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View Full Version : And the Madness Continues



Pirschjaeger
10-03-2006, 06:35 AM
BERLIN - Germany could modify a law that forbids the distribution and display of Nazi symbols after a court fined a man for using crossed-out swastikas to protest far-right extremists, the justice minister was quoted Monday as saying.

The ruling on Friday by a Stuttgart court, which fined 32-year-old Juergen Kamm $4,060 for using the crossed-out symbols on stickers, buttons and T-shirts, has drawn widespread political criticism.

Post-World War II German laws make it illegal to display or reproduce symbols used by the Nazis, except for scientific or educational purposes, and the court said it was upholding a "basic taboo" against them. The defense has said it will appeal.

Lawmakers including the leader of the opposition Greens party, Claudia Roth, have reported themselves to Stuttgart prosecutors for wearing anti-Nazi T-shirts and buttons that include the banned symbols.

"Should the Federal Court of Justice also come to the opinion that our courts demand punishment in these cases, then something is wrong with the law €" and we will change that," Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries was quoted as telling the Tageszeitung daily.

Prosecutors have argued that what happened under Nazi rule was too horrifying to allow for the reproduction of swastikas as any kind of "fashion accessory."

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-03-2006, 06:52 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Extremist lawmakers enforcing a law formed on good intent with the attempt to limit other extremist hate groups ends up litigating against someone who was protesting in the same vein as the original law...go figure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Pirschjaeger
10-03-2006, 07:19 AM
Don't do as I do, do as I say. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Akronnick
10-03-2006, 04:38 PM
Thank God for The First Amendment, Rule #1: Congress shall make no law, etc...

This is why we have it.

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

I think the best way to defeat someone's ridiculous radical idea is to get out of their way and let them show the world how much of an *** they really are. Banning a book or outlawing a symbol just gives the Idiots a legitimate beef that they can use to propogate the rest of there Hogwash.

slo_1_2_3
10-03-2006, 04:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif some people...

KaleunFreddie
10-03-2006, 04:46 PM
We sort of have the same situation here, where some 'diehards' insist on the 'old South Africa', flying the old flags of Apartheid..etc. Everybody just ignores them, or they become the amusement of the day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . they have their say ..then dissapear into the wilderness.

Prosecute them ??? ... to much expense to curtail freedom of speech http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

wayno7777
10-03-2006, 09:36 PM
I was gonna say, "Only in America", but oops http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif....

csThor
10-03-2006, 09:47 PM
... and the day Germany allows the right-wing idiots to march across the streets with the swastika flags it's going to be the same guys who scream bloody murder.

But of course this court rule is the king of nitpicking and I don't think any "ordinary citizen" doesn't shake his head. *shrugs*

LStarosta
10-03-2006, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by KaleunFreddie:
We sort of have the same situation here, where some 'diehards' insist on the 'old South Africa', flying the old flags of Apartheid..etc. Everybody just ignores them, or they become the amusement of the day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . they have their say ..then dissapear into the wilderness.

Prosecute them ??? ... to much expense to curtail freedom of speech http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

In America, they usually put stickers of em on the back of their pick up trucks.

Pirschjaeger
10-03-2006, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by csThor:
... and the day Germany allows the right-wing idiots to march across the streets with the swastika flags it's going to be the same guys who scream bloody murder.

But of course this court rule is the king of nitpicking and I don't think any "ordinary citizen" doesn't shake his head. *shrugs*

I went to Bad Staffelstein for a model boat show. The models were great except for the masking tape put over all the swastikas. This is totally ridiculous.

It's one thing to have a law that prohibits a symbol for commercial use such as party logos, but be fined for showing anti-nazi symbols is something else.

Hasn't anyone figured out that the swastika is attractive because it's forbidden?

Nobody gives a hoot about the General Lee.

Fritz

Treetop64
10-03-2006, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by wayno7777:
I was gonna say, "Only in America", but oops http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif....

Yeah. Easy to say that a lot of silly stuff happens here, but it goes on everywhere.

Saburo_0
10-04-2006, 12:02 AM
The Germans have handled it well I'd say. It's going through the courts and it did help prevent any resurgence of the Nazi party post war.

In Japan on the other hand-criminals wrap themselves in the flag, blast wartime songs and push laws making school kids sing the same old national anthem under the same old flag. Even firing teachers who refuse to do so. All while these "patriotic volunteers" are paid by the mafia and right wing politicians.
Who has better relations with its wartime victims?
Just saying the Germans had alot of history to put behind them, a few silly cases don't mean that the law is ridiculess as some people seem to think. I can see Neo-Nazi's using models as an excuse to display the swastica and their political views. I've seen right wing Japanese drive others away from a genuine interest in WW2 history. If you just want to laugh, ok but maybe sometime see that this is how rule of law works and how laws & societies evolve.

flakwagen
10-04-2006, 01:29 AM
The hilarious irony of anti-nazi laws is simply lost on most continental Europeans. Some of them understand my point when I explain the absurdity of these laws, but most of them get pissed off and fly off the handle like lunatics.

After a few rounds of this, I decided it would be best to leave the topic alone in the future. It's like trying to teach penguins how to fly.

One thing one does have to remember is that a lot of Europeans who went through Hell in WW2 and their close relatives are still alive. Most of them are understandably not able to distinguish between their need for revenge and the need for laws to be consistent.

Flak

FritzGryphon
10-04-2006, 01:48 AM
More incredibly, have the gall to claim that the symbol, scribbled thousands of years ago, and used by Romans, Finns, Hindus, Buddhists, Latvians, N. American indians and conceivably every other civilization and religion, belongs exclusively to Germany's National Socialists, and may be used by no one else.

Almost as if they're retiring the number of a famed athlete.

Pirschjaeger
10-04-2006, 02:44 AM
It's like cutting off one's nose to spite their face.

Neo-Nazis have been around and will be around for a long time, in their various groups. The swastika has little or no relation to it.

I agree that it shouldn't be displayed commercially or politically as a logo, but what's the point of going further?

Fining someone for expressing anti-naziism peacefully is not only a victory for the neo-nazis but also fuel for their movement. One of their arguments is that the current government is incompetent. Well, the proof is there.

Why does an ostrich burying its head in the sand come to mind? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz

Da_Godfatha
10-04-2006, 11:43 AM
Strange Days we have now..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif But then again, if he did not show up in Court looking like a g@y clown, maybe his fine would not have been so high. IMO, the Green Party is WAY more dangerous than any Neo-Nazi party here. They have the "Chicken Little" way of looking at things.

Sad to say, but "Good Old Germany" sometimes goes to extremes. Thank goodness for the good food and beer ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Warrington_Wolf
10-04-2006, 01:04 PM
I agree with you Pirschjaeger, prosecuting people who display the swastika is a waste of time. How long do they plan to keep enforcing that law, until the last of the WW2 veterans are gone or will it still be enforced in 300 years time.

Bloodshed caused by bigotry and prejudice have existed since the dawn of human civilization, unfortunatly it still exists and because humanity doesn't learn it is likely to continue.
Banning a symbol that was used by a regime that persecuted and killed millions is stupid because it won't stop bigotry or hatred, it will only fuel it and drive those people deeper underground.