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jayhall0315
02-23-2009, 02:43 PM
Closing in on 10 months now with IL2 and have generally had alot of fun with the game but a few funny questions remain. My primary one is why would Oleg ever allow external views in IL2 ?

Is this some hold over from earlier sims and he included it because of tradition ? (say, because it began with CFS2 or 3 or something like that)

I can see the need for external views when reviewing Ntrks but other than that, I think it detracts from the experience (and I am not some Full REAL elitist snob, just very curious as to why there would ever be external views).

Any of you long term veterans who know the simming world going back 10 years or more, know why this is ?

montecristo1981
02-23-2009, 03:06 PM
One, if not the most detailed model in the game is the players plane. Not including an external view would kind of ruin that as you would only see the wings..

Likewise with all the ground models, you would never get to see them except in the .5 of a second when you speed past them (or in to them if you havent pulled up on time)

I like the outside views! I like watching my planes in formation, watching the horizon, landscape etc.

xTHRUDx
02-23-2009, 03:22 PM
your veiw on externals is shared by many. As a result, an externals mod was created to allow an external view of ONLY your AC and ONLY while you were on the ground. this is helpful for taxiing and carrier ops.

Schnee9119
02-23-2009, 03:33 PM
The microsoft flight sims were mentioned above, and it must be said, the external views on IL-2 are FAR better than on the microsoft (C)FSs.

But yeah, the external view is useful for taxiing in a tail dragger, and sometimes pin pointing an enemy you can't quite see. Admittedly it is highly unrealistic, and i'm all about the realism in IL-2, but sitting at a table or even in a bed isn't realistic, so it doesn't matter :P.

i get it though

Steven190
02-23-2009, 03:51 PM
Another thing is the game is a 2D world, external views help when things get tight, like taxing, you can not see around the cowl, as mentioned. I usually fly real, but if I am offline, I use the views for a quick look around to get things in perspective.

danjama
02-23-2009, 04:03 PM
Haha the externals in CFS were ridiculous.

I think the question is why NOT include externals? It's a game not real life. You're saying it's like having a racing game with only cockpit view. Or all war games must be first person because they portray life. Quite a narrow view of looking at it. And as said before it is a beautiful game. Why would you download a thousand of the beautiful skins people make if you couldn't see them?!

crucislancer
02-23-2009, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Closing in on 10 months now with IL2 and have generally had alot of fun with the game but a few funny questions remain. My primary one is why would Oleg ever allow external views in IL2 ?

Is this some hold over from earlier sims and he included it because of tradition ? (say, because it began with CFS2 or 3 or something like that)

I can see the need for external views when reviewing Ntrks but other than that, I think it detracts from the experience (and I am not some Full REAL elitist snob, just very curious as to why there would ever be external views).

Any of you long term veterans who know the simming world going back 10 years or more, know why this is ?

The game has scalable difficulty, like most games on the market, including flight sims, and this almost always includes an outside view of sorts. Going back to some of the Janeís games of the 90ís, like ATF, Longbow, or F-15, they all had external views. Heck, even Jet, by SubLOGIC had an external view, and thatís going back more then 20 years. Current games as well, like LOMAC.

Choctaw111
02-23-2009, 04:19 PM
I like looking at my beautiful aircraft (some not so as good looking as others but that's another story). Not for online game play mind you, but it sure is great for offline stuff. Just for admiring it and seeing it in action. Almost like a movie.

Ba5tard5word
02-23-2009, 04:26 PM
You don't need to use it...


If external views were barred, then people would probably complain about it. It's useful for when you're making a movie.

M_Gunz
02-23-2009, 04:37 PM
1 --> They can be turned off. If the server has them off, everyone on it has them off. NO CHEAT.

2 --> When viewing tracks they are indispensable. Want to improve your gunnery? Review your tracks!

WTE_Galway
02-23-2009, 04:39 PM
I am told that every time you use an external view God kills a kitten.

Stiletto-
02-23-2009, 04:43 PM
This is a game

Obviously it is trying to be as realistic as possible, I enjoy flying online on closed pit servers. It's the only way to use semi-realistic tactics. But how do you expect someone who has never flown a realistic sim to come in here and expect to taxi, find out where he is going, identifying allied and enemy aircraft, not get bored.. etc.. Might as well turn off all icons, and make prop pitch and mixture mandatory as well.

When it comes down to it, this is a product that is sold to make money, not a full on military simulator. If an inexperienced pilot was told to buy CFS3 before '46, and get good at that until he is ready to fly in a hardcore sim, would he really feel like spending the extra money then? The realistic hardcore crowd is alot more niche than you think. It's such a small market that IL-2 would not be a success if it was modeled in that way . The people that come on this forum and are skilled enough to fly the way you are implying are a very small percentage of the people who bought this game.

Btw, I play a racing sim that does not have any external views available while driving, only in replays. It's in my avatar. This is a different story than IL-2 though.

dashman
02-23-2009, 04:56 PM
I like looking down on bombers I'm escorting and watching them in formation.

I also am never quite sure where I might be in the takeoff lineup - a quick look in external in back of me and then it's back to cockpit for takeoff.

And then, as was said, it's a 2D game and some compensation for that is not a big deal.

jamesblonde1979
02-23-2009, 05:12 PM
I love the external views, apart from giving you a nice look at all the pretty aeroplanes I use them as a recon photo.

If I have to do a ground attack mission then it seems reasonable that some intelligence would have been gathered on the target if it is a HQ or an airfield or something so I use the static camera/target view to plan my attack.

M_Gunz
02-23-2009, 07:14 PM
There wouldn't be any cool IL2 movies without externals.

Why is there unlimited ammo, invulnerable planes, no wind, no torque, no stalls options?
Only someone blind to anything but full switch would ask such questions.
They should have to buy 100+ copies just to play at all because THAT is what full switch only version would cost.

baronWastelan
02-23-2009, 07:32 PM
Why does UBI let people post dumb questions in this forum?

baronWastelan
02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
Here's an idea for your next post: Why am I allowed to fly again after I've been killed?

SeaFireLIV
02-23-2009, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
your veiw on externals is shared by many. As a result, an externals mod was created to allow an external view of ONLY your AC and ONLY while you were on the ground. this is helpful for taxiing and carrier ops.

Whaat? I never knew this! It`s perfect for what I want. I like looking at my plane in outside view but always did it on the ground until up in the air.

But I do understand why Oleg included it. It`s an optional choice for those who simply want to fly their aircraft in 3rd person or just look at their fave plane flying. While I hate 3rd person flying, shooting or gaming, I can understand the wish to have a quick look at your Spit or 109 zooming thru the skies.

crucislancer
02-23-2009, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by baronWastelan:
Why does UBI let people post dumb questions in this forum?

Perhaps for the same reason they let people like yourself post irrelevant & rude crap?

WTE_Galway
02-23-2009, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by baronWastelan:
Here's an idea for your next post: Why am I allowed to fly again after I've been killed?

I play DiD a lot offline. Even some online wars are Dead is Dead.

However most DiD players still moderate it a bit -- for example quitting a campaign after 80 missions because a random piece of another plane hit by flak happens to spin your way and take off your wing is probably a bit fanatical.

jayhall0315
02-23-2009, 10:11 PM
I was not asking to be a snob. Just curious for more experienced simmers to chime in and get me up to date on the facts. Many folks have made good relevant points (like movies, carrier ops, formations flying). I guess, what I wanted to say was that it surprised me when I started with Hyperlobby, how many open pit and external view servers there were. When I started out in week one, I guess I was silly or something, but I left everything on (Full Real) in the QMB, because, LOL, I was sure that was how all the HL servers would be when I finally logged on to face other humans.

I guess I just like the added difficulty of trying to look over the dashboard to line up that perfect shot (which never comes) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xTHRUDx
02-23-2009, 10:45 PM
try the full difficult servers instead. also hyperlobby lies about server attendance. many people connect via direct IP, ASE, or Xfire. All other game browsers will show correct server attendance unlike HL. <shakes fist at HL>

KG66_Spitz
02-24-2009, 03:40 AM
Spits v 109's for full real or if youi are interested in the PTO Zekes v wildcats, only servers you need imho, co-ops and squad wars excepted

na85
02-24-2009, 03:41 AM
External views are also handy for administrating servers.

Easy to watch for rule violations if you can observe via externals.

tagTaken2
02-24-2009, 03:42 AM
I love external views. Love the flyby.
Now that 6dof is possible, I can see that closed pit is finally reasonably realistic, but a lot of effort goes into skins/damage modelling, so enjoy.

DKoor
02-24-2009, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Closing in on 10 months now with IL2 and have generally had alot of fun with the game but a few funny questions remain. My primary one is why would Oleg ever allow external views in IL2 ?

Is this some hold over from earlier sims and he included it because of tradition ? (say, because it began with CFS2 or 3 or something like that)

I can see the need for external views when reviewing Ntrks but other than that, I think it detracts from the experience (and I am not some Full REAL elitist snob, just very curious as to why there would ever be external views).

Any of you long term veterans who know the simming world going back 10 years or more, know why this is ? Because it's a game, and having more options is always best way to go?
Because people who do the skins can easily check out their work in game?
Because of various esthetic reasons, like making movies/clips from game etc.?
Learning how the physics work in game, you do maneuver and watch it from outside, tracks etc.?

And I'm sure there could be many more answers why.

Bearcat99
02-24-2009, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
your veiw on externals is shared by many. As a result, an externals mod was created to allow an external view of ONLY your AC and ONLY while you were on the ground. this is helpful for taxiing and carrier ops.

Whaat? I never knew this! It`s perfect for what I want. I like looking at my plane in outside view but always did it on the ground until up in the air.

But I do understand why Oleg included it. It`s an optional choice for those who simply want to fly their aircraft in 3rd person or just look at their fave plane flying. While I hate 3rd person flying, shooting or gaming, I can understand the wish to have a quick look at your Spit or 109 zooming thru the skies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's called the Hotkeys mod... you can set it for various levels of views... but the host has to have externals off and the host has to be running the mod. A line has to be added to the missionscript.. if you do not have the mod you will have no externals at all.. if yiou do have the mod you will have externals within the limitations set by the host. I posted about this in the "Why some people like mods" thread quite some time ago.


Originally posted by tagTaken2:
I love external views. Love the flyby.
Now that 6dof is possible, I can see that closed pit is finally reasonably realistic, but a lot of effort goes into skins/damage modelling, so enjoy.

I do too... I also like to watch the action after I go down...




Originally posted by DKoor:
Because it's a game, and having more options is always best way to go?
Because people who do the skins can easily check out their work in game?
Because of various esthetic reasons, like making movies/clips from game etc.?
Learning how the physics work in game, you do maneuver and watch it from outside, tracks etc.?

And I'm sure there could be many more answers why.

+1


The bottom line is... the more options in the sim the more people will buy the sim. If this sim were not as scalable as it is many people arrived at their current preferred level of scalability in increments. There are guys herer who now fly only in full switch servers... but they started out with open pits, externals and icons.

I also find that if your goal is to have a good time... you will be able to do that, for a while at least.. no matter what settings you choose. I like the realism of the sim.. and just because I prefer a closed pit, tight icon with external views & speedbar server doesnt diminish that fact or make one who prefers the full switch server's choice any more "valid" or "realistic" than mine.

Xiolablu3
02-24-2009, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by baronWastelan:
Here's an idea for your next post: Why am I allowed to fly again after I've been killed?

Hehe I think this sums up the question very well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bienenbaer
02-24-2009, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by tagTaken2:
I love external views. Love the flyby.
Now that 6dof is possible, I can see that closed pit is finally reasonably realistic, but a lot of effort goes into skins/damage modelling, so enjoy.

I believe that nails it down neatly. Only inside view is not as real as some people think, because you cannot move your head in the cockpit as one could do in real life, and you cannot taxi with cabin open. So you have a comparatively limited view.

I admit to use F3 for the head over the shoulder view, even if you call me a noob. On the other hand I never used F5/F6. To me this is a good compromise for off-line play.

I would like to have more options for communicating with friendly AI, that is asking more detailed questions then just "Am I free?", but e.g. "Is bandit gaining on me", "What's his course?", "How many and type?". Then I would gladly do away with F3.

RPMcMurphy
02-24-2009, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
You don't need to use it...


If external views were barred, then people would probably complain about it. It's useful for when you're making a movie.
Exactly.
If this idea was posted over in the Movie Makers forum they would have probably told the author to just choke himself.

-HH- Beebop
02-24-2009, 08:29 AM
Every Saturday night for the last 4 years I have hosted a direct IP co-op server. I run a closed cockpit, (very) limited icons server but I have always left the external view on. Why?
First, those who fly my server are honorable enough not to use the externals as a "cheat".
Second, once shot down or landed the pilots can continue to watch and enjoy the action and comment/congratulate a good kill. Again honor dictates that no information be given those in flight as to enemy air or ground locations.
Only once did the claim of using externals as a cheat come up but it was soon rectified when that person chose not to fly my server with those settings.

IMO honorable pilots can fly with externals left on if they follow the above guidelines.

Choice is one of the things that has helped make this sim such a success. It's about having fun, something that Oleg realized from the beginning.

T_O_A_D
02-24-2009, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by -HH- Beebop:
Every Saturday night for the last 4 years I have hosted a direct IP co-op server. I run a closed cockpit, (very) limited icons server but I have always left the external view on. Why?
First, those who fly my server are honorable enough not to use the externals as a "cheat".
Second, once shot down or landed the pilots can continue to watch and enjoy the action and comment/congratulate a good kill. Again honor dictates that no information be given those in flight as to enemy air or ground locations.
Only once did the claim of using externals as a cheat come up but it was soon rectified when that person chose not to fly my server with those settings.

IMO honorable pilots can fly with externals left on if they follow the above guidelines.

Choice is one of the things that has helped make this sim such a success. It's about having fun, something that Oleg realized from the beginning.

IIRC as host if you are having a problem with a pilot not being honorable, you can check the log, (if you have it turned on) and spot his activity. It will log him changing his seat, sort of an odd occurrence if he is in a single seat fighter. If he's in a multy seat then there is no way to tell. IIRC

We should test this some Saturday.

Bo_Nidle
02-24-2009, 09:11 AM
For me the external views, flybys are one of the most appealing things about this sim. I don't use it in the fight but en route to and from it lets you take in the scenery and generally appreciate just how nice this sim still looks.

The fly-bys are one of the most appealing views for me and add to the sense of drama.

If I want to "convert" a newcomer to the sim I just put on a track and go to the flyby view. Most people are highly impressed.

I can understand online players disabling it but it's nice to have the choice.

buddye1
02-24-2009, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by baronWastelan:
Why does UBI let people post dumb questions in this forum?

I USUALLY DO NOT COMMENT ON POST LIKE THIS ONE.

The botton line is that our forum community would be better off without posts like these.

It would ungrade how our players perceive this community and the maturity of it's posters.

SeaFireLIV
02-24-2009, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by -HH- Beebop:
Why?
First, those who fly my server are honorable enough not to use the externals as a "cheat".
Second, once shot down or landed the pilots can continue to watch and enjoy the action and comment/congratulate a good kill. Again honor dictates that no information be given those in flight as to enemy air or ground locations.
.

Well agreed. If flying with a trusted squad then there`s no problem with outside views as no one will use it to cheat, but on open servers it`s not the same. I rememeber in the early days a lot of people were using the outside views to have an unfair awareness of what was going on, like a UFO. You could never catch them off guard.

If on open servers i`ll only fly if outside views are off.

Bearcat99
02-25-2009, 11:44 AM
What I find amusing is that some of you would call using a feature that is enabled on a given server a cheat.

So what if someone uses externals to look around... if you are using the stock sim and you have externals on... and someone looks around.. how is that a cheatunless only one person has the option. The ont thing that has always kiond of amused me & ticked me off about this community is that many of us are so quick to use the term cheat.. Trim on a slider was a cheat... then tere was the sonar cheat... and the prop pitch cheat... the TIR cheat..the http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Not to be flip or anything but dag gone man...

T least now we have the option to fine tune views...

jayhall0315
02-25-2009, 04:02 PM
The only thing that is a cheat to me, are the illicit mods (cant say more due to Ubi's policies but most know to what I am referring). If everyone on a server has external views or open cockpits, then there is no way that I consider that a cheat.

I am just amazed at how quickly the allies managed to steal from the Russians that amazing technology from the dead alien spacecraft after the Tunguska Event of 1908 and fully reverse engineer it by the early 1930s. The alien derived technology that allows cockpits to suddenly morph invisible and also allows for tiny nanobot cameras to continually monitor planes and give external camera shots is truly amazing science. Most WWII warbird veterans wont talk about this amazing tech, but if you dig deep, the archives can be revealing. Its just a shame that those German spies got to the same information as well, just as the allies were prefecting the new alien derived technologies.

Really happy that Oleg did his homework and got this clandestine part of WWII aviation correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hehe

Jay

waffen-79
02-25-2009, 04:36 PM
I won't lie to you guys

Most of the time I spend in IL2 is in the Skies of Valour server...

-Realistic settings (except externals ON)

-Realistic planesets (except in whatif missions, stills very rasonable)

-MODS enabled

But if most of my squad is only we are so in the Spits vs 109

it all DEPENDS on how many time I have to spend, as for me, full switch are slower paced

jayhall0315
02-25-2009, 04:47 PM
Since I saw your post Waffen, that brings up a good point. I am no WWII aviation historian, so I would like to know if the Waffen SS had their own air wing (or perhaps it was merged with the Luftwaffe) and if so, what types of fighters did they use ?

Thanks, Jay

waffen-79
02-25-2009, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Since I saw your post Waffen, that brings up a good point. I am no WWII aviation historian, so I would like to know if the Waffen SS had their own air wing (or perhaps it was merged with the Luftwaffe) and if so, what types of fighters did they use ?

Thanks, Jay

Heey Jay mate

a SS luftwaffe branch? NOT that I know of, honestly

also my rank in the Squad I belong is: Major, and that rank didn't exist in the SS either

But I'll look into it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

point is, Waffen is my nick because it means "weapons", besides I'm not even german

regards

Aaron_GT
02-25-2009, 05:21 PM
One valid use of externals in a DF or coop server is for bombers because gunners and other crew in the game seem to be incapable of speech apart from the IL-2 gunner, and he only comments on your flying. So you need to use externals (even if the fields of view are too great) to make up for this. Well in theory you can hop between positions, but it's not ideal. Even then if you are on a bomb run even externals don't help.

na85
02-26-2009, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
The only thing that is a cheat to me, are the illicit mods (cant say more due to Ubi's policies but most know to what I am referring). If everyone on a server has external views or open cockpits, then there is no way that I consider that a cheat.

I am just amazed at how quickly the allies managed to steal from the Russians that amazing technology from the dead alien spacecraft after the Tunguska Event of 1908 and fully reverse engineer it by the early 1930s. The alien derived technology that allows cockpits to suddenly morph invisible and also allows for tiny nanobot cameras to continually monitor planes and give external camera shots is truly amazing science. Most WWII warbird veterans wont talk about this amazing tech, but if you dig deep, the archives can be revealing. Its just a shame that those German spies got to the same information as well, just as the allies were prefecting the new alien derived technologies.

Really happy that Oleg did his homework and got this clandestine part of WWII aviation correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hehe

Jay

That explains the propulsion system on the I-185 Klownenwagon

F19_Orheim
02-26-2009, 03:19 AM
even if on myself only use no-external, this game has as mentioned ealier, scalable difficulty settings for all to enjoy..
My dad for example, is 73 and loves to take a plane for a spin, but he only flies external with rear biew.. he can't handle internal views and that's a good enough reason for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tully__
02-26-2009, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by baronWastelan:
Why does UBI...
Out of line http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

All you others, if you see this sort of thing and don't like it, let a mod know rather than inflaming the situation.

As for the original question, it's been covered already but:
Screenshots
Enjoying the view
Movies
Because just like in real life, beginner pilots can find it really hard to make sense of landmarks from a cockpit

jayhall0315
02-26-2009, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jayhall0315:
The only thing that is a cheat to me, are the illicit mods (cant say more due to Ubi's policies but most know to what I am referring). If everyone on a server has external views or open cockpits, then there is no way that I consider that a cheat.

I am just amazed at how quickly the allies managed to steal from the Russians that amazing technology from the dead alien spacecraft after the Tunguska Event of 1908 and fully reverse engineer it by the early 1930s. The alien derived technology that allows cockpits to suddenly morph invisible and also allows for tiny nanobot cameras to continually monitor planes and give external camera shots is truly amazing science. Most WWII warbird veterans wont talk about this amazing tech, but if you dig deep, the archives can be revealing. Its just a shame that those German spies got to the same information as well, just as the allies were prefecting the new alien derived technologies.

Really happy that Oleg did his homework and got this clandestine part of WWII aviation correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hehe

Jay

That explains the propulsion system on the I-185 Klownenwagon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aliens have come to this planet before and are here now. I know this because the pattern in my grandmother's cornfield told me so. They use their god-like technology to further three objectives here on Earth:

1 - Inspecting our genitals and poop holes.
2 - Uplifting and restoring to life the bodies of all members of the Heaven's Gate Cult who were unjustly driven by society to mass suicide.
3 - Helping Oleg to enable open cockpits and external views in IL2 along with allowing the Spit 25lb and I-185 M71 to exist in the game.

I am stocking up on tinfoil hats as we speak. They may get you... hehe, but my hat will protect me !

Now, to my bunker......

il2battle
02-26-2009, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:

Because just like in real life, beginner pilots can find it really hard to make sense of landmarks from a cockpit

+1

This is how I learn to basic fly, takeoff and land - from outside rearwiew - ,if my only option would been just fly in cockpit, I think I give up from start.

I've play orginal IL, but begin real learn after FB game out and been hooked ever since, but it's only because I had options to choose to make game fun and easier to learn for me.

I think the point is that you can select how real the game is and make it to be fun to play for you.
If you want hardcore you can select that, if you want little bit easier you have option that too.

I still use rearwiew alot, especially when cruising, like to look skins and maps and everything around me and still see things that amaze me.
Although I fly with every plane - not fly online at all - so I should master every cockpit perfectly, if cockpit would be only option and there's no speedbar or other things that help.

I silent now.

LEBillfish
02-26-2009, 05:53 AM
External views in and of themselves are NOT bad things.......

To be frank, if all you were ever able to see of the sim is what you can from your cockpit, not only would the sim not be a 1/10th as successful as it is, yet there would be a quarter the objects, few skins of any detail (why you really can't get a good look at them?), terrain would be less detailed, on and on......as quite frankly you just can't see it.


What the true issue with external views is....Is not that you can look externally, yet more the fact that "F6-External Padlock" totally destroys any form of realistic play. F2 even though touted as bad is really for the most part harmless without F6. In combat, go F2 (outside of your plane) and try and look around to check 6, or view other aircrafts positions.....It really doesn't work out and is very impracticle, in fact more disorientating then anything......However, using F6, it becomes a rediculously invaluable and UNFAIR sim supplied tool that takes all realistic combat away.

F6 is why when you sneak into range being careful to stay in their blindspots suddenly when close they break......F6 is why in a no icon server suddenly billy bob can spot and lock onto every enemy plane their is. F6 is why you see most who consistantly get 5+ kills in a dogfight, and I mean every single time never a scratch to them....F6 is why when used with F2 your opponents can tell your exact position, altitude, and so on in relation to themselves even when 200km away....etc..

It's not externals, nor is it padlock (F4 where in an icon server you get the triangle around the plane locked on)....It's not really even F2 that lets you see external views to every aircraft and object..............It is F6 that makes "externals" so bad.

The Bomb Bay Doors Plus mod eliminates F6 via allowing certain external views, and restricting others when using "no externals setting".....It would be nice if it could be further altered to allow for all F2 views so you could see cameras and enemy aircraft (as it is nice when rtb'g to see just how tore up the enemy is)......Yet I suspect the reason it may not be is that then F6 would be re-enabled.

If a mod could be made that simply eliminated F6 then the online community as a whole would come one step closer to all flying the same........The eye candy is great........F6 is the "sim" destroyer.

K2

SeaFireLIV
02-26-2009, 08:52 AM
Billfish puts me right. It`s F2 with F6. Y`know that`s what I meant, F2 with F6 is serious cheating. I was shocked when i first discovered it.

Swivet
02-26-2009, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Closing in on 10 months now with IL2 and have generally had alot of fun with the game but a few funny questions remain. My primary one is why would Oleg ever allow external views in IL2 ?

Is this some hold over from earlier sims and he included it because of tradition ? (say, because it began with CFS2 or 3 or something like that)

I can see the need for external views when reviewing Ntrks but other than that, I think it detracts from the experience (and I am not some Full REAL elitist snob, just very curious as to why there would ever be external views).

Any of you long term veterans who know the simming world going back 10 years or more, know why this is ?


I understand where your coming from with this. The whole "sim realistic" aspect..yeh i get it.....I think Oleg wanted to keep the game/sim, what have you......fun. No sense in making skins for wings only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...I like the different views it adds another level of emmersion for me..IMHO

danjama
02-26-2009, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Billfish puts me right. It`s F2 with F6. Y`know that`s what I meant, F2 with F6 is serious cheating. I was shocked when i first discovered it.

Yea i agree but isnt there a no padlock option for servers? I'm sure there was! If not there should be!

LEBillfish
02-26-2009, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Billfish puts me right. It`s F2 with F6. Y`know that`s what I meant, F2 with F6 is serious cheating. I was shocked when i first discovered it.

Yea i agree but isnt there a no padlock option for servers? I'm sure there was! If not there should be! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Padlock (F4), is not the same thing as external padlock or F6.

Padlock F4 for enemy aircraft OR all aircraft with no icons, Shift+F4 for friendly aircraft, F5/Shift+F5 for ground targets friend/foe respectively, are ALL purely internal to the cockpit things.......and in my opinion VERY well done in this sim as they can be easily lost, and if abused makes you a target drone your SA not used.......To use these you must be internal to the cockpit, and looking directly at your intended target to lock on......Think of it as a poor man's AI TIR, really no advantage and a disadvantage if abused.

F6 (enemy aircraft external padlock), SHift+F6 (friendly aircraft) and F7/Shift+F7 for ground targets ARE the problem......WHen clicking F6, you will immediately be taken out of the cockpit to an external view, looking roughly 20m from your plane, through it to the closest enemy aircraft and will keep that view as long as you want......In kind if you keep hitting F6 it will cycle that view to every other enemy aircraft in range....So in a sense telling you where everything else is in relation to you from a third person aspect.

Naturally you can see how many would use this to "cheat"....Be it checking impossible to see spots in their 6, seeing where all aircraft are even in clouds and other places they can't see. Able to counter their manuevers with ease....Yet it only gets worse......You can also using F2 abuse F6 further.....Press Shift F2 getting the "external view" of a friendly aircraft even a thousand miles away, and then hit F6 and suddenly you get a view like above through that other plane, and lock onto the enemy aircraft......Now at that point, as long as you don't F6 another near you, you will keep that lock shifting you to an external view of your plane, showing the direction of that enemy.....no matter how far away.

In kind if you F6 a plane and it escapes, as long as you don't lock on another you can track it from 100's of miles off.....Lastly the above can be used Ctrl+F2 (external of an enemy plane) then F6 again giving you that long range radar.

F6 is the problem.....Not F2 as it alone is clumsy to cheat with locating others (F2 them then look at the terrain then try and find it on a map)...In kind it would be rediculously hard to cheat with F2 like F6 in a dogfight....

So in the end it is F6, "external padlock" that is the problem.......Not F4 "internal padlock"......The term padlock often having many confuse the two.

K2

Von_Rat
02-26-2009, 10:19 AM
jeez, this game aint that hard to learn without ww or external views.

i flew more than a year and got pretty dam good even before i even knew such things existed in the game.

i can see externals use for movie making and as billifish said its kinda hard to cheat with.

and you could make a argument that ww was usefull pre 6dof. after 6dof imo theres no excuse for it.

but the other stuff is totally unnecessary even for a beginner. well maybe a small child or someone really old.

Woke_Up_Dead
02-26-2009, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So in the end it is F6, "external padlock" that is the problem.
K2

This is an issue only in servers that allow external views, correct? You can't use this trick in a full-switch server?

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-26-2009, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
your veiw on externals is shared by many. As a result, an externals mod was created to allow an external view of ONLY your AC and ONLY while you were on the ground. this is helpful for taxiing and carrier ops.

I heard about this mod and it sounds fantastic. Is it a server enforced mod when running 4.09 and the unified installer.

BTW Oleg included externals because it appeals to all and of course you can have them eliminated by choosing the correct server.

I dont know of any sim that has not included externals so why should IL2 be any different.

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-26-2009, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So in the end it is F6, "external padlock" that is the problem.
K2

This is an issue only in servers that allow external views, correct? You can't use this trick in a full-switch server? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct.

lesterhawksby
02-26-2009, 01:49 PM
Offline, I think externals are great. I can use them to see when the AI in front of me in the runway queue has taken off, rather than having to twist my plane 'round 45 degrees to see it over the engine (unrealistic; surely I should be told when to go by the tower, or a chap on the ground waving frantically at me to get a move on). I can use them after I've landed to see how big a hole the flak made in my tail, and how far out the flaps were when they jammed while I was acting like an idiot. And airborne I can use them to ogle my bird ;-)

Online, well... online play was not so popular when this started!* So I doubt they lost much sleep over the possibility that a large subculture might arise, enjoying playing in third person view. (Perish the thought!). I may not personally wish to, but then there are servers for that too.

*Neither were trackIRs, or large monitors, and I'm fairly sure I didn't have a throttle quadrant or analogue trim then either...