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mynameisroland
09-14-2005, 04:52 AM
Yesterday I was online happily out running a Spitfire IXe. The spit pilot was spraying shots at around 800m away - and was in my opinion wasting his ammo, when all of a sudden a single round connects with my Fw A8 and it renders all of my controls disabled. FBD recorded the statistics for the sortie and it measured 267 shots fired one hit and one dead Fw 190.

I think the damage caused by the .50 cal ( unseen damage eg pilot wounding/kill or control damage ) is largely ignored by people who whine that it is too weak. With a 1 sec burst from dead 6 position you should rarely if ever blow up or dewing a target yet you should disable or register enough hits for a kill. 4,6 or even 8 .50 cals will not blow up a target like 2, or 4 x 20 mm cannons will.

mynameisroland
09-14-2005, 04:52 AM
Yesterday I was online happily out running a Spitfire IXe. The spit pilot was spraying shots at around 800m away - and was in my opinion wasting his ammo, when all of a sudden a single round connects with my Fw A8 and it renders all of my controls disabled. FBD recorded the statistics for the sortie and it measured 267 shots fired one hit and one dead Fw 190.

I think the damage caused by the .50 cal ( unseen damage eg pilot wounding/kill or control damage ) is largely ignored by people who whine that it is too weak. With a 1 sec burst from dead 6 position you should rarely if ever blow up or dewing a target yet you should disable or register enough hits for a kill. 4,6 or even 8 .50 cals will not blow up a target like 2, or 4 x 20 mm cannons will.

HellToupee
09-14-2005, 05:41 AM
anygun can get control kill in one hit.

WOLFMondo
09-14-2005, 05:56 AM
I was a bit dubious about using the Mustang MkIII's 4 .50's at first but I'm actually way more successful with them than 6 or 8.

Theres less vibration to put your aim off and you tend, well I do, to make the shots count.

berg417448
09-14-2005, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Yesterday I was online happily out running a Spitfire IXe. The spit pilot was spraying shots at around 800m away - and was in my opinion wasting his ammo, when all of a sudden a single round connects with my Fw A8 and it renders all of my controls disabled. FBD recorded the statistics for the sortie and it measured 267 shots fired one hit and one dead Fw 190.

I think the damage caused by the .50 cal ( unseen damage eg pilot wounding/kill or control damage ) is largely ignored by people who whine that it is too weak. With a 1 sec burst from dead 6 position you should rarely if ever blow up or dewing a target yet you should disable or register enough hits for a kill. 4,6 or even 8 .50 cals will not blow up a target like 2, or 4 x 20 mm cannons will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


A single 30 caliber hit to an engine can do the same thing. Happened to me in the Mustang and some Me-109's many times.

edgflyer
09-14-2005, 07:22 AM
Guns are not to week. Just need to be un-synced

carguy_
09-14-2005, 07:40 AM
Could be an end to a myth that .50cal doesn`t do damage over 300m.

Track plz.

Chuck_Older
09-14-2005, 09:37 AM
The Spit IXe carries Browning .50s?

a .50 API round in a fuel tank will produce the same result as a 20mm cannon round in the same fuel tank- BOOM

p1ngu666
09-14-2005, 09:55 AM
yep, it got slightly less heathen with the E wing

2x 50cal, 2x 20mm hispano

ive had that happen, even lost all controls, engine damage and other damage happen to my IL2 from a AI stuka (full ai ones are uber, more dangerous than 109 and 190)
i was closer, but i was also in a tank..

Chuck_Older
09-14-2005, 10:04 AM
Huh, you really can learn something new every day

NorrisMcWhirter
09-14-2005, 10:20 AM
RW - you should check the recent track of me downing two K4s with minute bursts of .50s.

Online, I've taken the controls of a D9 out at ~600m before; there's not a lot 'wrong' with them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Yak_Ace
09-14-2005, 10:31 AM
As for 0.5-inch Browning: I feel it is a bit ineffective weapon in FB/AEP if compared with 20mm guns. Moreover I found especially one imperishable plane - P.11c! This freak is almost completely resistant to any MG's hits. During fire P11 drops away some scrap materials and that is all. Only guns can quickly damage P.11c. Is your experience with this plane similiar to mine?

Loki-PF
09-14-2005, 10:32 AM
yea anyone who says they are underpowered either cant shoot or fly or both.

IMO though they (and all other MG's) need to be un-synced. Otherwise the historical/real advantage of MG's vs cannon (which is rate of fire contributing to a steady stream of bullets) is non existent.

My biggest problem with the 50's was trying to use them *historically* (like the real pilots/aces in WWII did, high angle deflection shots etc.) I would invariably miss due to packet loss/lag or bullet grouping sapces so large that the EA just flew right through.

Once I made the mental switch to use the 50's in the same manner as a cannon armed plane my effectiveness went wayyy up.

Kuna15
09-14-2005, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
a .50 API round in a fuel tank will produce the same result as a 20mm cannon round in the same fuel tank- BOOM </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Gibbage1
09-14-2005, 12:15 PM
Golden BeeBee. Nothing more. Try dogfighting a Fw-190 A series in a P-51B or III. Those FW's take one HECK of a pounding.

P.S. FW controle wires are not armored. 7.62 could snap them.

faustnik
09-14-2005, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

P.S. FW controle wires are not armored. 7.62 could snap them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fw190s had control rods, not wires. They were stronger and more efficiant than cables.

F19_Olli72
09-14-2005, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yak_Ace:
Moreover I found especially one imperishable plane - P.11c! This freak is almost completely resistant to any MG's hits. During fire P11 drops away some scrap materials and that is all. Only guns can quickly damage P.11c. Is your experience with this plane similiar to mine? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well something is screwed up with the visual dm of P11. Theres been a few posts about this...

Take a look of the WIP dm screenshots and compare it while flying online for example:
http://www.il2center.com/Allied/Poland/01/Index.html

WOLFMondo
09-14-2005, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

P.S. FW controle wires are not armored. 7.62 could snap them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fw190s had control rods, not wires. They were stronger and more efficiant than cables. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so why do they break so quickly!?!?

faustnik
09-14-2005, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

so why do they break so quickly!?!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Every plane in PF is like that, not just the Fw190. The one hit, all controls killed seems to happen to everybody once in a while. I think the damage box for the control cable/rod is larger than reality, so it's easy to loose controls.

tigertalon
09-14-2005, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Every plane in PF is like that, not just the Fw190. The one hit, all controls killed seems to happen to everybody once in a while. I think the damage box for the control cable/rod is larger than reality, so it's easy to loose controls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check out the control systems of Fw190:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/FwControls.jpg

You can see that there is only one possibility to destroy ALL controls with ONE bullet: it has to pass through pilots head!

It is also impossible to loose both aelirons at the same time - happens always. Also rudder - loss of a single rod should result in inability to move the rudder from center ONLY to left or ONLY to right, and not to disable it in BOTH directions (assuming that pilot could only push and not pull the step with his foot effectively).

horseback
09-14-2005, 02:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You can see that there is only one possibility to destroy ALL controls with ONE bullet: it has to pass through pilots head!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, it's pretty hard to just wound somebody with a .50 cal round...

Also, one might want to discuss the relative damage resistance of the BMW engine when its only armor was in front; strikes from the side or rear were usually disabling in real combat; a great many aces' memoirs refer to FWs' engines smoking and seizing quickly due to engine strikes from the rear or sides. I seem to recall something about the oil cooling between the cylinders, rather than having a specific oil cooler radiator under the wings or fuselage, which would make that a weak point, especially with a power plant that ran hot...

As for the DM of the P-11c, it's an old DM inherited from Il-2 Sturmovik, a close cousin of the I-153 and LaGG in this respect, although the I-153 appears to have been fixed, in the sense that you can kill the pilot with LMGs now, instead of having to dewing it or blow up the engine.

cheers

horseback

Chuck_Older
09-14-2005, 03:20 PM
Control surface input danage is over-simplified in every plane in this sim.

P.11 is a flying bullet sponge, always has been. I've set them on fire offline, they burn a good long time, then pour black smoke...and re-join the fight

JG52_wunsch
09-14-2005, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for 0.5-inch Browning: I feel it is a bit ineffective weapon in FB/AEP if compared with 20mm guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and your surprised by this???

Grey_Mouser67
09-14-2005, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

P.S. FW controle wires are not armored. 7.62 could snap them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fw190s had control rods, not wires. They were stronger and more efficiant than cables. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might argue that...of course it depends on a lot of variables, but rods are actually more likely to snap/fail than a similarly rated cable made of multiple strands of flexible wire.

Anyways...I fly with Boehmer and if this is the first time that has happened then I'd say it was a 1 in 10 million shot because I'm sure he has had over 10 million virtual rounds fired at him! I've probably accounted for a million or so of those rounds myself! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Yak_Ace
09-15-2005, 01:28 PM
Thanks for informations about P.11c, guys! I thought I had had a screwed up copy of Il-2/PB. But when you pointed me out that P11's DM is generally a ****, I am calm now.
Otherwise I ought to have discovered this myself because similiar plane - I-153 - DM is a far more realistic!

mynameisroland
09-15-2005, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Golden BeeBee. Nothing more. Try dogfighting a Fw-190 A series in a P-51B or III. Those FW's take one HECK of a pounding.

P.S. FW controle wires are not armored. 7.62 could snap them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Control rods If I remember correctly, also they were carefullly positioned behind items in the fuselage to prevent the liklihood of a dead 6 shot taking them out.

LeadSpitter_
09-15-2005, 04:36 PM
sry to burst your bubble but spit ixe has .303s not .50 cal.

Do you have a track I dont see how one hit can render all your controls maybe rudder elevator or aileron if hit in the miracle cable hitbox spots. Still a one in a million shot.

faustnik
09-15-2005, 04:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Control rods If I remember correctly, also they were carefullly positioned behind items in the fuselage to prevent the liklihood of a dead 6 shot taking them out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


According to this report on Fw190 vulnerability you are correct:
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/190vunerability2adj.jpg

luftluuver
09-15-2005, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

P.S. FW controle wires are not armored. 7.62 could snap them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fw190s had control rods, not wires. They were stronger and more efficiant than cables. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 190 used a mix of cables and rods. The ailerons used rods completely but the rudder and elevator used both. The elevator had rods from the stick to the bellcrank at bulkhead 8, then dual cables to the elevator differential unit and then a rod again. The rudder had rods from the pedals to rudder differential unit and then had dual cables.

lrrp22
09-15-2005, 05:24 PM
LS,

E-wing armament was two 20 mm's outboard and 2 .50's inboard. No .303's were ever fitted to a IXE.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
sry to burst your bubble but spit ixe has .303s not .50 cal.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

mynameisroland
09-15-2005, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

P.S. FW controle wires are not armored. 7.62 could snap them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fw190s had control rods, not wires. They were stronger and more efficiant than cables. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might argue that...of course it depends on a lot of variables, but rods are actually more likely to snap/fail than a similarly rated cable made of multiple strands of flexible wire.

Anyways...I fly with Boehmer and if this is the first time that has happened then I'd say it was a 1 in 10 million shot because I'm sure he has had over 10 million virtual rounds fired at him! I've probably accounted for a million or so of those rounds myself! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Mouser http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You'd be surprised how often Im taken out (pilot kill or controls damaged)by a short burst - or even single hit.

FritzGryphon
09-15-2005, 08:34 PM
I was curious to see under what circumstances the FW-190 pilot would be hit by M2 fire, so I did a small test.

I shot at the FW pilot from the side (supposedly unarmored) and from the rear (armored), to see if the pilot could be hit. From 20, 100, 250 and 500m ranges.

-------
Side shots

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/pkside20.jpg

From the side, the pilot is killed by one direct hit to the head. From all ranges. No protection is offered.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/pkrear20.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/pkrear100.jpg

From the rear, the pilot is killed with one shot to the head from 20m. The bullet goes through the seat armor.

From 100m, the pilot survived one head shot (pictured), and was killed by the second (not pictured). This is important because it indicates that head shots are not always fatal, if the round has been slowed by armor.

From 250m, the M2 bullets could still injure the pilot, but takes considerably more hits to kill him outright. In one case, two arrows through the head, and numerous through the body.

From 500m, the AP rounds did not appear to penetrate the armor, and the pilot did not die, despite many arrows through him. The exception was explosive rounds.

------------

A note on exploding shells:

In the M2 gun, every fourth round is explosive. From the rear, even the greatest range, the pilot was often killed by exploding shells.

These rounds will explode on contact, and cast fragments in all directions. This means rounds striking the top or sides of the canopy can kill the pilot, bypassing the armor completely.

Even from 500m, explosive rounds striking the top of the canopy would kill the pilot by fragmentation. From the side, misses can turn into hits, by fragmentation. It is a very effective pilot-killing round.

In the image below, I've fired two HE rounds, both of which deliberately missed. The pilot was killed by a fragment, probably the one you see going through his chest.



http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/shrap.jpg

-----------

So ultimately it seems that, from the side and quarterlight aspects, the pilot is very easy to kill. You may have had experiences where bomber gunners will fire rounds through the side window, killing you instantly. .30cal rounds striking the front window will glance off harmlessly.

Through the rear armor, close range, M2 rounds can kill in one hit. From further ranges, more hits are required. Often a FW-190 player will find himself injured after being attacked from the rear.

VW-IceFire
09-15-2005, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
sry to burst your bubble but spit ixe has .303s not .50 cal.

Do you have a track I dont see how one hit can render all your controls maybe rudder elevator or aileron if hit in the miracle cable hitbox spots. Still a one in a million shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry to burst your bubble actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The IXc is using the standard 2x20mm Hispano Mark II cannons and 4x .303 machine guns.

On the IXe models, they did away with the outboard .303s and introduced two Browning .50cals in the inner wing cannon slots, moving the Hispanos out to the outboard.

Ultimately this was a slightly better setup as the Hispanos were mounted deeper in the wing and caused slightly less drag and the Browning .50cals hit harder than the far less effective .303s (which were basically a holdout while the Hispanos bugs were worked out).

LeadSpitter_
09-15-2005, 10:31 PM
The 'E' type wing and armament (p.72)

Until the summer of 1944, fighter variants of the Spitfire were built with the 'C' type wing and the standard armament was 2x20 mm cannon each with 120rounds of ammunition and 4 .303 achine guns each with 350 rounds.

Kocur_
09-15-2005, 11:53 PM
A, B, C, D, E, F, ...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kocur_
09-15-2005, 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A note on exploding shells:

In the M2 gun, every fourth round is explosive. From the rear, even the greatest range, the pilot was often killed by exploding shells.

These rounds will explode on contact, and cast fragments in all directions. This means rounds striking the top or sides of the canopy can kill the pilot, bypassing the armor completely.

Even from 500m, explosive rounds striking the top of the canopy would kill the pilot by fragmentation. From the side, misses can turn into hits, by fragmentation. It is a very effective pilot-killing round.

In the image below, I've fired two HE rounds, both of which deliberately missed. The pilot was killed by a fragment, probably the one you see going through his chest </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the tiny, little problem about it is...there was no explosive round in M2 belting IRL...

ImpStarDuece
09-16-2005, 12:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
sry to burst your bubble but spit ixe has .303s not .50 cal.

Do you have a track I dont see how one hit can render all your controls maybe rudder elevator or aileron if hit in the miracle cable hitbox spots. Still a one in a million shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be sure, you is wrong.

All spitfires with the "e" designation had the "E" type wing, which was 2 Hispano with 140 rpg and 2 .50cal with 250 rpg.

Gibbage1
09-16-2005, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
And the tiny, little problem about it is...there was no explosive round in M2 belting IRL... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know for a fact that M2 HE rounds were around at least in mid 42 to late 42. The only reason the PBY Catalina found the Japanese fleet at Midway was because they stole some HE .50 cal rounds from the armory and were going to use it against an H8K that shot them up yesterday. They took extra fuel for the trip. They were done with there patrole, and used the extra fuel to extend there patrole and find the H8K, but found the Japanese fleet. Without the extra fuel and HE rounds, they would of NEVER of found it, and Midway may have had a differant outcome.

So yes, there WAS .50 cal HE rounds. This is not some 3rd hand report, but from a book written by the pilot who flew that PBY Catalina.

Xiolablu3
09-16-2005, 06:22 AM
Spitfire (a) = 8x .303

Spitfire (b) = 4x20mm (I think?)

Spitfire (c) = 4x.303 + 2x20mm

Spitfire (e) = 2x.50 cal + 2x20mm


I wonder what happened to (d) ?

Kocur_
09-16-2005, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
And the tiny, little problem about it is...there was no explosive round in M2 belting IRL... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know for a fact that M2 HE rounds were around at least in mid 42 to late 42. The only reason the PBY Catalina found the Japanese fleet at Midway was because they stole some HE .50 cal rounds from the armory and were going to use it against an H8K that shot them up yesterday. They took extra fuel for the trip. They were done with there patrole, and used the extra fuel to extend there patrole and find the H8K, but found the Japanese fleet. Without the extra fuel and HE rounds, they would of NEVER of found it, and Midway may have had a differant outcome.

So yes, there WAS .50 cal HE rounds. This is not some 3rd hand report, but from a book written by the pilot who flew that PBY Catalina. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont mean to dismiss that story, but isnt it probable that he confudsed ammo types and what he described as high explosive round was in fact API? I have never read about HE round for M2 - not in WW2 fighters, not in Korea. It is possible that there were such (like for MG131 or UB), but was I never heard of such round standarised for M2. Does that PBY pilot mention type, i.e. "M.."?

Cajun76
09-16-2005, 07:33 AM
In "Wings of Gold" by Gerald Astor, he also mentions the PBY mission over Midway. They had gotten the rounds from some of the B-17 guys who were stationed there.

Ah! I found my post from AlmightyTallest's "HE .50cal" thread, here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/5671059482/r/7691034982#7691034982).

Myself:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> "The pilot from VP-44 who picked up the landing force was Ensign Jack Reid. In letters to Gordon Prange after the war, Reid reported that he and his crew had awakened at 0300 on the morning of June 3. (1942) After a breakfast of bacon, eggs, toast, and coffee and a briefing for the twenty-two-plane (PBY) reconnaissance mission that stressed the possibility of an invasion of Midway, Reid took off for the daily twelve-hour surveillance. Some six hours out of Midway, as he prepared to turn in to the dogleg route that would bring him back to Midway, Reid acceded to requests from Cheif Radioman Francis Musser and Navigator Ensign Robert Swan to extend the flight another ten minutes. The crewmen, apparently, were not thinking in terms of finding the Japanese ships so much as hoping for an encounter with an enemy plane. They had borrowed from the Army Air Corps some new explosive bullets that the B-17 gunners swore would destroy anything they hit."

"Wings of Gold" Chapter 5, pg. 85, by Gerold Astor

They found the task force just as they turned for home, but the amazing thing to me is that they wanted to find another plane, to try out the new rounds.

As you know, .50 cal mounts are standard defensive armament for both the B-17 and PBY. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

mynameisroland
09-16-2005, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
sry to burst your bubble but spit ixe has .303s not .50 cal.

Do you have a track I dont see how one hit can render all your controls maybe rudder elevator or aileron if hit in the miracle cable hitbox spots. Still a one in a million shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to burst both of your bubbles

IXe does have .50 cal INSTEAD of .303 inch

see sortie log here - the guy who shot me down recorded only one hit.

Battle-Fields.com

UKD server1

Hayate (pilots name)
Objective Dday
Sep14 01.57 AM
Spit IXe
267 shots fired
1 shot hit

sortie log
17.47 Disabled Boemher's Fw-190A-8's control cables

All of my controls disabled at 700/800m by one .50 cal hit.

AlmightyTallest
09-16-2005, 09:14 AM
lol, I never thought my .50 caliber post would become a treasure trove of info for the weapon. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well, aside from the PBY with HE .50cal, there's a gentleman in that thread who had a few cases of .50 cal HE while in Vietnam, and the date on those rounds was 1944. I belive I also posted photos of the HE .50cal round from a website, it was listed as an experimental round.

So, I'm not saying that HE .50cal rounds didn't exist, I think it's more likely that these rounds were rare, or not a readily available. From all the accounts I found .50cal Armor Piercing Incindiary, regular Incindiary, and Armor Piercing Incindiary Tracer rounds were more common than the HE rounds.

tigertalon
09-16-2005, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
All of my controls disabled at 700/800m by one .50 cal hit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know it wasn't a hispano round?

Aaron_GT
09-16-2005, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Spitfire (a) = 8x .303

Spitfire (b) = 4x20mm (I think?)

Spitfire (c) = 4x.303 + 2x20mm

Spitfire (e) = 2x.50 cal + 2x20mm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The B wing has 2 20mm, 4 .303.

The C wing was the first 'universal' wing - 4 20mm or 2 20mm and 4 .303.

The E wing was the second 'universal' wing - 2 20mm and 2 .50s, or 2 20mm and 4 .303, or 4 20mm.

I don't know what happened to the D wing either!

Kocur_
09-16-2005, 09:56 AM
From that other thread:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bigchump Posted Thu March 03 2005 07:35
Almighty:
Thanks, it's nice not to be called "baby-killer" anymore.
I never used the HE rounds.
I can only verify that they did exist.
I had one wood case with four boxes in it.

I don't have the foggiest idea whether this stuff was ever used on A/C, but it WAS used by quad-fifty's to beat back ground attacks. The tracers would ricochet off the ground, but the HE rounds gave off a small orange flash when they hit anything.
If I can find a picture of the case I will post it here. It was definately from WWII, 1944. I took 1000's of pictures and it may show up in one of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The bolded part sounds to me like description of API hit.


In fact data on in-game belting is strange in case of M2 and UB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to my sources US M2 projectiles weights in grams are:
M2 ball 46,01 - 46,79
M33 ball 42,9
M2 AP 45,88 - 46,53
M10 T 41,67
M17 T 47,67
M21 T 45,3
M8 API 42,06
M20 APIT 36,66
M1 I 41,02
M23 I 33,18

None weights 48,5g!

And for UB:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And real weights of soviet projectiles in grams:

B-32 API 48,5 - 49,5
BZT APIT 43,2 - 44,7
MDZ I 44,1 - 45,2

I have no data on soviet HE for UB, but in Yak-1/3 monography I read about HE 12,7mm x 107 projectile.

pres_
09-16-2005, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:

How do you know it wasn't a hispano round? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a really good point here.

Aside from that there are weak points in the pilot's controls - a crude example would be the stick itself being disabled, there go two out of three. It's not all about severing rods/cables.

To the original poster, you must of lead a merry dance, I'd be pissed off too if I'd evaded like that and got taken down with a single lucky hit - or was it 266 unlucky misses http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AlmightyTallest
09-16-2005, 11:24 AM
Good catch Kocur! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We need bigchump back here to clear that up for us. If he knew the color code on the .50cal rounds he had we could find out what they were. I tend to believe Veterans though, an HE round as well as an Incindiary could give off the same orange flash when they strike though.

Good call on the bullet weights as well. Perhaps Oleg could look into that issue as well? I've E-mailed him, but he never responds to me so I don't know if he's even getting my E-mails.

Anyways, good detective work there and it brings up more questions about the ammo belting.

Yak_Ace
09-16-2005, 11:51 AM
Yea! Very good work, Kocur! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
If you additionaly manage to explain us why your crappy P.11c is so "Browning resistant", it will be your best achievement on this forum! When this happen I name you "Omniscient Kocur". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif