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View Full Version : What the heck has happened to the P-47?



ShVAK
11-14-2004, 01:08 PM
Before one considers this another P-47 whine thread, let it be known that I was not awaiting the release of PF, but now that I've tried it I think that it greatly adds toward and overall improves this game. Good work guys.

Notwithstanding related links prior, but since the last patch and the release of Pacific Fighters (PF), the already undermodelled P-47 takes another kicking:

1. 8x 50 cal damage (old news), but 6x 50 cals seem to deliver the same damage.

2. Since the last patch, the D25 now climbs mildly better than the D10 model, but both are still brutaly slow in cruise speed at low altitude, and all models now seem to be nerfed at the 10000m mark. Zoom climb still seems poor too however.

3. The P-47 and the Corsair share the same basic engine, but the Corsair gets a 3-stage supercharger (manual adjust in the game) while the P-47 still has none.

4. The 13' Hamilton Standard propellor seems to work better on the Hellcat and Corsair, than on the Jug (which seems to be lacking one - also noting the 3-blade vice 4-blade differential). The lack of proper propellor modelling on the Jug (D25 anyway) is now more noticeable.

5. I'm not keeping my fingers crossed for the P-47N, but it would be nice.

In essence, this (whine) thread is not trying to make the Jug the best fighter here, but only give it what it deserves, in accordance with what history tells us.

PS: for discussion - should a Hellcat easily outfly a Jug at 10000m, as it does in this game?

Anyway - good job on giving us the Pacific Fighter product and the ability to merge both games.

LEXX_Luthor
11-14-2004, 05:37 PM
pass the wine jug

JuGG http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-14-2004, 06:53 PM
And if you noticed the high speed elevator response it once had is now porked.

p1ngu666
11-14-2004, 07:32 PM
p47 has turbo, no supercharger switch needed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jug has shorter blades, still 12foot or something tiny, corsair abit less tiny at 13foot

dunno about the rest :/

SkyChimp
11-14-2004, 07:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShVAK:

3. The P-47 and the Corsair share the same basic engine, but the Corsair gets a 3-stage supercharger (manual adjust in the game) while the P-47 still has none.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-47 shouldn't.

The Hellcat and Corsair had a mechanical auxiliary stage supercharger that required manual shifting between neutral, low and high gear. Thus it's controllable in PF.

The P-47's auxiliary unit was the turbosupercharger. Through a linkage on the throttle quadrant and a control unit on the firewall, the amount of exhaust gas delivered to the turbine was controlled by way of a wastegate. When low power was desired, the wastegate vented off exhaust gas. When more power was needed, more exhaust gas was piped to the turbine. This was all automatic and was dependent on the power desired. Since it was automatic, there is no control for it in PF.

PF is correct in this regard.

WOLFMondo
11-15-2004, 02:54 AM
I don't really agree tbh, up high theres no other plane I'd rather take, being outdlown by a hellcat at 10,000m? Are you sure your flying a jug??!?

Compared to 1.22 the jug now is a dream to fly.

WWMaxGunz
11-15-2004, 03:26 AM
Are you sure you're using all 8 guns or just using the trigger for 4?
What can I say, you don't know about a lot else of the Jug?

WOLFMondo
11-15-2004, 08:48 AM
To be honest it sounds like someones flying it way to close to the deck. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ShVAK
11-15-2004, 09:47 AM
Please gents, I know quite a bit about the Jug in reality, in its historical context, use in this game, and also about its automatic supercharger. I did not know that the Corsair/Hellcat had manual boost, thereby formulating my (incorrect) reference - thx Skychimp.

No I don't try to fly on the deck, my joystick does not fire 4 guns vice 8, and yes the Hellcat will outfly the P-47 at altitude.

I was looking for expert advice and support relating the P-47 flaws towards this game, and not to reception of ambiquious comments from an uninformed peanut gallery.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
11-15-2004, 10:12 AM
nothing wrong with the Jug ,after 2.04 it became a dream to fly and is superior against most axis a/c past 7k and the P47 can outturn any FW190 at all altitudes but depends on the pilot for the bigger part.

yesterday i had a few fights against A6's and Dora 's online at 5k and i must say that flying the P47 at that alt is pretty easy ,normally im in a FW but i find the P47 simply superior at medium and high altitude

WWMaxGunz
11-15-2004, 12:55 PM
Uninformed Peanut Gallery?? Who TH are you?

You knew all about the the P-47 turbo yet ask about shift points?

You ask about the 13' Hamilton Standard Prop on the Jug?
Here, Curtiss Electric Prop and Mag Check procedures for the P-47.
http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/pursuit/section3.htm
right at the top of the page.
Curtiss, not Hamilton. Not 13' either. 12 foot, 4 blade.

Now about the guns trigger. The normal primary guns trigger for the
sim will only fire 4 of the P-47 MG's. The other 4 use the cannon
trigger. Unless you have assigned a button or key to fire MG's and
cannon at the same time (I did) you don't get all 8. Not knowing if
you knew that, I asked. Guess it's a nutty question, I know I got a
nutty answer. Besides, if 4 .50's is the same as 6 then that's even
farther off than 6 being like 8.

Seeing as how you provided so much actual data with your post, like
how fast it flies down low as opposed to how fast it should... I
guess I should have spotted you for the ex-spurt you are and figured
you had all the angles covered there.

ShVAK
11-15-2004, 05:41 PM
It was a simple request - to comment on accuracy. Most Jugs used one of 3 props historically, not just to the 2 referred. B-models and up used a 12' 2" (not 4") Curtis Electric prop. Commencing with the D-22 and becoming standard on the D-25 to D27 models was the 13' 1 7/8" Hamilton Standard. Post D-27 was a modified version of the old Curtis prop. Or so my dozen-ish P-47 specific books tell me. There will always be exceptions.

Back to reference on the Hellcat. Mock combat was flown between a P-47B and Hellcat (model unknown) by test pilot (proficient on both machines) Corkey Meyer and friend. The Jug could outrun the Hellcat at altitude, because the Hellcat's mechanical supercharger was not as efficient, therein the Hellcat's maximum power decreased with pressure altitude while the Jug's did not. To quote:

"The Hellcat's 3-speed mechanical supercharger (Skychimp correct) showed a consistent power drop-off as its altitude increased; this was because of the power loss caused by the high friction of its 2-stage, multiple-gear air compression system. At 10,000', this system could produce only 1900 hp and at 25,000', only 1750. This difference in available power above 5000' (not metres) gave the P-47B a 54mph top speed advantage over the Hellcat."

Now in the game we don't have a P-47B nor an unknown Hellcat model, but one could presume some consistency with the later models of each aircraft given to us in the game. This is not the case - the Hellcat seems to prevail at all altitudes in online play - in both speed and manouever, (with the latter handling item being correct however).

You want actual data from this game? Depends on the map, fuel load, etc, as different figures arise. Since this game cannot accurately track manifold pressure, the point is somewhat moot anyway. If you want an honest opinion, talk to =353=MONROEQ in Hyperlobby. Now in his 80's, he flew P-47s and P-51s in WW2 and he will be willing to discuss various issues with you.

My end point here is that since the 2.04 patch, the P-47 in the game has been nerfed somewhat. Having flown it almost entirely for the past two years, I have based my "ex-spurt" comments on this.

Vipez-
11-16-2004, 02:32 AM
Atleast the turning ability has changed a lot.. A Jug can now equally turnfight with 190 / 109 for two to three full 360 turns, which was never possible before.. or maybe this belongs to the category of all planes getting such neutral turning ability without stalling.. heck, yesterday flying online I couldn't stall the Jug a single time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

WOLFMondo
11-16-2004, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShVAK:
My end point here is that since the 2.04 patch, the P-47 in the game has been nerfed somewhat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't see this, im no expert on the jug but I've flown it almost non stop for the last year and seen its changes over the patches and with PF 3.00 it seems there is no difference between that and the 2.04 Jug apart from it seems to overheat allot less at altitude, so much so no rads are needed, it also seems to retain energy better. Its purely anecdotal but yesterday I managed to outclimb a Ki84 then outrun it in D27 on warclouds PTO, starting at 4000m and ending up a 9100m when the Ki84 pilot gave up the chase.

I'd like to see why you think it can be outperformed by a Hellcat at 10,000m the Jug really shines at that height. Got tracks?

Takata_
11-16-2004, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
Atleast the turning ability has changed a lot.. A Jug can now equally turnfight with 190 / 109 for two to three full 360 turns, which was never possible before... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmm... nothing new here: previously in 2.04, Jug was a better turnfighter than any 190s from the ground to stratosphere. It was also possible to turnfight with 109 at high/medium speed and to outurn them at high altitude.

I don't feel it changed from 2.04 and maybe the problem it's not Jug's FM but F6F one.

