame the Germans en masse for the entire war.
As with all things however they are much more complex than they first seem- nationality is a very abitrary thing. It is particularly true in a continent like Europe where a distance of a few miles can mean you are labelled as being from an entirely different nation. Flag waving patriotism is nonsense, people should be judged on their actions and not on their backgrounds. Its just as dangerous to claim superiority based on your fortunate background as it is to judge others by their unfortunate one. As Abraham Lincoln once said, 'It doesnt matter how tall your grandaddy was, you have to do your own growing'.
The Nazis were vicious thugs who didnt give a rats a*se about even their own countrymen.
Most Germans and Austrians i know see it as a victory over facism.

Bearcat99
05-09-2005, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Germans are glad that "we" are allowed to participate on the ceremonies for the first time.

May 8th is rather regarded as "liberation day" than "the day we lost".
"The war" and holocaust are generally considered as the most terrible things in german history. Many people are ashamed about this chapter in our history.
People know that it was Nazi-Germany that brought the war to europe, and therefore it was only good that the Nazis finally lost (though it took quite a time and many lives to make the Allies finally achive their goal: liberating Europe and Germany from the terror of the Nazi-regieme).

All in all, we Germans are glad that the ceremonies are held to think of ALL victims of this time - no matter where they came from and which race they belonged to.
So am I.

We all hope that something like WW2, which took the lives of 60 million people (more than the population of Great-Britain or France with 57-58 each), is never going to happen again - ever.

Indeed and very well said....... Many don't realize that Germans were among the first victims of the Nazis.... It is easy to sit back 60 years after the fact and say what you would or wouldn't do... but if you knew that by bucking the system you could be carted off.. you and your entire family.. and never seen nor heard from again... it would make you think twice about being willing to pay that price to "do the right thing".

As far as the U.S. and it's issues go..... well... although we have come a long way... we still have a long way to go. Racism is still alive and well in the U.S. and ignorance is just ignorance... it isn't bliss at all. I still have to "prove" myself every day on my job..... that I was hired because I am qualified.. not because of my skin. I have to work harder and better... and I cant afford the same mistakes. If someone else gets stuck on a call for 3 days "Wow.. must be a tough problem.." Me? "Just a dumb ******". Oh yeah.. it is alive and well unfortunately. @ssholes are everywhere just like they were 60 years ago.... even in this thread.

Some of my ancestors were hunting and fishing the rivers of North Carolina Alabama and Georgia long before the white man ever got here. Others were dragged over here in the holds of crowded ships and they must have been strong because they survived and I am here... others left England in the 1700s fleeing religious persecution.. came here and changed thier name from Judah to Judd..... and others who knows.....

It is up to us to teach our kids about what it means to be a human being...... about the evil things that people are capable of. What is going on in the lives of many Germans is a classic case of "The sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons." Just as the tension in the U.S. that exists between the races. This is one of the things that I really can appreciate about this sim.... I have had serious heart to heart conversations with people from all over the world who I otherwise would never have met and I have learned a lot about the way others live as a direct result of this sim. I'm sure that Oleg and 1C werent trying to build some kind of good will machine but that's what they did here.

When people want to remain ignorant and clueless that is what they will do and there is no amount of reason that will get through to them. When people want to see "us" and "them" and as long as there are those who are willing to see things that way the prospect of another Naziesque page in human history is always possible. It is up to us to teach our children. I'm teaching mine well. They will know where they come from.... so they can see where they are going. They will know who they are so they will know what they can be. They will understand that tomorrow is only shaped by the past... it is not written by it. The writing of tomorrow is done in the present. What will you write? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-09-2005, 08:22 PM
Hmmm, where to start. This has always been an interesting topic to me. I'll start with my name;"Fritz Franzen"

On both my passport my name is "Brian Franzen". When I was growing up in Canada it started in Kindergarten. I was affectionately called "Nazi","Jew-killer", "Hitler", and "Fritz". I discussed this with my father and he told me not to blame my classmates since this ammo was given to them by their parents. That was logical enough to me. I accepted the best of the four names and it stuck. Also, by coincidence, it was Opa's name so I feel it's an honour.

I just spent 4 months in Germany. I am by nature a people watcher and analyzer. I also have a knack for getting people to talk.

I spoke often with people about Germany's role in WW2 and how people think today. Basically it seems they are getting tired of having it rubbed in their faces, from their own society. They seem to have a real hatred for the Neo-Nazis, wannabe Neo-Nazis,( sorry Trink_Afri-Cola)and anarchists. Germany today is still deeply effected.

My friend is 30 and prematurely bald. He is often called "Nazi". He is far from being a Nazi but must tolerate the prejudices. The people I met are proud to be German but shamed by the fact that announcing your pride makes you a Nazi. I my opinion Germany's people are not given the freedom in dealing with their past. What also angers people is that they were not there and simply cannot imagine having done or supported the ideals of that time. They seemed to be just as confused as we are in the west.

I also noticed that Germans do not stand up against authority. They seem to be more the following type. They are really dissatisfied with their government, all parties, and feel there is nothing they can do. I also saw companies using their athority to abuse the workers, even when their laws clearly state it is illegal.

One example; 700 employees received notice they would have to work 2 hours per week longer without receiving any additional pay or benefit. When an employee complained the boss threaten to close shop and move to Czech. Case closed. Try that in Canada.

The people seemed to be confused with past and present. They are frustrated with having something constantly rubbed in your face both from inside and outside of Germany. Maybe this is what actually supports the Neo-Nazis. They can't seem to feel forgiven and acceptance as Anti-Nazis so they might as well find an expression for their anger in the form of being a Neo-Nazi. It's been proven if you call a child "stupid" he/she will become a reflection of that. I believe the inspiration for the Neo-Nazis comes from the forced guilt trip from outside Germany and from their government inside. But all this seems to be doing is making the people angrier.

As for my feelings, I also dislike the guilt trip. I know what happened was very wrong but there is nothing I can do about it. I am proud to be German and I guess growing up in Canada gives me the freedom to feel this way, and I also have no problem to stand up against authority when it's needed. Having grown up in a German family and having spent time in Germany I still cannot imagine how the attrocities happened.

This is the first time a German leader has been invited to the ceremonies. I like this. Rather than a sharp jab to the ribs it's more like a punch in the shoulder. I view it as a jesture of forgiveness long overdue. Most of the people from WW2 are gone. It's time to stop punishing grandchildren for their grandparents crimes.


Fritz Franzen

bolillo_loco
05-09-2005, 09:10 PM
its the same in the united states, I shave my head and I am white, so when I go into the black part of town in a black bar where no whites frequent I am frequently asked if I am a nazi. it floors me to this day :O oh I tell them yes I am a nazi and we all have a good laugh and a drink.

BoCfuss
05-09-2005, 09:48 PM
Lived in Georgia, U.S. for a couple of years and can say that it was rather dissapointing at times. The racism/segregation goes both ways. It is strong in pockets, but I do feel that we have come a long way. A very long way. I think we have come to the point that affirmative action, title 9, etc. do more harm then good, but thats just me. I think anti-racial favortism just magnifies the problems we have. As long as there are blacks, whites, christians, jews, democrats, republicans, Americans, Germans, etc. There will be racism, discrimination, hatred, etc. Don't even get me started with males and females. "I have a lot of problems with you people." I do think we have come a long ways, another hundred years and we'll still have a long ways to go yet.

Copperhead310th
05-09-2005, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
Quite interesting thread. I seldom think about the actual liberation of the German people from Nazi rule that also coincides with the end of WWII.

As for the Southern USA, I lived in Biloxi, MS for about a year and spent another 4 months in San Antonio, TX. Being from NJ, I saw and felt the difference in racial attitudes there as compared to here. And in a lot of areas of the South "silent segregation" is still practiced quite readily.

and it's on both side of the fence i'm afraid.
the sad thing is that being in the south your just brought up that way.
it's still very much a black and white thing here. it's nothing like the 60's....but ppl just sort of "know there Place". which sucks.
while there is some leval of tolerance (far beyond 40 yrs ago) there is and will always be some sort of "silent segrigation". If a white person walks into one of the local A.M.E. churches...everyone loooks at you like you don't belong. and this kind of thing still goes on and it goes on both ways. thankfully there are places that are trying to change things.
Like the Rosa Parks Libray & Museum. (which i did the wireing on when i was still an Electrician & volenteerd at for a long time.)
PPL who aren't southern could never understnd.
but if your born here and have been here all your life then you know. and while it may seem racialy devided there are quite a few thing & issues today that unit both blacks and whites.
I could go on and on on the subject but i doubt that anyone could even begin to understand. it's a southern thing & it would take much to long to explain.

fordfan25
05-09-2005, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by BoCfuss:
Lived in Georgia, U.S. for a couple of years and can say that it was rather dissapointing at times. The racism/segregation goes both ways. It is strong in pockets, but I do feel that we have come a long way. A very long way. I think we have come to the point that affirmative action, title 9, etc. do more harm then good, but thats just me. I think anti-racial favortism just magnifies the problems we have. As long as there are blacks, whites, christians, jews, democrats, republicans, Americans, Germans, etc. There will be racism, discrimination, hatred, etc. Don't even get me started with males and females. "I have a lot of problems with you people." I do think we have come a long ways, another hundred years and we'll still have a long ways to go yet.

i agree.

Rab03
05-10-2005, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
The peace was listing the visiting dignitarys and among them was Gerhard Schroeder. This struck me as and odd, uncomfortable place for the leader of Germany to be.

It seems that history becomes relative. Besides Schroeder, there was also Stjepan Mesic, president of Croatia. Mesic even stated few days ago that Croatia fought for the Allies! (Croatia formed extreme fascist state and fought as Germany's ally throughout the war; Ustashi, Croatian fascists, committed horrible crimes on Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, communists and other in former Yugoslavia - only in Jasenovac concentration camp around 600.000 people were murdered).

SabreF-86
05-10-2005, 01:52 AM
Pirschjaeger had pretty much the same experiences I did as a kid. My parents came to Canada in 52, and I spent most of my younger years being called nazi, etc and being pounded on. It didn't stop til I learned to start pounding back.

Most of the people I know in Germany, especially the younger ones are getting heartily sick n tired of having the sins of WWII shoved in their faces. I seem to recollect a hate trial in Germany a couple years ago where one of the accused actually testified to that in court when asked why he did it, and brought in witnesses to that effect. It's like teaching your dog not to **** on the carpet. Rub his nose in it the first few times and he'll get the message. Keep doing it and he'll eventually rip your arm off.

The German people have been suffering from a national self hate ever since the end of the war, and their education system is designed to constantly reinforce that. Hence the rebellion. When the German Naval Officers association (MOV) decided to put up a holocaust memorial at the Uboat memorial in Keil, Otto Kretschmer, the highest ranking Uboat officer left ask the association leaders (all new generation officers) what the heck the Kreigsmarine in general and the Uboat arm in particular had to do with the Holocaust, and the answer was that all Kreigsmarine officers were not much better than war criminals because they served an illegal and tyranical government. What an amazing crock!. Only one KM officer (Uboat capt) was ever tried for war crimes, for machinegunning a lifeboat of survivors, and was hung for it.

I think its a joke to be forever punishing Germans for the horrors of WWII, while not ever making a peep about things like Stalin's purges, the artificial famine he induced in the 30s, the atrocitys of the Japanese in their actions, and how about the 1.4 million disarmed German troops left to starve in US camps after the war. How about all the Turks and their slaughter of Armenians in 1915, or Pol Pot and his killing fields. Rwanda or Serbia, Bosnia, etc. The list of pogroms goes on and on, but the one that everyone goes on about is Germans and WWII.

I shall watch with interest to see what happens in another 10 to 15 years because by then all the possible perpetrators of WWII will be dead. It'll be interesting to see if the Germans will put up with much more of this constant nose rubbing.


Sabre

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 03:04 AM
Good post Sabre. Your point is right on. The Germans are getting frustrated and some are even getting angry. This could benefit the cause of the Neo-Nazis.

The Germans are once again being pushed further into the corner. The Treaty of Versaille is basically the same thing, it pushed too far. What happens when they start to push back? Basically Germans are a peace loving people with a temper. My mother used to say I was a "typical German", hard to make angry but even harder to calm down.

Even though they aren't getting any real power in Germany the more right-winged politicians are gaining more and more all the time. Like you said, 10-15 years later from now will be interesting.

If things don't change someone gonna lose an arm.

Fritz Franzen

ploughman
05-10-2005, 03:14 AM
In my home village a few years ago some German exchange students had to be sent home early after they were the subject of violence and intimidation from other kids. Most adults were shamed by it, one or to weren't.

I do hope that with things like Der Untergang we're beginning to see the start of more mature consideration of the history of that period.

WTE_Ibis
05-10-2005, 03:38 AM
Bearcat and Fritz,good post both,it continually amazes me how pathetically stupid a lot of people can be.I am Australian and we welcome
people from many war torn countries who seek the safety and freedom afforded by our country
and what happens,
they bring their grievances with them.Only recently the fans of two soccer clubs (from opposing sides during the Balkin war) riot and cause mayhem.This happens often where a country allows free expression.
I just wish that when given the opportunity
people would forget their differences and enjoy
that which was denied to them in their own countries.

tjaika1910
05-10-2005, 05:32 AM
Many good mature post here. Great mod we have in Bearcat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

People are people. Ignorant people in groups thinks less than one ignorant man.

No one is without stains. History is full of them. 20th century so far the worst, and hopefully that record wont be broken...

Not to flame you, WTE_Ibis, but also your country has a lot of not-so-hidden racism. Not against the immigrants but against those who lived there originally...

But I feel on a general basis that it is less predudism based on "race" and differense now. Things are getting better. But of course new problems arise all the time.

anarchy52
05-10-2005, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by Rab03:
It seems that history becomes relative. Besides Schroeder, there was also Stjepan Mesic, president of Croatia. Mesic even stated few days ago that Croatia fought for the Allies! (Croatia formed extreme fascist state and fought as Germany's ally throughout the war; Ustashi, Croatian fascists, committed horrible crimes on Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, communists and other in former Yugoslavia - only in Jasenovac concentration camp around 600.000 people were murdered).
You could say the same about France. Wasn't Vichy regime cooperating with Nazis?
You either do not know much about history or you have some kind of personal agenda.
WWII in Yugoslavia was far more complicated then just struggle against axis occupation. There were all kinds of interest groups within Yugoslavia fighting with each other some on the side of the axis, some allies while some saw struggle against their political and ideological enemies far more important then fighting against axis. Explaining the details would go far beyond the scope of this thread and my competence since I'm not a historian.

Initially Ustasa got popular support on the pretext of national liberation and independence but pretty soon it became clear that Ustasi are in fact traitors of Croatian national interests (among other things they gave large parts of Croatian territory including a large part of Croatian Adriatic coast to Italy as a return favor to axis for putting Ustasa in charge of Croatia). Soon, Liberation movement got wide popular support and was led by a Croatian communist - Josip Broz Tito. Armed struggle against axis and the Ustasa puppet regime (which wasn't formed as You say, implying some legitimacy, but installed by axis) in Croatia started in summer of 1941, about 2 months after ocupation.

The point is: far more Croats fought agains axis then with the axis. As for war crimes: It's sad that victims and number of victims were and still are manipulated for daily politics purposes and collective guilt is layed on croats as a nation for the crimes commited by puppet regime. I feel no guilt as a croat for crimes of Ustasa regime majority of Croats were fighting against, quite contrary - I'm proud of anti-fascist struggle of my countrymen.
http://www.hic.hr/books/manipulations/p07.htm

My grandfather was Jasenovac camp survivor.

Hristos
05-10-2005, 06:08 AM
Excellent reply, anarchy52.

Rab's post contains certain elements which could mislead someone unfamiliar with events which happened in former Yugoslavia in last 100 years.

Ustasa regime bears no legitimacy in my mind. It was installed by outer forces, but nobody in their right mind would want to call it legitimate. Much less a fulfilled ambition of Croats for national independancy.

csThor
05-10-2005, 08:47 AM
So I'm wondering, how do Germans feel about VE day?

Honestly? I don't feel any different than the day before or after. I know about the historical relevance of said date, but I fail to understand the ballyhoo it received in Germany - or better the background tones of said ballyhoo. I was born 35 years after the end of the war and I fail to see a reason why I should walk around in a dust-grey monk's frock and say "Forgive me, forgive me, forgive me ..." to everyone I meet. Rememberance is a good thing, but currently the 12 years of Hitler's rule are being used as a "blackjack" argument to forestall any kind of unwanted discussion.

I am not agreeing to see this date as liberation for all germans. That's twisting history IMO, because there were some 37% votes for the NSDAP in 1933 and quite a lot of folks happily joined that merry band of idiots not only to gain some advantages in business life, but because they believed in that nonsense. Calling it "liberation" is off as it would imply the political system was imposed on Germany by a foreign nation - which it wasn't. Liberated were the poor souls in the concentration camps, the slave workers, the POWs and political prisoners, but Germany as a state was defeated. When politicians call it a liberation today it's merely toothless political rhetoric and as useless as a goiter.

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 09:51 AM
Germany liberated? No, not at all. When the enemy is in your front yard and you are still shooting until your last bullet, you are not looking for liberation. If the people had started standing up against the Nazi party before their defeat, then we might call it liberation. Not enough were doing this though.

Completely defeated? Yes, very much so, more than was necessary IMO, but I don't want to open that can of worms.

Thor, I don't think the 37% vote for the NSDAP in '33 makes such a good argument considering a lot happened between '33 and '45. I would say that by '45 the NSDAP couldn't get a 5% vote.

I agree with pretty much everything you said though; Germany was not liberated, rather defeated. But the "Germany was liberated" line makes a good cover-up for "excessive defeat" ;the can of worms.

Fritz Franzen

Bremspropeller
05-10-2005, 10:42 AM
The question was how Germans feel about it now and not how they felt about it back then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F19_Olli72
05-10-2005, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by SabreF-86:
Only one KM officer (Uboat capt) was ever tried for war crimes, for machinegunning a lifeboat of survivors, and was hung for it.

Sry for the slight OT but i feel i have to correct you since we're discussing history. Admiral D¶nitz was tried and convicted for war crimes at Nuremberg in 1946 . It is a twist of irony though that one of the things he was convicted of was the result of warcrimes from the allies: after the Laconia incident (http://wernerhartenstein.tripod.com/U156Laconia.htm) Admiral D¶nitz ordered Uboats not to pick up or aid survivers.

This was one thing that was added to the war crime charges, even though the allied submarines in the Pacific operated with the same policy (not picking up or aiding survivors).

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
The question was how Germans feel about it now and not how they felt about it back then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


"Completely defeated? Yes, very much so, more than was necessary IMO, but I don't want to open that can of worms."

This IS how the Germans feel. During my stay in Germany I noticed a lot of resentment to the bombings.

I had visited a few museums and one that comes to mind was in Hannover. There were many enlarged photos of Hannover after the aerial bombardings. One thing that really stuck in my mind was the fact that residential areas had been bombed extremely heavily. You could see there was nothing industrial for kilometers. Until you see these photos you can't understand. But they are very clear.

So I looked a little deeper and found that this was common in many cities in Germany.

My friend's mother lost her sisters to a P-51. They were in a field working in Bad Staffelstein(closest city; Bamburg, 30km). I lived in this area and it is nothing but scattered small villages. She told me she saw the plane coming towards them. They had been told when the planes come for them they must separate and run towards the plane and not away. Her 3 sisters forgot this and in fear ran away from the plane. Frau Scaefer was the only survivor. Before she told me this I liked the P-51. Now it will be my target of choice.

Opa told me that he returned home from duty to find his home bombed and his family missing. He said it sometimes took days to find out his wife and 3 little children survived the bombings. This happened 7 times during the war. I asked why they didn't move away from the industrial areas. Opa told me they never lived near an industrial area, and that it didn't matter.

Everyone I met in Germany seemed to have similar stories about someone in their family.

Discovery; WingsII-Target Berlin

Chuck Jaeger describes how they even attacked cattle. The guncam footage shows attacks on random villages.

Liberation of Germany? How would you imagine German's feel when they here this sentence today? IMHO "Liberation of Germany" is used to cover up an attempted genocide. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You asked about how Germans feel today. I'm German and this is how I feel, and I'm not alone.

Now the can of worms is open.

Fritz Franzen

BuzzardHead
05-10-2005, 10:58 PM
"What's past is prolouge" Shakespere...

SabreF-86
05-11-2005, 01:51 AM
Olli72, you are indeed correct about Donitz being charged and convicted of war crimes. I don't include Donitz for the simple reason that I, along with thousands of his officers and men consider(ed) the charge to be a complete crock. As you mentioned, the Laconia incident had far reaching ramifications, one of which was the order to no longer aid survivors. No point in being honorable and risking your boat if the opposition won't abide by the same rules. Its interesting to note that Donitz called the Chief of US Submarines Pacific fleet as a witness in his defence, siting exactly what you mentioned, ie US policy during the pacific sub campaign. To most people who knew him or have studied him, Donitz got charged because he was one of the surviving big fish and it made for good PR. As I noted in my previous note, as far as I am aware, only one crew was ever brought before the court for real war crimes, and they paid the price.

If anyone is aware of any other incidents, I would like to hear about them.

Sabre

WTE_Ibis
05-11-2005, 03:19 AM
To Fritz Franzen. I feel for you and your parents and grand parents my friend,many innocents paid dearly during the war and the German people today
need feel no shame for the Hitler regime and yes many atrocities were perpetrated by both sides.To deny this is to be blind.
The hand of friendship and forgiveness should be
proffered and accepted by all,I know it's difficult but nothing worthwhile is easy.
Good luck to you and your family.
Cheers, Ibis.

WTE_Ibis
05-11-2005, 03:42 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tjaika1910:
Many good mature post here.

Not to flame you, WTE_Ibis, but also your country has a lot of not-so-hidden racism. Not against the immigrants but against those who lived there originally...
----------------------------------------------
My friend your information I see is learned from afar,not to flame you but if you would Like to see for yourself I have free room and board at your disposal and would be happy to show you around downunder,anything you wish to see,any where you wish to go. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
To Fritz Franzen. I feel for you and your parents and grand parents my friend,many innocents paid dearly during the war and the German people today
need feel no shame for the Hitler regime and yes many atrocities were perpetrated by both sides.To deny this is to be blind.
The hand of friendship and forgiveness should be
proffered and accepted by all,I know it's difficult but nothing worthwhile is easy.
Good luck to you and your family.
Cheers, Ibis.

Agreed. We all lost something during WW2, no matter which side. I feel for everyone involved, soldiers, families, and friends, from all countries.

I personally blame the German society for continuing this guilt trip. They are their own worst enemy in this case. They need to learn to stand up and speak for themselves regardless of what their society calls them. Some have to make the sacrifice. If you can't help yourself who will respect you?

To me this is like pointing to an American, Portugues, or Dutch and blaming him or her for the slave-trade. It's ridiculous even if their direct ancestors were involved. It has nothing to do with the person today.

I am not angry at the crews that flew B-17's over Germany, or the German's for following Hitler. It was a different time and a different place. I'm angry that so many lives, Axis, Jews, Allies, and civilians were wasted due to the selfishness of a handful of politicians.

I'm disappointed that the Germans have been neutered by post war propaganda and even 60 years later the people who weren't even there keep silent and let their anger build. This can only lead to something bad, like the acceptance of another bad leader. History doesn't repeat itself, people repeat history.

There is a silver lining though. Communication. As our technology advances we, the human race, are given more freedom of speech and and accessability to share opinions. Even propaganda by the media and governments are being challenged and questioned. Forums or threads like these were not even imagined when we were children.

Now with English being an international language we can communicate with virtually anyone in any country. We can get the truths when our trusted medias are flat out lying.

I feel no shame for the Hitler regime simply because I wasn't there and to be honest don't know what I would have done. I am a product of my experiences and my time and the people of Hitler's time were products of their experiences of their time. Had I been born 100 years ago I'd be a completely different person, as with everyone living today.

The Allies that bombed Germany, the Axis that committed genocide, the people who killed people whether for or against a madman's ideals are still in that time; we are not. No one today is to blame for WW2.

It's over and it's time the Germans crawled out of their shells and got on with life.

Today all countries involved in a world war are getting along relatively well, even with the cheapshots made by the odd politician.

Ibis, after reading your post, if we ever meet in a DF server, I don't think I can shoot you down, but I can salute you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz Franzen

Endrju
05-11-2005, 04:57 AM
So, the can of worms is open. I don't think this is wise but if so I must write something for balance.

The IIWW began in the Polish town of Wielun. It hadn't any military and industrial objects. On 1.09.1939 at 4:50 German bombers from I./KG76 began bombing run. After dropping their bombs crews strafed escaping civilians with machineguns. Effect of the attack was destructing 70% of buildings and killing 1200 people out of 16000

Here in the picture is a little Polish town of Frampol in the very beginning of the war (13.09.1939):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/and_r/frampol.jpg
On the left side - before bombardment, on the right - after
Frampol was chosen as a target for test-bombing. This is a 'nice' object for such a task, doesn't it? Regular square shape with town hall in the center. The town hadn't any military or industrial meaning, thus it was not defended by AAA. This is another reason why it was chosen for test target - the bombers could fly slowly and bombers crews could concentrate on dropping their loads precisely.
In effect, the town was completely devastated. Of course people in Frampol were not dummies.

These cases were only small cuttings of such actions done Luftwaffe.

If some of you accuse allied airmen of war crimes, then you must all time keep in mind who began this war, who introduced these methods and all this madness.

tjaika1910
05-11-2005, 05:01 AM
To WTE_Ibis: good to hear http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The submarine warfare was an ugly one. Targets were mostly civilian sailors, thrown into war for six long years. This war our nations (Norway) greatest contribution to the war (biggest or second biggest fleet at the time). My great-ucle (lived to the age of 104) was in war for those six years. Lost all his crewmates twice. And was a part of the Murmansk convoys. Norway treated those veterans badly after the war, not even their retirements savings where given. A great shame for our country. They came home some time after the war was ended. Lots of them were nerve-wreck and got no help whatsoever. My fathers uncle was captain in those year, but had of natural reasons not been able to take the formal education during war years. This was not recogniced and he was too tired of fighting to do something about it. But he was not bitter and lived a long a happy life afterwards, unlike so many others. Think he got a medal almost 40-50 years after, given half-heartedly.

The was a least one incident where German subcrew was charged for war crime. I have to check it up, but I think it was an excecution of crew and civilians 7th or 8th of may 1945, done by a german submarine. This was after orders where given to seize fire.

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by Endrju:
So, the can of worms is open. I don't think this is wise but if so I must write something for balance.

The IIWW began in the Polish town of Wielun. It hadn't any military and industrial objects. On 1.09.1939 at 4:50 German bombers from I./KG76 began bombing run. After dropping their bombs crews strafed escaping civilians with machineguns. Effect of the attack was destructing 70% of buildings and killing 1200 people out of 16000

Here in the picture is a little Polish town of Frampol in the very beginning of the war (13.09.1939):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/and_r/frampol.jpg
On the left side - before bombardment, on the right - after
Frampol was chosen as a target for test-bombing. This is a 'nice' object for such a task, doesn't it? Regular square shape with town hall in the center. The town hadn't any military or industrial meaning, thus it was not defended by AAA. This is another reason why it was chosen for test target - the bombers could fly slowly and bombers crews could concentrate on dropping their loads precisely.
In effect, the town was completely devastated. Of course people in Frampol were not dummies.

These cases were only small cuttings of such actions done Luftwaffe.

If some of you accuse allied airmen of war crimes, then you must all time keep in mind who began this war, who introduced these methods and all this madness.

More innocent victims of a handful of politicians' selfishness. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz Franzen

Wannabe-Pilot
05-11-2005, 05:17 AM
Endrju,

I think the question that some German members are addressing is not that they deny or justify the crimes commited by the Nazis or the German armed forces, but rather ask for a more balanced approach where some crimes commited by the Allies would also be mentioned. Not all, but some that were clearly excessive (like strafing farmers in the fields or the bombing of Dresded or the fact that only 5000 out of 130 000 Stalingrad POWs returned home). Not all means can be justified by the end. Also, they don't understand why so much attention to ww2 and regret keeps coming up in Germany 60 years after the fact when other Axis countries get off relatively easy (like Italy or Japan). Read the post about Otto Kretschmar and the Holocaust memorial by the Kriegsmarine, I think it's a fine example of the kind of things that are slowly geting on their nerves.
Perhaps they think that the past has been over them for too long. I don't know as I'm not German nor do I live in Germany. Jsut my 0.2$

Endrju
05-11-2005, 05:25 AM
I don't want German people to feel guilty for the whole life, but if someone begins to enumerate harms that Allies did German society, it force me to remind who really began that war and who did much greater harms to other nations.

What is more, in comparison with countries like Poland, it could be said that German won the war. Marshall plan, quick rebuilt of cities and industry under american welfare (what from is anti-american atmosphere now in Germany???) and so called 'economical wonder'.
While Poland spent many years under Soviet occupation, which brought new terror for people who loved their country the most(e.g. partizans), economical backwardness for the whole society and spoiling minds by communism to this day.

Wannabe-Pilot
05-11-2005, 05:48 AM
That's exactly my point. They want (today's Germans) to be able to mention those crimes and wrongs, again not all but just the ones which were not necessary for the final outcome, and not be hushed immediately by others (other nations)with words like: You started the war you deserved it. Just to mention it... It seems to me they never got much chance to enumerate harms done to them. Maybe they feel that the time is now, because
1) 60 years have passed and you can't blame personally today's Germans for the war, and

2) not a single axis country, or any country in the whole sad history of human conflict, has done more to apologize, honour the victims, and cover itself in ash. YOu have to give them that much.

From the BBC news forum an interesting post

Without VE day, I guess I would have spent my time as a German "frontier farmer" near the Ural, raising genetically checked children and employing working slaves. This notion makes current life - despite all daily troubles - very pleasant. From my point of view: thanks to all allied soldiers for also saving my life.
Peter Schmitz, Berlin, Germany

Bearcat99
05-11-2005, 05:57 AM
The thing we have to remember is this....... the German people of today had nothing to do with the conflict as far as making policy and starting it. Most if not all of the key players are dead and gone. To hold a whole nation in contempt because of the actions of a previous generation only paves the way fopr resentment and more hostility. Does that mean that the Germany of today should be allowed to forget or deny it'a past? Never... that too would open the door for a repeat performance... However the Germans of today should not have to have this continually thrown in thier faces..... or have to justify who they are based on 60 year old actions.

If I wanted to revel in the imagined bliss of ignorance I could hold grudges for sure... i still in 2005 have to deal with the effects of racism just about every day believe it or not.... but life is too short... and I am too busy enjoying the people and things in my life that matter to get caught up on the actions of others who cant see the big picture or to get caught up in what I already know to be a very bad and painful past. Id rather push towards that bright and promising future for my kids and grandkids.

Tvrdi
05-11-2005, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Rab03:


It seems that history becomes relative. Besides Schroeder, there was also Stjepan Mesic, president of Croatia. Mesic even stated few days ago that Croatia fought for the Allies! (Croatia formed extreme fascist state and fought as Germany's ally throughout the war; Ustashi, Croatian fascists, committed horrible crimes on Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, communists and other in former Yugoslavia - only in Jasenovac concentration camp around 600.000 people were murdered).


yes, there was fascist goverment (directed and couraged from nazi Germany and Fascist Italy) in Croatia...but they had around 20% supporters in Croatia...actually most of the Croatian ppl were against that regime---they fought in the Tito`s partisans (actually first partisan unit in europe was raised in Croatia!!)....read the books....together with the croatian serbs they fought against ustashes, germans, italians and serbian fascists called chetnics (who fleeded to the ally side just before war ends and who did the same dirty work as ustashes did towards their own nation who were on the other side and towards other nationlities!)....about Jasenovac concentration camp....as Jew leaders from Croatia confirmed there was executed between 70000 - 100000 ppl (serbs, jews, gipsies and CRAOTIAN ANTIFASCISTS)...these numbers are the facts based on their sources and other impartial sources (docs)..so its rude from you to post this serbian propaganda here, because of that propaganda and idea of "Great Serbia", serbian nationalists attacked Bosnia and Croatia and comminced war crimes and terror in 90s....



now regarding Germans and their guilty....I think they learned a lesson from a past (WW2)and they are now one of the peacefull nations in the World....they are one of the biggest opportunists to the the rapish Bushs politic in the Iraq and Iran...so who need a lesson today?


enough said

FliegerAas
05-11-2005, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
The question was how Germans feel about it now and not how they felt about it back then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[...]
My friend's mother lost her sisters to a P-51. They were in a field working in Bad Staffelstein(closest city; Bamburg, 30km). I lived in this area and it is nothing but scattered small villages. She told me she saw the plane coming towards them. They had been told when the planes come for them they must separate and run towards the plane and not away. Her 3 sisters forgot this and in fear ran away from the plane. Frau Scaefer was the only survivor. Before she told me this I liked the P-51. Now it will be my target of choice.

[...]
Fritz Franzen </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My Grandmother grew up in the country and she told me similar stories. They feared US fighters at low altitude, because they were known for attacking civilians too.
A neighbour of her died by a glorious US fighter while working on the fields.

She(my graandmother)is afraid of low fliyng planes up to now.

The war was a terrible thing for all sides and all sides have commited warcrimes. The war is over now and Germany should start to look into the future and stop feeling guilty for everything that happened before they were even born.

S.taibanzai
05-11-2005, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
The question was how Germans feel about it now and not how they felt about it back then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


"Completely defeated? Yes, very much so, more than was necessary IMO, but I don't want to open that can of worms."

This IS how the Germans feel. During my stay in Germany I noticed a lot of resentment to the bombings.

I had visited a few museums and one that comes to mind was in Hannover. There were many enlarged photos of Hannover after the aerial bombardings. One thing that really stuck in my mind was the fact that residential areas had been bombed extremely heavily. You could see there was nothing industrial for kilometers. Until you see these photos you can't understand. But they are very clear.

So I looked a little deeper and found that this was common in many cities in Germany.

My friend's mother lost her sisters to a P-51. They were in a field working in Bad Staffelstein(closest city; Bamburg, 30km). I lived in this area and it is nothing but scattered small villages. She told me she saw the plane coming towards them. They had been told when the planes come for them they must separate and run towards the plane and not away. Her 3 sisters forgot this and in fear ran away from the plane. Frau Scaefer was the only survivor. Before she told me this I liked the P-51. Now it will be my target of choice.

Opa told me that he returned home from duty to find his home bombed and his family missing. He said it sometimes took days to find out his wife and 3 little children survived the bombings. This happened 7 times during the war. I asked why they didn't move away from the industrial areas. Opa told me they never lived near an industrial area, and that it didn't matter.

Everyone I met in Germany seemed to have similar stories about someone in their family.

Discovery; WingsII-Target Berlin

Chuck Jaeger describes how they even attacked cattle. The guncam footage shows attacks on random villages.

Liberation of Germany? How would you imagine German's feel when they here this sentence today? IMHO "Liberation of Germany" is used to cover up an attempted genocide. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You asked about how Germans feel today. I'm German and this is how I feel, and I'm not alone.

Now the can of worms is open.

Fritz Franzen </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wel said !

S.taibanzai
05-11-2005, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Endrju:
So, the can of worms is open. I don't think this is wise but if so I must write something for balance.

The IIWW began in the Polish town of Wielun. It hadn't any military and industrial objects. On 1.09.1939 at 4:50 German bombers from I./KG76 began bombing run. After dropping their bombs crews strafed escaping civilians with machineguns. Effect of the attack was destructing 70% of buildings and killing 1200 people out of 16000

Here in the picture is a little Polish town of Frampol in the very beginning of the war (13.09.1939):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/and_r/frampol.jpg
On the left side - before bombardment, on the right - after
Frampol was chosen as a target for test-bombing. This is a 'nice' object for such a task, doesn't it? Regular square shape with town hall in the center. The town hadn't any military or industrial meaning, thus it was not defended by AAA. This is another reason why it was chosen for test target - the bombers could fly slowly and bombers crews could concentrate on dropping their loads precisely.
In effect, the town was completely devastated. Of course people in Frampol were not dummies.

These cases were only small cuttings of such actions done Luftwaffe.

If some of you accuse allied airmen of war crimes, then you must all time keep in mind who began this war, who introduced these methods and all this madness.

Wel said also

BSS_Goat
05-11-2005, 07:44 AM
Live by the sword......

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 07:49 AM
Everyone knows what Germany did under Nazi rule. It's no secret and no one knows what happened better than the Germans. We don't deny it and we are ashamed. We've done our best to apologize but we know all attempts will not equal the dirty deed.

We live with the fact that anytime, pretty much anywhere in the world, we are looked at either as Nazis or we remind people of Nazis. Even all the way over here in China when people see me thay ask if I'm German. I guess I look typically German. As soon as I say yes many reply with the Nazi salute and say "Heil Hitler". Unbelievable but true. Ask any German whether born in Germany or abroad if they have received the same Nazi salute at sometime or other. I'm willing to bet everyone will tell you they have.

But what are we supposed to do? Slap the saluter into next week for being ignorant? Sometimes it would be so easy, but not so smart. This would of course support the stereotype.

The difference between German cities being bombed by the Allies, or the Allied cities being bombed by the Germans is that 60 years later it is not acceptable for the Germans to talk about their own losses.

Just two days ago I read an article about what women had to do when the Russians invaded east Germany. The would cover themselves in dirt and try to damage their skin to make themselves look diseased. Why? Simple, the Russian soldiers were raping and kidnapping all the women they could find.

The Allies, the righteous, were doing all the things the Germans had done to others. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

I'm not trying to say who was worst than who because I think that it quite obvious. Murder is bad enough but genocide goes well beyond murder.

I just like to say that you cannot shame us anymore than what we have done ourselves. On the other hand, many non-Germans can be shamed quite easily simply with forbidden information. I'm not into those games. We have accepted what our ancestors have done and we, although we had nothing to do with it, have also apologized.

It's time to stand up, express our grievences, and move on.

Fritz Franzen

pettera
05-11-2005, 08:32 AM
2) not a single axis country, or any country in the whole sad history of human conflict, has done more to apologize, honour the victims, and cover itself in ash. YOu have to give them that much.

This is quite true. Despite that, very little actually happened to most German war criminals. The Nurenberg process only convicted a tiny portion of the Nazis. On the other side, convicting a large portion of Germans to long sentences would hardly make it possible to rebuild the country. So practical politics let a lot of criminals off the hook. This is partly the reason why Bader Meinhof and other German terorist groups had a certain sympaty in the 60's when they targeted old industrial and personal structures.

An other strange part of European history is Austria. They simply chose "Anschluss" but never payed their dues for their contribution to the Nazi regimes war crimes. Somebody remember Waldheim? What a shame! Anybody ever heard an Austrian politician apologize?

As long as there are living Nazis I don't think many of the victims will ever forgive. It was just to terrible. The German (and Austrian for that sake) people where quite happy with the situation as long as other nations where slaughtered. So even though they had to take a big toll at the end the pity is saved for other nations such as Poland. They never chose agression.

Interesting discussion though. Reminds you that IL2 really is about the worst crimes ever perfomed by mankind.

Petter

csThor
05-11-2005, 08:51 AM
IMO the Nuremburg process was a stillbirth right from the start. I don't mind the hanging of all those folks there, but when the US agreed to Stalin that only the german "suspects" were to be tried while crimes comitted by Allied/Russian soldiers would go unpunished it loaded the whole thing with the shism of victor's justice. To make it worse it was - whatever moral justification the whole Nuremburg Process had - a victor's justice with charges the victors had come up with just before the process.

Back then most people would not have minded the whole gang put in front of a fireing squad, but when they were tried as symbols for the whole of Germany it raised protest and even made many germans solidarize with the culprits. This one-sided justice has placed a time bomb which is still ticking today (can you say US Forces and the International Court in Den Haag?).

Atomic_Marten
05-11-2005, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rab03:


It seems that history becomes relative. Besides Schroeder, there was also Stjepan Mesic, president of Croatia. Mesic even stated few days ago that Croatia fought for the Allies! (Croatia formed extreme fascist state and fought as Germany's ally throughout the war; Ustashi, Croatian fascists, committed horrible crimes on Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, communists and other in former Yugoslavia - only in Jasenovac concentration camp around 600.000 people were murdered).


yes, there was fascist goverment (directed and couraged from nazi Germany and Fascist Italy) in Croatia...but they had around 20% supporters in Croatia...actually most of the Croatian ppl were against that regime---they fought in the Tito`s partisans (actually first partisan unit in europe was raised in Croatia!!)....read the books....together with the croatian serbs they fought against ustashes, germans, italians and serbian fascists called chetnics (who fleeded to the ally side just before war ends and who did the same dirty work as ustashes did towards their own nation who were on the other side and towards other nationlities!)....about Jasenovac concentration camp....as Jew leaders from Croatia confirmed there was executed between 70000 - 100000 ppl (serbs, jews, gipsies and CRAOTIAN ANTIFASCISTS)...these numbers are the facts based on their sources and other impartial sources (docs)..so its rude from you to post this serbian propaganda here, because of that propaganda and idea of "Great Serbia", serbian nationalists attacked Bosnia and Croatia and comminced war crimes and terror in 90s....



now regarding Germans and their guilty....I think they learned a lesson from a past (WW2)and they are now one of the peacefull nations in the World....they are one of the biggest opportunists to the the rapish Bushs politic in the Iraq and Iran...so who need a lesson today?


enough said </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that wasn't tragic it would be indeed funny. To play with numbers and history (hello we are talking about people's lifes here) like that... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

600,000. That simply is not true according to what any of seroius historian will say about number of victims there. They were all saying about 70,000 - 100,000 murdered people there.

I agree with Tvrdi completely.

Rab03 your post is very biased and must say offensive to every Croatian today. You have intentionaly left to say that in that very camp there was also CROATIANS that were murdered as well. In fact, many Croatians who were opposed the nazi regime was killed by ISC (NDH) regime. Those same Ustaschis sometimes used to hang anti-fascist minded Croatians on flags by the road in their villages.

Yet you also intentionally fail to say that the leader of partisan movement in former Yugoslavia was indeed Croatian.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Yet you also don't say that the *ONLY* really strong resistance movement in Europe was FORMED IN CROATIA M8, and soon spreads to all former Yugoslav countries; Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia -- they were the strongest partisan force in occupied Europe</span>. The first formed partisan brigade was consisted of about ~100 people; they were mostly Croats, there were Serbs and few Slovenians. And was formed soon after the country was occupied by Italians and Germans.

After that, partisan movement spread thru the former country of Yugoslavia, gaining more and more soldiers.

Once when allied forces were awared of that, they have started to send help in equipment to partisans.

The fact remains -- that they were ONLY one in Europe at that time that were able to actually liberate some parts of their country on their own. And you wonder why S.Mesic was on that celebration. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So Rab03, I reccomend that you start to read history books. A lot. You need it believe me. I just wonder why you choose to take Rab (island in Adriatic sea, in Croatia) as your nick. When you obviously do not like Croatia, that is.

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 09:17 AM
I don't expect anyone to forgive those responsible for what happened. I'm not a survivor or victim and I don't forgive, neither should anyone else.

The point is, as others have already said in this thread, we today are not responsible just as those of other nations today are not responsible for their ancestor's actions.

I think it's time everyone turned their sites to countries like Japan and Austria, the countries that point the finger at Germany to cover their own past. At least we admitted and even tried to apologize. Even Switzerland, although remained officially neutral, has dirty hands.

Lucky for me, I grew up in a North America where freedom of expression was an ideal earned by defiance against the oppression of imperialism.

I am in difiance of propaganda and stereotyping, and I am proud of my German blood.

Once again, and I can't say it enough, it's time for Germans everywhere to stand up for themselves.

Fritz Franzen

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 09:34 AM
now regarding Germans and their guilty....I think they learned a lesson from a past (WW2)and they are now one of the peacefull nations in the World....they are one of the biggest opportunists to the the rapish Bushs politic in the Iraq and Iran...so who need a lesson today?

I'm not sure what you mean by opportunists but Germany has actually played an important part in the Iraq war, behind the scenes.

They did not join in the combat but they were and are protecting the troops in various ways such as special units sent to protect the forces from gas attacks.

You also might want to question where wounded troops go for hospitalization. There are also many US bases in Germany used as stop-overs for troops going to Iraq. Frankfurt airpot, at least in my last 4 visits, had no less than 5 US transport carriers sitting on the tarmat.

As far as I know Germany was a staging ground for the coillition forces. Also obviously fuelling area.

Germany may have been against the war and never entered combat, but they are invaluable support for the coilition forces, especially the US.

Opportunists? I don't think so. I'm no expert on this but what I wrote is what I've seen and been told first hand by US soldiers in Bamberg.

Fritz Franzen

airdale1960
05-11-2005, 10:11 AM
While stationed in W. Germany in 1980, I met a WWII soldier on the street, crippled and blind on the right side of his body. He seemed to be amazed at the size of us Americans. He was a small man about 4'4". He showed no bitterness toward me, and was very polite. He was happy to tell his story of the Russian front.
The church we went to had a Russian, German and American congregation. We all had communion together every so often.
Germany payed the price of patriotism to ones country, just as the CSA did in 1865.
I always pray my blind allegiance to my country doesn't take me down the same path.
We must always question our leaders motives and intentions; guard against blind faith in our political leadership. airdale1960

Atomic_Marten
05-11-2005, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by airdale1960:
While stationed in W. Germany in 1980, I met a WWII soldier on the street, crippled and blind on the right side of his body. He seemed to be amazed at the size of us Americans. He was a small man about 4'4". He showed no bitterness toward me, and was very polite. He was happy to tell his story of the Russian front.
The church we went to had a Russian, German and American congregation. We all had communion together every so often.
Germany payed the price of patriotism to ones country, just as the CSA did in 1865.
I always pray my blind allegiance to my country doesn't take me down the same path.
We must always question our leaders motives and intentions; guard against blind faith in our political leadership. airdale1960

These are so true words. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by airdale1960:
While stationed in W. Germany in 1980, I met a WWII soldier on the street, crippled and blind on the right side of his body. He seemed to be amazed at the size of us Americans. He was a small man about 4'4". He showed no bitterness toward me, and was very polite. He was happy to tell his story of the Russian front.
The church we went to had a Russian, German and American congregation. We all had communion together every so often.
Germany payed the price of patriotism to ones country, just as the CSA did in 1865.
I always pray my blind allegiance to my country doesn't take me down the same path.
We must always question our leaders motives and intentions; guard against blind faith in our political leadership. airdale1960

These are so true words. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll second that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz Franzen

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 10:57 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by airdale1960:
While stationed in W. Germany in 1980, I met a WWII soldier on the street, crippled and blind on the right side of his body. He seemed to be amazed at the size of us Americans. He was a small man about 4'4

Jatro13th
05-11-2005, 12:02 PM
Hi Guys!
I just read what every one has written and some very true words have been laid down. Well, I am not German, I am not Russian, nor English nor French... I am just a "bloody Greek" like some of the people in England, where I study, call me. Being a Greek places me in a position where my country was not on the official winner's nor on the official loser's side. My grandfather fought in the tactical and later guerilla army. But whom did he fight against? Well I can asure you that the Germans and Italians (and I say Germans and Italians because they were not all Nazis and Fascists, but a bunch of people whose fear of disobedience was greater than the fear of their forthcoming guilt,) were not the only people he fought against. You might find this absurd and it is maybe the first time you hear this from a person, but the Germans and Italians (their official Wehrmacht version) were only a fraction of the enemy for some of the Greeks. The other parts were consisted of other Greeks (whose right winged ideas collided with the left ideas of my grandad's comrades), and the English -Yes the English- who didn't want to see the left winged illegal party get more and more power and, for that reason, collaborated with the Germans and right thinking Greeks. (The help from the English Army the lefties once received during the war -my grandad included- was boxes full of LEFT BOOTS!!!!! Imagine the irony). Well that is a surprise!!! The English collaborating with whom? ZE GERRRRMANS. Why? To fight off communism. In the end what do we have? We have the English and the rest of the Allies winning the war (against nazism? Against communism?) and the Germans being, for a second time, humiliated. Remember Dresden! But what happens to minor countries which really fought against Nazi totalitarianism? Well here is a small account for Greece. After the war we have plenty years of civil slaughter, thanks to our friends the English and the Greek Government(remember Scoby and George Papandreou). My grand-parents total time of imprisonment for their ideas back in the 40's and 50's sums up to 13 years. After the civil war is over with the defeat of the Lefts, we have some years of Dictatorship imposed by the Great ally, the one and only U.S. of A. Bill Clinton recently apologised for that in Athens in 1999. Well, that leaves us U.S.S.R. The USSR really did the job for the Lefties like my grandad in the war. The guerillas were waiting for Papa Stalin to come and help them, but in return they get what? NOTHING. The Red Army never comes, thanks to Yalta Treaty. You want to call this treason? Well I would.
I am really sorry if I bored you with some facts about Greece and its interior and exterior affairs, but the reason I said all this is that in reality no one lost, no one won the war. If people in Germany are ashamed of their ancestors' acts, maybe the people who keep reminding them those things should wait a moment and reflect upon their own country's deeds and acts, and then speak. In the year 2005 I find myself being a subject of a country that is in its current condition not just because the so much hated by all Germans invaded it, but because it was raped by people of all nationalities. Greeks with their treason, Germans and Italians with their invasion, English and Americans with their ridiculous and absurd intervention, Soviets with their absence and many many more...
One thing I know... I never insulted a person for their country's history, because mine is not much better than their's. Have a look at the current status of affairs a big country like England and America have to offer ( I am sorry but it is not my intention to offend some people but the reason for writing this is that these countries rule the world currently). I think these facts matter a lot more than the fact that my family's life was destroyed some 60 years ago. We tend to forget the past, but we also don't take into account the present.

From here you can make your own judgements. Thank you all for reading this.
Jatro over and out!

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 12:20 PM
Very interesting Jatro, to be honest the only thing I knew about Greece in WW2 was that they embarrassed the Italians.

You are right though. Although current situations are not as large as WW2 there are somethings wrong in the world today. I often imagine 3-4 generations in the future studying history and people asking "Why did they let it happen?", "Why didn't they stand up to the government". And someone will have the same answer I give when I'm asked the same questions about what happened 70 years ago;" It was a different time and a different place, we cannot understand but we should try anyway".

Interesting points Jatro http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz Franzen

Endrju
05-11-2005, 12:48 PM
Yeah Jatro, quite interesting, but why do you use communist's sickle and hammer in the avatar??
Have you seen anyone here in the forum with svastika as an avatar??

Don't you know that communism brought death and suffering to many times more people than nazism and fascism?

Why nowadays these two ideologies are incarnation of evil and communism is not? I don't understand... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Jatro13th
05-11-2005, 01:31 PM
Well, it is very interesting that you say that because this point of yours really shows the differences between two people living in two different parts of the world. Although this diverges from the scopes of this thread, I am going to answer it because you sound interested.
As we know, Nazism in its doctrines emphasises the differences of people, and transforms them into a tool for suppression of the fellow human being. The theory does not lie far away from the facts. At least you have got to admit that the people who embraced those ideas put them into action and they did not feel any remorse for standing up to them. And of course they rightfully died once the suppressed-to-be won the war.
On the other hand, communism is a theory that has never been put into practice. As you remember, the USSR had a socialist regime. It had its advantages and its drawbacks as any other human devised system has. The fact that, as you say Communism, has killed many people is wrong to my opinion, because a)as I stated above, Communism has never existed, b)The socialist regime of the USSR went off track at a certain point (and this is proved by its overthrow in the 80's and early 90's) and finally c)never and nowhere in the doctrines of communism will you find a paragraph saying anything about "killing", cleasning" or "nationalism". Apart from that, just sit for a moment and think how many people are killed by our beloved capitalist regimes throughout the world. Just the existence of the Third World is proof enough.
I could really go on and on and on explaining what communism is, but it is very difficult for everyone, even Lenin himself, to say what it really is, because we cannot think this way yet, and the way this world is going, we will never be able to do it...
There are many books which one can read about what socialism and communism is about, the best being the "State and Revolution" by V.L. Lenin. This book really can eliminate your fears.
Those are theories and Ideals of course. In my country some 3000 years ago, it was inconceivable to be a-political. I chose to be political, and because of my family's history, I learnt what this dreaded and hated communism is about. Well I can tell you that I prefer it to any other political system that can currently be proposed.
I do not want to turn this thread into a propaganda, but I wanted to explain in a few lines that communism is not bad. It is of course impossible.
To end it here, although it shouldn't be like that, I can remove my avatar if some people are offended.
Thanks for reading! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BBB_Hyperion
05-11-2005, 01:59 PM
Dont forget that this symbol isnt seen as a utopia and that its common interpretation going along with these regimes and their way to handle things you mentioned. You cant change peoples experience with this symbol since 1918 and how they feel about it. So when you chose it you represent it and you are part of that and there is nothing you can do about it. So you should be more carefull in the choice of symbols cause the intention will not be asked for some it is believed to be known. And i am afraid more know it in another context than you claimed here.

Tvrdi
05-11-2005, 02:22 PM
and when we are talking about war crimes and terror why we choosed only Germany in WW2?? why we are not talking about colonist killings in 19th and 20th century?? u know there were nations (empires) who executed amerindians, Indians, africans, Incas, Vietnamese, Chinese, etc etc...OK its WW2 aviation forum, but germans werent only who commited crimes in WW2...you can say they were first but even that is not true? Remmember Czechoslovakia? at the very beginning of the WW2 that Country was attacked by germans from the south and by russians from the north! And what happened after the war someone else already mentioned.....Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania, Czechoslovakia,...Czech pilots, one of the best BoB pilots ended in russian prisons....WTF?

LStarosta
05-11-2005, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:


[color:YELLOW][b]Yet you also don't say that the *ONLY* really strong resistance movement in Europe was FORMED IN CROATIA M8...

Ummm... No.

Endrju
05-11-2005, 02:44 PM
Yeah, Hyperion is right, but my own opinion goes further.
I (and many wise people too) think that socialism and communism are bad and immoral becouse they limit people's liberty. They limit human's right to possession. You wrote that Nazism emphasizes differences between people. So do socialism becouse it divides people on rich and poor. Rich are bad and being deprived of their possession only becouse they are smart and gained that possession. Poor people are good and are gifted with the property of rich people, despite they didn't work for that.

And you say that Third World is poor becouse of capitalism?? No, it is so becouse of 1) primitivity of their societies 2) uneven chances given by rich nations (e.g. 288% custom duty for import of vegetables to EU) 3)international consent to bandit's rules in these countries. For example USA which was conducting humanitary mission's protection in Somalia was criticised by left-winged activists and had to retreat.
Sorry Mr Moderator for developing off-topic thoughts, don't close this thread! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
05-11-2005, 03:00 PM
I always find the argument that capitalism = freedom/good oddly disturbing. I'm no communist (or socialist although I have been callled a 'BBC watching, lefty pot smoking pinko' online by someone who frequents these boards) but I see outright capitalism (greed and consumerism) as evil as communism ever was in that it confines people socially and economically in the long run. Not to mention that consuming resources at an unsustainable rate just because people can't be bothered to be forward thinking will probably destroy the very planet we all share. Of course, polarised people rarely see someone's else point of view or, for that matter, that someone could actually be non-polarised.

Anyway, back to the point. I've spoken to German friends about the war many times and they've always maintained that they were absolutely glad that Hitler lost. Although I knew the answer, I still asked the question as to why anyone would be glad that their country lost a war and the reply was, "Imagine the world if Hitler had succeeded." So, if their views are anything to go by, a lot of Germans will be as relieved that the Allies won as the Allies themselves.

Norris

Atomic_Marten
05-11-2005, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:


[color:YELLOW][b]Yet you also don't say that the *ONLY* really strong resistance movement in Europe was FORMED IN CROATIA M8...

Ummm... No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't want to get into any large discussion here, but as soon as you provide me some info about other partisan forces (resistance movements) that were actually liberated some parts of their countries in Europe -by the end of 1942- from Germans/Italians by themselves and have been involved in large scale ground battles against axis forces, I'll back up my statement.
Otherwise.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Some internet links
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/yugoslavia/ ---general info about YU partisans and units
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/sitemap-hr.asp ---on the bottom of the page are large military operations (Operacija), they are described in English
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/yugo/yugo-part-home.htm ---short history of Yugoslav Air Force in WW2
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/camps/death/default.asp ---death camps

Also particularly take a look at this bettle
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/battles/schwarz/default.asp

Airmail109
05-11-2005, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
I always find the argument that capitalism = freedom/good oddly disturbing. I'm no communist (or socialist although I have been callled a 'BBC watching, lefty pot smoking pinko' online by someone who frequents these boards) but I see outright capitalism (greed and consumerism) as evil as communism ever was in that it confines people socially and economically in the long run. Not to mention that consuming resources at an unsustainable rate just because people can't be bothered to be forward thinking will probably destroy the very planet we all share. Of course, polarised people rarely see someone's else point of view or, for that matter, that someone could actually be non-polarised.

Anyway, back to the point. I've spoken to German friends about the war many times and they've always maintained that they were absolutely glad that Hitler lost. Although I knew the answer, I still asked the question as to why anyone would be glad that their country lost a war and the reply was, "Imagine the world if Hitler had succeeded." So, if their views are anything to go by, a lot of Germans will be as relieved that the Allies won as the Allies themselves.

Norris

I also believe it is bad and and immoral for people to have the freedom and rights to exploit others.

Airmail109
05-11-2005, 04:05 PM
sorry double post: "Facts and figures in the latest annual UN Human Development Report lay to rest the myth that growing global poverty is caused by over-population or a lack of resources.The report shows that the social wealth exists to completely eradicate the grinding poverty and hunger suffered by more than a quarter of the world's people.

The problem is the inexorable logic of the capitalist market, based on the private ownership of this socially-created wealth. It ensures the impoverishment of ever-wider layers of the world's people and the accumulation of gargantuan riches in the hands of a tiny minority.

According to the report, the combined assets of the globe's seven wealthiest men alone could eliminate poverty and provide access to basic social services for all those who live in severe need.

The report's authors calculate the cost of overcoming poverty and providing essential social services in the so-called developing countries to be $80bn a year over the next 10 years. This sum is less than the net worth of the seven biggest billionaires.

In other words, the suffering of great masses is the product not of natural causes but of the existing economic and social order.

More than that, the report points to a glaring contradiction. Never before has humanity had such capacity to wipe out poverty and its associated social evils -- disease, malnutrition, illiteracy, homelessness and child labour. But the plight of hundreds of millions of people is worsening.

Nearly a third of the population in the former colonial countries -- about 1.3 billion people -- live on less than $1 a day. This is an increase of almost 100 million since 1987. Some 840 million people do not get enough to eat, nearly one billion are illiterate and well over a billion lack access to safe water. Almost a third of the people in the most deprived countries -- most of which are in sub-Saharan Africa -- are not expected to live to age 40.

Social inequality has reached truly obscene and grotesque proportions, both on a global scale and within every country. To cite several examples provided in the report:

The net wealth of 10 billionaires is worth 1.5 times the combined national incomes of the 48 poorest countries.
The gap between the poorest fifth of the world's population and the richest fifth has increased from 30 to 1 in 1960, to 61 to 1 in 1991, and to 78 to 1 in 1994.
Mexico's richest man had a net wealth of $6.6 bn in 1995, equal to the income of the 17 million poorest Mexicans.
In the advanced capitalist countries of Europe, North America, Japan and Australasia, real wages and living standards have been driven down so far that 100 million people live below the income poverty line, set at half the individual median income.

Another indicator of the underlying processes at work is the UN report's estimation that the transnationals, banks and governments of the wealthy countries are effectively stripping poor countries of $500bn a year through declining real commodity prices and high interest rates."

LStarosta
05-11-2005, 04:06 PM
You said the only "strong" resistance movement. So now all other partisan forces are not "strong" because they didn't have prevailing circumstances? I'm sure lots of these partisan veterans would like to thank you for acknowledging their contribution to the war. I'm sorry, but under the circumstances, success is not defined solely by "liberation". Many partisan forces contributed to the war effort by cooperating with the Allies not only tactically, but strategically as well. Many things come to mind such as covert operations, espionage, recovery of downed airmen, recovery of POW's, among others. Your tone and emphasis on the word labelling the Croatian resistance as the "only" strong resistance movement is deeply offending, when you consider that Croatia was only one of many countries with successful resistance movements which contributed greatly to the overall war effort.

NorrisMcWhirter
05-11-2005, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
sorry double post: "Facts and figures in the latest annual UN Human Development Report lay to rest the myth that growing global poverty is caused by over-population or a lack of resources.The report shows that the social wealth exists to completely eradicate the grinding poverty and hunger suffered by more than a quarter of the world's people.

The problem is the inexorable logic of the capitalist market, based on the private ownership of this socially-created wealth. It ensures the impoverishment of ever-wider layers of the world's people and the accumulation of gargantuan riches in the hands of a tiny minority.

According to the report, the combined assets of the globe's seven wealthiest men alone could eliminate poverty and provide access to basic social services for all those who live in severe need.

The report's authors calculate the cost of overcoming poverty and providing essential social services in the so-called developing countries to be $80bn a year over the next 10 years. This sum is less than the net worth of the seven biggest billionaires.

In other words, the suffering of great masses is the product not of natural causes but of the existing economic and social order.

More than that, the report points to a glaring contradiction. Never before has humanity had such capacity to wipe out poverty and its associated social evils -- disease, malnutrition, illiteracy, homelessness and child labour. But the plight of hundreds of millions of people is worsening.

Nearly a third of the population in the former colonial countries -- about 1.3 billion people -- live on less than $1 a day. This is an increase of almost 100 million since 1987. Some 840 million people do not get enough to eat, nearly one billion are illiterate and well over a billion lack access to safe water. Almost a third of the people in the most deprived countries -- most of which are in sub-Saharan Africa -- are not expected to live to age 40.

Social inequality has reached truly obscene and grotesque proportions, both on a global scale and within every country. To cite several examples provided in the report:

The net wealth of 10 billionaires is worth 1.5 times the combined national incomes of the 48 poorest countries.
The gap between the poorest fifth of the world's population and the richest fifth has increased from 30 to 1 in 1960, to 61 to 1 in 1991, and to 78 to 1 in 1994.
Mexico's richest man had a net wealth of $6.6 bn in 1995, equal to the income of the 17 million poorest Mexicans.
In the advanced capitalist countries of Europe, North America, Japan and Australasia, real wages and living standards have been driven down so far that 100 million people live below the income poverty line, set at half the individual median income.

Another indicator of the underlying processes at work is the UN report's estimation that the transnationals, banks and governments of the wealthy countries are effectively stripping poor countries of $500bn a year through declining real commodity prices and high interest rates."

Well put. Don't you find it frankly unbelievable that poverty will be eradicated within n years because I think it's all talk. I also think that a lot of people have lost touch with what quality of life means; just because someone doesn't have a 50" plasa widescreen and $2000 of gaming PC doesn't mean they are "poor"...except to a capitalist. Actually, that's not quite right...a capitalist would view someone in that situation as a potential customer.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Norris

Atomic_Marten
05-11-2005, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
You said the only "strong" resistance movement. So now all other partisan forces are not "strong" because they didn't have prevailing circumstances? I'm sure lots of these partisan veterans would like to thank you for acknowledging their contribution to the war. I'm sorry, but under the circumstances, success is not defined solely by "liberation". Many partisan forces contributed to the war effort by cooperating with the Allies not only tactically, but strategically as well. Many things come to mind such as covert operations, espionage, recovery of downed airmen, recovery of POW's, among others. Your tone and emphasis on the word labelling the Croatian resistance as the "only" strong resistance movement is deeply offending, when you consider that Croatia was only one of many countries with successful resistance movements which contributed greatly to the overall war effort.

My post wasn't, not by an longshot, an attempt to disregard or belittle other resistance movements. The all brave men and women in other occupied countries have my utmost respect. The fact remains that, in spite their heroic attempts, none of the other resistance movements in the Europe at that time had a possibility to do such thing. But all of them are equal, they have all shared a common goal.

Choice of my words are not well in regard you that you have mentioned, I can clearly see that now. I have not meant that and I apologize for that.

Also, I must point out that Croatian resistance was at that time coordinated by one partisan HQ. Serbs, Slovenians and other nations were fighting alongside Croatians versus axis forces under one HQ -- the successes against axis forces were results of joint operations.

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Dont forget that this symbol isnt seen as a utopia and that its common interpretation going along with these regimes and their way to handle things you mentioned. You cant change peoples experience with this symbol since 1918 and how they feel about it. So when you chose it you represent it and you are part of that and there is nothing you can do about it. So you should be more carefull in the choice of symbols cause the intention will not be asked for some it is believed to be known. And i am afraid more know it in another context than you claimed here.

Then Hyperion, should we ban certain flags of nationality if we have an Iraqi simmer? This is starting to sound like the EU isn't it? That's not stab at any nation or nations, just an example.

As for communisim it has never been more than an impossible theory used by politicians, on both sides, for politacal gain. The problem is too many people have no idea what communisim is. If you read about it you'll find it has a lot of good in it, but as Jatro said, it's impossible, it has it's flaws. But maybe Jatro is simply showing the avatar to represent the good he believes in. Tripple B, try to think past the stereotypes and propagandas. Stalin represents death and suffereing, not the flag.

We cannot make everyone happy and appease to everyone sensitivities. If we do this we create chaos.

Fritz Franzen

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
and when we are talking about war crimes and terror why we choosed only Germany in WW2?? why we are not talking about colonist killings in 19th and 20th century?? u know there were nations (empires) who executed amerindians, Indians, africans, Incas, Vietnamese, Chinese, etc etc...OK its WW2 aviation forum, but germans werent only who commited crimes in WW2...you can say they were first but even that is not true? Remmember Czechoslovakia? at the very beginning of the WW2 that Country was attacked by germans from the south and by russians from the north! And what happened after the war someone else already mentioned.....Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania, Czechoslovakia,...Czech pilots, one of the best BoB pilots ended in russian prisons....WTF?

Random House Webster's College Dictionary:

Holocaust- a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire. 2 a sacrifice consumed by fire. 3 the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps in WW2. 4 any reckless destruction of life.

Hmmm, never mentioned England. According to my 4 dvd BBC documentary the word "Holocaust' was first used about 500 years ago to describe the mass execution of the Jews in the UK. I believe it was 200 years later the same thing happened again, in England.

My point is in my first line. College Dictionary.

Fritz Franzen

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 08:53 PM
I just spent almost half an hour writing a reply to a couple of the political posts. Then I simply deleted it. I almost forgot the topic and the forum rules. Let's use what we have learnt from each other and show restraint.

I'm amazed at how well this thread has gone. Trust me, 2 years ago it would have been so peaceful and would have been locked a long time ago. I just want to say thanx to everyone who has posted and shared their opinions, in a good mannor. What I have learnt from this thread is that we ARE improving, through communication.

If it wasn't 10:52 am I'd gladly raise a glass of beer to you guyz, but the thought is there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

blakduk
05-11-2005, 09:20 PM
I'll add a further 2 cents worth...
Communism is a great ideal, but doomed to failure. The problems with it are many but one of the crucial ones, that it shares with facism, is the continuity of rule by an individual (or small group). All humans are corruptible, no matter how saintly they seem, and if you dont have a mechanism for REGULAR change in leadership it will fester. I think the yanks have worked out the right formula there.
Pure capitalism is inherently psychopathic- the best illustration of this was the industrial revolution and the horrors that created. Charles Dickens described it brilliantly and Karl Marx developed a doctrine to try and cure it.
IMHO the only answer is a 'socialist democracy'- one that has people's welfare at its core while encouraging enterprise and rewarding hard work.
There, that's my political manifesto on the table.
As for recent crimes the Germans should be ashamed of- they made DAVID HASSELHOFF a rock star!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

csThor
05-11-2005, 11:07 PM
As for recent crimes the Germans should be ashamed of- they made DAVID HASSELHOFF a rock star!!!!!!!!!

Uhm ... no. He was "pushed" by the record companies and most folks I know made fun of him anyway. And those who liked him ... well - that were the late 80s and early 90s. That wasn't a period of sanity anyway! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

blakduk
05-12-2005, 12:33 AM
csThor- come on, someone bought those albums.
I recall being in Munchen and laughing myself silly when i was told by some local friends what the dreadful song was that the DJ was playing in a nightclub. I thought they were taking the p*iss at first, then I saw the shame in their eyes.

csThor
05-12-2005, 02:14 AM
I'm from the east. We knew at that time that the west was evil so we didn't listen to their music http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Seriously - I was too young to take the blame (born 1980). I'm not guilty of having a bad taste when it comes to music http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Atomic_Marten
05-12-2005, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for recent crimes the Germans should be ashamed of- they made DAVID HASSELHOFF a rock star!!!!!!!!!

Uhm ... no. He was "pushed" by the record companies and most folks I know made fun of him anyway. And those who liked him ... well - that were the late 80s and early 90s. That wasn't a period of sanity anyway! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTF are you guys talking about? If anyone's to blame for '80s-'90s cr@p music, it's Jon Bon Jovi. According to South Park. Hasselhoff is at least good looking guy, and without him there wouldn't be "Baywatch" babes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

[j/k mode off]

Pirschjaeger
05-12-2005, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by blakduk:
I'll add a further 2 cents worth...
Communism is a great ideal, but doomed to failure. The problems with it are many but one of the crucial ones, that it shares with facism, is the continuity of rule by an individual (or small group). All humans are corruptible, no matter how saintly they seem, and if you dont have a mechanism for REGULAR change in leadership it will fester. I think the yanks have worked out the right formula there.
Pure capitalism is inherently psychopathic- the best illustration of this was the industrial revolution and the horrors that created. Charles Dickens described it brilliantly and Karl Marx developed a doctrine to try and cure it.
IMHO the only answer is a 'socialist democracy'- one that has people's welfare at its core while encouraging enterprise and rewarding hard work.
There, that's my political manifesto on the table.
As for recent crimes the Germans should be ashamed of- they made DAVID HASSELHOFF a rock star!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Blakduk I agree completely, a form of social democracy can work for the people, but it won't work for the politicians. Greed would actually become hard work. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As for Hasselhoff, that is no shame compared to "Klingatones" commercials. I still hate little yellow chicken. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

MTV Germany sucks big time but they have a sense of humour. One show is called "Hitlist Germany". Ha ha ha, say it 3 times quickly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Pointed this out to my friends in Germany and hadn't even noticed before. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz Franzen

georgeo76
05-12-2005, 06:56 AM
I've tried to stay out of this thread, more interested in what's being said than injecting my opinions. But recent comments demand response.

We cannot hold Germany responsible for David Hasselhoff until the US apologizes for awarding Grammys to Michel Bolton.


Anyway, this has been an amazingly civil and interesting thread. Thanks for all the input. What a wonderful resource it is; asking others from around the world their thoughts and opinions! I'd consider it a shame to let that go to waste, only patch whineing and discussing the over modeled {insert plane here}.

Endrju
05-12-2005, 02:59 PM
Only small reply to Aimail and Norris:
Don't believe in hypothesis like 'sharing assets of seven richest people would provide...and so on' becouse this is illusion. Do you think that poor countries don't get financial assistance? They do, and this assistance in major part goes to corrupted governments of these countries and is consumed, the rest goes to common citizens and is consumed too.

And the seven richest people in the world, besides consuming goods, they invest their money and cause that they have more and more of them and many other people take advantage too.

A saying says that 'there are lies, greater lies and statistics' so despite statistics whispers easy solutions to your ears, you must use mind and try to understand how does this world revolve.
Thanks God this topic was't closed yet by some uber-zealous moderator http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

crazyivan1970
05-12-2005, 11:18 PM
Cleaned out

Ivan was here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-12-2005, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Cleaned out

Ivan was here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Ha ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Ivan the terrible isn't so bad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Thanks for not locking the thread Ivan. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Frirz Franzen

Luftwaffe_109
05-13-2005, 02:21 AM
yes, there was fascist goverment (directed and couraged from nazi Germany and Fascist Italy) in Croatia...but they had around 20% supporters in Croatia...actually most of the Croatian ppl were against that regime---they fought in the Tito`s partisans (actually first partisan unit in europe was raised in Croatia!!)....

The only Croatian state in existence at the time, the so-called Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska (NDH - Independent State of Croatia], and its representatives did sign the Tripartite Agreement on June 14, 1941. This means the NDH was an Axis state. It was founded on April 10, 1941 by members of a fringe, right-wing (and illegal) party within the Yugoslav Monarchy - the Ustasa Revolutionary Organization. They declared this new state as a result of the Axis invasion, defeat and partition of Yugoslavia, and were placed into a position of power by the invading German and Italian governments. The Ustase at no time achieved power through plebiscite, and at no time prior to the foundation of the NDH had more than marginal support amongst the Croatian population (which I think largely supported the HSS - Hrvatska Seljacka Stranka).

Though the NDH had some elements of a nominally independant state, its own flag, coat-of-arms, national anthem, state and local governments, armed forces, police force, laws and domestic policy, currency, authorities and administration, etc, it at no time during its short existence exerted full self-government.

The NDH, however, was created by the military force and political actions of foreign states, was fully dependent on Italian and, especially, German military intervention and assistance to continue its existence, received unequivocal directions from Germany as to the legal and social order that was to be imposed in the state.

Now, the ligitimate goverment of Croatia was the Banovina Hrvatska, in exile, and the Yugoslav King and his government, also in exile.

However, it is undeniable that the NDH was the only Croatian state (though certainly not the only government, and certainly not the legitimate government, for that was the Yugoslav government in exile) in existance at the time, it did have troops that fought on the side of and supported the Axis and it did have wide support (though mose likely only minority support*). Also the NDH did declare itself an independant and sovereign nation, and was recognised by axis nations.

So the verdict? That's difficult, so as well as providing my opinion i've also given information. For what its worth, I'd say that the only state in Croatia at the time was, quite simply, an Axis minor, though of course that doesn't even tell half the story http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

Best Regards

* The figures I have are, in May 1941, about 25% of the Croatian people supported the Pavelic regime. This percentage fell off rapidly during the following months until November 1942 when it was estimated at 8% to 10%. A year later, it was down to 5%.

(ps. the purpose of my post was only to clear up some missunderstanding that may manifest itself in those with little knowledge of the extremly complicated events which occured in the Balkans at this time.)

(pps. I haven't bothered to talk about the Yugoslav partisans, that's another huge and complex topic for another day. Suffice to say the NDH did not control all of its territory, even nominally)

Luftwaffe_109
05-13-2005, 02:59 AM
I don't want to get into any large discussion here, but as soon as you provide me some info about other partisan forces (resistance movements) that were actually liberated some parts of their countries in Europe -by the end of 1942- from Germans/Italians by themselves and have been involved in large scale ground battles against axis forces, I'll back up my statement.


I don't want to get into an argument either, and I am certainly no expert in the partisan war in Eastern and South-Eastern Europe during WWII, but I am certain that there were areas where partisans also operated and had camps and held territories periodically in other nations. Certainly in areas of the Soviet Union (for example the Pripet Marshes) there were areas that at one time or another the Germans were not fully in control of or that were controlled by partisans and which the Germans conducted anti-partisan sweeps to clear. I think this may have been the case with partisans in the mountains in Crete also.

So it certainly was not only the case with Yugoslavia, as you claimed.

And certainly some of the anti-partisan operations in Russia were huge, but then again operations in Yugoslavia (for example, Operation Knight's Move, the assualt on Tito's Headquaters) were not small!


Best Regards

Sharkey888
05-13-2005, 09:21 AM
Very good discussion, so good I don't know where to put my 2 cents!!

Communism just doesn't work. It might have it's basis as some sort of worker's Utopia with all being equal but in reality it just hasn't worked. All have been dictatorships, with the vast majority of people ending up or staying poor, with lack of many rights-or worse.

On the other hand Capitalism along with Democracy works and gives the vast majority of citizens the chance to become wealthy/educated and all the while giving you much freedom.

I use my wife as an example. She immigrated to the USA 10 years ago from Poland and within this time was able to buy a house, a car and have savings in the bank. She came to this country with no $$, couldn't speak the language and had to clean houses and clean peoples ****-but she was able to better her situation. This is not an exception, this happens all the time in the USA. This would not be possible in too many other places-especially Communist countries!

So be careful when praising the values of Communism, look into the facts. The Hammer and Sickle can have the same negative connotations as the swastika.

Atomic_Marten
05-13-2005, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
I don't want to get into an argument either, and I am certainly no expert in the partisan war in Eastern and South-Eastern Europe during WWII, but I am certain that there were areas where partisans also operated and had camps and held territories periodically in other nations. Certainly in areas of the Soviet Union (for example the Pripet Marshes) there were areas that at one time or another the Germans were not fully in control of or that were controlled by partisans and which the Germans conducted anti-partisan sweeps to clear. I think this may have been the case with partisans in the mountains in Crete also.

So it certainly was not only the case with Yugoslavia, as you claimed.

And certainly some of the anti-partisan operations in Russia were huge, but then again operations in Yugoslavia (for example, Operation Knight's Move, the assualt on Tito's Headquaters) were not small!


Best Regards

For sure the Russian partisans were involved in large scale operations but fact is that; nor did the SSSR was overrun by axis like Yugoslavia nor did the SSSR was entirely European country.


I think this may have been the case with partisans in the mountains in Crete also.

Do you have more info about that?

Luftwaffe_109
05-13-2005, 08:04 PM
Hello, Atomic_Marten.

Although I stress that this is not an area of history that I am an expert in, I'll do my best to adress your questions.


For sure the Russian partisans were involved in large scale operations
Actually, this is a bit of an interesting topic and I€d like to dwell on it a little.


The struggle behind the German front lines in the East was immense; at its peak, it involved some 250,000 partisans against 500,000 men in the security forces. At times it could cause the invader much consternation. In 1943, for example, the Luftwaffe was forced to issue to its pilots a map on which, in red, were marked areas over which it was dangerous even to fly - areas that were in the German-held rear areas themselves.
The Phantom War - The German struggle against Soviet partisans 1941-1944, by Matthew Cooper

Which quite clearly makes it, by far, the largest partisan war in Europe in WWII. However, the danger with studying the different resistant movements (and with this I include all the resistance movements) is that we might overstate the impact that they had, especially if we really on partisan sources, for example:

Sir Basil Liddell Hart, for example, believed their activities to have been both ineffective and counter-productive, rarely being more that just a nuisance value and having direct consequences for the civilian population by provoking the enemy into taking severe reprisals. Such writers point to the fact that the partisans were but an auxiliary force of the Red Army; that their activities did not become serious until the second half of the occupation; that, even then, they were limited to the poorer, less populated, and often less strategic areas; and that, in any case, Soviet claims for their successes are wildly exaggerated. Indeed, if early Soviet accounts are to be believed, the Germans suffered more than one million casualties from guerrilla activity alone - about one-sixth of all their soldiers who fought in the East. At the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, General Jodl, Chief of Operations of the Wehrmacht High Command, in whose interest it would have been to exaggerate the menace of the partisans, doubted whether German casualties in the Soviet Union at their hands were as high as 50,000. Recent studies suggest that they were even less, at between 15,000 and 20,000, not including those of the Eastern volunteers who also took part in security operations.
The Phantom War - The German struggle against Soviet partisans 1941-1944, by Matthew Cooper


But, then again, let€s not forget the significant effect on German morale that the partisans had. When you include the strafing by planes, the risk of ambushes by partisans did break up transports and interrupt transmission of orders and information. The Germans were forced to guard lorries, place sentries on the back of each vehicle and put troops on trains and near all communication centers. Attacks were relativly rare, but they were always guarded against.



nor did the SSSR was overrun by axis like Yugoslavia
I am a bit unsure of what exactly you mean here. Certainly the western areas of Russia were over-run, but perhaps you meant that the very size of the USSR and the speed of the advance as well as the chaos of the routing Soviet divisions at the time (which allowed some of the soldiers to escape capture and join up to form part of the massive partisan units) was helpful to guerrilla operations against the Germans? If so, then I agree.




nor did the SSSR was entirely European country
Well, in my opinion, Belorussia, the Ukraine and Western Russia overrun by the Germans were certainly European, but that€s Ok, I can accept this argument, though I am not sure I see the point.


Do you have more info about that?
While certainly not as great as in Yugoslavia (though at least comparable, I think), there was still quite serious partisan activity around Mount Pindo and in the mountains of North Greece. The partisan war in Crete was even more brutal and fierce than in mainland Greece (See Beevor, The Fall of Crete). Also:

In late October the 5th Mountain Division was moved from Crete to Germany, being replaced by the weak 164th and 713th Infantry Divisions from the Athens and Salonika areas; these two divisions were then disbanded to form Fortress Division, Crete. The garrison on Crete received further reinforcement in the 125th Infantry Regiment (Separate), moved down from Serbia, where it had proved itself in heavy antiguerrilla fighting.
German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944), CMH Publication

I think this shows that the partisans were quite a serious worry on Crete. Regarding the nature of the war conducted, it was very similar to that in the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia:

Guerrilla operations in Greece were not restricted to ambushes. Sabotage, particularly along the vital Athens-Salonika rail line, also played an important part in hampering the supply of the occupation forces and tying down units to perform security duties. The most significant sabotage operation was executed on 25 November, when a small guerrilla force overpowered Italian guards and blew up the Gorgopotamos Bridge. some hundred miles north of Athens. This successful operation not only halted the flow of supplies until repairs could be effected, but led to severe criticism of the Italians by the Germans
German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944), CMH Publication

However, though the partisan war in Greece may well have been larger than in western European countries, it was not as great and took longer to get established than in Yugoslavia:

By the end of 1942, the Greek resistance forces were still in the process of formation, having no centralized command. While Chetniks and Partisans in Yugoslavia had already established higher headquarters to direct operations, and were receiving quantities of supplies from the British forces in the Middle East, the Greek resistance units were recruiting personnel and leaders of such stature as to command the respect and win the support of the population.
German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944), CMH Publication

Since you are particularly interested in areas where it could be argued that the partisans had control, I'd like to point to:

By March 1943, some 4,000 strong, EDES found it necessary to form more battalions and several regiments, some of which were commanded by former Greek Army officers. By July 1943, EDES had 8 to 10 units of two regiments each, the regiments each consisting of 2 battalions, and a total strength of 7,000 men. The headquarters and bulk of these forces were located in Epirus, and smaller groups operated in Thessaly and the Peloponnesus.
German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944), CMH Publication

So it seems to me that EDES had a major presence and mountain redoubts in Epiros and Mt. Pindos:

With an estimated seven divisions and 12,000 men by mid-1943, ELAS units were active the length of Greece, with the exception of the Pindus Mountains area, held by EDES.
German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944), CMH Publication

Since I am not really that well familure in this area of history, I can't comment on just how much of the countryside ELAS units controled at different times, though no doubt this would be an interesting area to research.

Here is a link to the article, in case you want to read for yourself: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/antiguer-ops/AG-BALKAN.HTM.

Best Regards

(ps. It's curious that you are interested in the areas that these partisans controlled. The reason I say this is that, unlike regular troops, guerillas are not really designed to hold ground at all, but to form up, strike at an enemy and melt away before the stronger fire-power of their opponents can be brought to bare on them. Therefore, in most guerilla wars you will see that holding ground was not really important, nor were irregulars usually able to hold territories for very long until they were forced out or had to move out themselve, etc, and had to move to new areas. Instead, the primary aims of the guerrilas were to, firstly, survive and expand and secondly, to inflict as much damage as possible on the regular troops and, thirdly, to gain the support of the local people. This is perfectly illustrated with the Vietnam War, where, though the US managed to remove VC units from areas where it performed hunter-killer sweeps, the VC did fullfil all three of the other objectives I listed above and, moreover, where so flexible that the US was never able to engage them effectivly and eliminate them, as they could always form up for attacks and then disband and melt away to fight another day. The strength of a guerilla unit has always been, in my opinion, its flexibility and the rapid way that it could reposition itself and melt away when the odds where to great against it. Though this is another topic for another time).

Jirozaemon
05-15-2005, 04:10 AM
Hiho,

perhaps this is a good read:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,355605,00.html

(Spiegel English Edition, deals with the british ponit of view of the war, as seen by a german correspondent in the UK)

Regards

Jiro

Jatro13th
05-15-2005, 10:54 AM
Hi there again guys!

I'd like to thank every one in the thread for reading, and taking into account what we all said.

I would really like to continue talking about this topic but these forums are not the place for it.

Another thing is that even when you speak with another person face to face it is difficult, if not impossible, to find solutions and common grounds on polical issues. Imagine now on a thread where you don't even hear the other person's voice.

If we have understood each other (doesn't matter if we have agreed, cause that would be impossible one way or another) that is enough I think!!!! Understanding is the most important part of a conversation. Once it is there, all the rest of the way is open!

So, a Big Thank You to all of you!!!

Jatro over and out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif