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View Full Version : the B-17's FM, dive bomb type landing patterns????



XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 10:06 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned but what is with the "dive bombing" act of the B-17s. Not that they drop their bombs but go into a steep dive and then land or attempt to land. I understand some other a/c (He111, Ju88,...) do this as well.



http://www.f1boat.com/03/images/start.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

Message Edited on 12/10/0308:20AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 10:06 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned but what is with the "dive bombing" act of the B-17s. Not that they drop their bombs but go into a steep dive and then land or attempt to land. I understand some other a/c (He111, Ju88,...) do this as well.



http://www.f1boat.com/03/images/start.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

Message Edited on 12/10/0308:20AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
12-09-2003, 10:53 PM
yes, most annoying, especially when considering that the turrets keep their ''sniper accurate'' precision even when the bombers pilots do that

__________________

THIS is the graph:

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/Luftcaca.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 01:29 AM
Lol, this has nothing to do with the FM, but with the fact that the 17 has no bombsight. Give me the Norden bombsight for my Fortress and guys like me stop doing dive attacks.

And if I really always have the benefits of those snipers you speak of, how come I still get killed sometimes by some smarty fighter guys who think it's a cool move to attack a B-17 slowly from behind?

The B-17 is, unfortunately, not fully modelled, and thus we that fly the Fortress have to adapt our tactics in order to score some hits. And I know you guys don't fly your planes by the book either.

And the gunner problem has been discussed over and over again, I think by now the guys at 1:C know about this. They haven't adressed this issue in 1.21, maybe they'll take care of it in the pay-add-on. If not, they probably don't consider it being as big a problem as some of you fighter jocks think it is.
Either way, enough said.

S!


- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg


Visit us at members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 02:37 AM
Future- wrote:
- Lol, this has nothing to do with the FM, but with
- the fact that the 17 has no bombsight.
-
-

What does a bombsight have to do with an a/c desending in an almost vertical dive when it is going to land?



http://www.f1boat.com/03/images/start.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 04:24 AM
Wait a second, are we talking about offline campaign play or online battles?

If we're talking about online battles, I can only say it's not a matter of the FM either, but the decision of the pilot to land as quickly as possible.

If we're talking about offline campaign, it's also not a problem with the FM, but with the ai pilots controlling it. Seems these fellows still do some crazy stunts... (check the thread about a guy's adventure with his silly 190 wingmate, I think the thread is located in general discussion, or is it here in the ORR? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

S!



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg


Visit us at members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 04:06 PM
bump for this FM 'bug'.

Who else has noticed this behaviour from bombers (and what bombers)?


http://www.f1boat.com/03/images/start.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 04:24 PM
As Oleg has said a number of times on the B17, you need to fly it like a bomber. Even though it has the FM of a fighter you need to control it with many waypoints and lots of distance between waypoints. Maybe 150m increase between waypoints up to 6000m (that's a lot of waypoints). Coming down has been improved by Oleg and crew. You can not come down 300m between waypoints without loosing any aircraft depending on how you got them up there. I create 1 flight and then tag the others onto it with the set command and space them appropriately and it works pretty good.

Sorry, you need lots of waypoints and a gentle altitude increase for it to work.

Regards
Jib01 /i/smilies/16x16_man-happy.gif


"I thought you told me they would break formation if we pressed home a good frontal attack."

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 05:27 PM
Jib, this strange FM behaviour was noticed in the QMB, not FMB, nor online either by me as have not flown with the B-17 there, so coming down has not been improved in QMB. A 70-80* dive from say 4000m into a landing flair is not SOP for bombers./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Jib01 wrote:
- As Oleg has said a number of times on the B17, you
- need to fly it like a bomber. Even though it has
- the FM of a fighter you need to control it with many
- waypoints and lots of distance between waypoints.
- Maybe 150m increase between waypoints up to 6000m
- (that's a lot of waypoints). Coming down has been
- improved by Oleg and crew. You can not come down
- 300m between waypoints without loosing any aircraft
- depending on how you got them up there. I create 1
- flight and then tag the others onto it with the set
- command and space them appropriately and it works
- pretty good.
-
-

..............

Tell me Future, where can I get this fully flyable B-17 with all the gunner positions as well. I want to crawl into that belly turret./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"this has nothing to do with the FM, but with the fact that the 17 has no bombsight. Give me the Norden bombsight for my Fortress and guys like me stop doing dive attacks.

And if I really always have the benefits of those snipers you speak of, how come I still get killed sometimes by some smarty fighter guys who think it's a cool move to attack a B-17 slowly from behind?"


http://www.f1boat.com/03/images/start.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 06:24 PM
Rgr that, I'd take you with me anytime /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ! Unfortunately we would at least need the 17 fully modelled for this, not only the external model as we have it now.

I think a guy named AilantD is working on the interiors for the Fortress. But that will take time. Hopefully, he can complete his work so maybe the Fortress finally becomes fully flyable... and if this happens, look for "380thBG+Future+" in the HL, so we can fly a B-17 coop together! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!


- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg


Visit us at members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 06:43 PM
Yes,I've noticed this as well. I've also noticed B-17s seem to try fighter-like evasive maneuvers when under attack. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to maneuver at all,but sometimes it just gets a little ridiculous....

<center>47|FC <img src="http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg"<

XyZspineZyX
12-10-2003, 06:49 PM
Ah, so you were not talking about flying the B-17 but another bomber./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Thanks for the offer to join your crew Future. The reason I picked the belly turret is because it was the safest postion.



http://www.f1boat.com/03/images/start.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
12-11-2003, 12:22 AM
With the exception of certain external flyable maps for normally AI controlled aircraft, I would also like to say that the procedure which you get a large formation of bombers into and out of the air needs serious reconsideration.

I have only flown offline as yet and the AI needs some real help in the control of the bombers on landing more so than take off.

And for 1:C's consideration I'd like to submit from the Boeing Aircraft Company's Pilot Training Manual for the Flying Fortress the following pages.


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation0.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation1.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation2.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation3.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation4.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation5.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation6.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation7.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~tphadden/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/formation8.jpg



Hopefully this will be something that will be scruttenized in BoB.

I'd also like to see the planes start on their respective hardstands or at least on the taxi ways and not all strung out on the main strip.