Diablo310th
11-16-2004, 06:54 AM
guys...I have flown religiously teh Jug from the beginning. I've seen and lived with all teh changes good and bad. In 2.04 the Jug flew with a light feel. Now in PF it flies heavier. I'm not whining..I love teh way it flies now..it jsut seems to be heavier. Elevator control at high speed is definately slower now. Zoom climb is tons better. I'm not to sure about energy retention tho. I've been told it's me not teh FM but it does seem to lose energy quicker. But tehn Sparx says that is me. LOL

WOLFMondo
11-16-2004, 08:50 AM
I'd say its harder to loose energy, maybe its just me but I feel I have to start landing approaches further out and come in at a shallower angle in the P47 now.

Fehler
11-16-2004, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
But tehn Sparx says that is me. LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eye wheel roxxor ur jug in my Zero!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Diablo310th
11-16-2004, 11:05 AM
LOL Fehler...watch it. Remember..I recorded all of Sparx's tricks in flying last night. I'll be King of the Hill now...owning all Zekes, Zeros, and Ki's. LOLOLOLOL

VonHeide
11-16-2004, 11:23 AM
You better watch out Diabler, Once my 109G10 makes its triumphant reappearance to WC44+ you'll be crying into your keyboard jus' like ole' times!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Enjoy your time with me flying red while you can cuz soon joo boxxxorz will b roxxxzored http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Love
Heide

Aaron_GT
11-16-2004, 04:51 PM
" 8x 50 cal damage (old news), but 6x 50 cals seem to deliver the same damage."

It's a fairly similar number of guns (33% more). More than this, if your firing solution is poor a few extra hits in places that are not critical won't make a huge amount of difference. If your firing solution is good then 6 guns and 8 guns can both cause critical damage. And on top of this if you are out of convergence then because 8 guns tend to be slightly more spread out than 6 if you have relative roll to the target then a greater proportion of the rounds of 8 guns may be missing. On the other hand you have more chance of hitting something critical, but the increased chance of this does not increases linearly with the increase in the number of guns. Basically you have diminishing returns as you add more guns and the added effect of the extra two guns might be hard to notice when just playing a few missions even if it was statistically significant in WW2 when scaled across hundreds of engagements.

VW-IceFire
11-16-2004, 06:33 PM
Let me say I've been flying the Jug since patch 1.01 or something along those lines. That was even when the machine guns caused a massive sway to the left or right, when the roll rate was similar to the He-111's, and when its level top speed wasn't always what it should have been (or close).

I took her out for a spin a few days ago...I've even been making some missions for it. To me, it feels a bit heavier than it did before...but thats fine because its still just a joy to fly and the 8 .50cal seem to do plenty of damage. My perception is that they do hit with more power so maybe its the situation that you are in thats determining your perception. I do note that the P-47, unlike most other .50cal aircraft, have the guns mounted further out on the wing. So there's more dead areas I find where the bullets are not striking the target (or only one wing is).

Nonetheless...still a bloody impressive plane to me!

chris455
11-16-2004, 09:00 PM
My experience with the Jug in PF mirrors that of Diablo310 exactly.
Slightly less dive acceleration, slightly less E-retention. Zoom climb seems the same or slightly reduced. Overall the changes are so slight as to be nearly unnoticeable.
The .50s remain very potent.

And BTW Fehler, I've dropped Zeros with the propwash of my Jug. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Diablo310th
11-17-2004, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VonHeide:
You better watch out Diabler, Once my 109G10 makes its triumphant reappearance to WC44+ you'll be crying into your keyboard jus' like ole' times!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Enjoy your time with me flying red while you can cuz soon joo boxxxorz will b roxxxzored http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Love
Heide <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Heidie (mispelled on purpose) bring it on. I can't wait to add that G10 to my list of kills AGAIN!!!!! LOL Just little love taps from my 8 .50's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

VFA-195 Snacky
11-18-2004, 10:33 AM
Fly the P38 then go back to the P47 and you will appreciate what you have.lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VF-29_Sandman
11-19-2004, 09:39 AM
he dont have the ballz snacky http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Bearcat99
11-19-2004, 10:25 AM
Well heres a little cheese for that whine.... try it now post 3.01.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I dont think its just me... the Zoom climb is better...... the dive is better..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Willey
11-19-2004, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
The P-47's auxiliary unit was the turbosupercharger. Through a linkage on the throttle quadrant and a control unit on the firewall, the amount of exhaust gas delivered to the turbine was controlled by way of a wastegate. When low power was desired, the wastegate vented off exhaust gas. When more power was needed, more exhaust gas was piped to the turbine. This was all automatic and was dependent on the power desired. Since it was automatic, there is no control for it in PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK it was MANUAL... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

There's even a lever for it on the quadrant in FB, but it's not modelled for control.

SkyChimp
11-19-2004, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:

AFAIK it was MANUAL... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

There's even a lever for it on the quadrant in FB, but it's not modelled for control. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a lever for it. But on all models (except for B/C), the supercharger lever and the throttle, as well as prop pitch, were all linked together and moved as one unit. It was possibble to seperate them and use them individually, but that's not how it was intended.

uhoh7
11-19-2004, 08:28 PM
p-47 seems much improved to me post patch

WWMaxGunz
11-19-2004, 09:36 PM
Chimp? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

This is like the 109 and Kommandogerat, the 109 and auto-pitch?

With those, extra can be achieved at times by de-linking.

We can control P47 pitch seperate and I can't think why to manual the TS....

Copperhead310th
11-20-2004, 05:51 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gifOk Diablo.....JV44...Knock it off.
Save it for the server.

Look. It's like this guys.
i'm not going to pi$$ an moan about fligth models. but i have made the same observations.
for that matter so has our entire squadron.
and the majority of us fly the P-47 almost exclusivly! and have since it arived in the sim.
we have lived & learned from each change. Evert time there's a patch we have to re-learn it all over again.

Now... Noting the above changes. the one thing that sticks out in my mind that seems very WRONG is the new stall. it comes on suddenly & with our warning. this is NOT correct. According to USAAF training video's from WWII (whick can be viewd @ Zeno's) the p-47 is a very forgiveing aircraft. and will always tell you before it begins to stall. you'll feel buffeting right away. this is not sow now.

that's the only NEGATIVE change i can fimd in the P-47 DM. Every thing else seems good with the exception of med Alt. max speed in Lvl flight. that IMO needs to be increased by at least 15 to 20 KPH more than what it is currently capable.
Baring that i find no faults with the Thunderbolt's FM.

Copperhead310th
11-20-2004, 09:01 AM
actuall WWII training film-realplayer required (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/realg2/P-47ARV56.ram)

Ummmm i hate to areguw a point with you Chimp, cuase in all honesty you tend to be very accurate....but after going back and watching this agin for a refreasher course i'm going to dis agree on the Turbosuperchargers being locked in to the throttle assymbly and froced into auto matic. see here:
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47TQ.gif

And now that we have the imperial system has anyone checked the flight perfaomance against these docs?

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47FOIC.gif

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47SEFC.gif

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47TOCL.gif

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47DIVESPINETC.gif

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47GECD.gif

SkyChimp
11-20-2004, 11:36 AM
Copperhead:

As I stated, the levers could be disconnected. That the training video shows them used seperately doesn't mean they couldn't be linked together and used as a single control.

AFAIK, there were several methods used throughout the life of the P-47 to make these functions automatic. Apparently, these ranged from relatively unsophisticated linkages between levers to a sophisticated control unit developed by GE.

Here is what AHT says about it:
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/automatic2.jpg

Here is a schematic of an engine control unit mounted in many P-47s, from "R-2800: Pratt & Whitney's Dependable Masterpiece":
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/automatic.jpg

Copperhead310th
11-20-2004, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Copperhead:

As I stated, the levers could be disconnected. That the training video shows them used seperately doesn't mean they couldn't be linked together and used as a single control.

AFAIK, there were several methods used throughout the life of the P-47 to make these functions automatic. Apparently, these ranged from relatively unsophisticated linkages between levers to a sophisticated control unit developed by GE.

Here is what AHT says about it:
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/automatic2.jpg

Here is a schematic of an engine control unit mounted in many P-47s, from "R-2800: Pratt & Whitney's Dependable Masterpiece":
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/automatic.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but just because it COULD be kinked
together does not nesacaerily mean it SHOULD be
locked in to Automatic. The pilots had the option to use manual engine controls. so should we. look at the instruments & controls in the P-51-D20-NA. they have both MANUEL & AUTOMATIC controls.shouldn't we still have those CEM controls? and what about Feathering the prop? i'm not sure but i'm sure they both could do so.

SkyChimp
11-20-2004, 07:55 PM
Copperhead, I'm sure Oleg modelled the usual method used to control the plane - the automatic method. AFAIK, that was the way it was generally done.

p1ngu666
11-20-2004, 08:54 PM
wouldnt adusting the turbo manualy be a right pain?
ud have a ton of "stages" for a start.
im happy enuff with it automatic tbh

SkyChimp
11-20-2004, 10:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
wouldnt adusting the turbo manualy be a right pain?
ud have a ton of "stages" for a start.
im happy enuff with it automatic tbh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif