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JFC_danger
04-06-2005, 04:40 PM
i am aware that in real life , the wings could take a lot more stress than in the game, EG;-
planes could tip other planes without the wingtip collapsing, but the they would fall off under to much G, i hope this is realised in the patch....... just an observation http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

EnGaurde
04-06-2005, 04:47 PM
hmmm

i can recall reading stories of pilots blacking out, then waking and finding themselves in a screaming dive.

apparently, both feet on the control panel and haul back on the stick with every ounce of strength was common.

aircraft coming back with bent wings is documented.

p51s and spits used to wingtip v1s.

i think there was an incident where one bomber helped another bomber gain alt by wingtipping a dead engine side...?

wings dont bend in the game, so yes, possibly there was a little more lee-way.

although ive never snapped wings off in the game, even when my zero porpoised in a high speed dive recently.

Blackdog5555
04-06-2005, 09:01 PM
I saw a F4u crash land (video) and do a cartwheel with its wings. I bumped a plane on taxi in the game and exploded. LOL. Numbers do need a little tweaking.

jarink
04-06-2005, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
i think there was an incident where one bomber helped another bomber gain alt by wingtipping a dead engine side...? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never heard of that, do you remember any more about the incident that may help track it down?

It seems nearly impossible since the 'supporting' wing would actually cause loss of lift if it were slid under another wing. To explain, the air going over the top of the 'supporting' wing would be moving at roughly the same speed as the air over the top of the 'supported' wing. This is the same air that is moving under the 'supported' wing. The 'supported' wing would therefore experience the same air density top and bottom, which is exactly not how an airfoil works. It only works if the air density on top of the wing is less than the air density under the wing.

The 'supporting' wing actually physically supporting enough of the weight of the disabled aircraft to be of help seems a stretch, too, but I guess you never know until you try!

lronSight
04-06-2005, 09:29 PM
Well, not simply loosing lift, but in a sense stalling the outboard wing, and loosing relative control of the aileron for intermittent periods.

Although, I still think that's entirely possible to shoulder that aircraft, the physics involved in that must be more than the basics we all learn :P

EnGaurde
04-06-2005, 10:29 PM
jarink im aware of the bernoulli effect.

That scrubbing of lift from the wing is actually the reason you see those little upright wingtips on later model passenger jets.

Theyre wing fences, as well as reducing drag caused by the votices they block the vortex at higher angles of attack from swirling over the top of the wing and reducing the wings lift by 15 - 20 per cent.

i swear that i read that somewhere, b17s over europe lifting a wingtip to allow the crippled b17 to get over the Dover Cliffs. **** long term memory. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

cant be any less believable than a 109 escorting a near busted b17 straggler back to england now can it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

darkhorizon11
04-07-2005, 12:15 AM
Its modeled opposite actually.

They can't bump or they break into pieces.

But you can dive down at 600kph with bombs and jerk all the way on the stick and keep your wings and tail.

I wouldn't expect much done with this until BoB.

JR_Greenhorn
04-07-2005, 12:22 AM
Weren't most of the cases of V-1 "tipping" not physical contact, but rather the disruption of airflow, similar to what is discussed elsewhere in this thread?

At any rate, such contact would not involve a lot of stress on the wings of either craft.


The reason you can't make contact like that in game is that the damage model is tweaked for collisions to discourage ramming. I would assume this is in the "we won't change it" category.


There is no reason to model "sprung" (yielded) wings in game. The calculations to do it properly would be prohibatively complex, and such an event would be so close to failure it would be pointless. Surely production variances were at work in these cases as well.



According to forumspeak, the reason wings are easy to snap in game vs. real life is that you are not limited to stick input forces that your own strength can muster. That is, through a joystick you are able to move elevators further than if there was realistic amounts of resistance to the movement in the stick.

Mr.Spot
04-07-2005, 12:53 AM
Well, I've never heard of a cow tipping over when it was windy. The again, the survival ratios of pilot that eject at high speed is also very low. Then again, that's just flesh and bone.
Ya, a 0.040" aluminium skin over a thin aluminium frame should be able to take six to seven thousand knots, I recon by the way a rooster ***** into the wind.
I figure NASA calculates it the same way.

F*CKTARDS

Tully__
04-07-2005, 03:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
I saw a F4u crash land (video) and do a cartwheel with its wings. I bumped a plane on taxi in the game and exploded. LOL. Numbers do need a little tweaking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Collision damage modelling is either very CPU intensive or vastly simplified. In this game it tends towards simplified.

@jarink: There's "ground" effect to consider. IIRC correctly I've read somewhere that placing a wingtip under the tip of a nearby aircraft actually slightly increases lift on the other a/c's wing due to this effect. Also if I recall correctly the lower wing had to be slightly leading or trailing the higher wing to get the best lift benefit (I don't recall which).

Of course this might simply be a figment of my aging memory http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bearcat99
04-07-2005, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jarink:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
i think there was an incident where one bomber helped another bomber gain alt by wingtipping a dead engine side...? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never heard of that, do you remember any more about the incident that may help track it down?

It seems nearly impossible since the 'supporting' wing would actually cause _loss of lift_ if it were slid under another wing. To explain, the air going over the top of the 'supporting' wing would be moving at roughly the same speed as the air over the top of the 'supported' wing. This is the same air that is moving under the 'supported' wing. The 'supported' wing would therefore experience the same air density top and bottom, which is exactly not how an airfoil works. It only works if the air density on top of the wing is less than the air density under the wing.

The 'supporting' wing actually physically supporting enough of the weight of the disabled aircraft to be of help seems a stretch, too, but I guess you never know until you try! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have heard about that also..... the bomber thing. I think there was an article in a Flight journal magazine... either that or it was in "The Mighty Eighth" by Gerald Astor. Chuck Yeager used to consistently bring his planes back with a few popped rivets. I think wing stress is modelled somewhat. If you have never broken off wings go into a power dive and just yank on the stick at @700kph.... I notice on the P-51 if you arent carefull pulling out of dives the wings will still break off and if you do too many high G maneuvers they may break off in a relatively mild dive....

Waldo.Pepper
04-07-2005, 03:48 PM
This topic caused me to remember this incident.

Wrong plane.
Wrong War, I know that, but still it is interesting nonetheless.

-----

As Risner and his wingman, Lt. Joe Logan, were leaving the Chinese airfield, the flak caught Joe's fuel tank. Jet fuel and hydraulic fluid spewed out from the wounded Sabre. Robinson instantly decided to try an unprecedented and untried maneuver; he would push the crippled fighter with his, about 60 miles to the UN rescue base on the island of Cho Do. He radioed Joe to shut down his engine. He carefully inserted the nose of his F-86 into the exhaust of Logan's plane and tired to keep the two planes together. The turbulence kept bouncing and separating the two jets, but Risner was able to re-establish contact and guide the powerless plane out over the sea. Near Cho Do, Lt. Logan bailed out, after radioing to Risner, "I'll see you at the base tonight."

From:

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_risner.html

FlakMagnent
04-08-2005, 12:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
This topic caused me to remember this incident.

Wrong plane.
Wrong War, I know that, but still it is interesting nonetheless.

-----

As Risner and his wingman, Lt. Joe Logan, were leaving the Chinese airfield, the flak caught Joe's fuel tank. Jet fuel and hydraulic fluid spewed out from the wounded Sabre. Robinson instantly decided to try an unprecedented and untried maneuver; he would push the crippled fighter with his, about 60 miles to the UN rescue base on the island of Cho Do. He radioed Joe to shut down his engine. He carefully inserted the nose of his F-86 into the exhaust of Logan's plane and tired to keep the two planes together. The turbulence kept bouncing and separating the two jets, but Risner was able to re-establish contact and guide the powerless plane out over the sea. Near Cho Do, Lt. Logan bailed out, after radioing to Risner, "I'll see you at the base tonight."

From:

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_risner.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An incident like this did take place in WW2 on a few occasions. Not only with bombers but also with the many fighters that saw service as well